Trinity Explained [Archive] - e-Jehovah's Witnesses: A Place for Jehovah's Witnesses and Interested Ones

shikinah

03-03-2010, 11:46 PM

I was browsing a site which had some interesting things about Yahweh and the meaning of his name, I asked whats their view on the trinity, and this was the most indepth reply on the trinity i have ever had. Theres so much Hebrew perhaps some of you scholars may find it interesting its like another language to me..

Firstly in relation to the word trinity, we do not believe in a trinity as a three in one Elohim as taught by the Catholic & Protestant Churches.

The word "echad" used in Debarim6:4 for the number one in Hebrew means united. Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
It is :-
H259
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

This would make Debarim (Duet)6:4 more properly read "Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is united!

Ha Mashiyach said he came in His Father's Name, (John5:43) He also stated the "works he did" were done in His Father's Name (John 10:24)

Then we see in John14:26
"But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.

So we see that the same NAME was /is the name of the Father, and the Son and the Ruach Ha Kodesh(The Set Apart Spirit)

But this does not make a trinity of 3 in 1.

The word Shem translated "Name" means more than just what some one is called, as an identifying mark, it means "authority"
"character" So in talking of coming in His Father's Name and the Ruach coming in His Name, he meant so much more than just what
he was called. He meant coming in "the authority of "and with "the same character".

Zec 14:9 And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth.

In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one(united)
Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger sounded, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, "The reign of this world has
become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign for ever and ever.

In relation to a Hebrew word meaning trinity mentioned in scripture, there is not one. The closest you will find is:-

H7969
shâlôsh / shelôshâh
BDB Definition:
1) three, triad
1a) 3, 300, third Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminineA Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number:
a primitive number Same Word by TWOT Number: 2403a

