A few thought on ‘This Generation’

[Peter]

As we have new light on the way here’s a A few thought on ‘This Generation’

As a pendulum moves backwards and forwards so does Watchtower doctrine – the society identifies this to-ing and fro-ing as ‘New Light’ (Proverbs 4:18). A resent example of this was in February 2008 Watchtower (and now 2010) - ‘This Generation’. Tracing the Watchtowers own publications it becomes evident that ‘This Generation’ has changed its identity on six different occasions, two of which as if a reverse gear was engaged. Taking into consideration ‘New Light’ can not contradict what has already been taught the following confines that theory to the dustbin.

CT Russell in his book ‘Battle for Armageddon’ speaks of "this generation" a in a general sense, namely those alive at a noteworthy time of history, for arguments sake lets call that light. By 1927 J.F. Rutherford overturned Russell’s original understanding to mean a “new creation. . . Some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon." By 1942 the pendulum swung to encompass not just the anointed but humanity in general. And Seven years later a timeframe was introduced - this Generation or those living during the time of the Great War (1914) would experience the ‘Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven’. This remained the understanding until 1995. Given the light is getting brighter and Jehovah is using the organization to enlighten us about his word the Watchtower proves lucid to the reader, not only that but it has a kind of lucidity that enraptures the reader to the point of delight, thus a person questions little about a pervious teaching and views the next generation of doctrine as ‘new light’.

During this time period of the ‘1914 generation’ being taught how many Jehovah’s witnesses preached the end would come before ‘this generation’ would pass away. The Watchtower recently ran an article warning Jehovah’s witnesses against wasting time with valueless things, yet how many hours were spent in the ministry doing just that, speaking of ‘valueless things’ – was the 1914 generation teaching ever light- NO - it was no more that an artfully contrive story, a falsehood and has most certainly has been proven wrong. Nevertheless when it became evident to the governing body the 1914 generation was unworkable what did they do – revamped CT Russell’s a “people in general (or wicked generation), who were living at a significant time in history” – then for some reason in 2008 flipped it back to J.F. Rutherford’s 1927 version "Some members of the new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon” - light on - new light, lights goes out - new light back on – really was it ever light to begin with, talk about going in circles. Some use the excuse this is a current understanding, but if the light were getting brighter why didn’t the society stay with Rutherford’s 1927 teaching of the ‘new creation’ – the Watchtower maintain this is the now a ‘definitive version’, if that is the case why deviate from truth for the next 81 years. Really is there such a thing as ‘current’ or ‘present truth’ – surely once truth has been reviled it ought to remain static even if clarification surrounds it. We know that the dead are dead, that’s a truth – if certain clarifications contained in scripture supports that fact even though conjecturally all well and good – but the fact still remains the dead are dead per-se. So who was right Russell in ‘Battle of Armageddon’, Rutherford’s 1927 version or the Watchtowers now ‘definitive’ understanding. The failure for the Governing body to maintain the status-quo has caused some to stumble and others to question the legitimacy of the Governing Body itself. The Awake! April 22, 1970, p.8. carried the heading "Changes That Disturb People”

“One of the reasons is that people are disturbed by what is happening in their churches. Yes, millions of persons have been shocked to learn that things they were taught as being vital for salvation are now considered by their church to be wrong. Have you, too, felt discouragement, or even despair, because of what is happening in your church?... The inability of the Church to explain its position Scripturally makes evident an important fact: The Catholic Church has not based its teachings upon what God’s Word says. Rather, it has founded many of its beliefs and practices on the unstable traditions of men”

Admittedly the ‘generation’ teaching is not fundamental to salvation, but to spend forty years or so teaching the end would arrive before the generation of 1914 passed away is a sham to say the least. In the light of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 how truthful are the words written in the 1993 book ‘Purpose of Life’ page27 par16 “Thus, all the features of the last days must take place within the lifetime of one generation, the generation of 1914. So some people who were alive in 1914 will still be alive when this system comes to its end. That generation of people is now very advanced in years, indicating that there is not much time left before God brings this present system of things to an end.” Really brothers does it matter? Google ‘This Generation’ and ‘Watchtower’ together and see the reproach and mockery this have brought on Jehovah name – this flip-flopping has turn the Watchtower and Jehovah’s name into a circus of disdain.



Peter

[elihu]

Hi Peter

yes this teaching is going to contribute to the fall of the WTO, because it is time based and therefore can be proven to have failed the test of time.

and so what is there left for those who cling to the WTO ever changing light?
what will happen when that false light goes out?
, they seem to be like flies around a light bulb mistaking the man made light with the God given light of the truth, and so darkness will surround them.

" for we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His Majesty"

The invisible presence of Christ underpins all wto light
it supports the generation teaching
the appointment of the faithful and discrete slave
and the annointed being gathered together in one organisation.

How i wish they were right about these things, but sadly scripture does not support these teachings.

in fact scripture tells of those who will teach false hoods, and how by doing so, eventually the way of truth will be ridiculed by outsiders

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction
and many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed"

and so Peter tells us that there will be false teachers among Gods people, and it hurts to say this but i am starting to wonder just how extensive those false teachings actually are "even denying the Lord who BOUGHT THEM"

excellent post Peter, well worth developing evn though it hurts to do so

elihu

[Jahsdisciple]

Hi Peter

yes this teaching is going to contribute to the fall of the WTO, because it is time based and therefore can be proven to have failed the test of time.


