Advertising the Kingdom.

[FutureMan]

"Advertise, advertise, advertise the King and his Kingdom!" this was the stirring cry made at a large convention, from (Judge) Rutherford, the second president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society a decade or so before the second world war.

The preaching work began in ernest, after this stirring cry as never before were the Bible Students so energised to carry out the preaching work.

The Kingdom that was now set up was to be the focal point as now they had a date to directly point to, when this had happened.

The generation that first heard that cry are all but gone now, but the preaching work continues today by 7,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in over 210 countries.

So to advertise the Kingdom, over 403 radio stations were set up around various parts of the world to do this.

But by the end of the second world war, this was replace by the door to door work
first by means of the phonograph and then by literature and direct communicating with the householders of each house.

So after the second world war the emphasis was now placed on the average baptized Jehovah's Witness to bring the Good News by means of Watchtower literature directly to people doors.

By large public preaching formats, such as the radio was push into the back ground and forgotten.

The average Witness was now made responsible to preach the Good News, else they would have bloodguilt on their heads if they were not involved in the door to door work as directed by the organization.

Over the years two things were emphasized in relation to the preaching of the Good News.

(1) was that if you did not involve yourself in this work, you would become blood
guilty for those in your area that was killed during Armageddon.

(2) you would be judged just like that "sluggish slave" that went of and hid the talent, instead of investing it for his master.

During 1960's however television really started making inroads on to the world scene and many Christians groups started taking advantage of this media to spread the gospel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Televangelism

The question at this stage does really need to be asked, why is it the the organization of Jehovah Witnesses themselves not taken advantage of this medium of preaching the Good News and also have discontinued the use of the radio also on top of that, the most effective medium now which is used worldwide by a large population of the world is largely ignored?

Why is this so?

I myself was prevented, yes prevented from proclaiming the Good News on a web site that I had designed for this purpose, to communicate Bible truths.
It was communicated to me by an elder when I told him about the website, that the Society does not approve of anyone having their own website to preach the Good News.
So to do so, would be going against the organization and pushing ahead.

As far as I know the only ones who are allowed to have a web site to do with the organization and the Good News, are those approved by and who are connected to the Watchtower Society itself and it's branches (Bethel homes).

But this medium of spreading the Good News is prohibited to the average Jehovah's Witness in the organization.

Why do these so called "faithful slave" continue to brow beat it members to do the
door to door work when these forms of mediums such as the ( Radio, Television and the Internet) that could reach many people around the world, are largely ignored?

Keep in mind that one of the main ways that early Christians did their ministry was in the public places.

Today the new public place has become the Internet and Television.

Now let us look at early public preachers.

We have most of the prophets from before Jesus time, who by large prophesied in a public way.

Coming to Jesus time, in the initial phase it was John the Baptist who did most of his preaching of repentance to the Jews in a public way.

Jesus Christ himself did most of his preaching and teaching in a public way.

An example of this was the sermon on the mount.

His Apostles after he died did a lot of their preaching in a public way.

The apostle Peter at Pentecost spoke to a large crowd of 3000 people or more.

The apostle Paul preached to a large audience in Athens, to the Greeks.

The disciple Stephen before he was stone to death preached publicly to a large group of people.

So we can see that a lot of the preaching work was done publicly.

So why is this not occurring today among the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses?

[shikinah]

Yes I have often wondered about this, especially when you take into consideration the radio shows they use to have. I think they have a serious fear of the internet, the fear of the sheep venturing to other pastures and finding out more than they should.
Because it really doesnt make any sense. When you look at some of the religious sites available online whiich give talks, prophesies and upto date info with whats in the news today these ones are attracting those who are thirsting. Yet this doesnt explain why they dont use the radio to broadcast except for certain stations which broadcast the circuit assembly during the summer. I remember they aloud that huge print website though, the one which defended the watchtower in the NGO accusation:p


Shikinah

[Jinnvisible]

The main reason the WTBTS doesn`t use the medium of TV and Radio anymore is due to the idea of not wanting to encourage people to use a TV or Radio.

Which begs the question why have an official website in that case.

Perhaps Bethel will benefit from some open discussion on the forum here, with perspectives formerly unrealised.

[SlaveForJah]

Perhaps Bethel will benefit from some open discussion on the forum here, with perspectives formerly unrealised.

Will the real Bethelites please stand up!

I know we've all speculated that some at Bethel lurk here, but I've got a question. Do we actually have any Bethelites as members here? Or does Bethel at least have someone assigned to lurking here and reporting back?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[elihu]

some good points Fm
that would assist them in their work
however
i have to say i admire what the witnesses do, they go face to face with people from every walk of life
they don't hide behind made up names. they are there on the front line with the gospel in their hands and in their mouths.
the kingdom of God is their theme and although it is flawed with false prophecy the basics are delivered personally to mankind, not through some medium like tv or radio but as Christ delivered it person to person
and for that i do admire them.
they show by example that Jehovah is their God, they carry out his commands as individuals as well as part of a group.

however you make a valid point about use of mediums such as tv and radio in that their ability to reach everyone is limited to human resources who deliver literature

But Christ did say something like
the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into the field
so its people he wants as a primary resource to teach the good news of the kingdom and to gather the harvest

elihu

[Jahsdisciple]

If the 42 months are the real last days,then any 'annointed' would be Jesus brothers..and thus the 2 witnesses. This would also mean they would be performing works that would identify them as such.

Like Jesus said" they would performing greater works than these" because the brothers of Jesus would be part of the established Kingdom. Jesus was 'only' showing he was going to be the king of a non established Kingdom.

So,which would merrit more miracles and signs ? Being a King of a not established Kingdom OR being part of a group of people that ARE part of a now established Kingdom that has already conquered one enemy government (satan and demons) and is about to start ruling over the earth.

It stands to reason that the 2 witnesses will do GREATER works than Jesus because the Kingdom is established. Just as the Jews of that period needed to see the miracles of Jesus to know He was going to be the King,MUCH MORE powerful works/miracles will be needed to prove the KINGDOM is NOW established AND that Jesus is ruling.

When that happens,we really will be able to say...with miracles happening from Jesus brothers and co-rulers:"Advertise, advertise, advertise the King and his Kingdom!"

[FutureMan]

some good points Fm
that would assist them in their work
however
i have to say i admire what the witnesses do, they go face to face with people from every walk of life
they don't hide behind made up names. they are there on the front line with the gospel in their hands and in their mouths.
the kingdom of God is their theme and although it is flawed with false prophecy the basics are delivered personally to mankind, not through some medium like tv or radio but as Christ delivered it person to person
and for that i do admire them.
they show by example that Jehovah is their God, they carry out his commands as individuals as well as part of a group.

however you make a valid point about use of mediums such as tv and radio in that their ability to reach everyone is limited to human resources who deliver literature

But Christ did say something like
the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into the field
so its people he wants as a primary resource to teach the good news of the kingdom and to gather the harvest

elihu

Yes it does take courage to go from door to door these days as most people do not like Jehovah's Witnesses coming to their doors, and up and until two years ago, I was one of them.

I have never actually full time pioneered but for a little while when I was young I axillary pioneered for a few months and also a couple of times since then.

My wife her self was a full time pioneer for 2 years, she even went to pioneer school.

But anyway I had a problem, I was very shy and self conscious.

Hard to believe I know, since I can be so out spoken on the Internet, I know.

But I guess that's the advantage of being anonymous on the Internet, of which a cover name provides.

[elihu]

Yes it does take courage to go from door to door these days as most people do not like Jehovah's Witnesses coming to their doors, and up and until two years ago, I was one of them.

I have never actually full time pioneered but for a little while when I was young I axillary pioneered for a few months and also a couple of times since then.

My wife her self was a full time pioneer for 2 years, she even went to pioneer school.

But anyway I had a problem, I was very shy and self conscious.

Hard to believe I know, since I can be so out spoken on the Internet, I know.

But I guess that's the advantage of being anonymous on the Internet, of which a cover name provides.


yes i agree FM

i do agree with the thrust of your post in that they seem to be walking when they could be running and i think the idea of public talks IN PUBLIC PLACES rather than within the Kingdom halls is what needs to happen.
notably John Wesley who left his mark in the area where i live made it his method of preaching, he travelled by foot and by horse all over the north east of england and he was persecuted by church leaders and officials, but he was determined to preach to the poor, and they flocked to hear his words.

and so public preaching will also lead to a rise in anti JWs. but that is what scripture tells us has been a consequence of public proclamation of faith in Christ.


Jahsdisciple i think you are correct the turbo has not kicked in yet and when it does will we know!

when the holy spirit is poured out once again, as it was a pentecost, then No one will be able to say i did not know.

i hope we are all part of those days
come Lord Jesus

elihu

[Jahsdisciple]

when the holy spirit is poured out once again, as it was a pentecost, then No one will be able to say i did not know.

i hope we are all part of those days
come Lord Jesus

elihu

AMEN brother !!

[mrgalleria]

Quote- "Will the real Bethelites please stand up!"

Alo ha,
Do you know how funny this is?
They would not be the double agents, but maybe triple agents.
Because there are people inside who are spies,
so suppose they are spying on us- HAHAHAHAHA!

A double agent spy inside the WTS got info out to a friend of mine
on the progress of my DF, in late 2001.
It took them 2 1/2 months to come back with their decision.
The info they got out was that the WTS had never seen a case like mine,
but that they were going to support the decision of the elders of my congregation.

So I knew the WTS's decision before the local elders did- HAHAHAHAHA.
Sorry, lost it for a minute there.
Bill

[carib-jim]

Many of the concerns raised is this thread can easily be resolved by realizing that the preaching work done today by Jehovah's Witnesses is not in fulfillment of Bible prophesy. As distasteful and unpalatable as that fact may be for those of us reared in the teachings of this organization the simple fact of the matter is that the bible does not support such a position. Rather the bible teaches that the preaching foretold by Christ at Matthew 24:14 happens in a short period of time immediately PRECEDING the Great Tribulation. It occurs during a period of Global distress as prophetically indicated at Revelation 11:3 that escalates into a great tribulation that is not to be repeated.
In a previous post I stated that this event was foreshadowed by the vast mixed crowd that accompanied Israel out of Egypt. If we were to pay attention to the prophetic drama we would see the true meanings of these prophesies and would not be so easily deceived by Satan's sleight of hand.

[Jeshurun]

The info they got out was that the WTS had never seen a case like mine, Musta been your interpretation of the two witnesses....

