The Value of Christ's Sacrifice

[FutureMan]

Hello brothers and sisters, in view of the approaching memorial of Christ death and sacrifice and the New Covenant that he made with his apostles, I thought that it might be appropriate to discuss the value of Christ's sacrifice and what it should mean to us today.

(Hebrews 1) [LITV]
19 Therefore, brothers, having confidence for the entering of the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus,
20 which He consecrated for us, a new and living way through the veil; that is, His flesh;
21 and having a Great Priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts having been sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our body having been washed in pure water;
23 let us hold fast the confession of the hope unyielding, for He who has promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider one another, to incitement of love and of good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling together of ourselves, as is the custom of some, but exhorting, and by so much more as you see the Day drawing near.
26 For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and "zealous fire being about to consume the adversaries." Isa. 26:11
28 If anyone did not regard the Law of Moses, that one dies without pities on "the word of two or three witnesses." Deut. 17:6
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be thought worthy to receive, the one trampling the Son of God, and having counted common the blood of the covenant in which he was sanctified, and having insulted the
Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." Deut. 32:35, 36


Here we see where it is important for any who want to receive God's approval to value Christ's sacrifice and the covenant as extremely important.

And today for all Christians it should be.

This was why God had sent his only begotten son down to us, to provide an escape for our souls, from eternal destruction.

(John 17) {LITV]
1 Jesus spoke these things and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You,
2 as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life.
3 And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.


What is a result of those who have knowledge of God and his Son's (Christ's) sacrifice but do not have the proper respect and appreciation for his sacrifice?

26 For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and "zealous fire being about to consume the adversaries." Isa. 26:11
30 For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." Deut. 32:35, 36

So let us all show our appreciation and our value of Christ's sacrifice, by our word and our deeds so that we can show to our "Heavenly Father", that we truly do appreciate his sending his beloved son down to this earth to die for all mankind, so that we all could be saved from everlasting death.

(2 Peter 3) [LITV]
9 The Lord of the promise is not slow, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

[arimatthewdavies]

no sacrafice left for willful sin instead the fearful expectation of a firey judgement! all i can say is better pray that means execution by fire! not eternal confinement in it! the reward of eternal life is a blessed hope! i think what this scripture says is if your a willful siner your going to have to live with the fear of hell[real or imagined]in your head because their is no one left to save you if you refuse jesus.

[SWORDOFJAH]

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
The ransom is Jehovah’s means to deliver humankind from sin and death.—Ephesians 1:7.
Jehovah provided the ransom by sending his only-begotten Son to earth to die for us.—1 John 4:9, 10.
By means of the ransom, we gain the forgiveness of sins, a clean conscience, and the hope of everlasting life.—1 John 1:8, 9.
We show that we appreciate the ransom by getting to know more about Jehovah, by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and by attending the Lord’s Evening Meal.—John 3:16.

[FutureMan]

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
The ransom is Jehovah’s means to deliver humankind from sin and death.—Ephesians 1:7.
Jehovah provided the ransom by sending his only-begotten Son to earth to die for us.—1 John 4:9, 10.
By means of the ransom, we gain the forgiveness of sins, a clean conscience, and the hope of everlasting life.—1 John 1:8, 9.
We show that we appreciate the ransom by getting to know more about Jehovah, by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and by attending the Lord’s Evening Meal.—John 3:16.

Basically I agree with you on this comment you made SWORDOFJAH, except for one small alteration with your last sentence, if I may.

By exercising faith in Jesus and Jehovah's provision of the ransom's sacrifice we will have everlasting life, that is a guarantee to us.

Just as it states in (Romans 10) [LITV]

13 For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:32

Here it states that if you call on the name of the Lord, that you "will" be saved.

It is a guarantee to all of us who have faith in Jehovah God and his savior, Jesus Christ.

And faith is based on this guarantee.


Of course "faith is dead without works". the two go hand in hand.

So if we don't show works in conjunction with our faith, then we are not showing evidence that we do indeed have "faith".

[SWORDOFJAH]

So if we don't show works in conjunction with our faith, then we are not showing evidence that we do indeed have "faith".





[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I agree as JW'S do.

[FutureMan]

So if we don't show works in conjunction with our faith, then we are not showing evidence that we do indeed have "faith".





