After thought on Gentile Times

[watchman]

As you all know, the WT teaches that the appointed times of the nations to trample Jerusalem and its temple began in 607 BCE and ended in 1914. However, although the Babylonians destroyed the temple and city, what may be said for the fact that the Persian King, Cyrus, authorized the Jews to return to Palestine and rebuild the city and temple? And when the work was opposed Darius, another Persian king, upheld Cyrus' decree and even made sure that the Jews were funded from the Persian royal treasury.

In view of the fact that Jehovah used the Persian kings to accomplish his work, how can it be said that the nations continued to trample on Jerusalem from 607 onward? Not only that, but the temple was rebuilt by Herod while Jerusalem was under Roman occupation. The nations cannot simultaneously promote and protect Jehovah's property and trample upon it. It just does not add up.

Just more evidence that the WT is reclining on a couch too short and a sheet to narrow.

watchman

[Jinnvisible]

The Watchtower has asserted that due to the fact that Cyrus occupied Babylon without physically destroyiong the city, and ruled from that city for a number of years, that this pre - figures Christ's 1914 enthronement ~ With the continuance of Babylon the Great ~ the empire of false religion.

Hence the WTBTS qualifies that Jesus has conquored BTG and is ruling now whilst BTG is still actually in existance by the fact that Cyrus ruled from that existing city.

Its a real mixed metaphor because their isn`t a real physical building today of what Babylon and Israel represent. They represent metaphysical ideologues true or false.

So its difficult to see in what way Jesus could be said to conquor BTG without destroying it.

My conclusion is that the Bethel scholars believe the existance of Watchtower literature equate with Jesus bringing to nothing the man of lawlessness with his tongue (As prophesied by Paul in Thessalonians) which they equate with christendom.

Thus.

Equating with the demise of the man of lawlessness, as the demise of BTG.

....................Through the magazine literature.

You might consider changing your name to. E-Nuff man

[LonelySheep]

I guess our scholarly brothers would point out that from the time that Jerusalem was destroyed, with it also the Kings.

Eze 21:26 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, 'Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one.
Eze 21:27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one's] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.'


So, they would reason, because the Kingship was destroyed, so was Jerusalem's independence, hence they were being trampled on!! Then of course Jesus came in 1914 with the legal right etc, etc....


SIMPLES!!

BTW - I dont agree with such an interpretation, but I would be interested if anybody could reason against such a line of reasoning.

[truthseeker]

This is the one scripture that I can’t get out of my head, Ezekiel 21: 26-27 it does seam to support the understanding you are imputing from the WT.
It’s hard to get around Watchman’s whip reasoning’s but this one scripture does indicate the right to rule would be removed and then reacquired at Jehovah’s biding.
My thought is that maybe at Jesus baptism and anointing this placing of the turban could have taken place. Or when Jesus successfully gave his life on the stake and uttered “It Has Been Accomplished”
The statement in Ezekiel that says; until he comes who has the legal right.
Might support what I’m saying,

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the fallowing scriptures have an initial fulfillment at Jesus earthly presence.
Ps 2:1-7 Why have the nations been in tumult
And the national groups themselves kept muttering an empty thing?
2 The kings of earth take their stand
And high officials themselves have massed together as one
Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,
3 [Saying:] “Let us tear their bands apart
And cast their cords away from us!”
4 The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh;
Jehovah himself will hold them in derision.
5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger
And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them,
6 [Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king
Upon Zion, my holy mountain.”
7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah;
He has said to me: “You are my son;
I, today, I have become your father.

I’m no bible scholar; I’m doing good if I remember my phone number or remember to do spell check. But I have always loved bible truth and my most treasured desire is to see Jehovah vindicated whether I live or not, that’s not important!

[Jahsdisciple]

As you all know, the WT teaches that the appointed times of the nations to trample Jerusalem and its temple began in 607 BCE and ended in 1914. However, although the Babylonians destroyed the temple and city, what may be said for the fact that the Persian King, Cyrus, authorized the Jews to return to Palestine and rebuild the city and temple? And when the work was opposed Darius, another Persian king, upheld Cyrus' decree and even made sure that the Jews were funded from the Persian royal treasury.

In view of the fact that Jehovah used the Persian kings to accomplish his work, how can it be said that the nations continued to trample on Jerusalem from 607 onward? Not only that, but the temple was rebuilt by Herod while Jerusalem was under Roman occupation. The nations cannot simultaneously promote and protect Jehovah's property and trample upon it. It just does not add up.

Just more evidence that the WT is reclining on a couch too short and a sheet to narrow.

watchman

Hi Watchman
So What are the "7 times" really about then ? whats the application of them ? You also mention in another thread that the some will not let go of their control and would rather scorch the earth rather than let go their power. What scriptures are proof of this ? Thanks.JD.

[FutureMan]

I guess our scholarly brothers would point out that from the time that Jerusalem was destroyed, with it also the Kings.

