The two Witnesses

[FutureMan]

The two Witnesses from my perspective and understanding at this stage.

It is an on going mystery, that probably will never be solved until it is actually revealed to us when we see them in operation.

Let us all review some scriptures in reference to these two witnesses and see if we can make sense of it.

First we'll go to the first mention of the Two Witnesses in the Bible, and this is in
Zechariah.

(Zechariah 4) [LITV]
11 And I answered and said to him, What are these two olive trees on the right of

the lampstand, and on its left?
12 And I answered a second time and said to him, What are the two clusters of

olive trees beside the two golden pipes, emptying the golden oil from themselves?
13 And he spoke to me, saying, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.
14 And he said, These are the two sons of fresh oil who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Now let us go to (Exodus 40) [LITV]
1 And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying,
2 On the first day of the month, on the first of the month, you shall raise up the tent of the tabernacle of the congregation.
3 And you shall put there the ark of testimony. And you shall cover the ark with the veil.
4 And you shall bring in the table and set in order its arrangement. And you shall

bring in the lampstand and set up its lamps.
5 And you shall put the altar of gold for incense before the ark of testimony. And you shall set up the screen of the door of the tabernacle.
6 And you shall set up the altar of burnt offerings before the door of the tent of the
tabernacle of the congregation...................................... .................................................. ..
.................................................. .................................................. .............................................
16 And Moses did so, according to all that Jehovah commanded him; so he did.
17 And it happened in the first month, in the second year, on the first of the month,
the tabernacle was raised up.
18 And Moses raised up the tabernacle, and he gave its sockets, and he set up its
boards, and he gave its bars, and he raised up its pillars.
19 And he spread out the tent over the tabernacle. And he put the cover of the tent over it from above, as Jehovah commanded Moses.
20 And he took and gave the testimony into the ark. And he put the poles on the ark. And he gave the mercyseat on the ark from above.
21 And he caused the ark to go in into the tabernacle. And he placed the veil of the covering, and he covered over the ark of testimony, as Jehovah commanded Moses.
22 And he gave the table into the tabernacle of the congregation, on the side of the tabernacle, northward outside the veil.
23 And he set the bread in order on it before the face of Jehovah, as Jehovah
commanded Moses.
24 And he put the lampstand in the tabernacle of the congregation, opposite the table, on the side of the tabernacle southward.
25 And he set up the lamps before Jehovah, as Jehovah had commanded Moses.

As we see from these scriptures, the tabernacle area of the congregation was where the lamp-stand was situated, over looking the table with the holy bread on it.

So from this we can figure that the lamp-stand is in connection with the congregation of God, of which in this case, was the literal nation of Israel.

Keep in mind however that this was one lamp-stand with seven lamps upon it.

Now we will go back to Zechariah, and analyze the scripture there again.

Now olive trees are associated with energy and life.

Energy to power the lamp-stand with its seven lamps, also life sustaining food for
those who consume the olive oil.

Also the leaves of the olive leafs are good for curing ailments.

For our purpose here, curing in a spiritual sense and prolonging spiritual life which
leads to a physical extension of life, indefinitely.

Now in fact Jesus, the one who was talking to the apostle John on the Isle of Patmos, actually revealed to him what a Lamp-stand actually represents.

Let's look at this scripture closely to analyze this.

(Revelation 1) [LITV]
10 I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven churches of Asia: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me.
13 And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, having been clothed to the feet, and having been girded with a golden girdle at the breasts........................................... ..
.................................................. .................................................. ........................................
19 Write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to
occur after these things.
20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw on My right, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands you saw are seven churches.

Now from this we can see that there are now seven separate lamp-stands.
Remember though that the original Lamp-stand had seven lamps upon it, but now
each of those lamps are a seperate entity, with an angel in charge of each one and the head of the congregations (Jesus Christ), is figurately walking in between them, keeping an oversight over all of them and the seven angels.

So it is clear in this case that the lamp-stands here mentioned are in fact symbolizing individual churches or congregations of Christians, those who are followers of Christ.

So therefore it is reasonable to assume that the original lamp-stand in the tabernacle in the time of Moses was symbolizing the nation of Israel of which Jehovah God was acting as an illuminator through them as a special covenanted people (Mosaic covenant).

So now we have established a precedent, let us analyze the prophecy in Revelation about the prophesying of the two witnesses.

(revelation 11) [LITV]
3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two
hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth.

Here we can see that the "two olive trees" and the "two lamp-stands" are in fact
incorporated in the 'two witnesses".

Olive trees representing energy (from the Holy spirit) and life (spiritual life,
enlightenment) which leads to everlasting life.

Okay let us look at this scripture in (Psalms 89) [LITV]

19 Then You spoke in a vision to Your holy one; and You said, I have laid help on a
mighty one. I have exalted a chosen one from the people.
20 I have found My servant David; I have anointed him with My holy oil.
21 My hand shall be fixed with him; and My arm shall make him strong.
22 An enemy will not exact against him; nor the son of iniquity afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before him, and plague those hating him.
24 But My faithfulness and My mercy is with him; and his horn shall be exalted in My name.
25 And I will set his hand in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry to Me, My Father, You are My God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 And I will make him My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 I will keep My mercy for Him forever, and My covenant shall hold fast with Him.
29 And I have established his Seed forever, and His throne as the days of the heavens.

(Psalms 59)
13 Consume them in Your anger; consume, so that they may not be; and they shall know that God is ruling in Jacob, to the ends of the earth. Selah.

Now from these two scriptures we can gather that. one, God is ruler (or Lord) of the earth and therefore he is in control of the earth, even though Satan is said to also be ruler of this world, but in reality it is God who has always being ruler of the earth and, since Pentecost he has ruled the Christian congregation on the earth through his son Jesus Christ and also eventually with Christs anointed brothers who are also part of the ruling part of God's Kingdom.

We can liken the situation to where king Zedekiah was ruling the nation of Israel, but in reality his rulership was under the domain and appointment by king
Nebuchadnezzar himself who was the ruler of the entire Babylonian empire of which the nation of Israel had come under.

So Jesus Christ is an anointed and appointed king ruling in behalf of his heavenly
Father.

Now at the appointed time of the two witnesses we can now understand that each of those are under the power of the Holy Spirit to do the work that they are assigned to do in the manner of (Moses and Elijah).

let's review this scripture in Matthew about the transfiguration and it's relation to the two witnesses.

(Matthew 17) [LITV]
1 And after six days, Jesus took Peter and James, and his brother John, and
brought them up into a high mountain privately.
2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His
clothing became white as the light.
3 And, behold! Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 And answering, Peter said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You desire, let us make three tents here, one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
5 While he was yet speaking, behold, a radiant cloud overshadowed them. And,
behold, a voice out of the cloud saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have been delighting; hear Him. Psa. 2:7; Gen. 22:2; Isa. 42:1; Deut. 18:15

Now from my understanding of this is that these two were acting as a testament to Jesus of which Jesus was symbolized both by Moses and Elijah.