" for we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His Majesty"



"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction
and many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed"

and so Peter tells us that there will be false teachers among Gods people, and it hurts to say this but i am starting to wonder just how extensive those false teachings actually are "even denying the Lord who BOUGHT THEM"

excellent post Peter, well worth developing evn though it hurts to do so

elihu

One doctrine,doesnt discount the rest of their understanding. And the more you harp on it,the more it will be a stumbling block to you...to the point that you imply by using the above verse,that there is "cunning" behind it. Which implies the intention to decieve. This was not their intention. They are blind in this respect...and its not deliberate. They cling onto 1914 because they really do think its right...not because of trying to decieve anyone.

Then you go further and say that by this "1914" idea,they may "even denying the Lord who BOUGHT THEM"...this is just non sence !

Why would they deny Jesus since they claim to be going to heaven and he is the only way there ?

And if it turns out "1914" is wrong(and only time will tell), is this the biggest thing within the Org ? NO. Being there many years,I really couldnt care less if it is wrong ! If Im only there because the end is near,then Im there for the wrong reason.

The biggest thing is that Jehovah is real,thats His name,he will step in when HE is ready and that His name will be vindicated of the lies satan said about Him. How can 1914 compare to this ? It DOESNT !

1914 is way down the list of important things...and the more you keep harping on it,the bigger an issue it will be..and its not...but it will be if you keep focusing on it.

If we find we keep being hurt by this issue,then we need to re-focus on other important issues that far outweigh 1914 and its importance. Its an issue ,there is no denying it. But move on and see the bigger picture of the whole,not one small piece.

[Peter]

Actually I believe in this instance doctrine does matter when it’s based on absolutism, I say that because those who don’t swallow it are thrown out of the congregation. If the society had certain teachings that were current understandings but allowed an individual certain autonomy as long they weren’t dogmatic that would be OK I could live with it, at least the individual wouldn’t have their backs against the wall or be in fear of what they say.

Absolute truth does exist; we though simply don’t have a monopoly on it, just our God given intelligence to fathom out what’s what.

Question to the board. What did Jesus mean by “This Generation”?

[truthseeker]

Greetings Peter
I remember you: Welcome back fellow JW!!
Great post; What a breath of FRESH AIR I love how your reasoning’s are coherent and take into account the ramifications of this error being crammed down the throat of anyone conceding to worship the self appointed FDS class……..
Thanks and look forward to your continued participation on the board.:D

truthseeker

[Juan23]

1914 is way down the list of important things...and the more you keep harping on it,the bigger an issue it will be..and its not...but it will be if you keep focusing on it.

Hi JD,

During my JC I was told that belief in 1914 as the date of the enthronement of Jesus was central to the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses. Then I was asked "do I believe in 1914?".

Since at the time I no longer believed in 1914, I keep quite. I was then told that "by your silence you show that don't believe in 1914. Therefore you are an APOSTATE!"

For some 1914 is central to their belief.
For you it is a trivial matter.
Should I think it is trivial? I think it is BIG! It is a big lie. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or caused by ignorance. It caused harm to people and probably will yet harm others. Time will not tell - it already did. I'm really amazed that a smart fellow like you still defend 1914.

[elihu]

One doctrine,doesnt discount the rest of their understanding. And the more you harp on it,the more it will be a stumbling block to you...to the point that you imply by using the above verse,that there is "cunning" behind it. Which implies the intention to decieve. This was not their intention. They are blind in this respect...and its not deliberate. They cling onto 1914 because they really do think its right...not because of trying to decieve anyone.

Then you go further and say that by this "1914" idea,they may "even denying the Lord who BOUGHT THEM"...this is just non sence !

Why would they deny Jesus since they claim to be going to heaven and he is the only way there ?

And if it turns out "1914" is wrong(and only time will tell), is this the biggest thing within the Org ? NO. Being there many years,I really couldnt care less if it is wrong ! If Im only there because the end is near,then Im there for the wrong reason.

The biggest thing is that Jehovah is real,thats His name,he will step in when HE is ready and that His name will be vindicated of the lies satan said about Him. How can 1914 compare to this ? It DOESNT !

1914 is way down the list of important things...and the more you keep harping on it,the bigger an issue it will be..and its not...but it will be if you keep focusing on it.

If we find we keep being hurt by this issue,then we need to re-focus on other important issues that far outweigh 1914 and its importance. Its an issue ,there is no denying it. But move on and see the bigger picture of the whole,not one small piece.


Hi JD
believe me i do not want to harp on about these things, but i do need to be able to understand the effect of them.


[QUOTE=Jahsdisciple;43402]One doctrine,doesnt discount the rest of their understanding. And the more you harp on it,the more it will be a stumbling block to you...to the point that you imply by using the above verse,that there is "cunning" behind it. Which implies the intention to decieve. This was not their intention. They are blind in this respect...and its not deliberate. They cling onto 1914 because they really do think its right...not because of trying to decieve anyone.



firstly JD i do not believe that the rank annd file JWs are deliberatly going door to door to decieve people, but it is they themselves who are victims of deception.
and to be frank it is not me that is stumbling here i have fell down many times and had to get up again, but with GOds help not the WTO , it is not easy to shed things we once believed to be absolute.




Then you go further and say that by this "1914" idea,they may "even denying the Lord who BOUGHT THEM"...this is just non sence !

Why would they deny Jesus since they claim to be going to heaven and he is the only way there ?



