Women deacons

[Utuna]

Dear all,

I had it in mind since a few months ago but as I was reading the thread (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?571-Leaving-The-Organization&p=42789#post42789) about women being a large army, I decided to ask you the question.

Please read :

"I recommend to YOU Phoe´be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen´chre·ae, that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself." - (Rom16:1-2)

minister = diákonon

Please compare with :

"Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience." - (1Tim3:8-9)

"Women should likewise be serious, not slanderous, moderate in habits, faithful in all things." - (1Tim3:11)

Ministerial servants = diakónous

According to the context, are the women in verse 11 deacons' wives or prospective deaconesses ?


----------------------------------------


Romans 16:1-16

Some friends to greet (vv. 1-16). He began with Phebe, a member of the church at Cenchrea, and the lady who carried the letter to the saints at Rome. Never did a messenger carry a more important letter! Cenchrea was the seaport of Corinth, so Phebe was probably won to Christ during Paul's year and a half of ministry in Corinth. The word "servant" is the feminine of deacon, and some students believe she was a "deaconess" in the church. This is possible, because there were women in the early church who served by visiting the sick, assisting the young women, and helping the poor. Paul confessed that Phebe had been a helper (literally "protectress") of himself and other Christians. And he encouraged the church to care for her.


(from The Bible Exposition Commentary. Copyright © 1989)


PHOEBE

PHOEBE febe [Gk. Phoibe — 'pure, bright, radiant'] (Rom 16:1); AV PHEBE . A Christian woman who had a ministry at the church in Cenchraea (a port city 11 km. [7 mi.] E of Corinth on the Saronic Gulf), known only from Rom 16:1 Paul calls her an adelphe ("sister," indicating that she is a Christian) and a diákonos (RSV "deaconess"; AV "servant"; NEB "who holds office"). Diákonos may be a technical term referring to a fixed office (cf. RSV "deacon," Phil 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8,12), or it may simply refer to services on behalf of the church community (cf. RSV "minister," Eph 3:7; Col 1:7; etc.; "servant," 1 Cor 3:5; 1 Thess 3:2; etc.). That an order of deaconesses existed by the early 2 nd cent. is clear, but the NT nowhere else refers to such an order, except possibly in 1 Tim 3:11. Nevertheless, one should not rule out the possibility that an ecclesiastical office is intended here.


(from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition, Copyright © 1979.)


PHOEBE

The first and one of the foremost of the list of Christians in the last chapter of Romans (Rom 16:1-2). "A servant (Greek 'deaconess') of the church at Cenchrea" (the eastern port of Corinth; where Paul had his head shorn for a vow: Acts 18:18). Pliny's letter to Trajan* ( A.D. 110) shows that deaconesses existed in the Eastern churches. Their duty was to minister to their own sex (1 Tim 3:11 translated "deaconesses" literally, "women"). Phoebe was just going to Rome; Paul therefore commends her to their reception as "in the Lord," i.e. a genuine disciple: as becometh saints to receive saints; and to assist her in whatever she needed their help; for "she had been a succourer (by her money and her efforts) of many and of Paul himself." The female presbytery of widows above sixty is distinct from the deaconesses (1 Tim 5:9-13). Phoebe was the bearer of this epistle, written from the neighbouring Corinth in the spring of A.D. 58.


(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006)


* "They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition."


From here (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html), § 4.


I have no definite opinion nor drawn conclusions about this subject. Please, what do you think of it ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[uglyandthin]

Dear all,

I had it in mind since a few months ago but as I was reading the thread (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?571-Leaving-The-Organization&p=42789#post42789) about women being a large army, I decided to ask you the question.

Please read :

"I recommend to YOU Phoe´be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen´chre·ae, that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself." - (Rom16:1-2)

minister = diákonon

Please compare with :

"Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience." - (1Tim3:8-9)

"Women should likewise be serious, not slanderous, moderate in habits, faithful in all things." - (1Tim3:11)

Ministerial servants = diakónous

According to the context, are the women in verse 11 deacons' wives or prospective deaconesses ?


----------------------------------------


Romans 16:1-16

Some friends to greet (vv. 1-16). He began with Phebe, a member of the church at Cenchrea, and the lady who carried the letter to the saints at Rome. Never did a messenger carry a more important letter! Cenchrea was the seaport of Corinth, so Phebe was probably won to Christ during Paul's year and a half of ministry in Corinth. The word "servant" is the feminine of deacon, and some students believe she was a "deaconess" in the church. This is possible, because there were women in the early church who served by visiting the sick, assisting the young women, and helping the poor. Paul confessed that Phebe had been a helper (literally "protectress") of himself and other Christians. And he encouraged the church to care for her.


