FutureMan
03-07-2010, 04:24 AM
Hello all here is a post that I know will be controversial here on this forum and among the organization of Jehovah's witnesses, as I'm considering the possibility that the great tribulation mentioned in (Matthew 24) and in (Luke 21) and (Revelation 7) is really referring mainly to those who claim to be God's people namely all those who call themselves Christians.
Why am I considering this?
Well a scripture in the Catholic edition of the Good News Bible actually refers to this time of the great tribulation, as the "terrible persecution" or as another Good News Bible renders it as the "great ordeal".
Now in the proper context of this scripture, you could hardly say that the whole world comes under this type of persecution, can you?
Or that all the nations of the entire Roman empire came under this attack of Rome?
Because when we look into the original tribulation that happened back then which came upon those who called themselves God's people, it only really effected those who were in Jerusalem and the domain of Judea, and by
large did not necessarily effected any of the other nations that were around Judea, unless they were in the area as alien residents at the time.
The disgusting thing that was within the Holy place, Jerusalem and all of Judea proved to be from the encamped Roman armies who were surrounding Jerusalem in 66 CE.
This was prior to the tribulation that occurred upon Jerusalem and Judea.
This tribulation only came upon Judea and all it's inhabitants.
Now we go to (Revelation 7) [LITV]
Which states, in verse 14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those coming out of the great tribulation; and they washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat.
17 Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them, and will lead them on the living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.
Here we see that those of the great crowd are the ones who survive spiritually and indeed physically as ones who now are clothed in robes that have becomewhitened by the blood of the lamb particularly during this time
period which is referred to as the Great Tribulation.
But what could the great tribulation today parallel, and whom does it effect?
Does it effect everyone on the earth as is the current understanding of some of the Christian groups on the earth?
Well what does the Bible actually say on this matter?
Daniel 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
19 Then I wanted to know the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all of them, very frightening, whose teeth were of iron and its nails bronze; who devoured and crushed, and trampled what was left with its feet,
20 also of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other which came up, and before whom three fell, even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth speaking great things, and its look was greater than his fellows.
21 I was looking, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came. And judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Two things come to notice here in this scripture.
(1) is that the horn which comes out of the ten horns of the fourth wild beast, make war with God's anointed ones and actually overcomes them for a period of time.
And secondly this is for a specified period of time.
Now how long is this period of time?
Well verse 25 of the same chapter actually answers this.
25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time.
Notice here its refers to a time period of 3 and a half times, or 3 and a half years, or 1260 days, or 42 months.
(Revelation 12) [LITV]
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman who bore the male.
14 And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent's face.
15 And the serpent threw water out of his mouth like a river after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried off by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon threw out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(Revelation 11) [LITV]
2 And cast aside the outside court of the temple, and do not measure it. For it was given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city forty two months.
3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.
(revelation 13) [LITV]
4 And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast; who is able to make war with it?
5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it.
6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven.
7 And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21
So here we see that God's people will indeed come under attack and tribulation during these times.
The tribulation is for them as these are the ones who are now proclaiming to be Christians and who will come under attack of the 7 headed wild beast and who will live under extreme hardship and persecution.
In fact to the point where none of God's people would spiritually survive (those who stay faithful) during this time.
They could also be in danger of physically being exterminated as well.
So during this time it is God's people (Christians) and the Chosen ones that come under attack and tribulations as brought about by the 7 headed wild beast.
But who of the Christians are the ones really effected by this time of distress?
(Revelation 13) [LITV]
4 And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast; who is able to make war with it?
5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it.
6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven.
7 And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21
(Matthew 24) [LITV]
13 But the one who endures to the end, that one will be kept safe.
14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
15 Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), Dan. 11:31; 12:11
16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;
17 the one on the housetop, let him not go down to take anything out of his house;
18 and the one in the field, let him not turn back to take his garment.
19 But woe to the ones having a child in womb, and to those suckling in those days!
20 And pray that your flight will not occur in winter nor in a sabbath.
21 For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
22 And except those days were shortened, not any flesh would be saved. But on account of the elect, those days will be shortened.
So in it's context who are the ones who will be effected by the tribulation?
Well the scriptures actually tells us that it are the ones who reside in Judea that were adversely effected and that if they escaped out of Judea alltogether they would not be so effected by the powers that be (the Roman army) as much as were the judeans were, who stayed behind.
Now in this case, it appears that only most of the Christians had any discernment of impending doom, on Jerusalem and Judea and these were the ones that fled the area.