JD it is not i that goes further it is scripture ,it is Peter who says these things not me, so what did peter mean by this statement?
is he refering to the 1914 doctrine i do not think so. time will tell

is he speaking about the WTO and JWs only , he certainly speaks of those who have introduced these teachings into the flock.
so either JWs are soley the flock and that scripture applies to them or they are not soley Gods flock and that scripture fits elsewhere.

My brother JD i do not mean to hurt you or anyone here, i did say i wish they were correct, but they are being decieved
or at leat that is how i understand what Peter is implying by what he says.

tell me this if i were to go door to door with the scriptures and roberts book as a back up what would a would happen if i came across a JW household?
would they examine the scriptures with an open mind or would they present the mindset that so many others have presented to them

"My religion is the true religion because my leaders say it is"

and that is what it comes down to i think, can anyone free themselves from untruths taught by those they trust.
i think they can but it is not an easy journey a one filled with hurt, anger, despair, until you find the truth and the truth will set them free.
that truth is very simple and not found in relams of prophecy or end time philosophy it is simple

" that GOd so loved the world that he gave his only Son that all those who believed in Him may not perish but have everlasting life"

" if you confess with your voice that Jesus is Lord and believe in your hearts that God raised him up from the dead you will be saved"

and that i think is what Peter was implying that by not focusing on these central truths these simple but life saving things eventually they will become last on our priorities of thought and word, and even though we think we may be alive we may well be dead.

sorry JD i did not intend to upset you or anyone

[truthseeker]

This is the $69.00 question; what effect does the teaching of Jesus invisible presence starting on October 1914 have on the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Flat out everything, it is the central doctrine that has driven volumes of prophetic interpretation all of it revolving around that precise date. It has been the impetus of the worldwide preaching work, the main motivation for organizing the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society INC ending with them becoming the world leader in printing bible based literature.

It has for almost a century given a revolving small group of men absolute authority over millions of people because of a claimed period of testing by Jehovah which they passed.
Then subsequently they have been given all of Jesus possessions on earth, they have indeed begun to rule as kings!

To minimize the effect this one central belief has had on modern day Christians would be like the fictitious rumor of an Ostrich placing there head in a hole reasoning danger is not present because they can’t see it.

[Marque100]

But what would things look like today if there never was a 1914? Like you say 1914 is important for many doctrines/prophesy interpretations - its the date that created the sense of urgency, which drove things forward, that builtup the watchtower - so, perhaps without it, we would not have what we have today.

[truthseeker]

But what would things look like today if there never was a 1914? Like you say 1914 is important for many doctrines/prophesy interpretations - its the date that created the sense of urgency, which drove things forward, that builtup the watchtower - so, perhaps without it, we would not have what we have today.

Yea I was thinking the same thing!!!!
LOL
It’s what do they call it a conundrum.
The mystery of this lawlessness something something!!!
It’s like Jehovah is always several moves ahead of satans attempts of subverting what he proposes!!!
:confused:

[SlaveForJah]

But what would things look like today if there never was a 1914? Like you say 1914 is important for many doctrines/prophesy interpretations - its the date that created the sense of urgency, which drove things forward, that builtup the watchtower - so, perhaps without it, we would not have what we have today.

Would that be a bad thing?

What exactly do we have today?

What did the Apostles and First Century Christians have?

What is the goal toward which all men are pressing? The Watchtower?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Eyes & Ears]

Good Day Everyone,

Just would like to add my thoughts.

It seems that many inside Jehovah's household are waking up, beginning

to see that all is not well in this so called "spiritual paradise". Many are being

stumbled, may leave Jehovah's household and never return, etc. etc., as I said on

prevous posts. Some, however, do not give up they continue to stay loyal to

JEHOVAH inspite of the difficulties we all are experiencing right now. They seek

answers as many of us here have done and continue to do right now.


The problem is though (my opinion as I see it) once it is understood that all is

not well, why is not more time spent on how to build up those who are broken

rather than trying to understand the reasons why the WTO/GB whatever arrived

at certain dates. We can spend a lifetime on why the leaders of the

WTS are doing and have done what they have done.


The reason why so much is happening inside Jehovah's household right

now is due to the evil slave / Man Of Lawlessness sitting in the Midst of Jehovah's

household. Therefore Jehovah allows this operation of error (2 Thess) I know

most of us who have been here for awhile understand this.

Isn't it interesting though how all these things are really being understood


by many now. (Lots is being exposed, revealed) To me that is extremely


interesting. What I mean is things were being exposed before hand, but did you

ever give any thought as to why so much is being understood now by some of us

and not others and really was not understood years before now?

What exactly do we think is happening here now at this critical time? Why now

is there so much understanding or revelation/exposing? Is it to continue to

talk about these errors only or is it revealed to help others turn to Jehovah at this

time as things are being worked out behind the scenes. Can we build up, by

continuing to stress certain issues that have been dealt with over and over and

over. What I mean is talk and expose yes, but also offer suggestions in how


to cope with these many horrendous carryings on inside Jehovah's household.


I'm not complaining, not tearing down, not talking down, not trying to be

a no it all as I say when I talk like this. But it seems to me that OK we all know

what is happening, those who are just learning know something is wrong. Is it

really necessary to continue to disect why the WT/GB does all they do

over and over and over. The net is full of this stuff.


Would it not be more rewarding to explain to folks these things

are happening and here is the reason why, and here are scriptures

to help you to remain firm, build up your faith and not give up.

I'm not saying not to discuss, but I am saying when we discuss what are

we doing after we point out the errors to help others draw close to Jehovah

and HOLD ON TIGHT? That is all I am saying.