Eze 21:26 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, 'Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one.
Eze 21:27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one's] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give to him.'


So, they would reason, because the Kingship was destroyed, so was Jerusalem's independence, hence they were being trampled on!! Then of course Jesus came in 1914 with the legal right etc, etc....


SIMPLES!!

BTW - I dont agree with such an interpretation, but I would be interested if anybody could reason against such a line of reasoning.



(Revelation 8) [LITV]
12 And the fourth angel trumpeted. And the third [I] part of the sun, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars, was struck, that the third part of them might be darkened, and the third part of the day might not appear; and in the same way the night.
13 And I saw, and I heard one angel flying in mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to trumpet!

Revelation 11 [LITV]
1 And a reed like a staff was given to me, and the angel stood, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those worshiping in it.
2 And cast aside the outside court of the temple, and do not measure it. For it was given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city forty two months.
3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.

(Revelation 12) [LITV]
12 Because of this, be glad, the heavens and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil came down to you having great anger, knowing that he has a little time!
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman who bore the male.
14 And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent's face.

[Jinnvisible]

Hi LonelySheep.

I had a conversation with an elder, he put this exact case that you stated.


I guess our scholarly brothers would point out that from the time that
Jerusalem was destroyed, with it also the Kings.

Eze 21:26 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, 'Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one.

Eze 21:27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one's] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.'

So, they would reason, because the Kingship was destroyed, so was Jerusalem's independence, hence they were being trampled on!! Then of course Jesus came in 1914 with the legal right etc, etc....

SIMPLES!!

BTW - I don’t agree with such an interpretation, but I would be interested if anybody could reason against such a line of reasoning.


Incidentally the elder seemed to think it was laughable that this interpretation could even be open to question. Although he’s a nice guy.

After some consideration I felt there were some inconsistencies in this scenario. Keeping in mind that this area of prophesy is not a strong point for me, timelines ECT.

1) The trampling of the “Holy Place” during the gentile times.

The designation “Holy Place” as I recognize it has nearly always referred to the temple or the tabernacle or the mountain of Sinai when Jehovah descended upon it.

Jerusalem is referred to as different things in scripture such as ‘the City of David’ or even ‘Harlot’ by Jesus.

I don’t have a visceral memory of Jerusalem being distinctly called the ‘Holy Place’ it may be referred to as the ‘Holy city’ I’m not certain.

So the kings who ruled Jerusalem were definitely not always synonymous with holiness were they? Most of them certainly were not holy. So how does the lack of kingship in Jerusalem equate with trampling the holy place ?

It seems to me that if the trampling referred to Jerusalem as a whole it would be called by a more distinct designation such as ‘Holy city’ rather than ‘Holy place’

So although we can see that Jehovah has [in those Ezekiel scriptures] committed to ‘wait on Jesus’ for Kingship, is that necessarily connected to the gentile times or is it completely separate?

2) The trampling of ‘the places’

The gentile times under the official watchtower interpretation covers a period when the temple in Jerusalem ceases to be the holy place. The ‘holy place’ becomes something more metaphysical as Paul stated the ‘Jerusalem above’.

It could be said to be the anointed congregation how Paul described as temple pillars.

Anyway you look at it the ‘trampling’ under the current official timespan of the gentile times sees the ‘holy place’ actually change designation.

It is possible as Israel changed designation from genetic to spiritual. It becomes a question of stringency though because it seems a very specific prophesy.

3) Judges

There was a period of time when Israel was established under Joshua when Israel did not have a king. We can remember the people petitioned Samuel for one.

Jehovah told Samuel that this petition was a rejection of Jah’s sovereignty.

It’s possible that Jehovah would have given them a king in his own designated time.

However Israel had been overseen by Judges. During this period Israel had not yet seen Kings, it had a city called Jerusalem but no temple.

So why is this period not considered an earlier ‘time of the gentiles‘ ? If the holy place is thought to be Jerusalem, yet not specifically the temple ?

There is no king ruling. Israel is established. These are the precepts that the WTBTS uses to define the gentiles times.

Hence it seems that their was another one, earlier on.

4) Cyrus (Not Billy Rae or Miley)

King Cyrus restored the Jews to Jerusalem from exile in Babylon and sponsored the rebuilding of the temple. He also returned the utensils of the temple and did the right thing all round with regard to Jehovah worship.

Under the WTBTS position Cyrus has to be included as one of the national sovereigns who is trampling on Jerusalem !

Due to the fact that he was a foreign king involving himself in the matters of Israel during what the WT defines as the ‘Designated time of the Gentiles’.

This seems about as likely as his name actually being Billy Rae.

So in summery I really don’t understand any of this stuff and can’t even summarize. In fact I can only look at the reasoning of others and attempt to ascertain their merits.

What I have to do though is put what seems like truth and reasonability first.

I cannot be to concerned about the Watchtower bible and tract society’s Achey Breaky public profile.