(from The Bible Exposition Commentary. Copyright © 1989)


PHOEBE

PHOEBE febe [Gk. Phoibe — 'pure, bright, radiant'] (Rom 16:1); AV PHEBE . A Christian woman who had a ministry at the church in Cenchraea (a port city 11 km. [7 mi.] E of Corinth on the Saronic Gulf), known only from Rom 16:1 Paul calls her an adelphe ("sister," indicating that she is a Christian) and a diákonos (RSV "deaconess"; AV "servant"; NEB "who holds office"). Diákonos may be a technical term referring to a fixed office (cf. RSV "deacon," Phil 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8,12), or it may simply refer to services on behalf of the church community (cf. RSV "minister," Eph 3:7; Col 1:7; etc.; "servant," 1 Cor 3:5; 1 Thess 3:2; etc.). That an order of deaconesses existed by the early 2 nd cent. is clear, but the NT nowhere else refers to such an order, except possibly in 1 Tim 3:11. Nevertheless, one should not rule out the possibility that an ecclesiastical office is intended here.


(from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition, Copyright © 1979.)


PHOEBE

The first and one of the foremost of the list of Christians in the last chapter of Romans (Rom 16:1-2). "A servant (Greek 'deaconess') of the church at Cenchrea" (the eastern port of Corinth; where Paul had his head shorn for a vow: Acts 18:18). Pliny's letter to Trajan* ( A.D. 110) shows that deaconesses existed in the Eastern churches. Their duty was to minister to their own sex (1 Tim 3:11 translated "deaconesses" literally, "women"). Phoebe was just going to Rome; Paul therefore commends her to their reception as "in the Lord," i.e. a genuine disciple: as becometh saints to receive saints; and to assist her in whatever she needed their help; for "she had been a succourer (by her money and her efforts) of many and of Paul himself." The female presbytery of widows above sixty is distinct from the deaconesses (1 Tim 5:9-13). Phoebe was the bearer of this epistle, written from the neighbouring Corinth in the spring of A.D. 58.


(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006)


* "They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition."


From here (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html), § 4.


I have no definite opinion nor drawn conclusions about this subject. Please, what do you think of it ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hi Utuna:

It seems clear to me that the scriptures leave no ambiguity in the role of women "in the congregation". Surely, in God's plan, men have always taken the lead and that women should not teach "in the congregation". However, since the family is structured with the husband as the head of the wife and the wife as a subordinate head over the children, there is much knowledge and wisdom that can be gleaned from our well equipped sisters in the congregations.

Perhaps it is too late to implement it in this system, but in the new one, I think the sisters will take on a much larger role. They do so much now in teaching the younger ones in the congregations on an informal level, I see no reason that this will stop under Kingdom Rule. Sisters are seen fit to be among "Christs Bride" and will rule as Kings in the heavens with Christ, the Head of the Congregations, as his "wife", why would it be outlawed for sisters to fill a similar role here on earth? Actually, I think that sisters will be among those "spirit begotten" ones on earth who will be a part of the earthly part of the Kingdom of God who will act as the symbolic "wife" to the heavenly husband "Kings".

Whatever the case may be, I think that the women among the Kingdom survivors, whether they are part of the administration of the Kingdom or not, will be taking on a greatly expanded role in the Kingdom of God. Just my opinion! We sure could use a full supply of your help girls, to that there is no doubt.

uglyandthin

[Jahsdisciple]

Hi Utuna !
The fact that the 144k are comprised of women and men tells me that there is no differance in their value before Jah. This seems such a silly thing to even have to say ! They have just as much to offer as men. The gift of being in His image is not diminished because man was given it first and she 2nd. Jesus was after Jah in receiving the gift,so its just as valid.

As for"structured with the husband as the head of the wife and the wife as a subordinate " I dont agree with this as being "subordinate " implying somthing inferior,or that she must give in to his demands and her values must be 2nd to his.. Jesus is never said to be this to Jah,yet Jesus knows what Jah wants because they have the same values and follows Jahs lead. But now having immortality,Jesus can be trusted to "take the lead" in rectifying the problems on the earth because he has shown he can be trusted based on his loyalty..not so much to Jehovah(which of course he is),but what VALUES Jah stands for.

Why women are not used in the same way as men in the congregation is something i dont understand. Men in general concentrate on rules and getting things done,yet women in general are focused on relationships and people,which is what the congregation is REALLY about. This is a matter of upbringing and conditioning until we question these "accepted gender rules" . Jesus was not like this..he was people and love focused.

How things are in the congo because of gender rules is a major peeve for me because it limits what everyone can be. Ive never stopped seeing who they are dispite how the congo is run AND this is a reflection of how things are in this system.

The fact that women are part of the 144k and are EQUAL to men will inspire women in the new world to shake of the shakles of controlling men and shake of the shakles of negative sterotypes to reveal their true personality. They will be a model to follow closely revealing their true potential. 'Even' men will learn from the women who are part of the 144k and follow their lead. that will be a major turn around !