Many are still learning, holding on by the last ounce of spirituality that they

have. We all know what that is like most of us have we have been there and we

understand the shock that goes along with it.


This Generation, 1914, 1918, 1975, 1874, 79 or any other date is what it is. The

question remains WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ONCE WE UNDERSTAND

THIS? How are we going to help others to get past this and still function and

stay obedient to Jehovah with love and faith. What exactly is important now?




I hope you don't do what I did, I left several times and made a complete

total spiritual idiot of myself. Why because I did not do my homework,

I blamed the org, the slave, the b/s for my lack of spiritual foundation.

To some degree it was true, but really it is and was my responsibility to

grow to maturity. Hard lessons learned.


So with all that I have said, I believe the questions really are:


What do we do to remain faithful to Jehovah as we learn what is happening

inside his household? Do we abandon and go off on our own? HA! many of us

who have done that know what that is like. Do we blurt out everything we

have learned and tell them about it? Is that what Jehovah asked us to do?

Or do we actively wait on Jehovah to direct our steps?

As we look around today, there is much going on inside Jehovah's household.

We know that it certainly is not Jehovah's fault, however he is allowing it. WHY?

That is the question, WHY. He tells us why. Once we know the why it makes

it all come together. We can then help others understand why, so they do not

have to go through what many of us went through.


So to me the issue now is those of us who know what we know should help

others inside and outside remain strong, build them up, encourage them to HOLD

ON TIGHT. Lots of people come here to visit. They are spiritually shocked,

broken, hurt full of pain, anger and some even bitter. So to me along with

pointing out errors there should be something to show them how to continue

to hold on. That is all I am saying.


Whether we believe in 1914, or any other date is irrelevant. The issue is

what are we going to do once we find out these things that are wrecking havoc

on our spiritual lives. What I mean by that statement is this, we all have gone

through stuff, I know I have. I have had to re-adjust much of what I thought

I understood, it was not easy to let go and grow. The main thing in my opinion

now is discuss but help build up. When Jehovah says (my words) OK this is it,

do you think he is gonna ask about 1914, this generation, GB/FDS? The

important issue is what did we do with what he showed us. Did we remain

FAITHFUL TO OUR HEAVENLY FATHER AND HELP OTHERS OR DID

WE JUST POINT OUT MISTAKES.




Me thinks that now is the time to do more encouraging. But those are just

my thoughts. As I always say on important thread like this, I am just

expressing my thoughts. I have a little pea brain, I am not as intellectual

and spiritually UP as some of the heavies here and perhaps may not express

myself as great. I tend to ramble sorry. It's an over 60 thing.:):D


I express in love and from my heart not to cause a problem OKEY DOKEY.


Your sister

E & E


2 Tim 3

2 Thess 2


Everyone have a wonderful weekend and hope you take my thoughts here
as they were intended.

[uglyandthin]

Hi All:

There are only 2 World War I Veterans still alive. I think they would represent that "generation" if that's what Jesus meant when he spoke of "this generation" "by no means" not passing away until all these things occur.

We are very close to the Judgement of the Watchtower, that Harlot, so perhaps they were right after all, but in a way that will not be good for them. Larouche says to watch out for the Ides of March, he too may be correct as things are plainly coming to a head. I don't think it will be 1914 that the WTBTS will be judged adversly for whether it is wrong or right, but it will be thier unfaithfulness to their husbandly owner which will derail thier train. In addition, thier unwillingness to repent of thier sins, or even to acknowledge that they have sinned against God and his Son will not put them in good stead. You can be a grave sinner and still be beloved of God if you later have a truely repentant heart, but you cannot be an unrepentant sinner and have any favorable standing with him. It will be those that humble themselves enough to repent in a Godly way that will again regain God's favor, both of the remnant of Christ's brothers and of those who are not part of his bride, not necessarily those who do a lot of field service. Just my opinion, of course.

Frank a/k/a uglyandthin

[FutureMan]

Hi All:

There are only 2 World War I Veterans still alive. I think they would represent that "generation" if that's what Jesus meant when he spoke of "this generation" "by no means" not passing away until all these things occur.

We are very close to the Judgement of the Watchtower, that Harlot, so perhaps they were right after all, but in a way that will not be good for them. Larouche says to watch out for the Ides of March, he too may be correct as things are plainly coming to a head. I don't think it will be 1914 that the WTBTS will be judged adversly for whether it is wrong or right, but it will be thier unfaithfulness to their husbandly owner which will derail thier train. In addition, thier unwillingness to repent of thier sins, or even to acknowledge that they have sinned against God and his Son will not put them in good stead. You can be a grave sinner and still be beloved of God if you later have a truely repentant heart, but you cannot be an unrepentant sinner and have any favorable standing with him. It will be those that humble themselves enough to repent in a Godly way that will again regain God's favor, both of the remnant of Christ's brothers and of those who are not part of his bride, not necessarily those who do a lot of field service. Just my opinion, of course.

Frank a/k/a uglyandthin

Hello uglyandthin, unless these words ("by no means") are lost in translation, from my understanding of the English language "by no means" means that this generation would still have a quite a few still alive and kicking, that would be witnesses to the sign and the Kingdom that is coming to put things right on this planet.

I'm afraid two veterans left alive that went through the first world war, does not cut it for me.

[FGM]

But what would things look like today if there never was a 1914? Like you say 1914 is important for many doctrines/prophesy interpretations - its the date that created the sense of urgency, which drove things forward, that builtup the watchtower - so, perhaps without it, we would not have what we have today.