[LonelySheep]

Hi Jinnvisible

What a fantastic reply. I think you do yourself a dis-service when you say you don't have a good grasp of things prophetically!!

I was speaking to another brother who also takes what the Society says in areas of prophecy with a pinch of salt and his reply was nearly word for word what you said. I must commend you for putting your thoughts down in such a clear and concise manner.

The line of reasoning that you came up was excellent which I believe gives a good reply to the fallacious reasoning that I presented as a likely response from the Watchtower to e-Watchman's initial comment.

Thank you. :D:)

[watchman]

The Watchtower has asserted that due to the fact that Cyrus occupied Babylon without physically destroyiong the city, and ruled from that city for a number of years, that this pre - figures Christ's 1914 enthronement ~ With the continuance of Babylon the Great ~ the empire of false religion.

Hence the WTBTS qualifies that Jesus has conquored BTG and is ruling now whilst BTG is still actually in existance by the fact that Cyrus ruled from that existing city.

Its a real mixed metaphor because their isn`t a real physical building today of what Babylon and Israel represent. They represent metaphysical ideologues true or false.

So its difficult to see in what way Jesus could be said to conquor BTG without destroying it.

My conclusion is that the Bethel scholars believe the existance of Watchtower literature equate with Jesus bringing to nothing the man of lawlessness with his tongue (As prophesied by Paul in Thessalonians) which they equate with christendom.

Thus.

Equating with the demise of the man of lawlessness, as the demise of BTG.

....................Through the magazine literature.

You might consider changing your name to. E-Nuff man

"E-nuff man" ---- I like it!

The thing is, though, none of that stuff you mentioned has anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus described as the appointed times of the nations to trample Jerusalem.

[Gilligan]

The thing is, though, none of that stuff you mentioned has anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus described as the appointed times of the nations to trample Jerusalem.


,,,(Owww),,,,

[Jinnvisible]

"E-nuff man" ---- I like it!

The thing is, though, none of that stuff you mentioned has anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus described as the appointed times of the nations to trample Jerusalem.

Do you think that could be a sticking point ?

[watchman]

Do you think that could be a sticking point ?

Uh, yeah. I think Jehovah's Witnesses are already stuck.

[Jahsdisciple]

Uh, yeah. I think Jehovah's Witnesses are already stuck.

So What are the "7 times" really about then ? whats the application of them ?

[Anthony]

So What are the "7 times" really about then ? whats the application of them ?

16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it.

25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.

The seven times had application to Nebuchadnezzar, and they proved to be seven years. There is nothing nowhere to say that the seven times has a future second fulfillment, and if by chance we come to learn that they do have a dual fulfillment, it should prove to be seven years as well and not the day for the year BS, that’s used when it is convenient to those that want to twist the scriptures to meet their needs.

[Jinnvisible]

One of the things,

The Trinity in itself seems such a simple idea. Yet when you speak to people who believe it, and attempt to dispel it, it can get complicated to an extent that is difficult to understand. Ultimately it depends on how reasonable a person is.

The Gentile Times / 1914 doctrine isn’t simple, even in its inception.

For instance I spoke to a loyal long serving cong. member (25 yrs + loyal, formal service) about the gentile times. I asked for their simplest explanation. They told me that they believed the Gentile times was…

‘ the time from when Jesus allowed the Gentiles into a covenant, up until now. ‘

It wasn’t even something they connected with 1914. This person is not an idiot, a good friend and a faithful person. Yet they were obviously giving their impression of what they thought it meant.

Perhaps it being a peculiarity of my circumstance, I never really had a strong belief in the 1914 doctrine, yet I couldn’t see it for being false either with regard to the presence of Christ.

As a false doctrine it is so expansive when compared to the tiny trinity puzzle.

If satan influenced the invention of the trinity for the easily swayed then he invented the 1914 for the not so easily fooled. Its hard core, ‘class A’ false doctrine.

How does the realization occur for those who once strongly believed it? Surely it is a relatively slow process of unraveling.

If you once believed it fairly strongly and changed how fast did it happen ?

I think one of the strongest observations is Christ upon the mountain. The scriptures report that Christ took a few apostles to witness ‘the power of his presence’.

Literally so they would not be swayed by false stories.

2 Peter 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted you with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence

Peter actually saw Christ on the mountain. So why is he acquainting others as to this glorious event ? Because they don’t have movies and they want special FX ?

Christ also said that he is present at any gathering of his followers. Yet all including the WTBTS understand the ‘second coming’ aspect to be distinct.

If anyone does have the experience of coming to disbelieve the 1914 enthronement story very quickly [, yet kept their faith] and is able to speak about that I’d be very grateful to hear about it.

It difficult to imagine that it is something that could happen quickly, although I guess it will.