Moses for delivering God's people Israel out of Egyptian bondage and Elijah a prophet who was used to try and restore pure worship to the nation of Israel and
return the people back to God's favor.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/2949/Prophet-Function-of.htm


Now as to the two witnesses, it is uncertain as to whether both of these play the role of both Moses and Elijah or have assignments each unique to either that of Moses or Elijah, but they are both under the control of the God or Lord of the whole earth.

Now since it is stated in Revelation that a lamp-stand represents a church or
congregation, then it is reasonable to conclude that both of these two witnesses
who are symbolized by both "olive trees" and "Lamp-stands" are two groups of people (congregations or churches) who are empowered by the Holy Spirit and under the direction of Christ who is now God or Lord of the entire earth in behalf of his heavenly Father (Jehovah God).

This post is of course from my own perspective and understanding, so if any of you would like to add to this or debate then feel free to do so.

[Gilligan]

The two Witnesses from my perspective and understanding at this stage.

It is an on going mystery, that probably will never be solved until it is actually revealed to us when we see them in operation.

Let us all review some scriptures in reference to these two witnesses and see if we can make sense of it.

First we'll go to the first mention of the Two Witnesses in the Bible, and this is in
Zechariah.

(Zechariah 4) [LITV]
11 And I answered and said to him, What are these two olive trees on the right of

the lampstand, and on its left?
12 And I answered a second time and said to him, What are the two clusters of

olive trees beside the two golden pipes, emptying the golden oil from themselves?
13 And he spoke to me, saying, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.
14 And he said, These are the two sons of fresh oil who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Now let us go to (Exodus 40) [LITV]
1 And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying,
2 On the first day of the month, on the first of the month, you shall raise up the tent of the tabernacle of the congregation.
3 And you shall put there the ark of testimony. And you shall cover the ark with the veil.
4 And you shall bring in the table and set in order its arrangement. And you shall

bring in the lampstand and set up its lamps.
5 And you shall put the altar of gold for incense before the ark of testimony. And you shall set up the screen of the door of the tabernacle.
6 And you shall set up the altar of burnt offerings before the door of the tent of the
tabernacle of the congregation...................................... .................................................. ..
.................................................. .................................................. .............................................
16 And Moses did so, according to all that Jehovah commanded him; so he did.
17 And it happened in the first month, in the second year, on the first of the month,
the tabernacle was raised up.
18 And Moses raised up the tabernacle, and he gave its sockets, and he set up its
boards, and he gave its bars, and he raised up its pillars.
19 And he spread out the tent over the tabernacle. And he put the cover of the tent over it from above, as Jehovah commanded Moses.
20 And he took and gave the testimony into the ark. And he put the poles on the ark. And he gave the mercyseat on the ark from above.
21 And he caused the ark to go in into the tabernacle. And he placed the veil of the covering, and he covered over the ark of testimony, as Jehovah commanded Moses.
22 And he gave the table into the tabernacle of the congregation, on the side of the tabernacle, northward outside the veil.
23 And he set the bread in order on it before the face of Jehovah, as Jehovah
commanded Moses.
24 And he put the lampstand in the tabernacle of the congregation, opposite the table, on the side of the tabernacle southward.
25 And he set up the lamps before Jehovah, as Jehovah had commanded Moses.

As we see from these scriptures, the tabernacle area of the congregation was where the lamp-stand was situated, over looking the table with the holy bread on it.

So from this we can figure that the lamp-stand is in connection with the congregation of God, of which in this case, was the literal nation of Israel.

Keep in mind however that this was one lamp-stand with seven lamps upon it.

Now we will go back to Zechariah, and analyze the scripture there again.

Now olive trees are associated with energy and life.

Energy to power the lamp-stand with its seven lamps, also life sustaining food for
those who consume the olive oil.

Also the leaves of the olive leafs are good for curing ailments.

For our purpose here, curing in a spiritual sense and prolonging spiritual life which
leads to a physical extension of life, indefinitely.

Now in fact Jesus, the one who was talking to the apostle John on the Isle of Patmos, actually revealed to him what a Lamp-stand actually represents.

Let's look at this scripture closely to analyze this.

(Revelation 1) [LITV]
10 I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven churches of Asia: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me.
13 And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, having been clothed to the feet, and having been girded with a golden girdle at the breasts........................................... ..
.................................................. .................................................. ........................................
19 Write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to
occur after these things.
20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw on My right, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands you saw are seven churches.

Now from this we can see that there are now seven separate lamp-stands.
Remember though that the original Lamp-stand had seven lamps upon it, but now
each of those lamps are a seperate entity, with an angel in charge of each one and the head of the congregations (Jesus Christ), is figurately walking in between them, keeping an oversight over all of them and the seven angels.

So it is clear in this case that the lamp-stands here mentioned are in fact symbolizing individual churches or congregations of Christians, those who are followers of Christ.

So therefore it is reasonable to assume that the original lamp-stand in the tabernacle in the time of Moses was symbolizing the nation of Israel of which Jehovah God was acting as an illuminator through them as a special covenanted people (Mosaic covenant).

So now we have established a precedent, let us analyze the prophecy in Revelation about the prophesying of the two witnesses.

(revelation 11) [LITV]
3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two
hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth.

Here we can see that the "two olive trees" and the "two lamp-stands" are in fact
incorporated in the 'two witnesses".

Olive trees representing energy (from the Holy spirit) and life (spiritual life,
enlightenment) which leads to everlasting life.

Okay let us look at this scripture in (Psalms 89) [LITV]

19 Then You spoke in a vision to Your holy one; and You said, I have laid help on a
mighty one. I have exalted a chosen one from the people.
20 I have found My servant David; I have anointed him with My holy oil.
21 My hand shall be fixed with him; and My arm shall make him strong.
22 An enemy will not exact against him; nor the son of iniquity afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before him, and plague those hating him.
24 But My faithfulness and My mercy is with him; and his horn shall be exalted in My name.
25 And I will set his hand in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry to Me, My Father, You are My God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 And I will make him My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 I will keep My mercy for Him forever, and My covenant shall hold fast with Him.
29 And I have established his Seed forever, and His throne as the days of the heavens.

(Psalms 59)
13 Consume them in Your anger; consume, so that they may not be; and they shall know that God is ruling in Jacob, to the ends of the earth. Selah.

Now from these two scriptures we can gather that. one, God is ruler (or Lord) of the earth and therefore he is in control of the earth, even though Satan is said to also be ruler of this world, but in reality it is God who has always being ruler of the earth and, since Pentecost he has ruled the Christian congregation on the earth through his son Jesus Christ and also eventually with Christs anointed brothers who are also part of the ruling part of God's Kingdom.

We can liken the situation to where king Zedekiah was ruling the nation of Israel, but in reality his rulership was under the domain and appointment by king
Nebuchadnezzar himself who was the ruler of the entire Babylonian empire of which the nation of Israel had come under.

So Jesus Christ is an anointed and appointed king ruling in behalf of his heavenly
Father.

Now at the appointed time of the two witnesses we can now understand that each of those are under the power of the Holy Spirit to do the work that they are assigned to do in the manner of (Moses and Elijah).

let's review this scripture in Matthew about the transfiguration and it's relation to the two witnesses.

