Original Greek Meaning of the Word "Generation"

[Jahsdisciple]

Matt24:34...This Generation will by no means pass away.

This expression has been talked about a lot so I decided to look at the “Interlinear Bible” and the Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionary in the hope that I might get a better understanding of this sentence...and especially the word “GENERATION”

What was revealed is simply a revelation !

Here is how it reads in the Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.”

What was Jesus trying to convey here ? To get the point we have to look at the context and the meaning of the word 'generation' The root meaning of generation : Word number 1074..by implication..an AGE.

So what is an “AGE” ? “ Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature; EG"we live in a litigious age"

There are 2 parts to this.
1/ As this AGE,Its an historic period or ERA
2/ that it would be marked as such as “having some distinctive features”

The historic period or Age or Era had some distinctive features that made it possible to KNOW its was that Historic period mentioned by Jesus.

So,an AGE or ERA can be marked by certain features. Jesus was saying that the Great tribulation is an AGE or ERA of history marked by certain events. THE CONTEXT shows that Jesus is talking about the events of the AGE or ERA of history known as the last days. Verse 34 is surrounded by those events,that as the definition above explains, is marked by some distinctive feature(s).

This is most certainly the case with the Last Days. ALL the things mentioned surrounding V34 are clear indicators that those living at the time were IN / experiencing the Last Days.

Whats so special about this comment by Jesus, is that he was saying that all the features that would make up that AGE, would not only identify it as that time...but also ALL the events would happen. Thats what V34,35 are saying.

V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.”

Jesus was trying to convey that the AGE or ERA of his presence would be marked by certain events. Then to make a point about how ALL the events mentioned (plus the ones to be mentioned later in Revelation) will come true,he says : ALL the “distinctive features that mark the Generation,AGE ,ERA of history to be such... will happen. PLUS,to then back this thought up,says,”the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away”

ALL the events that would make it “ an era of history having some distinctive feature “ would all happen. Without them ALL happening,how can we say that it is a “ an age / era of history having some distinctive feature” ? We cant ! So in order for this to be true,ALL the events Jesus mentions would have to happen.

It cant very well be an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..if some of the features were missing...then it wouldn't be that “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..which is why Jesus then says what he did in V35. ALL of my words will come true !

If Jesus wanted the expression “generation” to have another meaning,he would have emphasized it with V35. In V35 He was doubly making a point because there was so much to happen in this period of time. Especially when we consider Revelation was yet to be given.

Was Jesus using the word generation / AGE / ERA as some part of a calculation intended for some future use ? Was he even hinting as to second meaning of the word 'generation” ? NO. He didnt even use a word with any ambiguity. He was saying that the period with all the signs was an historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..

It was a special AGE / ERA with special features which are mentioned in the surrounding verses of Matthew 24.. The signs proved the AGE / ERA was special..Historic..and the AGE that Jesus had spoken about was upon those living at that time because they could refer to all the special features happening around them.

Emphasizing a point.

In the bible verse numbers are put there to help us find a spot in scripture. These 2 verses,34,35 are ONE point Jesus is making.

In the first part of his sentence starting V34 he is saying that the Age or Era would be significant...because he uses a word that means that. He is saying its filled with Historical events that mark it as such. The context also proves this AND that the Age or Era would not pass away till all the things He is speaking about that mark it as such happen.

THEN to back-up this thought, He adds a guarantee in V35. That heaven and earth would pass away before any of his words don't come true about the just mentioned : “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”

What point was he trying to make ? Its clear !

He wasn't emphasizing anything except what the historic period would contain....” distinctive features” and that all of them would happen as he said they would...THUS marking it as an “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”

Another scriptural example of the term generation being used.

Often to understand the meaning of a word,we can go to other examples of the very same word being used in another setting by the same person. This way it becomes clear what its true meaning is. Another use clarifies its intention and why someone like Jesus would use it.

Matt 12:39 “A wicked and adulterous generation,keeps on seeking for a sign”

What was Jesus saying here ? That the people in general from this AGE or ERA of history were wicked and adulterous in their attitude. And in using the term 'generation' he was saying that it was an AGE, “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature” and that “distinctive feature” was their wicked and adulterous attitude in wanting more signs without appreciating that the ones they had already seen were telling them who Jesus truly was.