And I think it will be a major wonderful shock to see what roles the women in the 144k will have. There will be no 'subordinate' roles..they will be equal to men in every respect. When all have proved they are loyal to Jah and His values,to even imply that a man or woman must be subordniate in any way will seem so immature. yet this is how it is for now.

[Tsaphah]

When looking to the original language of the Greek scriptures, the following words are used in the Christian Greek scriptures.

diakonos = “one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister.” This word comes from the verb dioko = 1. to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away, 2. to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after.

didaskalos = 1. a teacher, 2. in the NT one who teaches concerning the things of God, and the duties of man

didaskalos comes from the primary root, didasko = to teach, to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses.

In his letter to the Romans, Paul uses the word diakonos in reference to Phoebe (Phoibe = Radiant ) in chapter 16. In this particular case, she is a servant, carrying out the mission of delivering the letter to the Romans. But, she is not referred to as (didaskalos), teacher. In verse 3, Paul also mentions Prisca/Priscilla, the wife of Aquilla, as a “fellow worker” (sunergos) but doesn't use the term diakonos. That is because she is not the one carrying the letter.

In Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he mentions that it is inappropriate for a woman to speak in the church/congregation. (1 Co 14:34) Reading the letter to the Corinthians, Paul writes, “As in all the congregations of the holy ones, let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says. If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.” (1 Co 14:33b-35)

Taking this in context of what Paul was speaking of, he was not meaning that women should not speak at all. He was speaking of the role of leadership, or headship. This is also speaking of a role of teacher (didaskalos ) within the congregation. As regards to a different language spoken, prophesy, translating or, interpretation of a message from God , some had the gift and some didn't. If we look at the role of those mentioned as diakonos, they were not teachers or leaders within the church/congregation. They had a secondary role of helpers.

[Utuna]

Dear all,

U&T, JD and "T", thanks a lot for the answers.

When I read for the first time what I wrote down above, I thought that it all gave a pretty good idea of how the first Christians may have been organized and of the kind of tasks that were entrusted to anyone who's spiritual and reliable, sisters included. And I compared it with how JWs are organized today and with the glaring lacunas from which many of our dear b/s have been suffering for years.

From Pliny's letter, it is clear that the word "deaconnesses" is a "title". They were not ministers (diakonos) only but were appointed (litt: called) as such too. I'm not questioning the NWT rendering here because there's no need to it but rather meditating on what the word or title "diakonos" connotes :

As Tsaphah pointed out pertinently, in Paul's letters, the restrictions were about teaching and leadership. Nevertheless, there are countless other activities that could be entrusted to spiritual sisters which would not be related to teaching and leadership and which would be of great help in our organization, especially in congregations where ministerial servants or elders aren't numerous and/or where needy ones are neglected.

The second thing that came to my mind is that it seems that the relief and help provided to the poors, the orphans and the widows (Ja1:27) was something officially organized just as the preaching work was. Brothers AND SISTERS were officially appointed to be there when their suffering b/s needed them the most.

Please read :

"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself." - (James2:14-17)

Here, James is talking about works of faith and the preaching work isn't mentioned. What matters the most is helping first those on the inside who are spiritually and literaly "in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day", not those on the outside through the preaching work. I'm not saying that the preaching work isn't important but rather trying to explain that both activities should be kept at their proper places, without neglecting one in behalf of the other (Ja2:10-13, 1Tim3:5). Hopefully, a great job is already done on local levels through the initiatives of loving b/s but they are personal initiatives and are often not enough. I wonder what the preaching work would be if its worldwide accomplishment would have been left to personal initiatives... and I don't think that the other facets of Christianism should suffer from such a distinction.

For a certainty, our dear sisters are a real blessing and a great help for many, whether it be in the congregations or on this DB.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[panda]

Elders = older men, or those taking the lead

Ministerial servants deaconesses, can be women by what has been said in the Scriptures, that does not mean they take the lead, but do subordinate roles in the congregation, which comprises of certain ministerial duties.

I think the headship arrangement keeps the peace and as their can only be one navigator of the ship it is important that each has a role that honors God, in that sense no appointment is higher or more important than the other.

being imperfect though many have used this arrangement to lord it over one another and to be chauvinistic, which Jesus did not treat women that way he showed how women should be treated as equal in Gods eyes, this is how they should be treated in the congregations, not implying that a person is equal only if they can have the same position, thats worldly not loving.

everything has to be done by arrangement with decency. 1Cor 14:10)

some women may be more spiritually mature than the elders, but that does not mean that they are should be in positions that would usurp the arrangement that was put into place by God and Christ the head of the congregation. The glory of the women is her chasteness and obedience to the arrangement which in Gods eyes is a compliment to man as his helper.

my thoughts.