(Matthew 17) [LITV]
1 And after six days, Jesus took Peter and James, and his brother John, and
brought them up into a high mountain privately.
2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His
clothing became white as the light.
3 And, behold! Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 And answering, Peter said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You desire, let us make three tents here, one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
5 While he was yet speaking, behold, a radiant cloud overshadowed them. And,
behold, a voice out of the cloud saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have been delighting; hear Him. Psa. 2:7; Gen. 22:2; Isa. 42:1; Deut. 18:15

Now from my understanding of this is that these two were acting as a testament to Jesus of which Jesus was symbolized both by Moses and Elijah.

Moses for delivering God's people Israel out of Egyptian bondage and Elijah a prophet who was used to try and restore pure worship to the nation of Israel and
return the people back to God's favor.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/2949/Prophet-Function-of.htm


Now as to the two witnesses, it is uncertain as to whether both of these play the role of both Moses and Elijah or have assignments each unique to either that of Moses or Elijah, but they are both under the control of the God or Lord of the whole earth.

Now since it is stated in Revelation that a lamp-stand represents a church or
congregation, then it is reasonable to conclude that both of these two witnesses
who are symbolized by both "olive trees" and "Lamp-stands" are two groups of people (congregations or churches) who are empowered by the Holy Spirit and under the direction of Christ who is now God or Lord of the entire earth in behalf of his heavenly Father (Jehovah God).

This post is of course from my own perspective and understanding, so if any of you would like to add to this or debate then feel free to do so.



Great post FM,

Since this topic/thread was already supplied here over a month ago, I have always been dwelling on the mystery of the "Two Witnesses".
Mr. Galleria says that the "Two Witnesses" are actually the United States & Israel.
Sounds plausible to me, but for quite awhile I have always thought that the
"Two Witnesses" were the JW's and the Watchman (since he started up since 7 plus years ago).

Anyway, that's all I have gleamed from this scriptural secret,,,

Gills

[FutureMan]

Great post FM,

Since this topic/thread was already supplied here over a month ago, I have always been dwelling on the mystery of the "Two Witnesses".
Mr. Galleria says that the "Two Witnesses" are actually the United States & Israel.
Sounds plausible to me, but for quite awhile I have always thought that the
"Two Witnesses" were the JW's and the Watchman (since he started up since 7 plus years ago).

Anyway, that's all I have gleamed from this scriptural secret,,,

Gills

Hi Gilligan, yes we all need to be progressing to what is the truth, and each one of of can make a contribution to this, whether we are right or wrong.

[mrgalleria]

Alo ha,
May I ask, did you make request of Jehovah for any assistance
in understanding the meaning of this prophesy?

Is this understanding the result of a personal study,
and the resulting personal understanding of what was written?

May the lampstands only signify congregations, and if so,
what exactly are the seven congregations?

Were there also seven olive trees to symbolize the seven congregations?

There are seven stars to symbolize the seven congregations,
so are there 2 stars to symbolize the two witnesses?

What is the common similarity between a golden lampstand of 7 lamps,
7 pipes, and a bowl, with- a lampstand?

When John said "I came to be in the spirit of the Lords day",
was John referring to the "Lord of the earth"?

Is Jehovah commonly referred to as "the Lord of the earth",
or "the Lord of heaven and earth"?

Is it possible for Jehovah to be "impaled"?

Who states "I will send my two witnesses'?

What is the great city?

What is the street, or broad way?

Whats are the "waters" that are turned to blood?

Does the Bible tells us what the witnesses will prophesy?

What is the spirit of Sodom and Egypt?

How is it that some of peoples of tribes, tongues, and nations see the two witnesses bodies?

Why do the people rejoice over the death of the two witnesses?

Bill

[Gilligan]

Alo ha,
May I ask, did you make request of Jehovah for any assistance
in understanding the meaning of this prophesy?
Bill

Speaking for myself I have, hundreds of times, thousands of times.
I'm just a lonely boy traveling thru time, seeking answers to these questions.
From a little kid going door-to-door happily talking to strangers about Jehovah & His Son,
to this time, right now, 50 years old, I have always tried to get some answer.
My alternative answer to all this always comes to me in the form compassion & love.
I am here, and He always comes thru for me, even in my darkest hours.

So now I go with the flow, I do not have any input at all to these Biblical mysteries.
That's why I just post silly comebacks here.
I enjoy everybodies opinions on this site and maybe, just maybe, somebody will step forward with
a undeniable answer and meaning to these deep secrets.

KInd of like discovering the "Theory of Everything", but I since I am no Einstein,
I will leave this up to someone who is, while I enjoy my backyard, watching my pet bunnies running
around like crazy.

Gills

[truthseeker]

Speaking for myself I have, hundreds of times, thousands of times.
I'm just a lonely boy traveling thru time, seeking answers to these questions.
From a little kid going door-to-door happily talking to strangers about Jehovah & His Son,
to this time, right now, 50 years old, I have always tried to get some answer.
My alternative answer to all this always comes to me in the form compassion & love.
I am here, and He always comes thru for me, even in my darkest hours.

So now I go with the flow, I do not have any input at all to these Biblical mysteries.
That's why I just post silly comebacks here.
I enjoy everybodies opinions on this site and maybe, just maybe, somebody will step forward with
a undeniable answer and meaning to these deep secrets.

KInd of like discovering the "Theory of Everything", but I since I am no Einstein,
I will leave this up to someone who is, while I enjoy my backyard, watching my pet bunnies running
around like crazy.

Gills

MMMMM Bunnie Stew!!!!

[Gilligan]

mmmmm bunnie stew!!!!


!!!shut up!!!

[James]

MMMMM Bunnie Stew!!!!




!!!shut up!!!

That's right, truthseeker!

What's wrong with you????!!!!!

Barbecue is the only way to go!!!!

[Gilligan]

That's right, truthseeker!

What's wrong with you????!!!!!

Barbecue is the only way to go!!!!


Oh you evil-doers, may you be smitten,,,,:p

[Anthony]

Sorry FM that some found it necessary to turn your post into child’s play instead of just making those types of comments to each other by way of PM's, and for the one whom is intent on hijacking this tread with more of his nonsense, which if you wanted you could have just kept posting to the other threads that spoke of the two witnesses, but you tried to start fresh but to no prevail.

I tell you what I would love to see happen, but of course it won’t because everyone is so attached and not willing to let go, and don’t really know how to start fresh or let go…I would like to see every single post, topic and thread on this site deleted…I mean all…and then start off again and see what direction this board goes without being able to look at old threads to spur up talking points and thoughts.

[Steadfast]

It is reasonable to conclude that both of these two witnesses
who are symbolized by both "olive trees" and "Lamp-stands" are two groups of people (congregations or churches) who are empowered by the Holy Spirit and under the direction of Christ who is now God or Lord of the entire earth in behalf of his heavenly Father (Jehovah God).

Dear Future Man,

I have to agree with your conclusion above. :)

Where I would deviate from it somewhat is that Jesus mentioned 'a little flock' and 'other sheep not of this fold.' JWs have been taught that the little flock are the 144,000 and the other sheep are the great crowd.