Now this does not mean that it was not hard for these Christians who fled, because as Jesus stated that it would be hard for them, because they have fled their homes with barely little to sustain them in the way of food
and also very little clothing to keep them warm if they had to flee in the winter time.
They were now at the mercy of the inhabitants of the city of Pella (of which apparently some of them fled to) and the wilderness of the mountains, having now to rely on Christ and their heavenly Father to provide for them during this time of hardship.
So until they were actually integrated into new societies and making their own way financially they would be continually under hardship and at the mercy of their hosts if they stayed with other Christians in the surrounding areas outside of Judea.
So how can we relate this to our time?
Well Jesus warned that when you see the disgusting thing (the seven headed wild beast) or its (Image) standing in the Holy Place, figurative Jerusalem and figurative Judea (the domain of christian religions) to begin fleeing as soon as you discern this and to warn others to flee as well.
So who is the one causing this desolation of modern day Jerusalem and Judea (Christianity)?
To my understanding now, it is none other than the horn that comes out of the fourth wild beast which is also symbolized in the book of Revelation as the seven headed wild beast which has one of it's head slaughtered and revived, which is also the eigth king and possibly the king of the north.
Now having said this am I not saying that no hardship will come upon the world as a whole.
No because Jesus himself prophesiesed that their would be nation against nation and Kingdom against Kingdom which we have already by large seen fullfilled in two world wars and perhaps a future third world war, and that their would be food shortages in one place after another ( a feature that we also have seen fullfilled particularly in the last twenty years or so in many third undeveloped countries and even in developed countries such as India and China), and also that there would be earthquakes in one place after another (a feature of the sign that we are now starting to see fullfilled, particularly in the last 15 years or so).
Also the ride of the four horsemen in the book of Revelation indicates a time of distress and fear, that will come upon the world.
What I'm indicating here is that the prophecy of the great tribulation is directed at God's people as they are the ones that will come under attack from the disgusting thing causing desolation in Matthew and Luke, and the seven wild beast in Revelation, and under attack of the fourth wild beast, in the book of Daniel, and also the king of the north, as mentioned in the book of Daniel also.
In both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was referring to a time of distress that would come upon all those who called themselves God's people, who were the Jews back then and who profess to be Christians today in our modern
times.
These are the ones who reside in the spiritual domains of organized Christian religions (Christendom) today.
Are Jehovah's Witnesses included among them today?
I'll let you decide.
Why am I considering this?
Well a scripture in the Catholic edition of the Good News Bible actually refers to this time of the great tribulation, as the "terrible persecution" or as another Good News Bible renders it as the "great ordeal".
Now in the proper context of this scripture, you could hardly say that the whole world comes under this type of persecution, can you?
Or that all the nations of the entire Roman empire came under this attack of Rome?
Because when we look into the original tribulation that happened back then which came upon those who called themselves God's people, it only really effected those who were in Jerusalem and the domain of Judea, and by
large did not necessarily effected any of the other nations that were around Judea, unless they were in the area as alien residents at the time.
The disgusting thing that was within the Holy place, Jerusalem and all of Judea proved to be from the encamped Roman armies who were surrounding Jerusalem in 66 CE.
This was prior to the tribulation that occurred upon Jerusalem and Judea.
This tribulation only came upon Judea and all it's inhabitants.
Now we go to (Revelation 7) [LITV]
Which states, in verse 14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those coming out of the great tribulation; and they washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat.
17 Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them, and will lead them on the living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.
Here we see that those of the great crowd are the ones who survive spiritually and indeed physically as ones who now are clothed in robes that have becomewhitened by the blood of the lamb particularly during this time
period which is referred to as the Great Tribulation.
But what could the great tribulation today parallel, and whom does it effect?
Does it effect everyone on the earth as is the current understanding of some of the Christian groups on the earth?
Well what does the Bible actually say on this matter?
Daniel 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
19 Then I wanted to know the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all of them, very frightening, whose teeth were of iron and its nails bronze; who devoured and crushed, and trampled what was left with its feet,
20 also of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other which came up, and before whom three fell, even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth speaking great things, and its look was greater than his fellows.
21 I was looking, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came. And judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Two things come to notice here in this scripture.
(1) is that the horn which comes out of the ten horns of the fourth wild beast, make war with God's anointed ones and actually overcomes them for a period of time.
And secondly this is for a specified period of time.
Now how long is this period of time?
Well verse 25 of the same chapter actually answers this.
25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time.