[Tsaphah]

Reply to Jahsdisciple:
On your question about the 7 times, the jest of it is in the last portion of Dan 4:25. “...until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.” This was directly spoken to Nebuchadnezzar. The WTB&TS view of this scripture is applied to the Gentile Times starting in 607 B.C.E., and running for 2,520 years (7 times = 1 day for 1 year = 2,520 years) to 1914 C.E. Unfortunately, Ray Franz and others couldn't make that fit with the date given by “bible scholars and experts” in the field of archeology, who used 586 B.C.E., as the date of the destruction of the temple by the Babylonians. I have yet to find any concrete evidence as to the use of 586, in ancient documents that have been discovered. Several "scholars" use other dates and can't agree with 586. To them it's only an issue of prestige. So, by starting with 1914 and going backwards, they came up with 607 B.C.E. They also state that when prophesy is speaking of punishment, it is a day for a year. They use this time for the “trampling by the nations” or “Gentile times”. Franz now states the he never agreed to the 607 date.

As Anthony said, “There is nothing nowhere to say that the seven times has a future second fulfillment.”It only applies to the judgment of Nebuchadnezzar.

Reply to Jinnvisble:
No, it didn't come instantly, but over time with further study. There have been many misapplications to the prophesies. There have also been several “end times” that have been fulfilled concerning Jehovah's “people” whether Jews or Christians. The “time of the end” which we are concerned with, is yet to come. I have used your example of the “transfiguration of Christ” many times to explain the point you make. Also, how did Peter, James, and John know that Jesus was talking to Moses and Elijah, seeing that they didn't have FX? They didn't even have photographs or oil paintings! How did they recognize and know who they were?

Tsaphah

[Tsaphah]

I have to correct a word that I used in the opening comment. I used "jest" in a wrong way. I should have used "essence, main point, or real issue", instead.

Tsaphah

[Jinnvisible]

Thanks Tsaphah.

Even when Peter discovered who it was Jesus was conversing with he wanted to build him a shelter.

I guess it was apparent somehow who they were, perhaps Jesus greeted them by name. Or may have been made clear by what they were discussing.

We can also take note that Peter was the one who identified Jesus as the Christ and the lord stated that
it must have been revealed to him from above. Hence Peter may have also had it revealed to him from above who was conversing.

.............................

It is the e-nuffman who really identified the Peter scripture and the presence as being contrary to the invisible return.

I think this is a difficult one even for those who feel the WTBTS has gone astray. Its something that watchman is very certain about. I'm not good with timespans bible mathematics. Although I feel sure that Christ has yet to take up his soveriegnty and I don`t feel i need math for that.

it was something they always were pushing him to do when he walked the earth. Close freinds and others. He had to hide from people trying to make him king, then he was welcomed with a king's welcome into Jerusalem by the people. Then his closest beloved friends popped the question 'are you going to restore the Kingdom'. Then the WTBTS tried to make him King in 1914.

With this level of enthuisiasm, we might at least conclude, they've got the right man for the job.

[truthseeker]

Thanks Tsaphah.

Even when Peter discovered who it was Jesus was conversing with he wanted to build him a shelter.

I guess it was apparent somehow who they were, perhaps Jesus greeted them by name. Or may have been made clear by what they were discussing.

We can also take note that Peter was the one who identified Jesus as the Christ and the lord stated that
it must have been revealed to him from above. Hence Peter may have also had it revealed to him from above who was conversing.

.............................

It is the e-nuffman who really identified the Peter scripture and the presence as being contrary to the invisible return.

I think this is a difficult one even for those who feel the WTBTS has gone astray. Its something that watchman is very certain about. I'm not good with timespans bible mathematics. Although I feel sure that Christ has yet to take up his soveriegnty and I don`t feel i need math for that.

it was something they always were pushing him to do when he walked the earth. Close freinds and others. He had to hide from people trying to make him king, then he was welcomed with a king's welcome into Jerusalem by the people. Then his closest beloved friends popped the question 'are you going to restore the Kingdom'. Then the WTBTS tried to make him King in 1914.

With this level of enthuisiasm, we might at least conclude, they've got the right man for the job.

LOL. You do have a way of putting a smile on my face Jinn!:D

[Jahsdisciple]

Reply to Jahsdisciple:
On your question about the 7 times, the jest of it is in the last portion of Dan 4:25. “...until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.” This was directly spoken to Nebuchadnezzar. The WTB&TS view of this scripture is applied to the Gentile Times starting in 607 B.C.E., and running for 2,520 years (7 times = 1 day for 1 year = 2,520 years) to 1914 C.E. Unfortunately, Ray Franz and others couldn't make that fit with the date given by “bible scholars and experts” in the field of archeology, who used 586 B.C.E., as the date of the destruction of the temple by the Babylonians. I have yet to find any concrete evidence as to the use of 586, in ancient documents that have been discovered. Several "scholars" use other dates and can't agree with 586. To them it's only an issue of prestige. So, by starting with 1914 and going backwards, they came up with 607 B.C.E. They also state that when prophesy is speaking of punishment, it is a day for a year. They use this time for the “trampling by the nations” or “Gentile times”. Franz now states the he never agreed to the 607 date.