Jesus knew there would eventually be gentile believers who would follow him. Perhaps this is what Jesus was trying to tell his disciples and us. The 'little flock' would be those from the Mosaic Law Covenant, and the 'other sheep not of this fold' would be the gentile believers. Both would become one flock under one shepherd in the New Covenant.

There are many Jews today who are still finding Messiah. Because of this, I am inclined to think that the two witnesses will be Jews and gentiles who are sealed as part of the 144k at the 6th seal in Revelation. It is this group of believers who will accomplish the two-witness preaching.

Love,

Steadfast

[FutureMan]

Alo ha,
May I ask, did you make request of Jehovah for any assistance
in understanding the meaning of this prophesy?

Is this understanding the result of a personal study,
and the resulting personal understanding of what was written?

May the lampstands only signify congregations, and if so,
what exactly are the seven congregations?

Were there also seven olive trees to symbolize the seven congregations?

There are seven stars to symbolize the seven congregations,
so are there 2 stars to symbolize the two witnesses?

What is the common similarity between a golden lampstand of 7 lamps,
7 pipes, and a bowl, with- a lampstand?

When John said "I came to be in the spirit of the Lords day",
was John referring to the "Lord of the earth"?

Is Jehovah commonly referred to as "the Lord of the earth",
or "the Lord of heaven and earth"?

Is it possible for Jehovah to be "impaled"?

Who states "I will send my two witnesses'?

What is the great city?

What is the street, or broad way?

Whats are the "waters" that are turned to blood?

Does the Bible tells us what the witnesses will prophesy?

What is the spirit of Sodom and Egypt?

How is it that some of peoples of tribes, tongues, and nations see the two witnesses bodies?

Why do the people rejoice over the death of the two witnesses?

Bill

Hello Bill, I'm not trying to second guess your post on the two witnesses, but rather to present to you all with what I consider to be an alternative as from my perspective and understanding of the scriptures according to my own study and research.

As to your question whether I ask assistance as to my understanding of the scriptures, yes I do pray to God for his Holy Spirit to help me discern what is the truth and I do this often.

Whether or not God is actually granting my request is another matter however, but I do feel that he is helping me to understand a lot of things that are going on, in the Christian community and in the world in general.

But like I said this is my feelings.
Can feelings be trusted?
Not necessarily, as I know that Satan is roaming around trying to mislead all of us, who are trying to search for the real truth, from the Bible and what is really going on in the world right now.

Now as to your other questions, let us address them one at a time.

You asked me this one.

"May the lampstands only signify congregations, and if so,
what exactly are the seven congregations?"

No not necessarily as I believe that the original lamp-stand represented Israel.
But we also need to keep in mind that Israel was also referred to as a congregation of God's people.
So not only a nation but also a congregation.

But having said that I do believe that the lamp-stand as mentioned in the Bible is always in connection with Jehovah God and his people, whether it be Israel of old or spiritual Israel today (Christians).

Now your next question you asked:

"Were there also seven olive trees to symbolize the seven congregations?"

Of course from the scriptures we know that there wasn't seven olive trees.

Even though there were actually seven literal congregations existing at that time of which the letters were written to, there not necessarily have to be seven literal congregations, but seven different types or situation existing in the Christian congregation as a whole, in our day today.

Also the number seven is a symbol and perhaps not meant to be a literal number.

It is clear to me that these seven were Christian congregations or churches and so if we apply this as a prophecy for the future, then it would also involve those who call themselves Christians today.

Your next question was this one:

"There are seven stars to symbolize the seven congregations,
so are there 2 stars to symbolize the two witnesses?"

As to my understanding and study of the scriptures, the seven "stars" do not represent each congregation but the "angel" of each congregation or church.

Now as we all know the Watchtower Society claim that these stars actually represent the elders (the glorious ones as they put it) in each congregation.

But still the scriptures actually say that each star actually represent an angel.

Now whether or the term "angel' is meant to be literal or to represent the leaders in each congregation, this I not clear on.

Now as regards the two witnesses this does not necessarily mean that there are actually a literal two Witnesses or two groups of witnesses.

It could be a situation of needing two witnesses to testify to a fact or a situation.

God has applied this rule as to convicting someone of a crime or convincing someone of the truth.

So the two witnesses could simply mean one group that would be prophesying in symbolic sack cloth during the 42 months.

But they also could be two literal groups of Christians whom God will use to achieve this prophesying.

Now your next question was this one:

"What is the common similarity between a golden lampstand of 7 lamps,
7 pipes, and a bowl, with- a lampstand?"

Of course the number 7 is the common thing here in this phrase that you mentioned, whether it be literal in the time of Israel or a symbolic number in our time today.

The bowl is what held the oil, and the seven pipes feed this oil to the seven lamps.

Each lamp was acting as an illumination and all combined on the one lamp-stand to illuminate as a bright light, that part of the tabernacle and what was presented on the table.

In our time today, it is my understanding that each lamp (congregation) as a lamp-stand today are fed by Christ through the Holy Spirit today. There is no mention of pipes or bowls attached to these lamp-stand in this vision that the apostle John received.

So each Christian congregation should be acting as a light for it's own members and for the world outside.
The combined light of all seven symbolic lamp-stands (or candlesticks as mentioned in some Bibles) should make it considerably bright indeed, that is if all the lamps were shining brightly and had enough Holy spirit going to each one of them.

Your next question was this one:

"When John said "I came to be in the spirit of the Lords day",
was John referring to the "Lord of the earth"?"

It is my understanding that since Jesus was made "ruler of all the earth" then this would apply to him as being 'Lord of the earth".

Of course Satan thinks that he is lord of the earth, but it is Jesus who really is Lord of the earth.

Now your next question was this:

"Is it possible for Jehovah to be "impaled"?"

Now that is an interesting question.

Yes it is possible for Jehovah to be impaled in a symbolic sense.

When Jesus was impaled on the earth those 2000 years ago, to Jehovah God, it would have being like he himself was being impaled, such was the close relationship that existed between the two.

I do believe however that the one who was impaled was Jesus (the Lord) himself that is referred to here.

Your next question was this one:

"Who states "I will send my two witnesses'?"

As it mentions in Revelation 10:8, that it was a voice that spoke out of heaven, from my perspective, this would be God himself, usually when the Bible mentions a voice out of heaven, it is the voice of God himself.

But this voice could also be of the Christ, as he is now the one that has been given all authority in heaven and earth and also he was after all the one that gave the apostle John the visions.

You also asked this question:
"What is the great city?"

Well the Bible refers to the "woman", "Babylon the Great" as the great city that has a kingdom over all the kings of the earth.

Next you asked this question:
"What is the street, or broad way?"

I'm not exactly sure on this one, but I assume that it is talking about this "system of things" that is on the broad road to destruction.

Next this question you asked:

"Whats are the "waters" that are turned to blood?"

It is my understanding that the waters that turn to blood are the symbolic waters of truth that have become unpalatable or undrinkable just like the first plague of Egypt in Moses time.