HE DID NOT MEAN ,that the generation of that time would live for 70,40,20 years and prove they were adulterous. No ! He meant that the people of that AGE or ERA ..those living at THAT time...were marked by a“distinctive feature”... that is:being wicked and adulterous.

The generation was any and all who were alive during the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry...which means the word “generation” is NOT age specific..it has nothing to do with anyones age. This supports the Greek meaning which is talking about an historic time period.

THOSE LIVING AT THAT TIME no matter what their age...because they were witnessing the miracles of Jesus and missing the point were wicked and adulterous . Their generation..Historic AGE..ERA was marked by this one distinctive feature. And, its very interesting that Jesus miracles were in a very Historic period of 3.5 years.

The generation, historic AGE / ERA he was speaking about in relation to being wicked and adulterous, were those in the period of 3.5 years...thats the period the miracles were happening.

So,that Historic AGE / ERA of history covered the time period the miracles happened...3.5 years.

In using this term “generation”..which also means AGE or ERA of history...,he wasn't asking his readers or listeners to start guessing how long that wicked and adulterous generation,Historic AGE or ERA were going to live. OR that it had started at some mathematically calculated time/starting point. Those of that AGE / ERA were of any number of years ..20-100 years . THAT ISNT THE POINT !

In saying this “generation”,he was saying :

“A wicked and adulterous generation,always seeking signs”

“A wicked and adulterous (historic) AGE,always seeking signs”

“A wicked and adulterous ( historic ) ERA,always seeking signs”

These 3 expressions are the same thing because thats what the word generation means,implies...Thats its meaning !

He DIDNT say that you had to be of a certain age to be part of the “ wicked and adulterous generation “ If you had the distinctive feature of being wicked and adulterous you were part of that historic Age or Era marked by the feature of being a wicked and adulterous generation.

Your age had nothing to do with it !

In using the word he used,Jesus showed it was an attitude that marked you..NOT YOUR AGE !

In using this example of the same word being used in a different context,we clearly understand what Jesus was getting at. Using a Greek dictionary also helps us to let go of a single meaning that is an ENGLISH understanding of the word Generation ,when we need to see Jesus was saying something totally different by looking at what the Greek word is and its meaning.

Context and the same word being used in another setting is proof of this.

In both cases,He was talking about: An historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature.
A generation / AGE / ERA of history having some distinctive feature.

This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of people of a certain age.

Matt 24:34

This understanding now allows us to see what the verse...what Jesus is getting at.

Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.”

...in no way will this historic AGE pass away until all these things have occurred.”

...in no way will this historic ERA pass away until all these things have occurred.”

The very things that made this period unique by its many “distinctive features”, would all come true because its those features that make it unique.

Jesus was in the middle of describing so many unique things that would mark the “Lords Day” All the signs/events made it an “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features” And this would include most things mentioned in Revelation.

ALL these combined make up the total of Jesus presence. V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.” ALL of those words would come true ! ALL of the features would happen !

All together,those signs /events make that generation..”Historic AGE..ERA of history having some distinctive feature”

NO OTHER time period in History will be marked by such “distinctive features”..because no other period with all the “distinctive features” would tell us we are living in the last days...that Jesus would be ruling in heaven as King of the Kingdom.

What could be a more unique generation,historic age,era of history having some “distinctive features”... than those living in those days,signaling that Jesus is now the enthroned King ? NONE !

This is why 34 and 35 are important in connection with this special time.

All those of any age living in that historic AGE / ERA would know by the things surrounding them that they are in the last days..AND also that the Generation / AGE / ERA of the last days would come to a completion by all the signs/events happening in their total. That the new world would come after that. ALL of Jesus words would be fulfilled including the END of this generation,historic AGE / ERA of the Last Days. This is of great comfort to those living in that time. If we were living in such a time,we would be happy when its over...since, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. Thats not how it is today. But if we found ourselves in such a time,Jesus words telling us that the Great Tribulation was going to have a definite end,that it would be short,helps us to endure.

You wouldnt have to concern yourself about your age and how long you were going to live. If you were alive in that AGE / ERA,you could be certain that it was going to be short: Jesus said “Unless those days were cut short”

Jesus Likened this period to a season. No-one wonders if many that saw the start of the season summer, were going to die because of it extended nature. A season is short. Very few people die in Summer because of its duration compared to those that live to see the end of it.