[/SIZE]

I agree as JW'S do.[/QUOTE]

Well that is true somewhat and keep in mind that I was associated with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses for over 40 years since I was a child and that from my perspective, Jehovah Witnesses seem to concentrate more on the works part, than they do faith.

But as the scriptures show that if a person does not show good works in relation to love of fellow man and the doing of God's will, such as the preaching work then that person is showing that they do not really have faith as they claim to have.

But Faith does come first and not the other way around.

No one can keep on in doing good works if they do not have true faith, unless they are forced to as a slave, of course.

For instance a member of the community who had committed a small crime, might be sentenced to so many hours of community service in behalf of the community that he lives in.
Most times these ones would do it begrudgingly unless of course they are repented.

Are many in the organization doing this as a "token service' or are they doing the preaching work out of "faith"?

[SWORDOFJAH]

I agree as JW'S do.

Well that is true somewhat and keep in mind that I was associated with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses for over 40 years since I was a child and that from my perspective, Jehovah Witnesses seem to concentrate more on the works part, than they do faith.

But as the scriptures show that if a person does not show good works in relation to love of fellow man and the doing of God's will, such as the preaching work then that person is showing that they do not really have faith as they claim to have.

But Faith does come first and not the other way around.

No one can keep on in doing good works if they do not have true faith, unless they are forced to as a slave, of course.

For instance a member of the community who had committed a small crime, might be sentenced to so many hours of community service in behalf of the community that he lives in.
Most times these ones would do it begrudgingly unless of course they are repented.

Are many in the organization doing this as a "token service' or are they doing the preaching work out of "faith"?

[/QUOTE]

Because of the faith we have on the coming new heaven and earth JW'S are reaching as many people as possible to come and serve Jehovah. We have faith in the coming promises my friend.

[FutureMan]

Because of the faith we have on the coming new heaven and earth JW'S are reaching as many people as possible to come and serve Jehovah. We have faith in the coming promises my friend.

Really SWORDOFJAH, it is not a matter of whether we as a collective have faith, but whether individually we have faith in God's promises and his messiah.

Christians are in union with Christ, but also individually stand before God as regards their faith.

When you say we, are you speaking in behalf of all Jehovah's Witnesses that have ever been baptized in association with the organization of which quite a few have left, that is if you look at the statistics of those who were baptized but have since either being disfellowshiped or left of their own accord.

How many more will leave in the future, you don't know.

So are you speaking in behalf of all of these ones?

And if you are not, and only speaking on behalf of only those who are active in the organization, can you read their hearts and understand their motivation, as of now?

Having asked this question, do you think that only Jehovah's Witnesses have this faith in what God promises and the ransom sacrifice?

Again I will ask you can you read all the individual Christians hearts and know their motivation, those who are not Jehovah witnesses?

Who is going to do the separating of the sheep and the goats, is it Jehovah's Witnesses or is it Christ himself that will be doing this?

[mrgalleria]

"Who is going to do the separating of the sheep and the goats...?"

Alo ha,
I like that question. I imagine a lot of Witnesses are proud that
they have a big jump ahead of everyone else on this.
After all, they already started.
Bill

[elihu]

Again I will ask you can you read all the individual Christians hearts and know their motivation, those who are not Jehovah witnesses?

Who is going to do the separating of the sheep and the goats, is it Jehovah's Witnesses or is it Christ himself that will be doing this?



That is a very good point, and i think it cuts to the heart of the issue of what an annointed Christian is

when Christ seperates the sheep and the Goats he does so on the basis of what they did for HIs Brothers.

so the question is are theones judged to be sheep also partakers of the NC before they are seperated from the goats?

or is the NC directly applicable to the brothers of the Lord of which whom all creation waits in expectation for their revealing?

elihu

[SWORDOFJAH]

Again I will ask you can you read all the individual Christians hearts and know their motivation, those who are not Jehovah witnesses?
No I can,JW'S teach the following: “For the Father has affection for the Son and .*.*. he has committed all the judging to the Son.”—JOHN 5:20,*22

Who is going to do the separating of the sheep and the goats, is it Jehovah's Witnesses or is it Christ himself that will be doing this?
JW'S teach the following: Matthew 25:31, 32 says: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

As you can see my friend JW'S are clear on these questions you asked. Till that day come . God’s people, both of the anointed and of the great crowd, know what they have to do now—preach and make disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 13:10)

Exactly what JW'S are doing.