Nest you asked this question:
"Does the Bible tells us what the witnesses will prophesy?"

Not exactly, as this was sealed up with what "the seven thunders" spoke.

But we can have a good guess from what the prophets such as Ezekiel and Jeremiah and so on, spoke about, in regards to God's people and the other surrounding nations.

Next you asked this question:

"What is the spirit of Sodom and Egypt?"

Well as far as I understand Sodom symbolizes "wickedness (Immorality, injustices, violence and so on) all of what this world is today.

Egypt to me would represent the one who is in control of the earth, the political powers, at this time.

And the last two questions you said was this:

"How is it that some of peoples of tribes, tongues, and nations see the two witnesses bodies?"

Well we have television and the internet (u-tube etc) where all this could be viewed all around the world.

"Why do the people rejoice over the death of the two witnesses?"

Because they are being tormented by these two witnesses just as some of the prophets of old tormented both God's own people and those of the nations around them.

Obviously the message that these two witnesses deliver, is not to their liking and I would say rather unpleasant for them.

I hope this helps you Bill in understanding what I'm thinking as regards the two witnesses.

PS I missed one question.

"Is Jehovah commonly referred to as "the Lord of the earth",
or "the Lord of heaven and earth"?"

Well this scripture comes to my mind, which I'll quote here.
(Psalms 83) [LITV]
18 And let them know Your name is Jehovah, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Here it does not mention that he is the most high over all the universe (heaven and earth), but I guess that this is in reference to who really was the 'Lord of the earth" or the true God of the earth.

[mrgalleria]

Alo ha.
Thank you for your thorough reply, Mr. T (Futureman).
I am going to bounce around a little with some answers.
Kind of the way John wrote Revelation. Because very frequently,
he refers to something once, and then describes it differently later.
In this way, we can often understand hidden things.

First- read Rev. 17:15- "...The waters that you saw...
mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

At Rev. 11:6 the Two Witnesses "have authority over the waters to turn them to blood".
I hope that you can see that the two witnesses are shedding
a great deal of the blood of peoples, crowds, nations, and tongues.
Now look at Rev. 11:9,10- "the people and tribes and nations and tongues ...
do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb.
And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them..."
Does not this make sense? The Two have murdered many around the world,
and when the Two finally die, it is a time to rejoice.

Does this sound like the work of Jehovah, because up to now,
you attribute the witnessing of the Two to God?

Rev. Chapter 10 opens with the description of a strong angel.
It is important to note that he has one foot on the sea, the other foot on the earth.
At Rev. 10:9- this angel (he) begins speaking to John.
"He" is different from "a voice (or "the voice") out of heaven", right?
At Rev. 10:11- "they" speak- that is, the untitled/unnamed strong angel, and the "voice" out of heaven.
At Rev. 11:1-3- "he said" (the angel) "I will cause my two witnesses..."
At Rev. 11:4- the Two stand "before the Lord of the earth".
At this point the strong angel is identified as the Lord of the earth,
and at Rev. 11:8- their (the Two) Lord was impaled.
At Rev. 11:12- the "voice out of heaven" speaks.
In every case, the voice from heaven is identified and isolated, distinctly different from a "he".
In this way John was able to show who was speaking.

Quote "I do believe that the lamp-stand as mentioned in the Bible is always
in connection with Jehovah God and his people"
Daniel 5:5 states "at that moment the fingers of a man's hand
came forth and were writing in front of the lampstand..."
We do remember that God is a practical God.
The foremost purpose of a lampstand is to make light, to illuminate something.
So something done in illumination is not concealed.
In a practical, functional way, the Two are operating in a clearly visible way.
From the lampstands inception, it has been so.

[Utuna]

Dear Futureman,

You said :


It could be a situation of needing two witnesses to testify to a fact or a situation.I agree ! Two witnesses were required to testify that the new year had begun and to start the Rosh Hoshanah feast. That's what we're waiting for. Jesus preached that God's kingdom is near and the two witnesses will testify that God's kingdom will be then incoming.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[FutureMan]

Alo ha.
Thank you for your thorough reply, Mr. T (Futureman).
I am going to bounce around a little with some answers.
Kind of the way John wrote Revelation. Because very frequently,
he refers to something once, and then describes it differently later.
In this way, we can often understand hidden things.

First- read Rev. 17:15- "...The waters that you saw...
mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

At Rev. 11:6 the Two Witnesses "have authority over the waters to turn them to blood".
I hope that you can see that the two witnesses are shedding
a great deal of the blood of peoples, crowds, nations, and tongues.
Now look at Rev. 11:9,10- "the people and tribes and nations and tongues ...
do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb.
And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them..."
Does not this make sense? The Two have murdered many around the world,
and when the Two finally die, it is a time to rejoice.

Does this sound like the work of Jehovah, because up to now,
you attribute the witnessing of the Two to God?

Rev. Chapter 10 opens with the description of a strong angel.
It is important to note that he has one foot on the sea, the other foot on the earth.
At Rev. 10:9- this angel (he) begins speaking to John.
"He" is different from "a voice (or "the voice") out of heaven", right?
At Rev. 10:11- "they" speak- that is, the untitled/unnamed strong angel, and the "voice" out of heaven.
At Rev. 11:1-3- "he said" (the angel) "I will cause my two witnesses..."
At Rev. 11:4- the Two stand "before the Lord of the earth".
At this point the strong angel is identified as the Lord of the earth,
and at Rev. 11:8- their (the Two) Lord was impaled.
At Rev. 11:12- the "voice out of heaven" speaks.
In every case, the voice from heaven is identified and isolated, distinctly different from a "he".
In this way John was able to show who was speaking.

Quote "I do believe that the lamp-stand as mentioned in the Bible is always
in connection with Jehovah God and his people"
Daniel 5:5 states "at that moment the fingers of a man's hand
came forth and were writing in front of the lampstand..."
We do remember that God is a practical God.
The foremost purpose of a lampstand is to make light, to illuminate something.
So something done in illumination is not concealed.
In a practical, functional way, the Two are operating in a clearly visible way.
From the lampstands inception, it has been so.

Hi again Bill, I think that it depends of what context that the "waters" is used here, as regards the two witnesses.

Here is a couple of scriptures to show how it can be used in a different way than referring to a vast crowd of people.

(Revelation 7) [LITV]
16 And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat.
17 Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them, and will lead them on the living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.

And here is another one.

(Revelation 14) [LITV]
7 saying in a great voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him, because the hour of His judgment has come; also, Worship "Him who has made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea," and the springs of waters. Ex. 20:11

(Exodus 14)
26 And Jehovah said to Moses, Stretch out your hand over the sea, and let the waters return on the Egyptians, on their chariots, and on their horsemen.

So I guess there is at least three ways of looking at the word "waters" isn't there?

[FutureMan]

Dear Futureman,

You said :

I agree ! Two witnesses were required to testify that the new year had begun and to start the Rosh Hoshanah feast. That's what we're waiting for. Jesus preached that God's kingdom is near and the two witnesses will testify that God's kingdom will be then incoming.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hello Utuna, that is a good point you have made there.