Total KJV Occurrences: 428 Translated as:-

three, 387 timesGen_5:22-23 (2), Gen_6:10, Gen_6:15, Gen_7:13, Gen_9:19, Gen_9:28, Gen_11:13, Gen_11:15, Gen_14:14,
Gen_18:2, Gen_18:6, Gen_29:2, Gen_29:34, Gen_30:36, Gen_38:24, Gen_40:10, Gen_40:12-13 (3), Gen_40:16,
Gen_40:18-19 (3), Gen_42:17, Gen_45:22, Gen_46:15, Exo_2:2, Exo_3:18, Exo_5:3, Exo_6:18, Exo_7:7, Exo_8:27,
Exo_10:22-23 (2), Exo_15:22, Exo_21:11, Exo_23:14, Exo_23:17, Exo_25:32-33 (4), Exo_27:1, Exo_27:14-15 (4),
Exo_32:28, Exo_37:18-19 (4), Exo_38:1, Exo_38:14-15 (4), Exo_38:26, Lev_12:4, Lev_14:10, Lev_19:23, Lev_25:21,
Lev_27:6, Num_1:23, Num_1:43, Num_1:46, Num_2:13, Num_2:30, Num_2:32, Num_3:50, Num_4:44, Num_10:33 (2),
Num_12:4 (2), Num_15:9, Num_22:28, Num_22:32-33 (2), Num_24:10, Num_26:7, Num_26:25, Num_26:47,
Num_26:62, Num_28:12, Num_28:20, Num_28:28, Num_29:3, Num_29:9, Num_29:14, Num_31:36, Num_31:43,
Num_33:8, Num_33:39, Num_35:14 (2), Deu_4:41, Deu_14:28, Deu_16:16, Deu_17:6, Deu_19:2, Deu_19:7,
Deu_19:9, Deu_19:15, Jos_1:11, Jos_2:16, Jos_2:22, Jos_7:2-4 (3), Jos_9:16, Jos_15:14, Jos_17:11, Jos_18:4,
Jos_21:32, Jdg_1:20, Jdg_7:6-8 (3), Jdg_7:16 (2), Jdg_7:20, Jdg_7:22, Jdg_8:4, Jdg_9:22, Jdg_9:43, Jdg_10:2,
Jdg_11:26, Jdg_14:14, Jdg_15:4, Jdg_15:11, Jdg_16:15, Jdg_16:27, Jdg_19:4, 1Sa_1:24, 1Sa_2:13, 1Sa_2:21,
1Sa_9:20, 1Sa_10:3 (3), 1Sa_11:8, 1Sa_11:11, 1Sa_13:2, 1Sa_13:17, 1Sa_17:13-14 (3), 1Sa_20:20, 1Sa_20:41,
1Sa_26:2 (3), 1Sa_30:12-13 (3), 1Sa_31:6, 1Sa_31:8, 2Sa_2:18, 2Sa_2:31, 2Sa_5:5, 2Sa_6:11, 2Sa_13:38, 2Sa_14:27,
2Sa_18:14, 2Sa_20:4, 2Sa_21:1, 2Sa_21:16, 2Sa_23:9, 2Sa_23:16-19 (6), 2Sa_23:22-23 (2), 2Sa_24:12-13 (3),
1Ki_2:11, 1Ki_2:39, 1Ki_4:32, 1Ki_5:16 (2), 1Ki_6:36, 1Ki_7:4-5 (3), 1Ki_7:12, 1Ki_7:25 (4), 1Ki_7:27, 1Ki_9:25,
1Ki_10:17 (2), 1Ki_10:22, 1Ki_11:3, 1Ki_12:5, 1Ki_15:2, 1Ki_17:21, 1Ki_22:1, 2Ki_2:17, 2Ki_3:10, 2Ki_3:13,
2Ki_9:32, 2Ki_12:6, 2Ki_13:1, 2Ki_13:25, 2Ki_17:5, 2Ki_18:10, 2Ki_18:14, 2Ki_23:31 (2), 2Ki_24:1, 2Ki_24:8,
2Ki_25:17-18 (2), 1Ch_2:3, 1Ch_2:16, 1Ch_2:22, 1Ch_3:4, 1Ch_3:23, 1Ch_10:6 (2), 1Ch_11:11-12 (2), 1Ch_11:15,
1Ch_11:18-21 (7), 1Ch_11:24-25 (2), 1Ch_12:27, 1Ch_12:29, 1Ch_12:39, 1Ch_13:14, 1Ch_21:10, 1Ch_21:12 (3),
1Ch_23:8-9 (2), 1Ch_23:23, 1Ch_24:18, 1Ch_25:5, 1Ch_25:30, 1Ch_29:4, 1Ch_29:27, 2Ch_2:2, 2Ch_2:17-18 (2),
2Ch_4:4-5 (5), 2Ch_6:13, 2Ch_7:10, 2Ch_8:13, 2Ch_9:16 (2), 2Ch_9:21, 2Ch_10:5, 2Ch_11:17 (2), 2Ch_13:2,
2Ch_14:8-9 (2), 2Ch_17:14, 2Ch_20:25, 2Ch_25:5, 2Ch_26:13 (2), 2Ch_29:33, 2Ch_31:16, 2Ch_35:7-8 (2),
2Ch_36:2 (2), 2Ch_36:9, Ezra 2 (15), Ezr_8:5, Ezr_8:15, Ezr_8:32, Ezr_10:8-9 (2), Neh_2:11, Neh_7:9, Neh_7:17,
Neh_7:22-23 (2), Neh_7:29, Neh_7:32, Neh_7:35-36 (2), Neh_7:38-39 (2), Neh_7:60, Neh_7:66-67 (2), Est_4:16,
Est_8:9, Est_9:15, Job_1:2-4 (3), Job_1:17, Job_2:11, Job_32:1, Job_32:3, Job_32:5, Job_42:13, Pro_30:15,
Pro_30:18, Pro_30:21, Pro_30:29, Isa_16:14, Isa_17:6, Jer_25:3 (2), Jer_52:23-24 (2), Jer_52:28 (2), Jer_52:30,
Eze_4:5, Eze_4:9, Eze_14:14, Eze_14:16, Eze_14:18, Eze_40:10 (3), Eze_40:21 (2), Eze_40:48 (2), Eze_41:6,
Eze_41:16, Eze_41:22, Eze_48:31-34 (4), Dan_1:5, Dan_8:14, Dan_10:2-3 (2), Dan_11:2, Dan_12:12, Amo_1:3,
Amo_1:6, Amo_1:9, Amo_1:11, Amo_1:13, Amo_2:1, Amo_2:4, Amo_2:6, Amo_4:4, Amo_4:7-8 (2), Jon_1:17 (2),
Jon_3:3, Zec_11:8

thirteen, 15 times
Gen_17:25, Num_3:43, Num_3:46, Num_29:13-14 (2), Jos_19:6, Jos_21:4, Jos_21:6, Jos_21:19, Jos_21:33,
1Ki_7:1, 1Ch_6:60, 1Ch_6:62, 1Ch_26:11, Eze_40:11

thirteenth, 11 times
Gen_14:4, 1Ch_24:13, 1Ch_25:20, Est_3:12-13 (2), Est_8:12, Est_9:1, Est_9:17-18 (2), Jer_25:2-3 (2)

third, 9 times
Exo_19:15, 1Ki_15:28, 1Ki_15:33, 2Ki_18:1, 2Ch_17:7, Est_1:3, Dan_10:1 (3)

thrice, 4 times
Exo_34:23-24 (2), 2Ki_13:18-19 (2)

forks, 1
1Sa_13:21

oftentimes, 1
Job_33:29
None of the above referenced scriptures suggest a trinity of a 3 in 1 Elohim.