[The Way]

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
The ransom is Jehovah’s means to deliver humankind from sin and death.—Ephesians 1:7.
Jehovah provided the ransom by sending his only-begotten Son to earth to die for us.—1 John 4:9, 10.
By means of the ransom, we gain the forgiveness of sins, a clean conscience, and the hope of everlasting life.—1 John 1:8, 9.
We show that we appreciate the ransom by getting to know more about Jehovah, by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and by attending the Lord’s Evening Meal.—John 3:16.

Hi SwordOfJah:

Would you mind clarifying a couple of points:
* WHEN exactly does one gain forgiveness of sins on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice?
* Why not just saying we have to exercise faith IN Jesus Christ, including but not just restricted to Jesus' ransom sacrifice alone! What is the proper object of one's faith: a person, Jesus Christ, or a 'sacrifice'? Do you see the nuance?

Thanks.
-----
Blessed is the One coming as King in Jehovah's name! -- Lu 19:38; see also Ps. 118:26; Mt 21:9; Mr 11:9; Jo 12:13

[elihu]

Again I will ask you can you read all the individual Christians hearts and know their motivation, those who are not Jehovah witnesses?
No I can,JW'S teach the following: “For the Father has affection for the Son and .*.*. he has committed all the judging to the Son.”—JOHN 5:20,*22

Who is going to do the separating of the sheep and the goats, is it Jehovah's Witnesses or is it Christ himself that will be doing this?
JW'S teach the following: Matthew 25:31, 32 says: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

As you can see my friend JW'S are clear on these questions you asked. Till that day come . God’s people, both of the anointed and of the great crowd, know what they have to do now—preach and make disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 13:10)

Exactly what JW'S are doing.


i find ambiguity in their teaching, in that they say that the Great crowd, who can only be the sheep spoken of at the seperation, are in fact baptised JWs
Christ clearly said that he will seperate people out of the nations at a specific time ,that being when he comes in glory
the way i understand it , and correct me if i am in error, the wto teaches that the seperation is an ongoing event caused by their preaching work, hence the GC are JWs. who get out of BTG

so i think if you asked an elder who the GC are made up of he would answer Jws
not sure if i am correct , but that was my impression.

elihu

[SWORDOFJAH]

[QUOTE=The Way;43449]Hi SwordOfJah:

Would you mind clarifying a couple of points:
* WHEN exactly does one gain forgiveness of sins on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice?
By means of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, we can receive “the forgiveness of our sins.” (Colossians 1:13,*14) To gain that forgiveness, however, we must be truly repentant. We must also humbly appeal to Jehovah, asking his forgiveness on the basis of our faith in the ransom sacrifice of his Son.—1*John 1:8,*9.

* Why not just saying we have to exercise faith IN Jesus Christ, including but not just restricted to Jesus' ransom sacrifice alone! What is the proper object of one's faith: a person, Jesus Christ, or a 'sacrifice'? Do you see the nuance?

Jesus offered his own life in behalf of mankind, thus making possible the forgiveness of sins. (Isaiah 53:11)

Today, peace with God and the forgiveness of sins can be attained on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. But such blessings are not automatic. (Colossians 1:21-23) Those who want them must learn to obey Jehovah God. (1*Peter 3:11 please compare Hebrews 5:8,*9.)
-----

[SWORDOFJAH]

i find ambiguity in their teaching, in that they say that the Great crowd, who can only be the sheep spoken of at the seperation, are in fact baptised JWs
Christ clearly said that he will seperate people out of the nations at a specific time ,that being when he comes in glory
the way i understand it , and correct me if i am in error, the wto teaches that the seperation is an ongoing event caused by their preaching work, hence the GC are JWs. who get out of BTG

so i think if you asked an elder who the GC are made up of he would answer Jws
not sure if i am correct , but that was my impression.

elihu

*** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***

Questions From Readers

We were thrilled with our study of Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats. In view of the new understanding presented in “The Watchtower” of October 15, 1995, can we still say that Jehovah’s Witnesses today are sharing in a separating work?

Yes. Understandably, many have wondered about this because Matthew 25:31, 32 says: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins. Jesus will arrive in his glory with his angels and will sit on his judgment throne. Then, he will separate people. In what sense? He will render decisions based on what people did or did not do before that time.