As Anthony said, “There is nothing nowhere to say that the seven times has a future second fulfillment.”It only applies to the judgment of Nebuchadnezzar.



Tsaphah
Tsaphah,
no i didnt take "jest' the wrong way at all !

I guess I ask about the real meaning because i still have lingering ties to the "1914 concept". I NEVER had problems explaining or seeing it as plausable. BUT..it was never the centre of my reason for being a JW. there were far more important things !

So,when i ask about the application of 1914,looking back,I see Im asking:If it doesnt apply to 1914,what time does it ? What year did Jesus start ruling since there was no other WWI that seems to match. What SEEMS to kill the 1914 is that the " generation" explanations seem to keep changing. Either we are in the GT which comes after Jesus being King..OR NOT! How long with the "GT" continue...if it has begun ?

This is why Im leaning towards the 42 months as the time of the end as it makes so much more sence. BUT as ive stated:1914 was never the centre of my attention and neither will the 42 months..there are far more important things to consider.

I dont think Jah really goes into so much detail because then we wouldnt live in the moment. I think He also allows such wrong notions to continue because He can use it. Look at what has happened with those who really want to know about Jah..what other org has directed as much attention to JEHOVAH as JWs ? None.

And just as 1914 was never the centre of my attention..i can honestly say that of all the "balanced JWs" Ive met,it wasnt theres either. In fact most arent obsessed about it,though we are looking forward to the end comming and we get a bit keen for it to end. When most have health,family,money problems who can blame us for wanting it all to end and live in the perfect world we were meant to ? JD

[noname]

And just as 1914 was never the centre of my attention..i can honestly say that of all the "balanced JWs" Ive met,it wasnt theres either. In fact most arent obsessed about it,Its obvious that you haven't met my mother.


it was something they always were pushing him to do when he walked the earth. Close freinds and others. He had to hide from people trying to make him kingThats a really good point.

For the WT to crown an invisible person king, all the credit would go to the WT. Not that it would be in a diabolical manor. But the WT could brag about themselves. If a real manifestation that we could see not through stories was beheld then all would look directly to Christ instead of through a organization. Food is to be eaten not to be worshiped.

I also want to say that for me, maybe because im a young man from the hill country of Texas, raised around scorpions, tarantulas and rattlesnakes that it was rather quick that I unraveled the 1914 doctrine ( when I discovered one of the essays from watchman about 5 years ago). Of coarse I didnt sleep for a few days in total disbelief, reading and researching the bible. But anyway in the end I found that everything finally made sense and I felt closer to the truth then ever before. But then again i have always questioned everything my entire life, have always kept an opened mind and have been in a constant search for truth in general.

[SlaveForJah]

I have to correct a word that I used in the opening comment. I used "jest" in a wrong way. I should have used "essence, main point, or real issue", instead.

Tsaphah


Howdy T,

I think you were looking for "gist".

gist

  http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/G01/G0168900) /dʒɪst/ http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled[jist] http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–noun1.the main or essential part of a matter: What was the gist of his speech?

2.the ground of a legal action.



Use gist in a Sentence (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=Use+gist+in+a+Sentence&qsrc=2892&o=101993)

See images of gist (http://ask.reference.com/pictures?q=gist&o=102285)

Search gist on the Web (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=gist&o=102284)

Origin:
1720–30; < AF (cest action) gist (this matter) lies, 3rd sing. pres. indic. of AF, OF gesir to lie ≪ L jacēre

—Can be confused: gist, jest (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jest), just (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/just).

—Synonyms
1. essence, point, substance, burden, kernel, import.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Jinnvisible]

Mums the word, Noname.


i still have lingering ties to the "1914 concept". I NEVER had problems explaining or seeing it as plausable. BUT..it was never the centre of my reason for being a JW. there were far more important things !


I think you are not alone, even on this board, I suspect to quite an extent.

I applaud your honesty and you have a positive practical outlook on this.

I feel certain that the implications of a false invisible presence also has far reaching invisible consequences. What i mean by that is consiquences that are not always apparent.

In essence the organisation has taken upon itself the authority of Christ.

If kingdom rulership has not begun, and you say it has, then you have put something in place of Christ.

This is why the apostle stressed the importance of not having a false Parusia. If it was of no consiquence he wouldn`t have bothered.

The effect of a false parusia would effect the entire `culture of worship`. It could start attracting the wrong kind of people into the congregation and stumbling or putting off the right kind of people.

I think it is vital that peole don`t allow themselves to be stumbled.

Its got to mean that thier is going to be XXL trouble. Its like you got a true worship and something that looks identical that is satanism.