[LonelySheep]

Many of the concerns raised is this thread can easily be resolved by realizing that the preaching work done today by Jehovah's Witnesses is not in fulfillment of Bible prophesy. As distasteful and unpalatable as that fact may be for those of us reared in the teachings of this organization the simple fact of the matter is that the bible does not support such a position. Rather the bible teaches that the preaching foretold by Christ at Matthew 24:14 happens in a short period of time immediately PRECEDING the Great Tribulation. It occurs during a period of Global distress as prophetically indicated at Revelation 11:3 that escalates into a great tribulation that is not to be repeated.
In a previous post I stated that this event was foreshadowed by the vast mixed crowd that accompanied Israel out of Egypt. If we were to pay attention to the prophetic drama we would see the true meanings of these prophesies and would not be so easily deceived by Satan's sleight of hand.

What you say about the preaching work JW's do may or may not be the case.

But I for one will continue to do it. Why? Well Jesus commanded it. Please tell me where Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to limit their preaching work to a specific time period or place. Go therefore and make disciples of me.... (you know the rest). Secondly the preaching work is the ONLY part of JW activity I really enjoy. The meetings are as dull as dishwater, especially with the new understanding that is opening up to us. But its great to open the bible and use it. I used to be a pioneer and I still love the service and without bragging its one of the few things in life that I can say to myself that I'm pretty good at. Thirdly, the preaching work prepares us for bigger and better things in the future. To sharpen us.

No matter what anyone says to de-cry the preaching work I'm gonna do it. Yes perhaps what we are doing is only a shadow of what Jah has in mind, but if it wasn't for someone coming to my door I would never of learnt the things I did. Okay in hindsight, some of it is rubbish, but the basics are there and I for one appreciate the fact that somebody could be bothered to come week after week to teach me.

[carib-jim]

What you say about the preaching work JW's do may or may not be the case.

But I for one will continue to do it. Why? Well Jesus commanded it. Please tell me where Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to limit their preaching work to a specific time period or place. Go therefore and make disciples of me.... (you know the rest). Secondly the preaching work is the ONLY part of JW activity I really enjoy. The meetings are as dull as dishwater, especially with the new understanding that is opening up to us. But its great to open the bible and use it. I used to be a pioneer and I still love the service and without bragging its one of the few things in life that I can say to myself that I'm pretty good at. Thirdly, the preaching work prepares us for bigger and better things in the future. To sharpen us.

No matter what anyone says to de-cry the preaching work I'm gonna do it. Yes perhaps what we are doing is only a shadow of what Jah has in mind, but if it wasn't for someone coming to my door I would never of learnt the things I did. Okay in hindsight, some of it is rubbish, but the basics are there and I for one appreciate the fact that somebody could be bothered to come week after week to teach me.

If only it were possible to completely convey ones thought in so little space.

The comments are not to discourage any from sharing their faith with others, after all that is what Christ commanded his disciples, both the spirit anointed and the non-anointed, to do.
Rather the comments are intended to encourage those that are toiling under the mistaken understanding that the WTBTS is Jehovah's visible earthly organization, to see things differently especially in light of the prophetic drama. If there were difficulty discerning the meaning of the prophesies (and there certainly is) Jehovah has provided a guide in the form of the historical record so that we may test our interpretation.
The WTBTS teaches that the world wide preaching prophesied in Matthew 24:14 began in the early part of the 20th century. Since the bible time-line for the fulfillment of these prophesies makes this impossible then this teaching must be false. Since the teaching is false then the concerns raised by some in this thread are pointless, being based on false premises.

[elihu]

Hi carib-jim,

is there a time line for the preaching work to start and stop and then start again.

when did it start ? with Christ then continue with his 1st century followers ?
when did it stop? the great apostasy?
and when will it start again?
just trying to understand what your saying.

elihu

[carib-jim]

Hi carib-jim,

is there a time line for the preaching work to start and stop and then start again.

when did it start ? with Christ then continue with his 1st century followers ?
when did it stop? the great apostasy?
and when will it start again?
just trying to understand what your saying.

elihu

Lets use the prophetic drama. Israel went into Egypt as a small tribe and after several hundred years came out as a nation. On their way out they were joined by the vast mixed crowd.

Lets apply it to the Israel of God. Beginning with the apostasy that started while the apostles were still alive, Israel went into slavery/exile into Spiritual Egypt/Babylon The Great for several centuries. During this time its numbers increased until it is a nation, that is the number of persons chosen is almost complete (144,000). At the events of Matthew 24:14 the remaining members are joined by a Great Crowd out of all nations. These leave spiritual Egypt / Babylon the great at the out break of the Great tribulation. The wold wide preaching work takes place just before the departure from Egypt/Babylon the Great.

Hopefully this adds clarity to what I've said.

[billy2]

Advertising the Kingdom from my perspective would be a balance of speaking and doing - living "the way" as an example to our families and neighbors - the wto seems over balanced on the "speaking" part to me - i have found from personal experience that once you become a jw then you are ignored, judged and shunned - many of the jws are not practicing the love which is the identiying mark of true christians

[Jahsdisciple]

Advertising the Kingdom from my perspective would be a balance of speaking and doing - living "the way" as an example to our families and neighbors - the wto seems over balanced on the "speaking" part to me - i have found from personal experience that once you become a jw then you are ignored, judged and shunned - many of the jws are not practicing the love which is the identiying mark of true christians

Many people who are JWs are injured people. If they judge themselves based on "preaching' as the only way to have personal value,then if you dont do what they do to have any feelings of self worth..then they arent going to give you something they dont give themselves.

Many JW are conditional about self acceptance. "If i preach,then i have value".."if i do my prestudy or answer up,this proves i have value". Not everyone is like this,but unless you know where your true value comes from..you will seek to establish your value some other way.

Works of 'value',like preaching etc... dont make you a valuable person. But they do,if you know no other way.

If they judge and critise you,then you can count on this being a reflection of what they have already done to themselves. "out of the hearts abundance" of how they treat themselves....is what they will do to you.

So many are doing the best they can with what little they know about their true value.

[Tsaphah]

OK, let me add my three cents to this discussion. If that's what it is. I'm seeing a lot of personal opinions expressed here. There also seems to be some interpretation thrown in.

Let's start at the beginning of the post. “Advertise, advertise, advertise...”. Sometimes people get the wrong impression or misunderstanding in the use of words. So let's take a look at the word and it's etymology.

advertise
early 15c., "to take notice of," from M.Fr. advertiss-, prp. stem of a(d)vertir "to warn," from L. advertere "turn toward," from ad- "toward" + vertere "to turn" see versus). Sense shifted to "to give notice to others, warn" (late 15c.) by influence of advertisement. Original meaning remains in advert "to give attention to." Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

Now let's give attention to the question of, WHO is to advertise this message? Was the responsibility given to anybody and everyone? What is the product or notice that was to be given? The Greek word used was, euaggelizo (yü-än-ge-lē'-zō), to bring good news, to announce glad tidings. It incorporates two Greek words, one of which may be seen in the pronunciation, angel, or messenger. It is made up of eu (yoo) and aggelos (ang'-el-os) = to be well off + a messenger, envoy, one who is sent.

Let's look at who these messengers were. In some cases, they were “sons of the [true] God”, angels. (Job 1:6) Some were ordinary people. (1 Sam 31:9) The Hebrew word here is basar, which is translated to Greek as euaggelizo, to bring good news. Although in this case it was only good news to the Philistines. It was bad news to the Israelites. Once again, it is speaking of someone assigned to bring the good news. At Luke 1:19, it was a son of God, the angel Gabriel. Then John the Baptist is chosen as a messenger of good news. (Lk 3:18) Also, Jesus was identified as a messenger of good news. (Lk 4:18), (Mr 1:14-15)

There came a time when Jesus said that others would be preachers of the good news. (Mr 10:29, 13:10) And finally, he gave instructions to others to do the same. (Mr 16:15), (Mt 24:14) But, we have to address this question again. WHO were commanded to preach this good news? The most telling example is in Mark 16:15. Who was Jesus speaking to? In the long version, several codex manuscripts, say; “But later he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table, and he reproached their lack of faith and hardheartedness, because they did not believe those who had beheld him now raised up from the dead. And he said to them: “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.” (Mr 16:14-15) From these scriptures, we can see that the responsibility of the preaching work was given to the apostles. But what should they preach and how were they to accomplish this? Acts 15:1-29, ...“After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.” (15:7) NASB After another dispute about what should be preached, Paul said, "But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.” (Acts 20:24)

From these scriptures it is plain that there was an arrangement with which the good news was to be preached, or advertised. Now you think I'm going to say that arrangement is the WTB&TS. No, I am not. I leave it to you to answer that question. All I can say is that, Jehovah and Jesus choose who that is to be. And I will say that the WTB&TS has a right and responsibility to make sure that the message stays the same when it is presented. Just as any organization that presents, advertises a product, they are held responsible for that presentation. Do you thing your company that employes you will allow you to say whatever you want about their product? NOT!

Anyone employed in advertising knows that only headquarters, and the advertising department are responsible for presenting product with one voice.

Tsaphah

[FutureMan]

And I will say that the WTB&TS has a right and responsibility to make sure that the message stays the same when it is presented. Just as any organization that presents, advertises a product, they are held responsible for that presentation. Do you thing your company that employes you will allow you to say whatever you want about their product? NOT!

Anyone employed in advertising knows that only headquarters, and the advertising department are responsible for presenting product with one voice.

Tsaphah

And so that is the problem here is it not, how this message is to be delivered and what is actually the content of that message.

For instance if we now believe that the Kingdom has not being set up officially as yet, then how can we be preaching and advertising what we do not believe as I think that most of us here on this forum no longer believe that the Kingdom was actually set up in 1914, but is still to come.

So what will we advertise, the Kingdom yet to come or the Kingdom that is suppose to have be set up in 1914?

The message of course that the Watchtower society wants all their members to preach is that the Kingdom is already being set up as a reality in 1914.

To do opposite would be to bring the wrath of the Elders on to you in your local congregation, if they find out that you are preaching a message where the Kingdom is still yet to come as a theocratic government.

And so the real question is, if we believe something is not true, then how can we go on preaching it?

[elihu]

And so that is the problem here is it not, how this message is to be delivered and what is actually the content of that message.

For instance if we now believe that the Kingdom has not being set up officially as yet, then how can we be preaching and advertising what we do not believe as I think that most of us here on this forum no longer believe that the Kingdom was actually set up in 1914, but is still to come.

So what will we advertise, the Kingdom yet to come or the Kingdom that is suppose to have be set up in 1914?

The message of course that the Watchtower society wants all their members to preach is that the Kingdom is already being set up as a reality in 1914.

To do opposite would be to bring the wrath of the Elders on to you in your local congregation, if they find out that you are preaching a message where the Kingdom is still yet to come as a theocratic government.

And so the real question is, if we believe something is not true, then how can we go on preaching it?




Futureman what you have said is the absolute root of this discussion.
advertise What?

that the kingdom is born since 1914 and Christ is invisibly present and the WTO are the f&D slave

or Christ is the saviour of the world, the kingdom is yet to come, Christ is yet to return and the F&D slave is yet to be selected.