We can compare this to the development of a legal process leading up to a court case. The evidence builds up over an extended period before the court rules and hands down a sentence. The evidence as to whether people now alive will turn out to be sheep or goats has been accumulating for a long time. And it is still coming in. But when Jesus sits on his throne, the case will be complete. He will be ready to render judgment. People will be separated either to everlasting cutting-off or to everlasting life.

However, the fact that the separation of people to life or to death mentioned at Matthew 25:32 is yet future does not mean that no separating, or dividing, occurs before that. The Bible, in Matthew chapter 13, mentions one separation work that occurs earlier. Interestingly, the book United in Worship of the Only True God, pages*179-80, treats this under the heading “Separating of People”. The book says: “There are also other significant events that Jesus prominently associated with the conclusion of the system of things. One of these is the separation of the ‘sons of the kingdom’ from the ‘sons of the wicked one.’ Jesus spoke of this in his parable about a wheat field that an enemy oversowed with weeds.”

The book was referring to Jesus’ illustration set out at Matthew 13:24-30 and explained in verses 36-43. Note in verse 38 that the fine seeds of wheat represent the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds stand for the sons of the wicked one. Verses 39 and 40 show that in the ‘conclusion of the system of things’—during the time in which we now live—the weeds are collected. They are separated out and finally burned, destroyed.

The illustration deals with anointed Christians (who in the parable of the sheep and the goats are called Jesus’ brothers). Still, the point is clear that a vital separation does occur during our time, with the anointed being distinguished from those who profess to be Christians but who prove themselves to be “sons of the wicked one.”

Jesus provided other examples of people being divided, or separated. Recall that he said concerning the broad road that leads to destruction: “Many are the ones going in through it.” (Matthew 7:13) That was not a comment just about the final outcome. It was a comment about an ongoing development, just as is true now of the few finding the cramped road leading off into life. Recall, too, that when sending out the apostles, Jesus said that they would find some who would be deserving. Others would not be deserving, and the apostles were to shake the dust off their feet “for a witness against” such people. (Luke 9:5) Is it not true that something similar happens as Christians carry on their public ministry today? Some respond well, whereas others reject the divine message that we are bringing.

The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: “While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place. We Christians are engaged in a lifesaving work of proclaiming a message that causes a division among people. (Matthew 10:32-39).” In that passage in Matthew chapter 10, we read that Jesus said that following him would be a cause for division—father against son, daughter against mother.

Finally, Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers have spearheaded the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom message. As people hear it and react favorably or unfavorably, they are identifying themselves. We humans cannot, and we should not, say, ‘This person is a sheep; that one a goat,’ in the sense conveyed in Matthew chapter 25. Still, our exposing people to the good news allows them to show where they stand—what they are and how they react to Jesus’ brothers. Hence, like mounting evidence for a court case, the division between those who support Jesus’ brothers and those who refuse to support them is becoming evident. (Malachi 3:18) As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off.

[elihu]

Who are the brothers of Christ?

"for whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many bretheren
moreover whom he predestined these he also called; whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified these he also glorified"

so somehow there is a distinct difference between those who are brothers of Christ or as Christ is, Sons of God and the sheep that are seperated from the goats.
the brothers are conformed to the likeness of Christ does scripture indicate that the other sheep are also conformed to the likeness of Christ?

so are the WTO correct in teaching that the body and blood of Christ as symbolised by the bread and wine is only for the brothers of Christ?
or are the other sheep also to partake?

the other sheep i.e the great crowd are said to wash their robes white in the blood of the lamb.
so are they also Purchased along with those who are brothers of Christ?

i really do not know , i can see why some would say only the brothers of Christ and others would say everyone who believes in HIm.

so can we be christians without partaking ? i would say no we cannot
the question then needs to be asked what is a Christian?

[The Way]

[QUOTE=The Way;43449]Hi SwordOfJah:

Would you mind clarifying a couple of points:
* WHEN exactly does one gain forgiveness of sins on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice?
By means of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, we can receive “the forgiveness of our sins.” (Colossians 1:13,*14) To gain that forgiveness, however, we must be truly repentant. We must also humbly appeal to Jehovah, asking his forgiveness on the basis of our faith in the ransom sacrifice of his Son.—1*John 1:8,*9.

* Why not just saying we have to exercise faith IN Jesus Christ, including but not just restricted to Jesus' ransom sacrifice alone! What is the proper object of one's faith: a person, Jesus Christ, or a 'sacrifice'? Do you see the nuance?