[Juan23]

And just as 1914 was never the centre of my attention..i can honestly say that of all the "balanced JWs" Ive met,it wasnt theres either. In fact most arent obsessed about it,though we are looking forward to the end comming and we get a bit keen for it to end. When most have health,family,money problems who can blame us for wanting it all to end and live in the perfect world we were meant to ? JD

I did not think about 1914 very much. When I became a Witness there so many things true that I accepted whatever I was told although by nature I'm quite cynical.

However there was time when I did have to think about 1914 very deeply. At my JC I was asked if I believe in 1914. I've already read eW at the time and so to keep from lying I kept quite. I was then told, "By your silence you have rejected a core belief of Jehovah's Witnesses therefore you are an apostate!". To make a long tale short I was dfed.So if I am asked the same question again, what would my answer be? Same as before - Silence.

[Utuna]

Dear Jinn,

You said :


I think this is a difficult one even for those who feel the WTBTS has gone astray. Its something that watchman is very certain about. I'm not good with timespans bible mathematics. Although I feel sure that Christ has yet to take up his soveriegnty and I don`t feel i need math for that.I'm really rubbish at math but I've understood something anyway : Christ and his 144 000 "twin" brothers must reign during 1 000 years. If Jesus was enthroned in 1914, it means that many anointed ones will never reign the duration that God promised in the Bible, unless they keep reigning after Jesus will have surrendered his power back to his Father so that they may catch up the time, which is a pure nonsense.

On one hand, we have what the WT teaches and on the other hand, we have the reality. Now, spot the difference !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SlaveForJah]

I feel certain that the implications of a false invisible presence also has far reaching invisible consequences. What i mean by that is consiquences that are not always apparent.

In essence the organisation has taken upon itself the authority of Christ.

If kingdom rulership has not begun, and you say it has, then you have put something in place of Christ.

This is why the apostle stressed the importance of not having a false Parusia. If it was of no consiquence he wouldn`t have bothered.

The effect of a false parusia would effect the entire `culture of worship`. It could start attracting the wrong kind of people into the congregation and stumbling or putting off the right kind of people.

I think it is vital that peole don`t allow themselves to be stumbled.

Its got to mean that thier is going to be XXL trouble. Its like you got a true worship and something that looks identical that is satanism.

This is what Paul addressed in his 2nd letter to Timothy.

"15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright. 16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·nae´us and Phi·le´tus are of that number. 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some." - 2Timothy 2:15-18

Paul here makes it quite clear that "saying the resurrection has already occured" would have dire consequences to the church. It would advance ungodliness and subvert the faith of some. The 1914 doctrine and its attendant 1918 and 1919 doctrines of self-inspection and the trickle-into-heaven resurrection are called here "empty speeches that violate what is holy."

Paul and John also tell us when the resurrection will be, "the last trumpet", the 7th, which would segue way directly into the 1000 year reign of the risen "dead in Christ", coinciding with the binding of Satan. Clearly, not only has Satan not been bound, neither have the "dead in Christ" risen to the call of the Archangel's voice, nor has the 7th trumpet sounded. Therefore, neither has the resurrection taken place. Thus, the WT's 1914 era doctrines violate what is holy.

Any wonder Watchman refers to 1914 as the "operation of error"?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Gilligan]

October 1975, dusk is happening during the Tuesday night Book Study.
Everybody is in a subdued state but frantic with fear inside because of the onset of Armagheddon (as relayed to the entire congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses).
The study is over, it is dark outside, we are looking northwads to the mountains and see a hellish red fireball passing over them.
That's it! Game over man!

[Jahsdisciple]

However there was time when I did have to think about 1914 very deeply. At my JC I was asked if I believe in 1914. I've already read eW at the time and so to keep from lying I kept quite. I was then told, "By your silence you have rejected a core belief of Jehovah's Witnesses therefore you are an apostate!". To make a long tale short I was dfed.So if I am asked the same question again, what would my answer be? Same as before - Silence.

That must have been terrible to sit there and hear that knowing you still loved Jah ! Just because you have doubts about ONE thing doesnt make you apostate. Ive been called that also...and my reply was "you better get your definitions and understanding of such a word right before using such words to me !" It stung like a jab with a knife.

[SlaveForJah]

That must have been terrible to sit there and hear that knowing you still loved Jah ! Just because you have doubts about ONE thing doesnt make you apostate. Ive been called that also...and my reply was "you better get your definitions and understanding of such a word right before using such words to me !" It stung like a jab with a knife.

Try having your mother call you an apostate, to your face. Woohoo!!! Fun times. And for what? For looking to the Scriptures with more authority than the publications. These words of our Lord came to mind:

"32 “Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens; 33 but whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. 34 Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. 37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it." - Matthew 10:32-39



Agape

SlaveForJah

[Utuna]

That must have been terrible to sit there and hear that knowing you still loved Jah ! Just because you have doubts about ONE thing doesnt make you apostate. Ive been called that also...and my reply was "you better get your definitions and understanding of such a word right before using such words to me !" It stung like a jab with a knife.