And so the real question is, if we believe something is not true, then how can we go on preaching it?


this is exactly the difficulty that i have when speaking to people about christ, a great deal of what i have learned,and was an integrate part of my understanding, is wrong.

take it away and it leaves only one important thing ,Christ died for our sins , so that all those believing in him might not die but have everlasting life.

elihu

[SlaveForJah]

Nice thoughts Tsaphah, FM, and elihu.

I agree with you FM about what the commission to preach entails. But I also have a question. Why are we even concerned about the "Advertise. Advertise. Advertise." speech from the Judge? I mean, while those may be big words to JW initiates, do they really have any meaning for followers of Christ?

We don't really preach because the Judge told us to, do we? Wasn't the Christian commission to preach given to us directly from our Lord?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[truthseeker]

Advertising the Kingdom from my perspective would be a balance of speaking and doing - living "the way" as an example to our families and neighbors - the wto seems over balanced on the "speaking" part to me - i have found from personal experience that once you become a jw then you are ignored, judged and shunned - many of the jws are not practicing the love which is the identiying mark of true christians



Billy2
That’s quite a statement: Personally I have been around JW congregations for 50 years, and have found the majority profoundly loving in word and deed!
Now have many been judgmental Oh yea!!! But that’s not necessarily there fault, they have been influenced by the man of lawlessness.
But my personal opinion is that most JW are very kind people and humble, think of the pressure from the societies they live in. As in; Holidays - Immorality – Nationalism – Prejudice in there preaching work – the list is long.
I think it takes a special person to take the mantle being identified with JEHOVAH!!! And then have satan picking at you until he’s abysses.
No doubt about it!!!

[billy2]

Billy2
That’s quite a statement: Personally I have been around JW congregations for 50 years, and have found the majority profoundly loving in word and deed!
Now have many been judgmental Oh yea!!! But that’s not necessarily there fault, they have been influenced by the man of lawlessness.
But my personal opinion is that most JW are very kind people and humble, think of the pressure from the societies they live in. As in; Holidays - Immorality – Nationalism – Prejudice in there preaching work – the list is long.
I think it takes a special person to take the mantle being identified with JEHOVAH!!! And then have satan picking at you until he’s abysses.
No doubt about it!!!

Hello truthseeker

Im glad for you that you have found love and acceptance in the congregations - i have heard others say similar - I have even seen with my own eyes others around me being accepted and develop friendships within the congregation - i also see many like me being left out and ignored - i have noticed if one is a brother or in a couple situation there is more of an effort made - being a single sister makes others suspicious of you in couple world - many of the witnesses have familes in the org and they all tend to hang out together - i gave up everything to come back to the org - my family, my life, i became single, stopped celebrating all the holidays , gave up my active social life and lost my son in death and hardly anyone wanted to be friends with me and that was before i started questioning doctrines

[billy2]

Many people who are JWs are injured people. If they judge themselves based on "preaching' as the only way to have personal value,then if you dont do what they do to have any feelings of self worth..then they arent going to give you something they dont give themselves.

Many JW are conditional about self acceptance. "If i preach,then i have value".."if i do my prestudy or answer up,this proves i have value". Not everyone is like this,but unless you know where your true value comes from..you will seek to establish your value some other way.

Works of 'value',like preaching etc... dont make you a valuable person. But they do,if you know no other way.

If they judge and critise you,then you can count on this being a reflection of what they have already done to themselves. "out of the hearts abundance" of how they treat themselves....is what they will do to you.

So many are doing the best they can with what little they know about their true value.

i think thats exactly how it is JD - you've hit the nail on the head - i understand that most jw's dont even realize it - i am of no value to them because i dont fit the image of what they have been condtioned to value - I have a totally different perspective of what a christian is to most of those in the hall -

[billy2]

Futureman what you have said is the absolute root of this discussion.
advertise What?

that the kingdom is born since 1914 and Christ is invisibly present and the WTO are the f&D slave

or Christ is the saviour of the world, the kingdom is yet to come, Christ is yet to return and the F&D slave is yet to be selected.




this is exactly the difficulty that i have when speaking to people about christ, a great deal of what i have learned,and was an integrate part of my understanding, is wrong.

take it away and it leaves only one important thing ,Christ died for our sins , so that all those believing in him might not die but have everlasting life.

elihu

same for me too elihu and futureman

when i found out the change in the "generation" doctrine after being out of the org for a number of years - it shook me to my core - because i realized if the society was wrong on that one - which i dogmatically preached for 15 years - than maybe i better take another look at everything i have accepted as "truth" - when i read the scripture in Matthew about Jesus return - the signs he gives means he is near not arrived - whereas the wt teaches the signs mean he has arrived - the old doctrine of the "generation" being the ones who witness "all these things" would still make sense - the org's present doctrine doesnt make sense to me - so how can i advertise it or preach it - to me the kingdom is more about loving ones self and loving ones neighbor - and putting this into practice and helping others to see the kingdom of God is a way of life to live now with a wonderful hope for the future of everlasting life - to me it doesnt matter if that everlasting life is here on the earth or in heaven - it will all be good

i dont feel much confidence in prophecy interpretation at this time to insist that other people must accept the wt's interpretation and then down the track be a totally different interpretation - as their track record of false interpretaion is not very confidence building

the self promoting f&s dont seem very discreet or faithful to me at this time either

[Molly]

Billy2 and JD-

I agree with your posts about the brothers and sisters being judgmental and their lack of love. And I do think that JD hit the nail on the head. Jehovah's Witnesses are taught some pretty warped and disgusting views. Billy mentioned that single persons were often ignored, but it was even worse for those who would have a "worldly" mate. Then, you wouldn't be invited anywhere and noone would associate with you outside the KH because you were still considered tainted by the world.

It is true that there are plenty of loving individuals at the KHs but they have shackled their love due to some of the idiotic notions promoted by the the congregations. I don't think that they are printed in the publications but they exist nonetheless with the concept of bad association even within the congregation. Others, as JD mentioned, have such low self esteem that they are incapable of exhibiting the love for others when they don't love themself. The concept of loving ones' neighbor as oneself is almost nonexistent among the brothers.

Molly

[Molly]

Many of the concerns raised is this thread can easily be resolved by realizing that the preaching work done today by Jehovah's Witnesses is not in fulfillment of Bible prophesy. As distasteful and unpalatable as that fact may be for those of us reared in the teachings of this organization the simple fact of the matter is that the bible does not support such a position. Rather the bible teaches that the preaching foretold by Christ at Matthew 24:14 happens in a short period of time immediately PRECEDING the Great Tribulation. It occurs during a period of Global distress as prophetically indicated at Revelation 11:3 that escalates into a great tribulation that is not to be repeated.
In a previous post I stated that this event was foreshadowed by the vast mixed crowd that accompanied Israel out of Egypt. If we were to pay attention to the prophetic drama we would see the true meanings of these prophesies and would not be so easily deceived by Satan's sleight of hand.

carib-jim-

I agree with what you have stated here.

While there has been a preaching work ongoing since the first century, that is not the preaching work that Revelation is referring to, in fact it says that they are to "prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings."(Rev. 10:11) One of the biggest reasons that it is not the same is that the preaching that has gone on since the apostles died has been one of misinformation. False prophets entered and misled many from as early as the first century. The original writings have been altered, some are of dubious validity, and many were destroyed. Writings were translated with bias or on purpose to promote certain concepts or doctrines. What we now have as scripture is not necessarily reliable. Some might say that "all scripture is inspired," but in the first century letters sent to various brother or congregations would not have been considered to be either scripture or inspired. They were only letters amongst brothers. Scripture at that time would have been considered as Genesis through Malachi.

Then, over the centuries, though there was preaching going on, it came to be under the Catholic Church, which we all know changed the understanding of much of Jesus' simple message to a much more complicated message with the introduction of Babylonish doctrines and other practises that were pagan. Even after the Reformation, most religions retained many of the pagan concepts. In that area, Jehovah's Witnesses have done much to remove the pagan practises that were insidious in the other religions. Nevertheless, they have not preached "the truth" either wiwth their false prophesies. Perhaps that is why (Luke 18:8) Jesus asked, "When the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?" It is because today very few have the true faith. Does it really exist today? Certainly not amongst any organized religion. Perhaps that is also why the holy spirit will be poured out in order for the sons of the kingdom so they can actually "know Jehovah." At Luke 12:41-48, Jesus explains what he will find on his return. Verses 47 and 48 show that those that understood but did not do would receive many strokes, but those that did not understand will only get a few. The one found doing Jesus' will will be appointed over all his belongings. That, of course, is in the (near) future. So, noone is yet equipped to present the truth about the good news, but they will be after Jesus returns, and then we will see the preaching done in earnest.

Molly

[Tsaphah]

And so that is the problem here is it not, how this message is to be delivered and what is actually the content of that message.

For instance if we now believe that the Kingdom has not being set up officially as yet, then how can we be preaching and advertising what we do not believe as I think that most of us here on this forum no longer believe that the Kingdom was actually set up in 1914, but is still to come.

So what will we advertise, the Kingdom yet to come or the Kingdom that is suppose to have be set up in 1914?

The message of course that the Watchtower society wants all their members to preach is that the Kingdom is already being set up as a reality in 1914.

To do opposite would be to bring the wrath of the Elders on to you in your local congregation, if they find out that you are preaching a message where the Kingdom is still yet to come as a theocratic government.

And so the real question is, if we believe something is not true, then how can we go on preaching it?



Yes, FutureMan. It is a problem with the WTB&TS who claim to be the ONLY representatives of the Kingdom message. The ONLY APPROVED messengers. It's like Toyota saying they are the only correct automobile manufacturers. Their automobiles are the only ones safe enough to get you to your final destination. But, the fact is, they have the right to make that statement, whether right or wrong. They will be held responsible, not the individual workers.

That is why it is very important to remember how we teach. We can continue preaching and teaching about Jesus and Jehovah. This teaching is not about interpreting or guessing about prophesy. We are responsible for teaching the overall message about the Kingdom and what it will accomplish. We are responsible for teaching the TRUTH and nothing more. If what remnants we have of God's word are the only teaching materials, than that is what we use. It is not our responsibility to expand and “go beyond the things written.” (1 Cor 4:6) We should not want to become one such as some of the Corinthian congregation.