Jesus offered his own life in behalf of mankind, thus making possible the forgiveness of sins. (Isaiah 53:11)

Today, peace with God and the forgiveness of sins can be attained on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ. But such blessings are not automatic. (Colossians 1:21-23) Those who want them must learn to obey Jehovah God. (1*Peter 3:11 please compare Hebrews 5:8,*9.)
-----

Thanks for your reply. Great scriptures to consider and medidate upon.

* So we can receive forgiveness, but we have to make a request for forgiveness, and then we can attain forgiveness. Still this doesn't answer my question: WHEN does a person who does all this effectively RECEIVE forgiveness of sins. In this possible in the present or is this still future?

* Alright, then I'll prefer to use the expression "faith IN Jesus Christ" from now on. It encompasses everything, doesn't it? Of course it must be a living faith, which will be inevitably be shown in our thoughts, words and actions, in our whole life. Otherwise we don't really have true faith in the first place. And true faith in Jesus Christ is impossible without the true faith in his Father, Jehovah God. The one who has the Son (in the right manner) also has the Father; the one who doesn't have the Son, can't have the Father either (2 John 9).

Regards, The Way
-----
Make the way of Jehovah straight! -- Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3; Mr 1:3; Lu 3:4; Jo 1:23

[SWORDOFJAH]

[QUOTE=The Way;43458][QUOTE=SWORDOFJAH;43454]

Thanks for your reply. Great scriptures to consider and medidate upon.

: WHEN does a person who does all this effectively RECEIVE forgiveness of sins. In this possible in the present or is this still future?

Right now my friend. Zechariah, father of John the Baptizer, prophesied that God was about to “give knowledge of salvation to his people,” not by freeing them from an enemy nation but “by forgiveness of their sins.”—Luke 1:77.The completeness of God’s forgiveness is further explained at Acts 3:19: “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out.”

[truthseeker]

Who are the brothers of Christ?

"for whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many bretheren
moreover whom he predestined these he also called; whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified these he also glorified"

so somehow there is a distinct difference between those who are brothers of Christ or as Christ is, Sons of God and the sheep that are seperated from the goats.
the brothers are conformed to the likeness of Christ does scripture indicate that the other sheep are also conformed to the likeness of Christ?

so are the WTO correct in teaching that the body and blood of Christ as symbolised by the bread and wine is only for the brothers of Christ?
or are the other sheep also to partake?

the other sheep i.e the great crowd are said to wash their robes white in the blood of the lamb.
so are they also Purchased along with those who are brothers of Christ?

i really do not know , i can see why some would say only the brothers of Christ and others would say everyone who believes in HIm.

so can we be christians without partaking ? i would say no we cannot
the question then needs to be asked what is a Christian?







Hay Elihu
For thirty years of my adult life this the one question that has always perplexed me.
The anointed are held to a very high standard in conduct and spiritual purity (be holy like I am holy) right! Now are the sheep to be separated held to the same standards or is it simply there attitude they display towards Jesus brothers i.e supporting protecting recognizing they have been sealed and then follow there lead. I would imagine the sheep will need to be some what scripturally informed in order to recognize the real deal when they see them!! They would also need to be looking for evidence based on previous spiritual knowledge and training. But the question is have they sheep been living a life free from gross sin or "ignorant" participation in pagan practices??

[truthseeker]

[QUOTE=SWORDOFJAH;43454]

Thanks for your reply. Great scriptures to consider and medidate upon.

* So we can receive forgiveness, but we have to make a request for forgiveness, and then we can attain forgiveness. Still this doesn't answer my question: WHEN does a person who does all this effectively RECEIVE forgiveness of sins. In this possible in the present or is this still future?

* Alright, then I'll prefer to use the expression "faith IN Jesus Christ" from now on. It encompasses everything, doesn't it? Of course it must be a living faith, which will be inevitably be shown in our thoughts, words and actions, in our whole life. Otherwise we don't really have true faith in the first place. And true faith in Jesus Christ is impossible without the true faith in his Father, Jehovah God. The one who has the Son (in the right manner) also has the Father; the one who doesn't have the Son, can't have the Father either (2 John 9).