You could try similarly referencing:-
H8027
shâlashBDB Definition:
1) to do a third time, do three times, divide in three parts
1a) (Piel) to do a third time, divide into three parts
b) (Pual) to be three years of age, be threefoldPart of Speech: verbA Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root perhaps originally to intensify, i.e. trebleSame Word by TWOT Number: 2403

and:-
H7991
shâlı̂ysh / shâlôshBDB Definition:
1) third part
1a) name of a measure
2) a musical instrument
2a) maybe three-stringed, triangular shape, or three-barred
2b) perhaps a sistrum or triangle
3) shield carrier, adjutant, officer, captainPart of Speech: noun masculineA Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7969
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2403e, 2403f, 2403g

Here again no reference will suggest a trinty.

Tsaphah

03-04-2010, 10:32 PM

shikinah

03-04-2010, 10:48 PM

I'm not sure where they are going with this explanation of these Hebrew words and their expressions. They are correct in stating the meanings. The part about “his name”, also gives a good example of the meaning of what is meant in the expression. An example that I use is, the police or other government personnel say that they operate “in the NAME of the LAW”, or they may say that they come with or under “the authority of”, whomever they represent.

I'm just a little confused by the “Firstly in relation to the word trinity, we do not believe in a trinity as a three in one Elohim as taught by the Catholic & Protestant Churches.“

Just what do they believe? What is their purpose in making these statements? And who are they?

Tsaphah

I knew you'd be one of the first to comment on this, as your an expert with translations, I dont know who they are, I got lost as usual and ended up reading about Gods name and its correct pronounciation. I sent them Roberts video, to show how simplicity is sometimes more:)
I found this on their site, it was really interesting its called the Woman with the Alabaster Flask...http://www.yhwhhisgreatname.org/html/yahuweh_or_yahuwah__.html#alabasterwoman.

Tsaphah

03-05-2010, 03:14 AM

I knew you'd be one of the first to comment on this, as your an expert with translations,

Dear Sister Shikinah,
Thanks for the compliment, but I am a far cry from being an expert with these languages. It's only through Jehovah's spirit, and some of my life experiences that help me in understanding. Most "scholars and experts" would laugh at my feeble explanations posted here. Of course, I depend on other, older sources, and hope that they are right in their sources and explanations, And sometimes I think outside the box, that's how I get some of those Aha moments. :rolleyes:

Tsaphah

shikinah

03-05-2010, 07:27 AM

Dear Sister Shikinah,
Thanks for the compliment, but I am a far cry from being an expert with these languages. It's only through Jehovah's spirit, and some of my life experiences that help me in understanding. Most "scholars and experts" would laugh at my feeble explanations posted here. Of course, I depend on other, older sources, and hope that they are right in their sources and explanations, And sometimes I think outside the box, that's how I get some of those Aha moments. :rolleyes:

Tsaphah

Well you do a pretty good job Tsaphah, with your humility and the Holy Spirit we can see why your source and explanations have proved so helpful, keep it coming:D

Shikinah

Tsaphah

03-06-2010, 04:36 AM

Hi Sister Shikinah,
After looking further into that site, I found where they are going with their subject of Jehovah's name and who he is, and the trinity. It reminded me of the scripture by Peter, in discussing some of the harder things that Paul writes about. The conclusion is the same as what Peter says, “...In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Pet 3:16b NWT)

They are trying hard to appear that they don't believe in a trinity, but they do. They are trying to use another, around the block, approach to the subject. It's a 360, and you end up with the same thing, Jehovah and Jesus are the same, all in one God. One of the words used, tipped me off. It doesn't necessarily have a bad connotation, when you understand the meaning of the word. It's just how it was used. That word was, pagan. The original meaning is, country people. Or, the rural people that live outside the cities. The uneducated, farmers, who believed in gods for everything.

It gives me more information of how people are using word tricks to try and prove a point. The old shell game, smoke and mirrors. They do a pretty good job, in a round about way of using original Hebrew, but they overstep the boundaries in their references.

Tsaphah

shikinah

03-07-2010, 11:03 PM

Tsaphah thats well observed, no wonder I never got a reply when I asked them for their opinion on Roberts Trinity video:)