I read (say, red) a paraphrase of this scripture that I feel applies quite well in what we are discussing here. This is a commentary of what Paul had written to the Corinthian Christians.
“Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God. Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apollos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” in order that YOU may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other.” (1 Cor 4:3-6)

“You have been engaged in strife about the merits and position of your teachers. Consider for a moment what they are. They have no authority of their own; they only bear Christ's messages.” (1 Cor 4:1) The paraphrase continues, “In speaking of the folly of these divisions I have used only the names of Apollos and myself; but the same principles apply to your attitude to all other teachers. Why do some of you pride yourselves on being better than others? None of you has anything that he did not receive. You boast as if you had all possible wisdom. Would that it were so, that we might share it. It looks as if we who are Apostles were the least worthy of all God's servants, a spectacle for men and angels. You are wise and honourable; we are foolish and contemptible. We suffer and toil, returning blessing for cursing; and are looked upon as outcasts to this day.” (1 Cor 4:6-13)

I may ask, where would you be today if you had not studied with someone from the WTB&TS and the literature provided to help you understand God's word?

John makes a good point about what we should be teaching. “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 Jn 5:13) These are the main teaching points. Whether the end comes today, tomorrow, or in the future, we must teach about Jehovah and Jesus and the “coming kingdom”. Tomorrow may never come, in this system, for some of us. (Mt 6:34) Today is more important for us to speak of God's Kingdom and what is to come. To give hope to the downhearted and oppressed. (Ro 8:25, 15:12)

Tsaphah

[elihu]

John makes a good point about what we should be teaching. “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 Jn 5:13) These are the main teaching points. Whether the end comes today, tomorrow, or in the future, we must teach about Jehovah and Jesus and the “coming kingdom”. Tomorrow may never come, in this system, for some of us. (Mt 6:34) Today is more important for us to speak of God's Kingdom and what is to come. To give hope to the downhearted and oppressed. (Ro 8:25, 15:12)

Tsaphah


oh yes that is what we can do and should do

elihu

[steff]

Many of the concerns raised is this thread can easily be resolved by realizing that the preaching work done today by Jehovah's Witnesses is not in fulfillment of Bible prophesy. As distasteful and unpalatable as that fact may be for those of us reared in the teachings of this organization the simple fact of the matter is that the bible does not support such a position. Rather the bible teaches that the preaching foretold by Christ at Matthew 24:14 happens in a short period of time immediately PRECEDING the Great Tribulation. It occurs during a period of Global distress as prophetically indicated at Revelation 11:3 that escalates into a great tribulation that is not to be repeated.
In a previous post I stated that this event was foreshadowed by the vast mixed crowd that accompanied Israel out of Egypt. If we were to pay attention to the prophetic drama we would see the true meanings of these prophesies and would not be so easily deceived by Satan's sleight of hand.

Welcome to the board, Carib-Jim.
I must agree with you - it would be very far-fetched to say thet thanks to JW good news it proclaimed everywhere... what about china? most of islamic countries? what about most of india?
Long way to go and in the same time impossible for humans to achieve without "green light" from Jehovah and Jesus.

steff

[steff]

What you say about the preaching work JW's do may or may not be the case.

But I for one will continue to do it. Why? Well Jesus commanded it. Please tell me where Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to limit their preaching work to a specific time period or place. Go therefore and make disciples of me.... (you know the rest). Secondly the preaching work is the ONLY part of JW activity I really enjoy. The meetings are as dull as dishwater, especially with the new understanding that is opening up to us. But its great to open the bible and use it. I used to be a pioneer and I still love the service and without bragging its one of the few things in life that I can say to myself that I'm pretty good at. Thirdly, the preaching work prepares us for bigger and better things in the future. To sharpen us.

No matter what anyone says to de-cry the preaching work I'm gonna do it. Yes perhaps what we are doing is only a shadow of what Jah has in mind, but if it wasn't for someone coming to my door I would never of learnt the things I did. Okay in hindsight, some of it is rubbish, but the basics are there and I for one appreciate the fact that somebody could be bothered to come week after week to teach me.


I so envy you.... I never enjoyed it.... I couldn't. Maybe I was too young. Now I'm afraid to start again.
But with a little help I'm going to have a Bible study with my friend.

steff

[steff]

Hello truthseeker

Im glad for you that you have found love and acceptance in the congregations - i have heard others say similar - I have even seen with my own eyes others around me being accepted and develop friendships within the congregation - i also see many like me being left out and ignored - i have noticed if one is a brother or in a couple situation there is more of an effort made - being a single sister makes others suspicious of you in couple world - many of the witnesses have familes in the org and they all tend to hang out together - i gave up everything to come back to the org - my family, my life, i became single, stopped celebrating all the holidays , gave up my active social life and lost my son in death and hardly anyone wanted to be friends with me and that was before i started questioning doctrines

I'm very sorry, Billy2
We all have some bad memories. I didn't loose a son - never had one so can't imagine what you went through.
What I know about people is that we don't always have this strength to be around troubled person if we have no good advice.
JW are just people - they try and fall. Think about it. I don't try to defend them - I got a huge load as well but it could help you feel better if you understand.
It helped me.

steff

[shikinah]

What you say about the preaching work JW's do may or may not be the case.

But I for one will continue to do it. Why? Well Jesus commanded it. Please tell me where Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to limit their preaching work to a specific time period or place. Go therefore and make disciples of me.... (you know the rest). Secondly the preaching work is the ONLY part of JW activity I really enjoy. The meetings are as dull as dishwater, especially with the new understanding that is opening up to us. But its great to open the bible and use it. I used to be a pioneer and I still love the service and without bragging its one of the few things in life that I can say to myself that I'm pretty good at. Thirdly, the preaching work prepares us for bigger and better things in the future. To sharpen us.

No matter what anyone says to de-cry the preaching work I'm gonna do it. Yes perhaps what we are doing is only a shadow of what Jah has in mind, but if it wasn't for someone coming to my door I would never of learnt the things I did. Okay in hindsight, some of it is rubbish, but the basics are there and I for one appreciate the fact that somebody could be bothered to come week after week to teach me.

I agree that the preaching work has, is and will be important in the future. I guess it will change according to times and unfolding prophesy, but without it I'd be lost and I doubt we'd be on this site discussing the subject:)


Blessings
Shikinah

[shikinah]

Hello truthseeker

Im glad for you that you have found love and acceptance in the congregations - i have heard others say similar - I have even seen with my own eyes others around me being accepted and develop friendships within the congregation - i also see many like me being left out and ignored - i have noticed if one is a brother or in a couple situation there is more of an effort made - being a single sister makes others suspicious of you in couple world - many of the witnesses have familes in the org and they all tend to hang out together - i gave up everything to come back to the org - my family, my life, i became single, stopped celebrating all the holidays , gave up my active social life and lost my son in death and hardly anyone wanted to be friends with me and that was before i started questioning doctrines

Your not alone sister, I fully understand where your coming from. I dont care what people say, but single parents are treated differently. The very ones which need the support are the least cared for.
But Jehovah hears our plea, as they overlook scriptual doctrine where it states, that there duty is to care for the widows and the fatherless boy.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth x

[elihu]

Many of the concerns raised is this thread can easily be resolved by realizing that the preaching work done today by Jehovah's Witnesses is not in fulfillment of Bible prophesy. As distasteful and unpalatable as that fact may be for those of us reared in the teachings of this organization the simple fact of the matter is that the bible does not support such a position. Rather the bible teaches that the preaching foretold by Christ at Matthew 24:14 happens in a short period of time immediately PRECEDING the Great Tribulation. It occurs during a period of Global distress as prophetically indicated at Revelation 11:3 that escalates into a great tribulation that is not to be repeated.
In a previous post I stated that this event was foreshadowed by the vast mixed crowd that accompanied Israel out of Egypt. If we were to pay attention to the prophetic drama we would see the true meanings of these prophesies and would not be so easily deceived by Satan's sleight of hand.

Hi carib-jim
and welcome.

yes i can see the relationship between events pertaining to Gods people being in BTG and getting out of her.
Get out of her my people lest you share in her sins is heralded somehow at some specific point in time.
with regard to the timing of the good news of the kingdom christ did say

"and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations and then the end will come"

with regard to the timing he said after giving a brief outline of things to come

"assuredly i say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"

including the world wide preaching.

and so i agree with you that the work empowered by the outpouring holy sprirt has not taken place yet
however to be in a position to recieve that empowerment we must be trying to spread at least the basics of scripture to people in whatever ways we are able to do so.

notable the faithful and discrete slave when selected is already providing some level of spriritual food to Gods household before being appointed

"who is the faithful and discrete slave whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?

blessed is that servant, who his master will find so doing when he comes"

"....assuredly i say o you he will gird himself and have them sit down and eat, and will come and serve them"

so the way i see it is that we must be in the race to win the prize, and Jehovahs witnesess are running in the race but have been lead off course by false prophecy.
does that mean that they will not be selected by Christ?
only he knows that.

elihu

[Jahsdisciple]

so the way i see it is that we must be in the race to win the prize, and Jehovahs witnesess are running in the race but have been lead off course by false prophecy.
does that mean that they will not be selected by Christ?
only he knows that.

elihu

Jesus disciples were mistaken about prophecy as well,expecting things that were wrong,yet their preaching and worship were acceptable to both Jah and Jesus...and they were being directed in this work dispite these misunderstandings. Understanding prophecy isnt the way a true christian is identified.

what about Daniel,he didnt even know what he was writing about,so was his worship acceptable to Jah because he didnt understand prophecy correctly ?

[SWORDOFJAH]

Jehovah's Witness have helped thousands of people to come and know Jehovah and his purposes. Many have left practices that displeases Jehovah. JW'S are small compare to main religions,but their biblical education makes them truly champion of the truth. JW'S are really accomplishing what was commanded by Jesus. Matt. 28:19,20.

[FutureMan]

Jehovah's Witness have helped thousands of people to come and know Jehovah and his purposes. Many have left practices that displeases Jehovah. JW'S are small compare to main religions,but their biblical education makes them truly champion of the truth. JW'S are really accomplishing what was commanded by Jesus. Matt. 28:19,20.

Ah yes, there goes that word again, the "truth".

The truth really is that all these signs that we see happening now are a prelude to the Kingdom, and not during the last hundred hundred years of the Kingdom being set up.

When we go to a court of law to testify as a witness, they make you swear on the Bible, so that you tell "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"

When witnesses go to the door with the Bible, are they telling "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"?

[elihu]

Jesus disciples were mistaken about prophecy as well,expecting things that were wrong,yet their preaching and worship were acceptable to both Jah and Jesus...and they were being directed in this work dispite these misunderstandings. Understanding prophecy isnt the way a true christian is identified.

what about Daniel,he didnt even know what he was writing about,so was his worship acceptable to Jah because he didnt understand prophecy correctly ?


hi jahsdisciple

yes i agree they have sound doctrine and i would probably be ignorant of Jehovah if it were not for their efforts in proclaiming the kingdom.

however what i was trying to convey was at the moment they preach what they believe to be the truth about prophecy which they believe has been fulfilled (the invisible parousia)
now when that teaching is challenged by sound scripture what do they do?
do they examine scripture with an mind that is open to the scriptures, or do they simply retort with WTO rhetoric?

at some point in time they will have to come face to face with the reality that Christ is not invisibly present and their organisation has not been selected as the F&D slave.
i sincerely hope that most of them will have woken up before he returns and so are waiting for him with their lamps burning.

so it was not my intention to imply that the witnesses will not be selected but that only christ will know who is delivering proper food at the proper time
in fact if we think about it the fact that scripture tells us that a requirement for selection is "proper food at the Proper time" is in itself a strong indication that improper food will have been delivered at the incorrect time.

elihu

[Jahsdisciple]

Ah yes, there goes that word again, the "truth".