Regards, The Way
-----
Make the way of Jehovah straight! -- Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3; Mr 1:3; Lu 3:4; Jo 1:23

Ahh but the real question is once a person receives forgiveness. Can that person lose out on the forgiveness granted by God due to a change of hart on the individual’s part????
Remember this fact; once saved always saved is not in the program!!!!!
Not until the point of death for Jesus anointed brothers are they sealed with complete forgiveness and rewarded with immortality.
And for the earthly class after Jesus gives the throne back to his father ending his one thousand year kingship, then this earthly class is given everlasting life after the final test!!!
So forgiveness is very much a relative concept.:cool:

[elihu]

Hay Elihu
For thirty years of my adult life this the one question that has always perplexed me.
The anointed are held to a very high standard in conduct and spiritual purity (be holy like I am holy) right! Now are the sheep to be separated held to the same standards or is it simply there attitude they display towards Jesus brothers i.e supporting protecting recognizing they have been sealed and then follow there lead. I would imagine the sheep will need to be some what scripturally informed in order to recognize the real deal when they see them!! They would also need to be looking for evidence based on previous spiritual knowledge and training. But the question is have they sheep been living a life free from gross sin or "ignorant" participation in pagan practices??


Hi truthseeker

yes it is a headache for myself, i have always tended toward the WT teaching and i can see why they believe what they say in scripture.
But, and its a big but, how can a person know Christ and have their sins forgiven unless they have the ransom applied to them, and pay recognition to the ransom by participating?.

so i find myself in a state of mind which on one hand says to participate and that all believers should do so because Christ is their ransom, but on the other hand i recognise the brothers as being special to Christ and to Jehovah( brothers and sons )

and i have to say some things that Futureman has posted recently are powerful points from scripture that indicate that all those who believe in Christ should participate.

however until i feel absolutley sure and feel in myself worthy to participate then i cannot do so, but i believe that if anyone feels within themselves that it is their duty to participate then they should do so.
and if those who participate judge me as being a none believer or an apostate because i choose not to participate then let it be so, however they should be aware that i do not judge them as being unworthy to participate.

elihu

[uglyandthin]

Hi All:

Isn't it an important question to ask, why is salvation dependant on how someone treats Christ's brothers? I thought salvation was dependant on Faith in Jesus as the ransom. What is the distinction here?

uglyandthin

[truthseeker]

Hi All:

Isn't it an important question to ask, why is salvation dependant on how someone treats Christ's brothers? I thought salvation was dependant on Faith in Jesus as the ransom. What is the distinction here?

uglyandthin

Oh great thanks- UglyandThin; throw a monkey wrench into the mix!!!
LOL:p

[truthseeker]

Hi truthseeker

yes it is a headache for myself, i have always tended toward the WT teaching and i can see why they believe what they say in scripture.
But, and its a big but, how can a person know Christ and have their sins forgiven unless they have the ransom applied to them, and pay recognition to the ransom by participating?.

so i find myself in a state of mind which on one hand says to participate and that all believers should do so because Christ is their ransom, but on the other hand i recognise the brothers as being special to Christ and to Jehovah( brothers and sons )

and i have to say some things that Futureman has posted recently are powerful points from scripture that indicate that all those who believe in Christ should participate.

however until i feel absolutley sure and feel in myself worthy to participate then i cannot do so, but i believe that if anyone feels within themselves that it is their duty to participate then they should do so.
and if those who participate judge me as being a none believer or an apostate because i choose not to participate then let it be so, however they should be aware that i do not judge them as being unworthy to participate.

elihu

For me before going head first into something this important, I would be very certain I was completly willing to be anyone’s bride for an eternity. Personally I jumped the gun with my baptism at 13 years old;:eek: I had no clue what I was doing!
truthseeker

[SWORDOFJAH]

[QUOTE=The Way;43458]

Ahh but the real question is once a person receives forgiveness. Can that person lose out on the forgiveness granted by God due to a change of hart on the individual’s part????
Remember this fact; once saved always saved is not in the program!!!!!
Not until the point of death for Jesus anointed brothers are they sealed with complete forgiveness and rewarded with immortality.
And for the earthly class after Jesus gives the throne back to his father ending his one thousand year kingship, then this earthly class is given everlasting life after the final test!!!
So forgiveness is very much a relative concept.:cool:

Forgiveness is possible now. Everyday we struggle to do Jehovah's will.So everyday we need forgiveness from Jehovah. With Jehovah there is nothing relative. He is the God of truth.