This is an interesting point. As we know Christ is head of the congregations and he is overseeing this work. He gave the commission to "go and make disciples" so why would this spreading of a "false" message be allowed for such along time? The old excuse about "New light" does not cut it anymore. In fact the scripture says the light get's "brighter," nothing about introducing something new. ( Even if you want to apply it to such changes of thought) So what was the purpose of this idea of the 1914 generation being packaged as truth for so long? Why wasn't it nipped in the bud or changed before now?

Can we assume that it was allowed for a purpose that we cannot even realize right now?

[mrgalleria]

"Can we assume that it was allowed for a purpose that we cannot even realize right now?"

Yes.

[truthseeker]

This is an interesting point. As we know Christ is head of the congregations and he is overseeing this work. He gave the commission to "go and make disciples" so why would this spreading of a "false" message be allowed for such along time? The old excuse about "New light" does not cut it anymore. In fact the scripture says the light get's "brighter," nothing about introducing something new. ( Even if you want to apply it to such changes of thought) So what was the purpose of this idea of the 1914 generation being packaged as truth for so long? Why wasn't it nipped in the bud or changed before now?

Can we assume that it was allowed for a purpose that we cannot even realize right now?

Greetings FGM; good to see you again hope all is well!:)
truthseeker

[elihu]

This is an interesting point. As we know Christ is head of the congregations and he is overseeing this work. He gave the commission to "go and make disciples" so why would this spreading of a "false" message be allowed for such along time? The old excuse about "New light" does not cut it anymore. In fact the scripture says the light get's "brighter," nothing about introducing something new. ( Even if you want to apply it to such changes of thought) So what was the purpose of this idea of the 1914 generation being packaged as truth for so long? Why wasn't it nipped in the bud or changed before now?

Can we assume that it was allowed for a purpose that we cannot even realize right now?

it would seem so and perhaps that is why Peter wrote the things he did , so that when these things come to pass we have scripture that has been telling us for centuries that these events will take place.

" by covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time there judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber"

so peter seems to me to be warning us of a time when this will happen, But Jehovah is well aware of it and has an end result for it.

so my conclusion can only be that either Peter is warning everyone who believes in Christ, whatever denomination to which they belong,or whatever period of time they have lived, about false teachers.

or he is speaking about an annointed group at a specific point in time.
i think in the context of 2 Peter it is the latter.

elihu

[Peter]

This is an interesting point. As we know Christ is head of the congregations and he is overseeing this work. He gave the commission to "go and make disciples" so why would this spreading of a "false" message be allowed for such along time? The old excuse about "New light" does not cut it anymore. In fact the scripture says the light get's "brighter," nothing about introducing something new. ( Even if you want to apply it to such changes of thought) So what was the purpose of this idea of the 1914 generation being packaged as truth for so long? Why wasn't it nipped in the bud or changed before now?

Can we assume that it was allowed for a purpose that we cannot even realize right now?

I believe the problem to be Brother & Sisters are in awe of the society, and lets face it to all outward appearances its a breath-taking organization that can be compared to no other – a brotherhood that’s transcended all boarders. It’s as if Jehovah has placed it on high (in many respects he has as they are his people). I for one years back used the organization along with the video as a way of preaching - “The Organization Behind the Name” for the most part took my breath away. Even so unbeknown to Witnesses the Organization has become the idol spoken of in Isaiah 48

“Hear this, O house of Jacob, YOU who are calling yourselves by the name of Israel and who have come forth from the very waters of Judah, YOU who are swearing by the name of Jehovah and who make mention even of the God of Israel, not in truth and not in righteousness. For they have called themselves as being from the holy city, and upon the God of Israel they have supported themselves, Jehovah of armies being his name…My own idol has done them, and my own carved image and my own molten image have commanded them”

In one of Roberts’ essays he asked if the apostle Paul were here today what question would he raise with JW’s: “Are you walking by sight of by faith?” Most would say by sight but once the operation[s] of error is exposed 1914 and all the other paraphernalia what then! Many consider 1914 to be unassailable, or the collapse of the Watchtower unthinkable. The exposure of prophecy and their continual modification of interpretation has caused “the couch [to be]… too short for stretching oneself on, and the woven sheet itself is [too] narrow when wrapping oneself up” Isaiah 28:20.

I can only conclude for this reason Jehovah has allowed this to happen to resolve the issues with idolatry once and for all.

As for nipping it in the bud, back in the early 80s Bethel had a purged on Apostates who were questioning the generation and 1914, perhaps Jehovah was telling them something.

Peter

[arimatthewdavies]

a wicked and corupt generation seeks a sighn and none will be given other than the sighn of johna.

let us understant that the sighn of johna is not just jesus death and resurection after 3 days.
but also the sighn of johna is a picture of jehovahs wittnesses today sent to preach to a wicked world,
then when hundreds of thousands repented the destruction foretold was postponed by jehovah!
let jehovahs wittnesses not set under their leafy vine[the cool comfort of the many who repented}
with remorse and self pity that jehovah did not destroy acording to the words they preached!
but instead rejoyce and spread the word and example of the sighn of johna! quite simply jehovah [a god of mercy] may hold back destruction each time johna[jehovahs wittnesses] saves nineva [the world] by its seeming unfulfilled warning of destruction for the wicked!

[elihu]

are we in the generation that will not pass away?

well what things occur at the start of Christs explanation of the signs of the end of the age.