The truth really is that all these signs that we see happening now are a prelude to the Kingdom, and not during the last hundred hundred years of the Kingdom being set up.

When we go to a court of law to testify as a witness, they make you swear on the Bible, so that you tell "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"

When witnesses go to the door with the Bible, are they telling "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"?

Did Jesus disciples have the same,even when they were with him ? He didnt correct them all either,even though he could have told them the whole truth.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Yes the truth. JW'S are the only group sharing the truth about Jehovah and his purposes. No other religion entity has the truth like JW'S. JW'S are truly advertising the kingdom.

[Tsaphah]

Ah yes, there goes that word again, the "truth".

When we go to a court of law to testify as a witness, they make you swear on the Bible, so that you tell "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"

When witnesses go to the door with the Bible, are they telling "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"?

In the majority of cases, yes, they tell the Bible truths. As in the courts of law, sometimes the witnesses swear they will tell the "whole truth and nothing but the truth", but they don't. The jury has to distinguish which is which. The same holds true in most Christian Churches. They think they are telling the truth, but they're not. They could actually pass a lie detector test. The same holds true for believers of God's word. Do YOU believe this to be true? You have to separate the Bible's truth from the opinions. "Truth in advertising."
(Jn 17:17)

[FutureMan]

Did Jesus disciples have the same,even when they were with him ? He didnt correct them all either,even though he could have told them the whole truth.

Tell me Jahsdisciple in all honesty, were Jesus apostles who were under the influence of God's Holy Spirit going around and telling people what is not "truth"?

When I was in the "organization" as one of Jehovah's witnesses, much to my shame I was telling people untruths, particularly about when the Kingdom was established in 1914, and about the understanding that I had, which was the current understanding of the Watchtower Society who claim to be under the direction of God's Holy Spirit.

Since that time that I preached this understanding at the doors, it changed three times.

These were just some of the untruths that I told in the name of the organization of "Jehovah's Witnesses".

[Anthony]

11-1-95 WT"Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah's people have at times speculated about the time when the "great tribulation" would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we "bring a heart of wisdom in," not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we "count our days" in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term "generation" as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics. In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: "A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits . . . It is not a zone of dates.” … Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways…Is anything to be gained, then, by looking for dates or by speculating about the literal lifetime of a "generation"? Does our more precise viewpoint on "this generation" mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all!

Rather than saying that WTS or the GB incorrectly promoted a wrong teaching the 95 WT states “Jehovah's people” made the false assumption. This implies that the followers misunderstood or wrongly speculated, shifting blame from the leaders that promoted the teaching. But who is it that said the following?

"In Jesus' day, some of the disciples who heard his words, and others of his contemporaries, survived to live through the final "tribulation" on the Jewish system of things. They were the "generation" of Jesus' time. At this writing, in the United States alone there are more than 10,000,000 persons still living who were old enough to observe "a beginning of pangs of distress" in 1914-1918. Some of these may still survive quite a number of years. Yet Jesus assures us that, before "this generation" passes away, he will come as "Son of man" to execute judgment on Satan's system of things. (Matthew 24:8, 21, 37-39)" "Let Your Kingdom Come" 1981

Also the term 'speculated' is an understatement, a more honest term would be 'strongly emphasized'. 5-1-68 WT"Some of the generation that discerned the beginning of the time of the end in 1914 will still be alive on earth to witness the end of this present wicked system of things at the battle of Armageddon. -Rev. 16:14, 16." 7-1-51 WT So it was on “this generation” that the accumulated judgments were to fall. (Matt. 23:36)This therefore means that from 1914 ageneration shall not pass till all is fulfilled, and amidst a great time of trouble." 5-22-69 A "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."

Next we have2-15-08 WT On the other hand, Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class, have recognized this sign as if it were a flash of lightning and have understood its true meaning. As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day "generation" of contemporaries that will not pass away "until all these things occur." This suggests that some who are Christ's anointed brothers will still be alive on earth when the foretold great tribulation begins."

For one thing,when Jesus made this statement there were no anointed, as the Holy Spirit was not poured out until after his death at Pentecost 33A.D. Jesus is claimed to be applying the term "this generation" to a class that at the time of the statement did not even exist.

But regardless, now to try and pass this off as if it were a new flash of light that “the modern day anointed” understand the true meaning? What about when it was said back in the 2-15-27 WT “The irresistible conclusion therefore is that Jesus referred to the new creation [the anointed] when he said: “This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled.” This then would be a strong indication that some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon.”

Now again 4-15-10 WT Third, Holy Spirit is at work in bringing Bible truths to light. (Prov. 4:18) This magazine has long been used by “the faithful and discreet slave” as the primary channel for dispensing increased light. (Matt. 24:45) For example, consider our understanding of those who make up “this generation” mentioned by Jesus. (Read Matthew 24:32- 34.) To what generation did Jesus refer? The article “Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You?” explained that Jesus was referring, not to the wicked, but to his disciples, who were soon to be anointed with Holy Spirit. Jesus’ anointed followers, both in the first century and in our day, would be the ones who would not only see the sign but also discern its meaning—that Jesus “is near at the doors.”

14 What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of Holy Spirit. —Mark 13:37."

This amounts to a complete retraction of the 1995 teaching. It is an attempt to bring back the urgency of the pre-1995 teaching, but without setting any definable end date by which to be proven incorrect. The assumption is encouraged that the end will be shortly; within the life of an anointed that was a contemporary of an anointed alive in 1914. If Armageddon does not arrive in that timeframe it can then be extended to an anointed who knew an anointed who knew an anointed alive in 1914.

6 -1-97 WT So the recent information in The Watchtower about "this generation" did not change our understanding of what occurred in 1914. But it did give us a clearer grasp of Jesus' use of the term "generation," helping us to see that his usage was no basis for calculating-counting from 1914-how close to the end we are."

The 6 -1-97 WT here is referring to the change from this generation meaning those who were on hand during 1914 not dying off to referring to the peoples on earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways, calling that a clearer grasp, and adding that there was no basis for calculating-counting from 1914. They also asked the question in the11-1-95 WT “Is anything to be gained, then, by looking for dates or by speculating about the literal lifetime of a "generation?” Never mind the fact that all the evidence as they said; indicated that this generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, would by no means pass away.” And never mind that the clearer grasp lead to the change in 95, but now the channel for dispensing increased light withHoly Spirit at work in bringing Bible truths to light, say that Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914, just ignored the fact that they said that Jesus' use of the term "generation," helping them to see that his usage was no basis for calculating-counting from 1914.

Isaiah 9:16, Jeremiah 5:31, Jeremiah 14:14, Lamentations 2:14, Ezekiel 13:6

February1881 Zion's Watch Tower "If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now; But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. … "New Light" never extinguishes older "light" but adds to it…"

The fact is that this all stems from what was said in the 6 -1-97 WT quote “did not change our understanding of what occurred in 1914.” End quote The truth is that it was and is the correct understanding to say that "this generation" that observed the beginning of the "last days" would by no means pass away.”

To say anything else would make Jesus’ words atMatt 24:34 senseless as there would be no point in saying, "this generation” will by no means pass away".Jesus’ statement that the generation would "by no means pass away" applied to a group that saw both his ministry and the destruction of Jerusalem. Just like they said in the "Let Your Kingdom Come" excerpt. They knew what generation meant then, why not now?

Instead of trying to hold on to 1914 and redefine what he evidently meant concerning "this generation”, just except that the generation has or is dying off because the true presence has not occurred yet. Also everything else that was supposed to correspond with his arrival would not have had to been moved up as well. Quit plastering the wall with the whitewash. There is only a scriptural expectation for a second coming. When the master arrives, he arrives! Not “Well he arrived but he will come again then again and yet again.” “Or he is on this thrown but then he will be on that thrown.”

[elihu]

instead of trying to hold on to 1914 and redefine what he evidently meant concerning "this generation”, just except that the generation has or is dying off because the true presence has not occurred yet. Also everything else that was supposed to correspond with his arrival would not have had to been moved up as well. Quit plastering the wall with the whitewash. There is only a scriptural expectation for a second coming. When the master arrives, he arrives! Not “Well he arrived but he will come again then again and yet again.” “Or he is on this thrown but then he will be on that thrown.”

the question must be asked

, do those who teach Jehovahs witnesess to teach the 1914 doctrine believe their understanding to be the truth given to them by the holy spirit.?

or do they Know that their teaching is false?


elihu

[Molly]

Anthony-

Thank you for all those quotes from the Watchtower and other publications. I particularly liked what the 1881 Zion's Watchtower said about if it were man's view that "new truth" would eclipse "old truth." Well, duh! If they actually were anointed with holy spirit, then they would get it right the first time. Why would holy spirit lie to them? If holy spirit were actually poured out on these people, then they would actually "know Jehovah" and really understand what the truth is. They wouldn't have to get these stupid "flashes of light" that eventually turn out to be wrong.

The argument they use is that they are just imperfect men, but that is irrelevant. The holy spirit is NOT imperfect and would NOT give them imperfect/erroneous information to spread worldwide. So, we know for sure that the information could not have been from the holy spirit. They repeatedly use Proverbs 4:18 to explain that understanding gets brighter, but that is not even what that scripture is actually saying in context. It is referring to personal application of scripture.

The texts that you quoted make it clear that they must cling to the 1914 doctrine at all costs. The generation changes are necessary to keep the 1914 ship afloat, but it is filling with water and has can't stay up much longer. Over three years ago when I DA myself, one of the reasons that I gave for leaving was the "insultingly stupid definition of a generation" (1995 version). The brother looked astonished that someone would question such a thing. And look, now they have an even more ridiculous definition, but it is all to prop up 1914, or they lose their FDS control and authority.

And, I don't think any of that has Jehovah's blessing.

Molly

[Anthony]

the question must be asked

, do those who teach Jehovahs witnesess to teach the 1914 doctrine believe their understanding to be the truth given to them by the holy spirit.?

or do they Know that their teaching is false?


elihu

The ones who teach it, that put it in print, know it is false, but the ones who re-teach it to others believe it is the truth, because it was given to them by the month piece that they believe is lead by Holy Spirit.