[truthseeker]

[QUOTE=truthseeker;43461]

Forgiveness is possible now. Everyday we struggle to do Jehovah's will.So everyday we need forgiveness from Jehovah. With Jehovah there is nothing relative. He is the God of truth.

Absolutly I agree!

[elihu]

For me before going head first into something this important, I would be very certain I was completly willing to be anyone’s bride for an eternity. Personally I jumped the gun with my baptism at 13 years old;:eek: I had no clue what I was doing!
truthseeker

yes truthseeker that is how i have felt for several years and the terrible thing is i cannot identify the cause
wether it is because i am failing to commit to following Christ in the way he wants us to or it is because doing so is not something a person decides by themselves , but they are also called by Jehovah to do so.
i am so pleased there is someone else out there who has similar thougts on this.

Hi uglyandthin


Hi All:

Isn't it an important question to ask, why is salvation dependant on how someone treats Christ's brothers? I thought salvation was dependant on Faith in Jesus as the ransom. What is the distinction here?

uglyandthin
<LI id=post_43462 class="postbit blockrow">8 Hours Ago 10:45 PM

<LI id=post_43462 class="postbit blockrow">
that is a good question. one i think we should all give some consideration to


elihu

[elihu]

Forgiveness is possible now. Everyday we struggle to do Jehovah's will.So everyday we need forgiveness from Jehovah. With Jehovah there is nothing relative. He is the God of truth.


while what you have said is so true SwordofJah, that the ransom is an ongoing atonement for forgiveness for sins. it seems that under certain circumstances with regard to those of the heavenly calling who have recieved the holy spirit who FALL AWAY then there is no forgiveness.

" for it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the holy spirit, and have tasted the GOOD WORD OF GOD and the POWER OF THE AGES TO COME if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son Of God, and put Him to an open shame"

heb 6:4-6


so are those of the heavenly calling the only ones that can suffer this end or is this applicable to those who partake of the body of Christ.
and what is the difference between those who partake who are of the heavenly calling and those who are of the earthly one.

do the heavenly ones have an enlightenment that the earthly ones do not have, do both groups become partakers of the Holy spirit? if as some say, both should be partakers of the emblems.

i find it difficult to disect this into two groups to me it is talking about a special group.

elihu

[Utuna]

Again I will ask you can you read all the individual Christians hearts and know their motivation, those who are not Jehovah witnesses?
No I can,JW'S teach the following: “For the Father has affection for the Son and .*.*. he has committed all the judging to the Son.”—JOHN 5:20,*22

Who is going to do the separating of the sheep and the goats, is it Jehovah's Witnesses or is it Christ himself that will be doing this?
JW'S teach the following: Matthew 25:31, 32 says: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

As you can see my friend JW'S are clear on these questions you asked. Till that day come . God’s people, both of the anointed and of the great crowd, know what they have to do now—preach and make disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 13:10)

Exactly what JW'S are doing.

Dear SOJ,

I'm glad to see you back here with us !

I have a question for you regarding the last sentence of your post :

Can we boil down Christianism to the preaching work only ? (Ja2:14-17)

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Molly]

Hi All:

Isn't it an important question to ask, why is salvation dependant on how someone treats Christ's brothers? I thought salvation was dependant on Faith in Jesus as the ransom. What is the distinction here?

uglyandthin

Hi U&T-

Salvation isn't actually dependant on faith in Jesus as the ransom. It is based on faithfulness to the commandments of Christ. He who does the will of the Father as taught by Christ is the one that will receive salvation, and that means paying attention to Christ's teachings, but of course, one would have to have faith in Jesus to bother doing it. Christ very clearly told the rich young ruler that if he kept the commandments, that is the Ten Commandments, that he would get life. Jesus said at Matthew 5:17-19, "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I came not to destroy but to fulfill; 18 for truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called 'least' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called 'great' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens." The point here is that neither the Law nor the Prophets were destroyed by Jesus, so the one teaching that they were will be condemned by Christ. The Law simply did not pass away with his death. Any argument that they did is simply calling Christ a liar.

What is required is that we repent if we have sinned, which doesn't mean just saying we're sorry, but as the footnote (Matt.3:2) in the Emphatic Diaglott says: "The word 'repent' does not express the force of the original: which signifies a change of character, a permanent alteration of the disposition and habits." As a result, the Diaglott uses the word "reform" instead of repent.