" but when you hear of wars and rumours of wars, do not be troubled for such things must happen but the end is not yet"

firstly what is a generation , how long, where does it start and stop?

and is Christ explainings that those of that generation will hear of wars and rumours of wars.
or will nation against nation initiate the start point?

help!

elihu

[shikinah]

What an interesting thread, even though the subject has been discussed before, it always touches the hearts of earnest truth seekers. So many valid points which are all of importance. But as it says in the book of Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Why now somebody asked? because honest hearted ones will seek to worship in spirit and in truth, and the holy spirit is revealing whats been hidden, now that the Watchtower has gathered those who seeked Jehovah and his son Christ Jesus, the TRUE light will be revealed in accurate understanding of the scriptures. Yet those who idolise the Watchtower fail to see the two fold prophesy in the book of Isaiah, their light of understanding is too dim to see their own destiny and judgement.
Jehovahs wisdom fore saw these events, and as sister E&E stated we now need to be thinking and preparing ourselves, as we are the ones who now have the responsibility at some point in the near future to help others. We are blessed to be aware and should cast aside any bitterness or anger toward the Watchtower, but praise Jah for helping us to understand his wisdom despite our human failings.


Shikinah

[shikinah]

are we in the generation that will not pass away?

well what things occur at the start of Christs explanation of the signs of the end of the age.

" but when you hear of wars and rumours of wars, do not be troubled for such things must happen but the end is not yet"

firstly what is a generation , how long, where does it start and stop?

and is Christ explainings that those of that generation will hear of wars and rumours of wars.
or will nation against nation initiate the start point?

help!

elihu

I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I believe we are that generation. We are hearing a lot of rumours about war, increasing of earth quakes, man ruining the earth, love of the greater number cooling off, when they are saying peace and security, the love of money rather than the love of god. Just these things in themselves are a constant feature. Never before has their ever been so much discussion over a One World Government and false prophets. Benjamin Creme has recently anounced that their maitreya has recently spoken live on TV, but will not reveal himself untill he has a large following. I dont think all these signs were happening in 1914:confused:

[FutureMan]

are we in the generation that will not pass away?

well what things occur at the start of Christs explanation of the signs of the end of the age.

" but when you hear of wars and rumours of wars, do not be troubled for such things must happen but the end is not yet"

firstly what is a generation , how long, where does it start and stop?

and is Christ explainings that those of that generation will hear of wars and rumours of wars.
or will nation against nation initiate the start point?

help!

elihu

Hi Elihu I believe a generation as far as Jesus was concerned and the scriptures, is 40 years.

Why do I think this?

Well here is a couple of considerations.

When Jesus told the apostles about the destruction of Jerusalem, it took just under 40 years for this to occur.

When Moses and the Israelites left Egypt they spent 40 years in the Wilderness

26 And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
27 Until when shall I bear with this evil company who are murmuring against Me? I have heard the murmurings of the sons of Israel which they are murmuring against Me.
28 Say to them, As I live, says Jehovah, as surely as you have spoken in My ears, so I will do to you.
29 Your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered sons, as to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, in that you have murmured against Me.

Notice how Jehovah stipulated that twenty years and upward would be the generation that would stay in the wilderness until they died, none of these were to enter into the promised land except for Caleb and Joshua.

Even Moses would not enter the promise land, but Jehovah did allow him to see it from a far.

So here twenty years was considered to be the age of understanding, and being responsible for their own actions.

Here is a prophecy relation to a generation, a prophecy from God through Moses.


Deuteronomy 32
1 Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak. And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain; my speech shall drop down as the dew, as the small rain on the tender plant, and as the showers on the grass;
3 because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah and ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He.
5 They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.

[elihu]

I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I believe we are that generation. We are hearing a lot of rumours about war, increasing of earth quakes, man ruining the earth, love of the greater number cooling off, when they are saying peace and security, the love of money rather than the love of god. Just these things in themselves are a constant feature. Never before has their ever been so much discussion over a One World Government and false prophets. Benjamin Creme has recently anounced that their maitreya has recently spoken live on TV, but will not reveal himself untill he has a large following. I dont think all these signs were happening in 1914:confused:

yes Shikinah we must be close to these things as the signs Christ gave or definitley increasing. it would be a good reference point to move back in time to say 1980 and just look at the Changes that have occured in the world



elihuHi Elihu I believe a generation as far as Jesus was concerned and the scriptures, is 40 years.

Why do I think this?

Well here is a couple of considerations.

When Jesus told the apostles about the destruction of Jerusalem, it took just under 40 years for this to occur.

When Moses and the Israelites left Egypt they spent 40 years in the Wilderness




i see futureman that does seem a reasonable assumption. it provides for people being old enough to act responsibly (20 years and over) and it allows for the average life span of the human being.
to allow those 20 year olds to be alive when the end comes.

so i might not see it


elihu

[Peter]

In both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 Jesus gave signs that were only relevant to that time period 33-70AD.

According to Barns notes at Matthew 24:34 it states:
“This generation ... – This age; this race of people. A generation is about 30 or 40 years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken”

From 33 – 70AD is a generation, was there to be a twofold fulfilment or was it just meant for that time period.

If the last days and the conclusion of the system have two different time slots, (1) the preaching takes place during the last days and (2) the Lords day is most likely a three & half years timeframe, where does “This generation” slot into that.

Let’s say the 20th century was representative of the last day’s i.e. rumours of war and a great net cast out to collect the remaining one of Sons of the Kingdom and the other sheep. Question: where does “This Generation” fit into that?