[Anthony]

Quote FM –“As it mentions in Revelation 10:8, that it was a voice that spoke out of heaven, from my perspective, this would be God himself, usually when the Bible mentions a voice out of heaven, it is the voice of God himself.”




Quote Bill- “Does this sound like the work of Jehovah, because up to now,
you attribute the witnessing of the Two to God?”

Rev. Chapter 10 opens with the description of a strong angel.
It is important to note that he has one foot on the sea, the other foot on the earth. At Rev. 10:9- this angel (he) begins speaking to John. "He" is different from "a voice (or "the voice") out of heaven", right? At Rev. 10:11- "they" speak- that is, the untitled/unnamed strong angel, and the "voice" out of heaven. At Rev. 11:1-3- "he said" (the angel) "I will cause my two witnesses..." At Rev. 11:4- the Two stand "before the Lord of the earth". At this point the strong angel is identified as the Lord of the earth, and at Rev. 11:8- their (the Two) Lord was impaled. At Rev. 11:12- the "voice out of heaven" speaks. In every case, the voice from heaven is identified and isolated, distinctly different from a "he". In this way John was able to show who was speaking.


Yes it is the untitled/unnamed strong angel that speaks at Revelation 11:3 saying that he will cause his two witnesses to prophesy. (Just for the moment we will keep referring to him as the untitled/unnamed strong angel. )

With that in mind, we have this untitled/unnamed strong angel swearing to the one in the heavens at Revelation 10:5-7. At Revelation 10:8 we have “the voice” telling John to interact with the untitled/unnamed strong angel by taking the scroll from his hand. And we have both “the voice” and untitled/unnamed strong angel giving John the same direction at Revelation 10:11

Clearly “the voice” is that of Jehovah or Jesus, as it is said that it comes out of heaven. So if the untitled/unnamed strong angel that only stands on the earth and sea, swore to the heavens, to the one that created the heavens, earth and sea, then that means that this untitled/unnamed strong angel worships and submits to Jehovah. Also since “the voice” instructs John to take the scroll from the untitled/unnamed strong angel and both the untitled/unnamed strong angel and "the voice" tell John to prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings, then that means that “the voice” and the untitled/unnamed strong angel are in harmony with one another. (harmony- 1. agreement; accord; —Synonyms 1. concord, unity, peace, amity, friendship.)



Quote Bill- “At Rev. 11:4- the Two stand "before the Lord of the earth". At this point the strong angel is identified as the Lord of the earth”

Revelation 11:4 is the untitled/unnamed strong angel speaking but he is not identifing him self as the Lord of the earth, he says that his two witnesses are standing before the lord of the earth.

(Isaiah 54:5) “For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser. The God of the whole earth he will be called.

(Micah 4:13) “Get up and thresh, O daughter of Zion; for your horn I shall change into iron, and your hoofs I shall change into copper, and you will certainly pulverize many peoples; and by a ban you will actually devote to Jehovah their unjust profit, and their resources to the [true] Lord of the whole earth.”

(Zechariah 4:14) Accordingly he said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.”

(Zechariah 6:5) So the angel answered and said to me: “These are the four spirits of the heavens that are going forth after having taken their station before the Lord of the whole earth.

(Revelation 11:4) These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.

[mrgalleria]

Alo ha,
Mr. T- you said "So I guess there is at least three ways
of looking at the word "waters" isn't there?"
No. Because we are not, nor were we ever talking about "waters".
We are talking about "the waters". Do you see the difference?

Utuna wrote- "'the two witnesses will testify that God's kingdom will be then incoming."
Is there a scriptural basis for this in Revelation?

Anthony wrote- "we have this untitled/unnamed strong angel swearing to the one in the heavens"
You left out something important. The angel "raised his right hand to heaven".
I view this as a defiant gesture, though it was done as a part of him swearing.
This is another sign to us.

And "Clearly “the voice” is that of Jehovah or Jesus"
No, this assumption has no basis. Even though John himself heard the voice,
he did not say it was God, Jesus, nor an angel,
because it could have been any of these things.
How can we assume something that even John himself would not?

And "“the voice” and the untitled/unnamed strong angel are in harmony with one another."
Only in this respect- "...there is no authority except by God;
the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by god."
Romans 13:1.
This angel is a symbol of that authority that has been granted by God,
but it does never mean that the authorities of the earth are cooperating
with God's will and purposes for mankind.

And "the untitled/unnamed strong angel speaking but he is not identifing him self as the Lord of the earth"
There is no need for the strong angel to identify himself, as John does this.
For the Two stand before him, and he calls them his (MY Two- mine).
Bill

[Anthony]

Quote Bill-You left out something important. The angel "raised his right hand to heaven". Isn’t that even what man made courts have you do? I view this as a defiant gesture, Key word here I meaning you. I could see if he turn and bent over showing his spirit butt cheaks. though it was done as a part of him swearing. Why even swear at all to him? This is another sign to us. To you!!!

Quote Bill-No, this assumption has no basis. Even though John himself heard the voice, he did not say it was God, Jesus, nor an angel, because it could have been any of these things. How can we assume something that even John himself would not? Ok fine I will add in angel. Clearly “the voice” is Jehovah or Jesus or an angel because it is said to come out of heaven.. As far as no basis, how about: “Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again.”Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” “And as the voice occurred Jesus was found alone.” “Now as he was traveling he approached Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He said: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Nevertheless, rise and enter into the city, and what you must do will be told you.” Now the men that were journeying with him were standing speechless, hearing, indeed, the sound of a voice, but not beholding any man.” “Now the men that were with me beheld, indeed, the light but did not hear the voice of the one speaking to me.” “And a voice came to him: “Rise, Peter, slaughter and eat!But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because never have I eaten anything defiled and unclean.” And the voice [spoke] again to him, the second time: “You stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.” “And they (the two witnesses) heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: “Come on up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. (At this point in time Satan and his angels would have been thrown out of heaven.)

Quote Bill-Only in this respect- How about in the respect that they both tell John to prophesy and the voice tells John to take the scroll from the angel?"...there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by god."Romans 13:1.This angel is a symbol of that authority that has been granted by God, but it does never mean that the authorities of the earth are cooperating with God's will and purposes for mankind.

Quote Bill-There is no need for the strong angel to identify himself, as John does this. Where does John do so? For the Two stand before him, and he calls them his (MY Two- mine). 3 And I (untitled/unnamed strong angel) will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These (the two witnesses) are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth

[mrgalleria]

Anthony, it is futile for you to resist.
Bill

[FutureMan]

Alo ha,
Mr. T- you said "So I guess there is at least three ways
of looking at the word "waters" isn't there?"
No. Because we are not, nor were we ever talking about "waters".
We are talking about "the waters". Do you see the difference?

Utuna wrote- "'the two witnesses will testify that God's kingdom will be then incoming."
Is there a scriptural basis for this in Revelation?

Anthony wrote- "we have this untitled/unnamed strong angel swearing to the one in the heavens"
You left out something important. The angel "raised his right hand to heaven".
I view this as a defiant gesture, though it was done as a part of him swearing.
This is another sign to us.