Dear JD,

You're right ! The more they mistakenly use that word, the more it loses its genuine meaning. Nowadays, anyone having the least doubt can be labelled as apostate, often because the elders don't feel like being bothered by any prospective freethinkers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Anthony]

Well this seems to be a good place to share something that just happen as recent as Jan of this year. The following is an email that took place after a phone call to my wife after a visit with her brother that happens to be an elder. He had called his sister to see if she was of the same understandings as me, then he emailed me to explain why. Then I addressed parts of his email and sent him a response back with what I had already put together based on the phone call to my wife. I am only going to share a little where as I said so much. This of course is going to have the domino effect being her brother and an elder…his thoughts will spread and be shared to other brothers and sisters and parents and friends…and since they are all hard-core WTS people…we all know how it will end up. So be it!!!!


Email
Name deleted (his wife) and I were speaking on Sunday on the way to the meeting. (Right after seeing you guys.) We were saying how we did enjoy seeing you guys. The conversation turned to what your beliefs are, as I understand them. Namely, you believe that Jehovah is using Jehovah's Witnesses, but also that Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of organizational idolatry, that you have a problem with tying in being one of "Jehovah's Witnesses" with getting baptized, and that we are living in the last days, but 1914 is a wrong teaching and the subsequent feelings on the teachingof the generation.Those are the ones I summed up.

Name deleted (his wife) comment was basically something like this, 'So, the only reason he is not labeled an apostate is because he is not baptized.’ Well, I suppose that is true. At that, we knew we would have to do something, but we decided to put any decisions 'on hold' for a while.


My response on this topic from his email.
labeled an apostate(Apostate- a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.) According to the definition all that came out from other religions and became JW’s are apostates. In this case it’s fine because they are forsaking or turning away from what is false to what is suppose to be true. One never wants to turn away or forsake Jehovah and his son. And yet to know Jehovah and Jesus one would know that he has a people for his name, a people trying to teach and follow his ways. So knowing this, one would not want to turn away or forsake these ones as well. But as in the case above one turning away from what is false to follow truth is a forsaking or apostasy that is expected. So when is the line ever drawn that you stop doing so, and that is turning away from false hood? What just blows my mind is the fact that I adhere to what is brought out inblue through out all 1-5 attachments, not forsaking or turning away from such counsel, and at the same time I turn away from what is brought out in red through out all 1-5 attachments, and yet the blue WTS excerpts are always in harmony with the bible and red excerpts are not, and blue and red WTS excerpts are not in harmony with each other. In fact red and redexcerpts are not always in harmony with one another.(At least call me a Heretic! Heresy is the rejection of certain doctrines, not the complete abandonment of one's religion. Heretics claim to still be following a religion or even to be "true believers", whereas apostates reject it entirely.Being facetious of course!)

Part of my main email response from phone call.
Say and think what you will about me, but I didn’t write the bible or any of the WT articles but I take the time to read and study both, doing so with the spirit and motive from the excerpts that are in blue, but yet in doing so you say I have an evil spirit to me because of the points I bring out as a result.Of the many blue excerpts that I am following the counsel of, for which one of these do you condemn me for? (John 10:31) I suppose thou that I should take that you said I have an evil spirit to me as a compliment, knowing that they said that about our great teacher. (John 10:20)

The obvious reason you do so is because the very spirit that you are demonstrating is that of the red excerpts.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine,
1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God
Acts 17:11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so

Proclaimers Chapter 28 – He (Brother Russell) urged others to check his writings carefully against God’s inspired Word so that they would be satisfied that what they were learning was in full harmony with it. To one who wrote a letter of inquiry, Brother Russell replied: “If it was proper for the early Christians to prove what they received from the apostles, who were and who claimed to be inspired, how much more important it is that you fully satisfy yourself that these teachings keep closely within their outline instructions and those of our Lord; —since their author claims no inspiration, but merely the guidance of the Lord, as one used of him in feeding his flock.”

The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life 1968 Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God's Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.

8-15-50 WT Name and Purpose of The Watchtower
The Watchtower invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures.

(Watchtower January 15, 1974 Can You Be True to God, Yet Hide the Facts? When persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends,is it an unkindness to warn them? They may prefer not to believe the warning. They may even resent it. But does that free one from the moral responsibility to give that warning? If you are among those seeking to be faithful to God, the issues these questions raise are vital for you today.)

Awake! November 22, 1984 An Open or a Closed Mind
What Is an Open Mind?
It means being willing to examine and to evaluate information without a biased attitude. By retaining what is worthwhile and rejecting what is worthless

11-15-09 WT"By word or action may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today. On the contrary we should cherish the privilege to cooperate with the slave class"

8-1-01 WT "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave.

2-15-09 WT "Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?"