13 And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, prophesy concerning the prophets of Israel who are prophesying, and you must say to those prophesying out of their own heart, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah. 3 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Woe to the stupid prophets, who are walking after their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! 4 Like foxes in the devastated places are what your own prophets have become, O Israel. 5 YOU men will certainly not go up into the gaps, neither will YOU build up a stone wall in behalf of the house of Israel, in order to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.” 6 “They have visioned what is untrue and a lying divination, those who are saying, ‘The utterance of Jehovah is,’ when Jehovah himself has not sent them, and they have waited to have a word come true. 7 Is it not an untrue vision that YOU men have visioned, and a lying divination that YOU have said, when saying, ‘The utterance of Jehovah is,’ when I myself have spoken nothing?”’8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “‘For the reason that YOU men have spoken untruth and YOU have visioned a lie, therefore here I am against YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” 9 And my hand has come to be against the prophets that are visioning untruth and that are divining a lie. In the intimate group of my people they will not continue on, and in the register of the house of Israel they will not be written, and to the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 10 for the reason, yes, for the reason that they have led my people astray, saying, “There is peace!” when there is no peace, and there is one that is building a partition wall, but in vain there are those plastering it with whitewash.’11 “Say to those plastering with whitewash that it will fall. A flooding downpour will certainly occur, and YOU, O hailstones, will fall, and a blast of windstorms itself will cause a splitting. 12 And, look! the wall must fall. Will it not be said to YOU men, ‘Where is the coating with which YOU did the plastering?’13 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘I will also cause a blast of windstorms to burst forth in my rage, and in my anger there will occur a flooding downpour, and in rage there will be hailstones for an extermination. 14 And I will tear down the wall that YOU men have plastered with whitewash and bring it into contact with the earth, and its foundation must be exposed. And she will certainly fall, and YOU must come to an end in the midst of her; and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah.’15 “‘And I will bring my rage to its finish upon the wall and upon those plastering it with whitewash, and I shall say to YOU men: “The wall is no more, and those plastering it are no more, 16 the prophets of Israel that are prophesying to Jerusalem and that are visioning for her a vision of peace, when there is no peace,”’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

[shikinah]

Anthony-

Thank you for all those quotes from the Watchtower and other publications. I particularly liked what the 1881 Zion's Watchtower said about if it were man's view that "new truth" would eclipse "old truth." Well, duh! If they actually were anointed with holy spirit, then they would get it right the first time. Why would holy spirit lie to them? If holy spirit were actually poured out on these people, then they would actually "know Jehovah" and really understand what the truth is. They wouldn't have to get these stupid "flashes of light" that eventually turn out to be wrong.

The argument they use is that they are just imperfect men, but that is irrelevant. The holy spirit is NOT imperfect and would NOT give them imperfect/erroneous information to spread worldwide. So, we know for sure that the information could not have been from the holy spirit. They repeatedly use Proverbs 4:18 to explain that understanding gets brighter, but that is not even what that scripture is actually saying in context. It is referring to personal application of scripture.

The texts that you quoted make it clear that they must cling to the 1914 doctrine at all costs. The generation changes are necessary to keep the 1914 ship afloat, but it is filling with water and has can't stay up much longer. Over three years ago when I DA myself, one of the reasons that I gave for leaving was the "insultingly stupid definition of a generation" (1995 version). The brother looked astonished that someone would question such a thing. And look, now they have an even more ridiculous definition, but it is all to prop up 1914, or they lose their FDS control and authority.

And, I don't think any of that has Jehovah's blessing.

Molly

Molly I have often thought the same thing, how can the Holy Spirit get it wrong? not only that, sometimes they have claimed inspiration from Angels and even Charles Taze Russell directing them from the heavenly realm. Proverbs 4:18 to explanation of the understanding gets brighter, obviously doesnt apply to them, otherwise they'd be able to explain the yearly increase of partakers during the memorial, which they cant.
Anthony those scriptures are so powerful, and im sorry to say, all i invision when i read them is the WT, nomatter how hard i try not to see it. "In the intimate group of my people they will not continue on," Here Jehovahs makes a clear seperation within his people, he has an "intimate group" which will not be swayed or cohersed by their teachings of these false prophets.

Shikinah

[Molly]

the question must be asked

, do those who teach Jehovahs witnesess to teach the 1914 doctrine believe their understanding to be the truth given to them by the holy spirit.?

or do they Know that their teaching is false?


elihu

Hi elihu-

The flock should know. I know many expect a pass card for their ignorance, but they are nevertheless held accountable for teaching false "truths." They were told to "not believe every inspired expression, but to test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." That, in a nutshell makes us all responsible for what we are teaching to others. We have to weed out anything that could have come from a false prophet. Surely we have read enough of the Bible to be aware of some things that are untrue. It's like the notion of channeling through the supposedly resurrected anointed. How much do you have to know to recognise the falsehood there. It's not truth, it's more like what goes on in a seance. How could that be acceptable to Jehovah? So, don't teach it to others.

So, yes, I believe that we are all accountable to God for teaching falsehoods. If we are unsure, then we should put it on the back shelf till we can be sure. Of course, I don't think a discussion of what scriptures say is the same as teaching. Again, it goes back to Luke 12:41-48 where some will be beaten with many strokes and some with few depending on whether they understood or not. If they didn't understand they may get few strokes, but they will nevertheless be punished.

Molly

[elihu]

what a mess!

what a mess this is. the only people that i know that are teaching the kingdom of God as a solution to mankinds problems
the only people i know that are proclaiming the name of Jehovah
,the only ones that i know of who teach a paradise earth and a heavenly government.

and yet they are frauds, or at best decieved
Satan is really clever, infiltrating the sons of the Kingdom with a MOL and not only infiltrate but e has LEAD the whole flock down the dead end alley with 1914 teaching.
of course some have opened their eyes and become aware of this and told others who have also listened

when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation flee. the scripture advises.
it does seem as Molly suggests that it is up to us to recognise that there is something wrong
however the only one who can rreally solve this problem is Christ when he returns

the current problem is that it makes speaking to some one about the kingdom really difficult, there is no where to reference to, no group to tell them to listen to or become part of.
give them a wt mag and say some of it is true and some false !
how can we do that?
satan really has put a spanner in the works.

elihu

[The Way]

what a mess!

what a mess this is.

I second that! It is like the wise man said:

(Ecclesiastes 7:29)
(The Message) Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.
(GNT) This is all that I have learned: God made us plain and simple, but we have made ourselves very complicated.
(CEV) I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.
(YLT) See, this alone I have found, that God made man upright, and they -- they have sought out many devices.

Seems some have forgotten about the existence of following scriptures:

(Deuteronomy 12:32) Every word that I am commanding YOU is what YOU should be careful to do. YOU must not add to it nor take away from it.
(Proverbs 30:5-6) Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, that he may not reprove you, and that you may not have to be proved a liar.
(1 Corinthians 4:6) . . .“Do not go beyond the things that are written,” . . .

-----
Make the way of Jehovah straight! -- Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3; Mr 1:3; Lu 3:4; Jo 1:23

[shikinah]

what a mess!

what a mess this is. the only people that i know that are teaching the kingdom of God as a solution to mankinds problems
the only people i know that are proclaiming the name of Jehovah
,the only ones that i know of who teach a paradise earth and a heavenly government.

and yet they are frauds, or at best decieved
Satan is really clever, infiltrating the sons of the Kingdom with a MOL and not only infiltrate but e has LEAD the whole flock down the dead end alley with 1914 teaching.
of course some have opened their eyes and become aware of this and told others who have also listened

when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation flee. the scripture advises.
it does seem as Molly suggests that it is up to us to recognise that there is something wrong
however the only one who can rreally solve this problem is Christ when he returns

the current problem is that it makes speaking to some one about the kingdom really difficult, there is no where to reference to, no group to tell them to listen to or become part of.
give them a wt mag and say some of it is true and some false !
how can we do that?
satan really has put a spanner in the works.

elihu

Its like Dejavu, like history repeating itself again, the same way the Israelites were so sure they understood the scriptures and the prophesies of when Jesus would arrive, Jehovahs special property.
Concerned with tradition and money laundering in the temples, they failed to see the true importance.
John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus but they still failed to recognise that Jesus was not sent to be an earthly king. Are we seeing the same events taking place again? will Jehovahs people recognise the two witnesses when they arrive? or like Jesus and John they will fail to understand the fulfilment of their arrival. Matthew 25:34-46
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So what looks like a mess, will eventually fulfill Jehovahs purpose, it will also be in the same manner as how the gentiles were accepted when the Jews rejected Jesus. The two witnesses preaching will appeal to those who heed the scripture in Revelation "to get out of her my people".
Fulfilling the scriptures Matthew 20:16 "So those who have the last place now will have the first place in the future, and those who have the first place now will have the last place in the future.
Of course there will be many of Jehovahs faithful who will see the light of truth, and those who will fail to understand as they continue to stick to the commandments of men.
This is how i see the jigsaw when i put the peices together maybe im wrong, only time will tell.

Shikinah

[Tsaphah]

OK, I think it is time to quit whining about the WTB&TS, 1914 and the like, and move on with the real advertising of the coming kingdom. You need to work with what you have and understand. As Paul wrote to the Hebrews, “Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.” (Heb 13:17 NASB )

Follow the advice of James, "Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (Jam 5:9 NASB ) Those who take a role of leadership will be judged accordingly.

Paul also went on to say, "Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus, equip YOU with every good thing to do his will, performing in us through Jesus Christ that which is well-pleasing in his sight; to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (Heb 13:20-21 NWT)

Let us do his will, preach about the King and the Kingdom. Let those who lack the understanding, be nourished by the word of God, to come to know who Jesus really is and who his father really is. We can worry about the details later.

Tsaphah

[mrgalleria]

Quote- "give them a wt mag and say some of it is true and some false !
how can we do that?
satan really has put a spanner in the works"

Alo ha,
At Revelation 1:16 we read "And he had in his right hand seven stars..."
Jesus holds all Christian denominations in his hand.
He later provides a warning to them to make changes, but they all are his.
If one needs to attend a Christian Church, so be it.
But it is to follow Jesus and God, not man.
Bill

[FutureMan]

Quote- "give them a wt mag and say some of it is true and some false !
how can we do that?
satan really has put a spanner in the works"

Alo ha,
At Revelation 1:16 we read "And he had in his right hand seven stars..."
Jesus holds all Christian denominations in his hand.
He later provides a warning to them to make changes, but they all are his.
If one needs to attend a Christian Church, so be it.
But it is to follow Jesus and God, not man.
Bill

Hello Bill on this, I do agree with you.

It is really all up to us individually to decide who we will follow.

Will we individually follow what Christ and his Apostles had taught, or will will follow what our own religion or organization has taught, it is up to us.

It is our own mortality that is at stake, (whether we receive everlasting life or not).