If the Lords day is three and a half years (or seven for that matter) there would be no point of “This Generation” as the time span is too short to count.

It seems having a ‘definitive generation’ that can be easily identified in the time of the end is problematic to say the least.

I am starting to wonder if "This Generation" had its fulfilment in the fist century.

If the anointed continue to grow the Watchtowers interpretation of overlapping generations can continue for decades to come.

REALLY - WAS "THIS GENERATION" MEANT ONLY FOR 33AD – 70AD – THE CONFUSION IS AGONIZING

[Jahsdisciple]

I think an important part of the expression "this generation" is looking in the context. Jesus was talking about the time of the end and likened this period to a 'season'...SUMMER. They come and go. BUT you can tell when a season is about to start by certain signs..like buds on a tree.

Once the season starts and we are really in it,it has a period of time and it will finnish...and this is the context of Jesus comment about "this generation". As soon as it had started by the signs,those living in it would see it out..that is,they would live within this season and wouldnt 'pass away' till the period known as the 'last days' were completed.

We cant afford to be fixated with how this verse supposedly fits in with 1914. Then we will keep on guessing about "how long the 'generation' will live for" Jesus was saying the period of the last days was like a season.

AND of course,once a season starts we know it WILL finnish because other seasons always follow. Jesus was saying those living in that season of the last days will by no means pass away because a season has a definate time period and doesnt go on forever. That season will come to an end...but not before"until all these things occur" all the things in the surrounding verses would happen before that season would finnish.

Thats all he was trying to say..nothing else.The CONTEXT is the last days and some the events that would take place. They would all happen within the 'season' known as the last days.

He wasnt putting a time period on it,he was saying that all the things meant for that season would happen AND within that period...ALL these things would occur within that period.

Again look at the context. There are SO MANY THINGS to happen in that period...and it might seem impossible for all of them to happen. This is why V34 is there,that those living in that period WOULD see ALL of these things happen including the book of Revelation. SO,the season of the last days would be packed with the events of the 'last days'...the events of that 'season'

He was saying V34 as a guarentee that those living in that season would see all the things mentioned WILL happen. We cant focus just on the 'generation' its about what they will see...and they wouldnt pass away till all these things occur.

Its not about how long they will live becuase a season is very short,its about the many events all happening within the season itself.The generation is not the important part,its what will happen within the period of the 'summer' and that it would all happen within that period...as hard as that might appear to be.

[Peter]

Jahsdisciple

I did rethink this after posting it because Jesus said ALL things and all things didn’t happen in the 1st century. I am still of the school of thought CT Russell and the Watchtowers 1995 teaching of a wicked composite Generation would at least fit in with the current wickedness of “This generation”- a combination of generations who overlap each of at a given time being are so far gone they can’t decipher right from wrong.

[shikinah]

yes Shikinah we must be close to these things as the signs Christ gave or definitley increasing. it would be a good reference point to move back in time to say 1980 and just look at the Changes that have occured in the world
i see futureman that does seem a reasonable assumption. it provides for people being old enough to act responsibly (20 years and over) and it allows for the average life span of the human being.
to allow those 20 year olds to be alive when the end comes.

so i might not see it


elihu

Funny enough I found the truth in 1981, as for generations there has NEVER been a generation like the 60's...:confused:

1. The birth control pill became widely available and abortion for cause was legalized in Colorado in 1967. In 1967, both abortion and artificial insemination became legal in some states.

2. The Presidential Commission of the Status of Womens(1963) presented disturbing facts about women's place in our society. Betty Friedan, Pauli Murray and Gloria Steinem, (National Organization for Women) questioned the unequal treatment of women, gave birth to womens lib.

3.The Civil Rights movement made great changes in society in the 1960's. The movement began peacefully, with Martin Luther King and Stokely Carmichael leading sit-ins and peaceful protests, joined by whites, particularly Jews. Malcolm X (http://www.cmgww.com/historic/malcolm/index.html) preached about Black Nationalism. After his assassination, the Black Panthers were formed to continue his mission.

4. The Supreme Court decided in Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421, 1962, that prayer in the public schools was unconstitutional. As the 1960's progressed, many young people turned from mainstream Protestant religions to mystic eastern religions such as Transcendental Meditation (Maharishi MaheshYogi) or Zen Buddhism.
Respect for authority declined among the youth, and crime rates soared to nine times the rate of the 1950's. Marijuanah use soared. Well known Harvard psychologist Timothy Leary encouraged the use of LSD as a mind-opening drug. The hippie movement endorsed drugs, rock music, mystic religions and sexual freedom. They opposed violence. The Woodstock Festivall at which 400,000 young people gathered in a spirit of love and sharing, represents the pinnacle of the hippie movement. Many hippies moved to Haight Ashbury in San Francisco, East Village in New York City, or lived in communes.

5. The draft was accelerated and anti-war sentiment grew in the US. College students organized anti-war protests, draft dodgers fled to Canada, and there were reports of soldiers reflected the growing disrespect for authority, shooting their officers rather than follow orders. Johnson, blamed by many for the war and the racial unrest in the country, did not run for reelection in 1968. John Kennedy's brother, Robert campaigned for the nomination for President and he, too was killed. Malcolm X was assassinated in 1965 and Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968.