And "Clearly “the voice” is that of Jehovah or Jesus"
No, this assumption has no basis. Even though John himself heard the voice,
he did not say it was God, Jesus, nor an angel,
because it could have been any of these things.
How can we assume something that even John himself would not?

And "“the voice” and the untitled/unnamed strong angel are in harmony with one another."
Only in this respect- "...there is no authority except by God;
the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by god."
Romans 13:1.
This angel is a symbol of that authority that has been granted by God,
but it does never mean that the authorities of the earth are cooperating
with God's will and purposes for mankind.

And "the untitled/unnamed strong angel speaking but he is not identifing him self as the Lord of the earth"
There is no need for the strong angel to identify himself, as John does this.
For the Two stand before him, and he calls them his (MY Two- mine).
Bill






Hello Bill well in my interlinear it shows the meaning of the words "of waters" to be
"udatwn"

The same interlinear shows the meaning of the words "the waters" also to be
"udatwn"

It appears that the literal "waters" as in a lake or river or similar uses the word "udata"

When it is referring to the actual sea "waters" then the word is "udasin"

This is from my study of the interlinear (Interlinear Scripture Analyzer), in any case.

Now I would like to show you a few more scriptures to show why I believe that the 'two witnesses" are actually God's chosen ones, let us look first at one that nearly all
Jehovah's Witnesses are familiar with.


Isaiah 43 [LITV]

9 Let all the nations be assembled, and let the peoples be gathered. Who among them can declare this and cause us to hear former things? Let them give their witnesses, that they may be justified. Or let them hear and say, It is true.
10 You are My witnesses, says Jehovah; and My servant whom I have elected; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall any be after Me.
11 I, I am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me.
12 I declared, and I saved, and I proclaimed; and there is not an alien god among you. And you are My witnesses, says Jehovah, and I am God.

Here Jehovah is saying here that you are my witnesses here in these verses of Isaiah.
Who are his witnesses?
Well as the scriptures say : My servant whom I have elected, which from this statement, I understand in this context "My servant" to be in a plural sense. More than one persons.

Just before he stated this Jehovah had asked the nations to produce their own witnesses to say that he was not the true God.

But they cannot produce any.

But God can and many of them, who are willing to testify in behalf of their God and his Christ.

Now let us look at this scripture, this time in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 6 [LITV]
9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain for the Word of God, and for the witness which they had.
10 And they cried with a great voice, saying, Until when, holy and true Master, do You not judge and take vengeance for our blood, from those dwelling on the earth?
11 And there was given to each one a white robe. And it was said to them that they should rest yet a little time, until might be fulfilled also the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers, those being about to be killed, even as they.

Now let us look at another scripture in Revelation.

Revelation 12 [LITV]
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman who bore the male.
14 And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent's face.
15 And the serpent threw water out of his mouth like a river after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried off by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon threw out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Can you not see any connection between these three scriptures and the one in (Revelation 11) which speaks about the two witnesses and their prophesying?

[mrgalleria]

Quote- "Can you not see any connection between these three scriptures and the one in (Revelation 11) which speaks about the two witnesses and their prophesying?"

Alo ha,
No, sorry, I can not.
If there had been even the remotest suggestion that these witnesses
that you wrote of, performed any of the signs that are performed by the Two,
you would have a basis for questioning what I have interpreted.

Continually you overlook key elements to rationalize your understanding.
In the reference to the waters, reference is also made to the
peoples and tribes and tongues and nations- Rev. 17:15 & Rev. 11:9.
What advantage is it to accept the explanation of the waters
being many people's around the world, then deny it is so
when reference is made to the waters at another place,
and reference is also made to the people's there?

For example, at Rev. 13:1-8 the Leopard/Bear/Lion beast with 10 horns
and 7 heads comes from the sea. One head is slaughtered to death, but gets healed.
At Rev. 17:3-12 the scarlet colored beast with 10 horns and 7 heads
is described as "was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss".
This is the same beast as at Rev. 13:1-8 (and Rev. 11:7),
but more, and different information is given.
By combining the clues throughout Revelation,
and identifying key elements without prejudice,
it is possible to understand things, especially if the interpretation is aided
by someone who has been given knowledge from above.

Frequently, as you can see, John may make reference to something,
which he later explains in fuller detail, as with the Leopard/Bear/Lion beast.
Another example is at Rev. 11:5 where fire issues from the mouths of the Two.
At Rev. 9:18 "a third of the men were killed, from the fire and the smoke
and the sulphur which issued forth from their mouths."
From this we know that we are talking about the same thing- that is- modern weapons.
Will the Two Witnesses (as you understand them to be) use modern weapons?
Bill

[FutureMan]

Quote- "Can you not see any connection between these three scriptures and the one in (Revelation 11) which speaks about the two witnesses and their prophesying?"

Alo ha,
No, sorry, I can not.
If there had been even the remotest suggestion that these witnesses
that you wrote of, performed any of the signs that are performed by the Two,
you would have a basis for questioning what I have interpreted.



Bill, I'm not suggesting at all that these two witnesses have performed any signs as yet, apart from being involved with the preaching work of late, but that the same ones that are already considered to be God's witnesses now by God himself will perform this work sometime in the near future.

[FutureMan]

Bill, I'm not suggesting at all that these two witnesses have performed any signs as yet, apart from being involved with the preaching work of late, but that the same ones that are already considered to be God's witnesses now by God himself will perform this work sometime in the near future.



I just thought that I might add that there is a similarity here concerning the two witnesses, with the prophet Elijah who prophesied in the time of King Ahab about the false worship and wickedness that was being perpetrated during his reign in the ten tribe kingdom of Israel.

During this time Elijah performed a few miracles such as stopping it from raining for 3 and a half years and causing an inexhaustible supply of oil and flour for a widowed woman and performed another miracle on her child by raising up her child and curing him from a serious illness.

He also caused fire by means of Jehovah God's power, to come down out of heaven that devoured all of what was on the altar and the altar itself that was built out of stones.

Now as we know Moses also performed a number of miracles with Jehovah's power of course, such as turning his brother Aaron's staff into a snake, the 10 plagues of Egypt the last one which killed nearly all of the first born of the Egyptians, the parting of the red sea which killed nearly all if not all of the Pharaoh's army, striking a rocky crag and producing water out of it and so on.

Now when Jesus took his three disciples on to the top of a high mountain and was transfigured before them there also appeared Moses and Elijah beside him and they were conversing with him.

Both of these were prophets that performed miracles before people and were witnesses of Jehovah God.

Now I see a similarity between these two and the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

Now the blood that is mentioned here in revelation does not need to be literal to be fulfilled, it could mean that spiritual food becomes very scarce and undrinkable just like the life sustaining waters of the Nile in Egypt was made undrinkable during the first plague on her during the time of Moses.
And because of this there would be a real thirst for proper spiritual food or drink that would otherwise sustain them and give them hope.

But there is a possibility that the two witnesses could really turn the drinking water into blood just like the first plague of Egypt, in my opinion this is not beyond possibility.