[Eyes & Ears]

OK, I think it is time to quit whining about the WTB&TS, 1914 and the like, and move on with the real advertising of the coming kingdom. You need to work with what you have and understand. As Paul wrote to the Hebrews, “Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.” (Heb 13:17 NASB )

Follow the advice of James, "Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (Jam 5:9 NASB ) Those who take a role of leadership will be judged accordingly.

Paul also went on to say, "Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus, equip YOU with every good thing to do his will, performing in us through Jesus Christ that which is well-pleasing in his sight; to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (Heb 13:20-21 NWT)

Let us do his will, preach about the King and the Kingdom. Let those who lack the understanding, be nourished by the word of God, to come to know who Jesus really is and who his father really is. We can worry about the details later.

Tsaphah


We all know the basic scriptures: Mt: 28:19, 20 is the one I am most referring to. It is not an option. As T has expressed here:


(T) You need to work with what you have and understand.

E & E: We can do this informally as many of us are doing.

God has a name, his name is Jehovah (scripture)

Jehovah will eliminate wicked (scripture)

Jehovah will eliminate sickness, death, sorrow........... (scripture)

He will do this by means of his Kingdom (scripture)

Jesus & 144,000 (scripture)

Explain who goes to heaven & what they will do there (scripture)



( T ) Those who take a role of leadership will be judged accordingly.

E & E: We are not accountable for what the leadership does

We are only accountable for what we do. Because in the end
we will answer individually not as a group (Ga 6:4-10)


( T ) Let those who lack the understanding, be nourished by the word of God, to come to know who Jesus really is and who his father really is. We can worry about the details later.


E & E: Did not Jehovah give those of us with the understanding that we have now by his Holy Spirit. Do we honestly believe that Jehovah's Spirit will not help those who have the right heart condition to see what they need to see in order to be pleasing to him. The least we can do is tell them about the Kingdom, etc. Jehovah's purpose.

Did not someone tell us, even if it was riddled with errors. Did not Jehovah allow this for a purpose/reason. The Good News as has been taught by JW's riddled as it is with errors (the restraint - my opinion) was allowed to be taught. (2 Thess). In fact we were just going along until Jehovah allowed us see due to our hungering and conscious of our spiritual need, and knowing something was not all right in paradise (so to speak Mt 5).


When Jehovah is ready to work out the details he will do just that. In the meantime we have to do what we have to do with what we have right now. As T expressed and I agree - Let us do his will, preach about the King and the Kingdom. We have to find a way to do this, we cannot NOT do it. (at this time)


When with the Field Service group (as I have shared) I talk about the Kingdom only at the door. No one questions me at all. How long this will last, I don't know. I make sure I use the Bible. If there is interest and I return, I talk more about the Kingdom, King, etc. Took me a loooooooooooooon time to come to terms with this very challenging situation with the MOL sitting right smack dab in the middle of Jehovah's Temple. But Jehovah is allowing it. WHY??? (RHETORICAL)


My prayer is that we don't do anything we may perhaps regret later before Jehovah reveals the details, that we don't learn on our own understanding, that we are patient. Much is being exposed/revealed at this time. However we have to actively wait on Jehovah to direct our steps and not try to figure out every stupid thing that the MOL does/ is doing. (Again my opinion only)

How do I know? Been there done that. Sometimes we can think too hard about things that are not going to hurt anyone, but also will not help us much either. I am not saying these things are wrong to discuss, (certainly not me who flipped, flopped and took 1,000 years to get the understanding I now have:):D)


All I am saying (my opinion only) is that things are what they are presently errors and all. However what I have found is it is critical to understand why these things are allowed to take place. That is what I had to learn and that is what I learned. (THE HARD WAY PHEW!!! - I MUST LIKE PAIN :D - NOT REALLY)

When it is time to FLEE, there will be NO MISTAKE. Personally, I feel that time

is getting close. I have jumped 3 or 4 times and I am glad I did. I learned so

much from my spiritual misunderstandings. But this time I learned to LISTEN TO

THE VOICE OF MY FATHER, and it took a loooooooooooooong time as I said to

reach that point. When Jehovah says Do not put your trust in earthling man, that is

exactly what he means. But he won't stop you.

The reason it took me so long.....leaning on others instead of going to Jehovah

first.


Jehovah won't stop you from doing what you are doing (FREE MORAL AGENT).


.................................................. .................................................. .................


We have no idea at all, when things will go totally down south. When I saw

pictures of how the earthquake in Haiti caught many by surprise and also the

last earthquake showing pictures of people partying and drinking and

going on (just like in the days of Noah) it really had an effect on me. We have no

idea what life will be like in the next second. Our lives could change in the

twinkling of an eye.


It took me so very long to understand (repeating) that in order for me to have a

more meaningful relationship and draw closer to Jehovah I needed to spend more

quality time with him. I needed to stop trying to fight every single thing that

the WTBTS and elders, etc. are doing and saying that is out of harmony with

Jehovah's Word. Jehovah will take care of it. He did not ask me to work out

his purpose, he invited me to be a part of it and he left instructions for

what was to be done and he left me enough details to do it. When it is time to

do something different, then I will allow his Holy Spirit to direct my steps

and I am sure I will recognize what Jehovah's spirit is helping me

see/understand.


May Jehovah be with us all in these very challenging times.

IT SURE AIN'T EASY IS IT?


I am only sharing my stuff, not trying to talk down or argue or debate with anyone. All the expressions sometimes causes one to reflect.






Everyone have a pleasant rest of your day/evening.

E & E


ROMANS 10: 10-15

10) For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.

11) For the scriptures says: "None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed."

12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.

13) For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved."

14) However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How in turn will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How in turn will they hear without someone to preach?

15) How in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: "How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!".


Keep HOLD N ON TIGHT to Jehovah and his son no matter what. ESPECIALLY during this time, reflect on the meaning of what Jesus dying for us really means as the Memorial gets closer.


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STAY FOCUSED ON WHAT IS IMPORTANT OKEY DOKEY.

[Eyes & Ears]

I wanted to add a comment (edit) to my expressions but I waited too long. I would just like to add

that we also need to stay awake and be alert to what may pop up on the board from

time to time. I find that at times certain threads are pushed out of the way on purpose, and not

due to a lack of interest.


Just my personal opinion for what it is worth. I will not say anymore about this either on the public

board or a private message ok.:rolleyes:


Take care everyone OKEY DOKEY

E & E

[Tsaphah]

AMEN, Sister! Thank you for more scriptures to remind us all.

It's a long bumpy, narrow road, isn't it? Some times we may want to get off and take a rest, bit that's the way we can get lost. It's hard to be good. :rolleyes:

Tsaphah

[shikinah]

Thank you E&E,
What you wrote is very true, as we get nearer to the end of this system, our frustrations to understand whats happening within the organisation can lead us to desperate measures which can lead to us relying on our own understanding and becoming resentful of the organisation which Jehovah uses. I myself have been guilty of this too, we are only human but despite our eagerness for righteousness, we really need to rely on Jehovahs Judgement and ask ourselves "why he allows such things to occur?" I think we sometimes fear that we may become blind like the Israelites and become desensitised to the wrongs we see, and not take flight if apostacy eventually ingulfs the WT Society.
But as you mentioned if our hearts are pure and we serve Jehovah and his son Christ Jesus for the right reason, Jehovah will pour out his Holy Spirit in due time so that we will see things more clearly. Prayer, patience and supplication is our only means of ever understanding Jehovahs wisdom.

He who leans on, trusts in, and is confident of his own mind and heart is a [self-confident] fool, but he who walks in skillful and godly Wisdom shall be delivered. Proverbs 28: 26

[The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere.
Ephesians 3: 10




Sisterly Love
Shikinah

[arimatthewdavies]

i can onley say this, i really,really dont like the way our society takes bible scriptures like pushing ahead, bloodguilt,,and going againts jehovah, and uses those scriptures to make people feel guilty,
jesus christ who is our lord,and master, never ever at any time told anybody! that they were to form a hive and obey a hive mindset in fact quite the oposite he sent 2 at a time with seperate messeges for intended for certain people and circumstances! it is not pushing ahead to return to the old ways as the bible states! pushing ahead is when a group of men gets togeather and plans the spirtual walk of hundreds of people without allowing those people to pray and consult jesus christ first! supose the holy spirt wants me to hand out hot coffe on a cold day from the back of my pickup and give a breif invitation in jesus name, then along comes the news camera and ive got to say jesus told me to give out hot coffe today? remember the movie oh god? and then god forbid it becomes known im one of jehovahs wittnesses? acting independantly of the set forth maner of watchtowers and door to door field service, and yes their are bethelites who report our conversations ah but rest easy their are also several of the anointed 1440000 here actively giveing feed back and jehovahs in control here! i must admit i have to pray to jehovah to correct my heart and mind freqently and to remove the feelings of false guilt when i obey him rather than going door knocking with the herd! sometimes my job is to clean and prepare a car at a cheap price for a familey in need ,sometime i spend hours writeing on the net,sometime my ministery takes me to were im not supposed to go, inside a church! and im totaly convinced that jehovah and jesus want more indivigual action rather than simple routine do it cause the kingdom hall says so! again i say no its not pushing ahead to ask jehovah what he wants out of you today! yes sometime hes going to say join the group today and do watchtowers, but what if jehovah wants you to ride through town with a sandwich billboard advertiseing the king and his kingdom.? or what if jehovah wants you to simply do a bible reading useing your cellphone as a webcam? what if he has you give that death rap thug dancer a kingdom melody tape? hmmm? oh well brothers/sisters here is were the rubber meets the road theirs a fine line between being asertive and useful, and between pushing ahead and inventing your own agenda and i say pray and preach pray and preach,and when its borg time say resistance is futile as you place the watchtowers in your bookbag,lol

[elihu]

OK, I think it is time to quit whining about the WTB&TS, 1914 and the like, and move on with the real advertising of the coming kingdom. You need to work with what you have and understand. As Paul wrote to the Hebrews, “Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.” (Heb 13:17 NASB )


Follow the advice of James, "Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (Jam 5:9 NASB ) Those who take a role of leadership will be judged accordingly.

Paul also went on to say, "Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus, equip YOU with every good thing to do his will, performing in us through Jesus Christ that which is well-pleasing in his sight; to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (Heb 13:20-21 NWT)

Let us do his will, preach about the King and the Kingdom. Let those who lack the understanding, be nourished by the word of God, to come to know who Jesus really is and who his father really is. We can worry about the details later.

Tsaphah

yes i agree Tsaphah, Christ told his followers

" it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own
authority
"But you shall recieve power when the Holy spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth."

the 1914 deception has diverted enough time energy from the real task at hand.

elihu

[Gilligan]

Mr. Tsaphah says:
"Re: Advertising the Kingdom. OK, I think it is time to quit whining about the WTB&TS, 1914 and the like, and move on with the real advertising of the coming kingdom. You need to work with what you have and understand."