Notice here its refers to a time period of 3 and a half times, or 3 and a half years, or 1260 days, or 42 months.
(Revelation 12) [LITV]
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman who bore the male.
14 And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent's face.
15 And the serpent threw water out of his mouth like a river after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried off by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon threw out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(Revelation 11) [LITV]
2 And cast aside the outside court of the temple, and do not measure it. For it was given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city forty two months.
3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.
(revelation 13) [LITV]
4 And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast; who is able to make war with it?
5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it.
6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven.
7 And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21
So here we see that God's people will indeed come under attack and tribulation during these times.
The tribulation is for them as these are the ones who are now proclaiming to be Christians and who will come under attack of the 7 headed wild beast and who will live under extreme hardship and persecution.
In fact to the point where none of God's people would spiritually survive (those who stay faithful) during this time.
They could also be in danger of physically being exterminated as well.
So during this time it is God's people (Christians) and the Chosen ones that come under attack and tribulations as brought about by the 7 headed wild beast.
But who of the Christians are the ones really effected by this time of distress?
(Revelation 13) [LITV]
4 And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast; who is able to make war with it?
5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it.
6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven.
7 And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21
(Matthew 24) [LITV]
13 But the one who endures to the end, that one will be kept safe.
14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
15 Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), Dan. 11:31; 12:11
16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;
17 the one on the housetop, let him not go down to take anything out of his house;
18 and the one in the field, let him not turn back to take his garment.
19 But woe to the ones having a child in womb, and to those suckling in those days!
20 And pray that your flight will not occur in winter nor in a sabbath.
21 For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
22 And except those days were shortened, not any flesh would be saved. But on account of the elect, those days will be shortened.
So in it's context who are the ones who will be effected by the tribulation?
Well the scriptures actually tells us that it are the ones who reside in Judea that were adversely effected and that if they escaped out of Judea alltogether they would not be so effected by the powers that be (the Roman army) as much as were the judeans were, who stayed behind.
Now in this case, it appears that only most of the Christians had any discernment of impending doom, on Jerusalem and Judea and these were the ones that fled the area.
Now this does not mean that it was not hard for these Christians who fled, because as Jesus stated that it would be hard for them, because they have fled their homes with barely little to sustain them in the way of food
and also very little clothing to keep them warm if they had to flee in the winter time.
They were now at the mercy of the inhabitants of the city of Pella (of which apparently some of them fled to) and the wilderness of the mountains, having now to rely on Christ and their heavenly Father to provide for them during this time of hardship.
So until they were actually integrated into new societies and making their own way financially they would be continually under hardship and at the mercy of their hosts if they stayed with other Christians in the surrounding areas outside of Judea.
So how can we relate this to our time?
Well Jesus warned that when you see the disgusting thing (the seven headed wild beast) or its (Image) standing in the Holy Place, figurative Jerusalem and figurative Judea (the domain of christian religions) to begin fleeing as soon as you discern this and to warn others to flee as well.
So who is the one causing this desolation of modern day Jerusalem and Judea (Christianity)?
To my understanding now, it is none other than the horn that comes out of the fourth wild beast which is also symbolized in the book of Revelation as the seven headed wild beast which has one of it's head slaughtered and revived, which is also the eigth king and possibly the king of the north.
Now having said this am I not saying that no hardship will come upon the world as a whole.
No because Jesus himself prophesiesed that their would be nation against nation and Kingdom against Kingdom which we have already by large seen fullfilled in two world wars and perhaps a future third world war, and that their would be food shortages in one place after another ( a feature that we also have seen fullfilled particularly in the last twenty years or so in many third undeveloped countries and even in developed countries such as India and China), and also that there would be earthquakes in one place after another (a feature of the sign that we are now starting to see fullfilled, particularly in the last 15 years or so).
Also the ride of the four horsemen in the book of Revelation indicates a time of distress and fear, that will come upon the world.
What I'm indicating here is that the prophecy of the great tribulation is directed at God's people as they are the ones that will come under attack from the disgusting thing causing desolation in Matthew and Luke, and the seven wild beast in Revelation, and under attack of the fourth wild beast, in the book of Daniel, and also the king of the north, as mentioned in the book of Daniel also.
In both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was referring to a time of distress that would come upon all those who called themselves God's people, who were the Jews back then and who profess to be Christians today in our modern
times.
These are the ones who reside in the spiritual domains of organized Christian religions (Christendom) today.
Are Jehovah's Witnesses included among them today?
I'll let you decide.