It is not beyond real possibility that the two witnesses could really stop it from raining and cause drought to occur, but since it states that fire issues from their mouths if anyone wants to harm them, then this does appear that this is symbolic fire as in a scorching judgment message and a harsh rebuke, coming out of their mouths and also then it would stand to follow that all the rest of this scripture is symbolic in nature.

When it states that they might try and harm the two witnesses this might not mean that there is attempted harm on them literally or physically, but as a body and that they would try to stop their work, though some of them individually could be in danger of being harmed or even killed during this time of prophesying.
But all will be killed and raised up after 3 and a half days just like their master (Lord).

So who is the Two Witnesses prophesying against in any case?

Is it against the whole world in general?

Or is it only for those who called themselves God's people who dwell all over the surface of the earth?

Is their not something in Ezekiel that shows who the two witnesses really are and who they are prophesying against in figurative sack-cloth?

Why would they be prophesying in sack-cloth?
Is this not because this is prophesying against their own people?
The righteous man Job also sat in sack-cloth because of his pitiful condition.

Did Jonah prophesy in sack cloth against the City of Nineveh?
Who were the ones that put on the sack cloth in this case?
Was it not the Ninevites themselves as a sign of repentance?

(Ezekiel 8) [LITV]

6 And He said to me, Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations which the house of Israel is doing here, that I should be far from My sanctuary? But you turn back and you shall see greater abominations.

17 And He said to me, Son of man, have you seen? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah from doing the abominations which they do here? For they have filled the land with violence and have returned to provoke Me to anger. And, behold, they are putting the branch to their nose!
18 And I also will deal with fury. My eye shall not spare, and I will not have pity. And though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.

Ezekiel 9
1 And He cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying, Let the overseers of the city draw near, even each with his destroying weapon in his hand.
2 And, behold, six men were coming from the way of the Upper Gate, which faces north. And each had his shattering weapon in his hand. And one man among them was clothed in linen, and an ink horn of a scribe at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 And the glory of the God of Israel had gone on, from on the cherub where it was on it, to the threshold of the house. And He called to the man clothed in linen with the ink horn of a scribe at his loins.
4 And Jehovah said to him, Pass through in the midst of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem, and mark a mark on the foreheads of the men who are groaning and are mourning over all the abominations that are done in her midst.
5 And He said to those in my hearing, Pass over in the city after him and strike. Do not let your eye spare, and do not have pity.
6 Slay the aged men, the young man, and the virgin, even children, and women, all to destruction. But to every man who has the mark on him, do not come near. And begin from My sanctuary. And they began with the aged men who were before the house.
7 And He said to them, Defile the house and fill the courts with the dying. Go forth! And they went out and killed in the city.
8 And it happened as they struck, and I remained, even I. Then I fell on my face and I cried out and said, Ah, Lord Jehovah! Will You destroy all the remnant of Israel in Your pouring out of Your fury on Jerusalem?
9 And He said to me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and of Judah is very great, and the land is filled with blood, and the city is full of perversity. For they say, Jehovah has forsaken the land; and, Jehovah does not see.
10 And even I, My eye does not spare, and I will not have pity. I will put their way on their head.
11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, with the ink horn at his loins, reported the matter, saying, I have done as You commanded me.

Does this not fit all of Christendom and the corruption that is going on within?

When I say Christendom I'm referring to all those on the face of the earth, that calls themselves Christians and claim to worship the Almighty God in the heavens.

So who really are the two witnesses prophesying to?

Just some thoughts that I'm bouncing around myself.

[mrgalleria]

Alo ha,
Well, I will be watching the news, to see if any men come
and do these things that you forecast for the two witnesses.

In the meantime, I already see in the news how-
US sanctions are causing hardship and distress to Iran (stopped rain), as other countries;

US bailouts have helped others (causing rain);

US wars have killed peoples, races (tribes), tongues, and nations-
(authority over the waters to turn them to blood);

Those who have threatened the US die in a similar fashion
(if anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out from their mouth);

The US has instituted pandemics and plagues
(to strike the earth with every sort of plague);

These things are in the news now.
Bill

[mrgalleria]

2/24/2010-
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61N3AU20100224
"The United States has said it hopes to see sanctions against Iran in a matter of weeks and Israel has pressed Russia to back crippling sanctions"

"These have authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying"
Rev. 11:6

http://infowars.net/articles/january2010/280110Swine.htm
WHO Scientist: Swine Flu Pandemic Was "Completely Exaggerated"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/us/politics/25flu.html
"President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) has declared the swine flu (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/influenza/swine_influenza/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) outbreak a national emergency,"
http://www.unfictional.com/joseph-moshe-mossad-bioweapon-swine-flu-vaccine-westwood
Joseph Moshe (MOSSAD Microbiologist): “Swine flu vaccine is bioweapon”

"...and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as ofter as they wish".
Rev. 11:6

[Eyes & Ears]

2/24/2010-
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61N3AU20100224
"The United States has said it hopes to see sanctions against Iran in a matter of weeks and Israel has pressed Russia to back crippling sanctions"

"These have authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying"
Rev. 11:6

http://infowars.net/articles/january2010/280110Swine.htm
WHO Scientist: Swine Flu Pandemic Was "Completely Exaggerated"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/us/politics/25flu.html
"President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) has declared the swine flu (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/influenza/swine_influenza/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) outbreak a national emergency,"
http://www.unfictional.com/joseph-moshe-mossad-bioweapon-swine-flu-vaccine-westwood
Joseph Moshe (MOSSAD Microbiologist): “Swine flu vaccine is bioweapon”

"...and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as ofter as they wish".
Rev. 11:6


Very interesting and thanks for scriptures also.

I thought it was something how the disaster that could have been caused on human life by that H5N1 vaccine was averted by a Czech Lab deciding to run tests on a dozen ferrets and they all died within days. The WHO was then notified. (Joseph-Moshe info)

Nothing will happen before Jehovah's due time. Prophecy will be fulfilled and many of us alive will experience these things. But none of it will happen before Jehovah's time table. No one can push Jehovah, and no one can stop Jehovah. He does things when he is ready to do them.

The nations will know Jehovah, yes they will, but then the Ark doors will be closed because Jehovah will have SHUT THEM TIGHT. Where will we all be on the Ark or .................................................. .?

This is why he tells us all to STAY AWAKE AND MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS.

Thanks for the links Mr. "G"

E & E

[Molly]

Hi mrgalleria-

Whether the interpretation that you have presented is accurate or not is yet to be seen, but it is worthy of examination simply because it is a view that is outside the box. I appreciate your efforts to explain your view of the two witnesses, etc. While efforts to disprove a point of view may seem abusive, they nevertheless are like a refining fire if that view can withstand and overcome the objections. It has been my view for some time that the generally accepted understandings of most scriptural views are way off base, so I am open to new perspectives if cohesively presented. I'm not saying that I agree with you, but it is an interesting concept and makes the witness symbolic rather than literal.

Even if it turns out that what you have explained is not accurate, you have made some intriguing arguments.

Molly

[watchman]

I really do not want to play host to this sort of nonsense. I am shutting this thread down.