As we know, there is much objection to listening to Christ's words, although many give lip service to it. Most ignore the fact that he repeatedly told his followers to obey the Ten Commandments. Do they think that he was just kidding? We can see just from reactions to promoting the Ten Commandments here on this forum that there is much opposition. Therefore with regard to your question about caring for the needs of Christ's sheep during the tribulation, it will mean that the one that assists the sheep is placing himself in the same position as the sheep. The sheep will be hated for their beliefs and so will any who attempt to assist them. They will essentially be condemning themselves from man's standpoint, but saving themselves from Christ's. "Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." (Matt.25:40) They may actually be placing their life on the line to help Christ's brothers, which brings to mind Matt. 10:39. "He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it." They will have to be capable of truly loving their fellow man by being willing to die for their sakes. That will certainly require faith in Christ's message.

As a youngster, I was raised as a Lutheran (Missouri Synod). From Luther's Catechism we were taught to obey the Ten Commandments, so I come from that position early on and have never seen the need to alter that position, even when I was a Witness. Jesus clearly stated that following the commandments was essential to getting life. If we sin, then we must confess our sin and reform our conduct to be considered as righteous. Read Ezekial 18. Nothing has changed.

Molly

[SWORDOFJAH]

Can we boil down Christianism to the preaching work only ? (Ja2:14-17)

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Good morning. Can you elaborate more on your comment??? Thanks.

[Utuna]

Can we boil down Christianism to the preaching work only ? (Ja2:14-17)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good morning. Can you elaborate more on your comment??? Thanks.

Dear SOJ,

Futureman said : "So if we don't show works in conjunction with our faith, then we are not showing evidence that we do indeed have "faith".

You replied : "I agree as JWs do".

You were talking about works of faith. So I was wondering if the works of faith were the preaching work only.

Said otherwise, what is the value of our works of faith before God's eyes if said works are the preaching work only ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[elihu]

Yes Molly i can see your view point.

David and Solomon and ALL the people who followed the ten commandments sinned and prayed to jehovah to forgive them and also were atoned for on a group basis via the sprinkling of blood by the high priest, that atonement gave them forgiveness of sin, but not everlasting life.

" Lord what must i do to inherit eternal life" the young man asked
" keep the commandments" replied Jesus
" which ones" the young man
jesus told him the main ones

" all these i have kept since i was a boy" said the young rich man

the bigger sacrifice for treasure in heaven was what the young rich man could not grasp.

"one thing you still lack, sell all of your possessions give the money to the poor and COME BE MY FOLLOWER and you will have treasure in heaven"

i think that is what a christian is, a follower of Christ who will have treasure in heaven.
but i have been scolded by some for saying such things (other dbs) hope it does not offend anyone here

elihu

[elihu]

a few scriptures whereby those who are being spoken about are done so in the sense that heaven is where they are hoping to go

"for our citizenship is in heaven. from which we also eagarly await for Saviour The Lord Jesus Christ
who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things to himself"

philippians 3:20,21


" even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

eph 2:5,6


2 corinthians 5 1,2

"for we know that if our earthly house, this tent is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"
"for in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven"


so is it the case that those who feel that their home is earth should partake along with those who feel that their home is heaven?

or is the case that all should partake because they believe in Christ and all should therefore set their minds on heavenly things and so be striving for the heavenly home?

elihu

[SWORDOFJAH]

You were talking about works of faith. So I was wondering if the works of faith were the preaching work only.

Said otherwise, what is the value of our works of faith before God's eyes if said works are the preaching work only ?

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Works of faith include more than the preaching work. Preaching the good news is a key work of faith. But there is more. Example,Noah, who lived through the execution of Jehovah’s judgment on the ungodly world, was “a preacher of righteousness.” (2*Pet. 2:5) He exerted himself in doing works of faith, constructing “an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world.” (Heb. 11:7) Another example is Rahab’s. Her faith moved her to action. She received the Israelite spies “in a peaceable way,” and she obeyed their life-saving instructions when Israel attacked Jericho. (Hebrews 11:31; Joshua 2:18-21) There is no doubt that Rahab’s works of faith brought joy to Jehovah’s heart, for he inspired the Christian disciple James to place her name alongside that of Abraham, God’s friend, as an example for Christians to imitate.

Concerning the preaching work as a work of faith take, for example, the requirement to share in the Kingdom-preaching work. “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness,” wrote Paul, “but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” (Rom. 10:10)