Good advice, no sense now, shooting fish in a barrel, there's just no contention.

But when I'm watching major sports these days, there's this new commercial from Toyota. How new buyers come across all happy and stuff about how they love their new Toyota. Totally fake acting as all get out.
And here's the real clincher at the end of the ad:

There's this young black kid, obviously a car salesman of Toyota's, and whole-heartedly breaks your little heart by saying:

"Thank you for standing by us".

So, instead of those Fat Cats from Japan from Toyota relaying this message,
they get their little tokens to do their dirty work for them.

Too much correlation for me, if I may be bold.
But we must forgive at all costs, lest this eat us up alive.
May God bring His just Justice to all, and may this (please) be soon,,,

[Tsaphah]

Hi Gills,
You've got that right. LOL. It's called marketing. Go for the heart. It really doesn't matter if it's a lie. Deny, Deny, Defend. Only apologize after you're caught and cry to the judge to be lenient. Show some crocodile tears.

Tsaphah

[elihu]

sorrry folks don,t get the correllation with the WTO and Toyota.

toyota apologise to customers the WTO is accountable to Jehovah

will they ever admit they are wrong? and have mislead many. i think it comes down to what Molly said earlier in that we are accountable as INDIVIDUALS to Jehovah.
it is our duty as believers in Christ to try to follow the lamb wherever he goes because that is what a true Christian must be, a follower of Christ, not a follower of an organisation.

so i personally think it is time to put behind me the good and bad teachings of the WTO and to seek Christ as an individual on a personal level not through some org like the WTO and to expect an apology to comefrom them at some point in time because they taught falshoods.

Christ said
" now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out, and if i am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to myself." john 12 31,32

Christ warned his disciples about a specific deception that would occur

"take heed that you do not be decieved. For many will come in my name, saying i AM HE (Christ/annointed), and THE TIME HAS DRAWN NEAR
therefore do not go after them.

who fits that description?.
so i do not think a WTO apology will ever be on the cards not to sheep, cattle, dogs or most importantly to the True God.

[arimatthewdavies]

i totaly agree that its time to quit whineing about the past, however we must be careful not to take with us negative traits especialy useing a bible scripture to our own advantage .our goal as christians is #1 bringing honor to jehovah and jesus, its impossible to do this if we dispute about who is greatest among us, it is the responsability of everyone to treat one another with equal care their is onley one leader jesus christ! when the bible speaks of submiting to authority, it must be clearly understood that god has placed those people in their positions but the bible also gives an example of what to do when 2 christiens are anoying each other! see the example abraham left for us, you go left and dwell in peace and i will go right and dwell in peace, this is a good example of submiting to someone yet at the same time exerciseing equal care .as to advertiseing the comeing of jesus kingdom, jesus christ showed the perfect way to do it in person! their is no improved, better, more enlightened, new light, ect to submit to! if their was a better way jesus christ would have shewed it in to us ! in person when he was here, the divine order that the bible teaches is god,man,familey, church, in that order! not god,church, man familey! i shall yak no more! just wanted to make it clear that gods way comes first .

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello. There is no doubt that only JW'S are teaching and proclaiming Jah's purposes. Others just point out for a trinity,hell,only heavenly hope,inmortal soul, ect...Those doctrines are the ones that displeases God. JW'S has helped thousands to get rid off those unbiblical doctrines. JW'S are the ones worldwide presenting the biblical truths about Jehovah and his purposes.

[FutureMan]

Hello. There is no doubt that only JW'S are teaching and proclaiming Jah's purposes. Others just point out for a trinity,hell,only heavenly hope,inmortal soul, ect...Those doctrines are the ones that displeases God. JW'S has helped thousands to get rid off those unbiblical doctrines. JW'S are the ones worldwide presenting the biblical truths about Jehovah and his purposes.

Hello there SWORDOFJAH, it is clear that you a a proponent for the organization, but I'm a proponent for what is truth and for true Christianity.

when I make these comments to you, it is not to be contentious with you, but because I am an advocate of what is truth.

Now having said that, I believe that you are not correct in your statement "There is no doubt that only JW'S are teaching and proclaiming Jah's purposes. Others just point out for a trinity,hell,only heavenly hope,inmortal soul, ect..."

I do not believe that you are correct in this statement, for a simple reason that there are other groups who also do not believe in the trinity, or hell, or immortality of the soul.

If you investigate other Christian groups you will see what I mean.

Also Jehovah's witnesses may be the main ones who are preaching at people's doors and are very active in this, however as previously discussed on this forum their are other ways of doing the preaching work and you know this to be true.

In fact Watchman who operates this forum and "The Watchman's Post", has shown how it can be done and very proficiently, using the technology of the Web.

Other groups uses the radio, TV, still other groups still do the good old fashion way of public preaching on the streets, tho this is becoming a very unpopular way of do it, as it has become unacceptable in this modern society to be crying out the message from a street corner.

Now have you ever wondered why Seventh Day Adventist for instance, have more membership than the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses do?

The seventh day Adventist have a different way of preaching their message, proving that the door to door method is not the only way to preach the message.

Not that I go along with some of their teachings such as the "God head" which is a form of the trinity, or neither do I go along with their concept of strictly adhering to the ten commandments of which the sabbath day is one of them, as I believe that the Mosaic law was only a tutor leading to the perfect law covenant of the Christ of which I try my best to adhere to.

I do not believe that they have an accurate knowledge of the truth, but they do have some.

There are many groups of Christians around the world that have some knowledge of the truth in different degrees, and many of these are doing their best to spread the message in their own way, as Jesus in his commandment to his disciple before departing, did not really stipulate how this was to be done, only that this was what he wished to be done, which was also his heavenly Father's wish also, to preach the Good News to all the world and make disciples.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello there SWORDOFJAH, it is clear that you a a proponent for the organization, but I'm a proponent for what is truth and for true Christianity.

when I make these comments to you, it is not to be contentious with you, but because I am an advocate of what is truth.

Now having said that, I believe that you are not correct in your statement "There is no doubt that only JW'S are teaching and proclaiming Jah's purposes. Others just point out for a trinity,hell,only heavenly hope,inmortal soul, ect..."

I do not believe that you are correct in this statement, for a simple reason that there are other groups who also do not believe in the trinity, or hell, or immortality of the soul.

If you investigate other Christian groups you will see what I mean.

Also Jehovah's witnesses may be the main ones who are preaching at people's doors and are very active in this, however as previously discussed on this forum their are other ways of doing the preaching work and you know this to be true.

In fact Watchman who operates this forum and "The Watchman's Post", has shown how it can be done and very proficiently, using the technology of the Web.

Other groups uses the radio, TV, still other groups still do the good old fashion way of public preaching on the streets, tho this is becoming a very unpopular way of do it, as it has become unacceptable in this modern society to be crying out the message from a street corner.

Now have you ever wondered why Seventh Day Adventist for instance, have more membership than the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses do?

The seventh day Adventist have a different way of preaching their message, proving that the door to door method is not the only way to preach the message.

Not that I go along with some of their teachings such as the "God head" which is a form of the trinity, or neither do I go along with their concept of strictly adhering to the ten commandments of which the sabbath day is one of them, as I believe that the Mosaic law was only a tutor leading to the perfect law covenant of the Christ of which I try my best to adhere to.

I do not believe that they have an accurate knowledge of the truth, but they do have some.

There are many groups of Christians around the world that have some knowledge of the truth in different degrees, and many of these are doing their best to spread the message in their own way, as Jesus in his commandment to his disciple before departing, did not really stipulate how this was to be done, only that this was what he wished to be done, which was also his heavenly Father's wish also, to preach the Good News to all the world and make disciples.


JW'S are proponent of truth my friend. The facts are clear, JW'S are well known for their worldwide biblical education like no other group.Also JW'S are using technology as well to promote the kingdom. We have the internet where each day people can read and ask for a study. We have available publications, dramas,songs,ect.. for anyone who which to download. We have use others visual aids to spread the truth about Jehovah and his coming kingdom.

[FutureMan]

JW'S are proponent of truth my friend. The facts are clear, JW'S are well known for their worldwide biblical education like no other group.Also JW'S are using technology as well to promote the kingdom. We have the internet where each day people can read and ask for a study. We have available publications, dramas,songs,ect.. for anyone who which to download. We have use others visual aids to spread the truth about Jehovah and his coming kingdom.

You are correct SWORDOFJAH, most JW'S are for the "truth", but only the truth as the Watchtower sees it, and I from past experience having been associated with the organization for over 40 years, has seen how this truth can be somewhat variable, and sometimes backwards and forwards like a pendulum.

In fact one Elder who is known to be a pillar in the congregation that I was brought up in, stated to me only about four years ago when I was visiting them, that on one particular understanding, they had gone around in a complete circle, almost back to where they started in fact.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not have all the truth, as they so presumptuously claim, but they do have a good grounding in the truth, no doubt about that, but there is at least one fundamental truth that they do not heed and that is we all must partake of the bread of life, which is the Christ as represented by his flesh.

The bread that symbolizes Christ's flesh and that symbolizes everlasting life is past around every year at the memorial attended by Jehovah's Witnesses, and is rejected over and over again, by the majority of it's members.

They do not eat the bread that symbolizes God's provision for eternal life, it is as simple as that.


John 6 [LITV]
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one believing into Me has everlasting life.
48 I am the Bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died.
50 This is the Bread coming down out of Heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the Living Bread that came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever. And indeed the bread which I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 Then the Jews argued with one another, saying, How can this One give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.
54 The one partaking of My flesh and drinking of My blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is truly food, and My blood is truly drink.
56 The one partaking of My flesh and drinking of My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

No one can get around this scripture, to do so would be apostasy.

[mrgalleria]

Quote- "JW'S are proponent of truth my friend. The facts are clear, JW'S are well known for their worldwide biblical education like no other group.Also JW'S are using technology as well to promote the kingdom. We have the internet where each day people can read and ask for a study. We have available publications, dramas,songs,ect.. for anyone who which to download. We have use others visual aids to spread the truth about Jehovah and his coming kingdom."

Alo ha,
Could you do me a favor?
Look in the Yearbook, and divide the hours spent in the ministry,
by the number of those baptized,
but first you may need to divide the number baptized by about two-
to account for those being baptized who were not found in the ministry,
but likely are children of witnesses.

After doing this, and seeing the results, do you still desire to boast
about the witnessing being done, and would you do so before the head of the congregation, Jesus?
Bill

[arimatthewdavies]

how about this? instead of repent armagedons comeing to destroy the wicked ,and jesus is bringing paradise, we focus on lets all do the right thing now so we can all have a great life! and when our times up we dont have to worry about repenting or armagedon because we did serve jehovah all through life!