6-1-67 WT, We may think of study as hard work, as involving heavy research. But in Jehovah’s organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to do that very thing, to help you who do not have so much time for this, these preparing the good material in The Watchtower and other publications of the Society. But you do not study enough? Take this suggestion: Often the very best and most beneficial studying you do is that done when you read a new Watchtower or Awake! or a new book with the joy of getting the new truths and a fresh view.

[Jahsdisciple]

Dear JD,

You're right ! The more they mistakenly use that word, the more it loses its genuine meaning. Nowadays, anyone having the least doubt can be labelled as apostate, often because the elders don't feel like being bothered by any prospective freethinkers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hi Utuna,
If one is TRULLY apostate,then one should be DFed,but no-one should be DFed because they have doubts and still feel they are dedicated to Jah.

What they are really saying by using it is:you shouldnt think outside what the FDS/WT thinks. This is blind faith and is not dedication to Jah as what He says is true."though every man a liar proves to be" deliberate or not.

We really have to be careful as to who we share our thoughts with. Some just cant grasp why we want to challenge and they are ruled by fear...this is why they react the way they do,not just because they are fanatics. Its complicated for sure.

[Tsaphah]

Hooray for you Anthony! You have presented your thoughts in a well structured way. That still will not effect the hard headed and hard hearted minds of the modern day Pharisees. This is especially true when they have made themselves the “faithful slave.”

To them, “the scriptures be damned.” They have become the same as Babylon the Great, without seeing it. They have become blind guides. It reminds me of the witch in Cinderella as she looks into the mirror, “Mirror, mirror on the wall, Who’s the fairest of them all.” Continue to study God’s word daily. Pray for Jehovah’s help, and as Paul said to the Thessalonians, “Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.” (1 Thes 5:21)

Also remember what Paul wrote to Timothy, “In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:12-17)

When he says, “All scripture”, he is speaking of God’s word, and not other writings such as the Watchtower publications. And notice who he says to be in association with. That is the main thing, and not what any man says.

Agapé,
Tsaphah

[Juan23]

That must have been terrible to sit there and hear that knowing you still loved Jah ! Just because you have doubts about ONE thing doesnt make you apostate. Ive been called that also...and my reply was "you better get your definitions and understanding of such a word right before using such words to me !" It stung like a jab with a knife.

I think I can say I don't doubt ONE thing. I no longer believe Jesus became king in 1914. I no longer believe we are in spiritual paradise and in a few other things we have discussed in this forum. I don't discuss these things with the brothers (I have been reinstateted) because I will just disturb them. The time will come when I can freely talk with them. I believe that time is near.

[Jahsdisciple]

Try having your mother call you an apostate, to your face. Woohoo!!! Fun times. And for what? For looking to the Scriptures with more authority than the publications. These words of our Lord came to mind:

"32 “Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens; 33 but whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. 34 Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. 37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it." - Matthew 10:32-39



Agape

SlaveForJah

Hi SlaveForJah,
Im sorry that happened to you ! Man,that must have hurt. A lot of this type of nonsence comes from fear. This is my observation anyway. Most who react like this are too scared to think outside the box. Some have done things in their non-JW which they cant forgive themslves for...so its just best for them to stay loyal to th WTS no matter what,that way life will be safer than trusting themselves...look what happened when they did in their former life. So I hope you didnt take it to heart,though when your own parent says silly things like this,you think about it for about 10 seconds and then try to put it out of your head. JD.

[Jinnvisible]

Well this seems to be a good place to share something that just happen as recent as Jan of this year.

Thanks.

Its a long haul. The fact is many of Jehovahs Witnesses will never let go of the pride that comes with
being right.

Its going to have to be torn away and they will either let go or go with it. Yet there are reasonable ones in the congregations. Alot will only be atmitted to once trust is gained which is a tough thing to garner when you are [in someone elses mind] taking and adversarial position.

You cant even change the subject an talk about the weather now without it being a controversy.

Its a nice day. eeerrrrrrr but is it made made,,,,,,, or a naturally nice day.

Eerrr its not a nice day the days are evil.

[Jahsdisciple]

Thanks.

Its a long haul. The fact is many of Jehovahs Witnesses will never let go of the pride that comes with
being right.

Its going to have to be torn away and they will either let go or go with it. Yet there are reasonable ones in the congregations. Alot will only be atmitted to once trust is gained which is a tough thing to garner when you are [in someone elses mind] taking and adversarial position.

You cant even change the subject an talk about the weather now without it being a controversy.

Its a nice day. eeerrrrrrr but is it made made,,,,,,, or a naturally nice day.

Eerrr its not a nice day the days are evil.

Its sad when you are seen as an enemy of some kind because you dont agree with EVERYTHING. Then you surely cant be trusted because with one doubt,there must be others. You dont have 'faith and trust in Jehovah" ..because you have looked else-where and listened to apostates or some other non-sence. Its the same with my 'family'... im a doubter and therefore am viewed with caution. Even implied, i now cant be trusted around my brothers children...so pathetic.

I wish it was just about the weather..LOL !