7. In 1963, John Glenn was the first American to orbit the earth. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, in Apollo XI, were the first men to walk on the moon in 1969. The surgeon general determined that smoking was a health hazard, and in 1965 required cigarette manufacturers to place warnings on all packages and in all ads. The first clone of a vertebrate, a South African tree frog, was produced in 1967. Dr. Denton Cooley implanted the first artificial heart in a human, and it kept the patient alive for three days until a human heart could be transplanted. People became more concerned with their health and their environment. Rachel Carson's Silent Spring awakened the environmental movement and the Sierra Club gained a following. Ralph Nader's book, Unsafe at any Speed, led to the consumer movement.

8. In 1966, James S. Coleman commissioned by the government, published Equality of EducationalOpportunity, a landmark study that led the way to forced integration and bussing in the 1970s. During the sixties, college campuses became centers of debate and scenes of protest more than ever before. Great numbers (statistics) of young adults, baby boomers, reaching military draft age (selective service) and not yet voting age (minimum voting age did not become 18 until 1971), caused a struggle which played out on many campuses as the country became more involved (timeline) in the Vietnam War.

9. The 1960's began with crew cuts on men and bouffant hairstyles on women. Men's casual shirts were often plaid and buttoned down the front, while knee-length dresses were required wear for women in most public places. By mid-decade, miniskirts or hot pants, often worn with go-go boots, were revealing legs, bodywear was revealing curves.

10. Movies became more political, commenting on the arms race as in Dr. Strangelove. Sex became more explicit, and occasionally nontraditional, as in Midnight Cowboy, Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice, and The Graduate. Six James Bond Movies, including Dr. No, From Russia With Love, and Goldfinger, combined sex and violence were enormously popular. Previous taboos on sex, violence and language, were ignored, resulting in the need for a new film code by the MPAA. The supernatural and science fiction blended in many of the popular shows, including Bewitched, The Addams Family, My Favorite Martian , I Dream of Jeannie, Star Trek, the Outer Limits , and the TwilightZone. In the late 60's, humor was revived in a show called Rowan and Martin's Laugh In, where many regular performers and guests became part of a show biz classic.</SPAN>

It seems the 60's opened the doors to a new independent thinking, sexual immorality, female equality, introduction of the New Age belief system, mass abortion innocent blood sacrifice, preparing us for the changes we see today, satanic influence without a shadow of a doubt had taken a definate direction in accomplishing what we are seeing fulfilled today.


Shikinah

[Peter]

Shikinah I could not agree more. The 60s generation were known as the ‘Baby Boomer’. They threw out the old guard and the party was on. In actual fact the 1960 stared in the mid 50s with Mod’s, Rockers and longhaired beatniks in sandals. The baby boomers were well educated and had a lust for life and all it had to offer – in the words of Ian Jury – “Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll is all my brain and body need”. This was the generation who refused to grow-up. They past their attitudes onto their children who adopted PUNK and its rebellion, others became Thatcher’s children who had their own children believing the world owes them a living. Each generation has become greedier and more hedonistic than the previous generation and now they overlap each other as a wicked and composite ‘Generation’, what a melting pot.

Interestedly not only did the 1960s baby Boomers have spending power back in the 60s, there now spending the kid’s inheritance.

Pleasure! Pleasure! Pleasure! I Wont It all and I Wont Now!

[elihu]

Hi Shikinah and Peter

yes i can see what you are saying, there was a definite liberation of people and that freedom and selfish ambition is thriving today.
however i just wonder when Christ spoke of wars and rumours of wars did he mean that the generation would begin in that pre- kingdom against kingdom period of time, because he said in reference to that time " but the end is not yet"
so was he refering to the generation that would see nation against nation and all the thiongs that would occur due to that event.
my reasoning may be misaligned so help me out here i have always struggled with this prophecy.

And is the WTO correct in aligning the event of global war (nation against nation) with the fall of satan from heaven?
i do not mean 1914 but that specific event being an indication that he is out of heaven.?

elihu

[SlaveForJah]

How can the Watchtower teach that Jesus has been ruling since 1914, and yet at the same time say that the "generation" that would see the end is still here? As elihu has pointed out, the "end is not yet", and if the "end is not yet", then neither has the Millennium began, and neither has Christ been ruling since 1914. How can an event (the beginning of the Millennium) that occurs after "the end" happen 96 years before the very "end" that should be heralded by a now-inderterminate "generation"?

I mean, the whole issue becomes moot, and a past event if the 1000 year Reign has already begun. Generation ceases to mean anything if it is not a specific time marker. All throughout the 24th Chapter of Matthew Jesus explains that the term "generation" has a limited time. He equates it to a season. He also links the "generation" to seeing the "great tribulation". So, again, unless we all missed the "great tribulation", we have no time marker for identifying which "generation" will be the one to see "the end". And again, the Watchtower puts the cart before the horse.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[shikinah]

Shikinah I could not agree more. The 60s generation were known as the ‘Baby Boomer’. They threw out the old guard and the party was on. In actual fact the 1960 stared in the mid 50s with Mod’s, Rockers and longhaired beatniks in sandals. The baby boomers were well educated and had a lust for life and all it had to offer – in the words of Ian Jury – “Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll is all my brain and body need”. This was the generation who refused to grow-up. They past their attitudes onto their children who adopted PUNK and its rebellion, others became Thatcher’s children who had their own children believing the world owes them a living. Each generation has become greedier and more hedonistic than the previous generation and now they overlap each other as a wicked and composite ‘Generation’, what a melting pot.

Interestedly not only did the 1960s baby Boomers have spending power back in the 60s, there now spending the kid’s inheritance.

Pleasure! Pleasure! Pleasure! I Wont It all and I Wont Now!

Spending the kids inheritance lol sad but very true, "its live today for tomorrow we die attitude.