When you see the signs of summer,you know you are in the season of summer,because summer doesn't start on one particular day. All the things that happen in summer happen...and then summer finishes. It passes. BUT you can be sure that everything that has to happen in summer WILL happen because thats what happens in Summer. Matt 24:32

And this is exactly what Jesus is saying about the Last Days. He is describing an historic AGE or ERA that once you saw the events,you would know you were in it. The events tell you so. Its like a season and you don't wonder if its going to be a long drawn out period. ITS SHORT.

It only gets complicated when we use the word 'generation' in the ENGLISH sense...and this isn't the word Jesus had in mind..OR EVEN USED ! Researching the meaning shows a totally different idea. The same word used by Jesus in Matt 12:39 proves what the word means and what Jesus intended to say.

The ENGLISH meaning of generation is NOT the same as the Greek...and not the word Jesus was using.

Its NOT a life span..its an Historic AGE or ERA of history having some distinctive features”..and its short.

Those living in that time are witnessing the generation / AGE / ERA of history ,no matter their age...and all the things Jesus said would happen in that short period of time would ALL happen because thats what makes it an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features”

This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of a certain age.

This Generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History...will by no means pass away...

So now that we know that Jesus was talking about an Historic AGE or ERA,this expression “Generation” means something else. Its NOT talking about a group of people born at a certain time, OR that a certain group has to be a certain age as a adult...that they might be 70,40,20 years old..etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,to infitar'dum tedi'ardus (infinity of tedium)

It has nothing to do with people of any particular age. Jesus was talking about the Historic AGE / ERA itself MARKED by certain features..and that Historic AGE / ERA of history would not pass away till all the things He said would happen in it,were completed.

We cant say a person of a certain age has earthquakes..or is standing in a holy place..or that one person because of their age is like the days of Noah. No!..these are the events of the generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History that tells us that we are living in the last days. We can say... an Historic AGE / ERA in history has earthquakes,that someone would stand in a holy place during that time,or that time is like the days of Noah.

No person or persons can have those signs upon them. So we see that its the signs / events that ARE the Historic AGE / ERA.. Its NOT about those of any living age...or having been born at some particular time,so they would be of a certain age when Jesus began ruling and saw the start of the signs of the last days..

ITS THE EVENTS within an historic period THAT ARE THE GENERATION / HISTORIC AGE / ERA..not the people living at that time who are of a certain living age.

The signs / events are the HISTORIC AGE / ERA /generation . They are one and the same thing because of it being an: “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features.”

The Historic Period is marked by distinctive features...the distinctive features mark the Historic Period.

Jesus was saying:
“That generation / Historic Age / Era of History would not pass away till all the things that I have said would be included in it,that make it significant and an Historic AGE..WILL happen. When all these things have taken place,it is over. When you are alive in this time,you will know you are living in this special Historic AGE or ERA because you see all the things I have spoken...so you will know I'm in Heaven ruling as King. As Jehovah's appointed King,I will bring an end to this Historic AGE / ERA..so take comfort,it will be “cut short”

Heaven and earth will pass away before any of my words fail...this is my guarantee to you that all my words,including your deliverance,WILL COME TRUE “

[FutureMan]

Well done Jahsdisciple, in your research on the "generation" issue.

There is much food for thought there.

[Tsaphah]

Very good information Jahsdisciple. But, I don't agree with all you have presented. Most of what you conclude, I agree with. But there is more to be considered. I have bolded areas that deal with some of what you have already discussed. It ties in with what you say about "generation."

To be fair about the use of the Greek, genea, we should look at other scriptures where the word is used, and not just this scripture in Matthew 24. This word was a common term used by the Greek speaking people of “genea=the day”, so to speak.
The following is from W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

2. GENEA (Greek letters/geneá) connected with ginomai, to become, primarily
signifies a begetting, or birth ; then that which has been begotten, a family ; or successive members of a genealogy, Matt. 1:17, or of a race of people, possessed of similar characteristics, pursuits, etc., (of a bad character) Matt. 17:17 ; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; 16:8; Acts 2:40; or of the whole multitude of men living at the same time, Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48; 21:32; Phil. 2:15, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period, Matt. 11:16, etc. Transferred from people to the time in which they lived, the word came to mean an age, i.e., a period ordinarily occupied by each successive generation, say, of thirty or forty years, Acts 14:16; 15:21; Eph. 3:5; Col. 1:26; see also, e.g., Gen. 15:16. In Eph. 3:21 genea is combined with aiõn in a remarkable phrase in a doxology: “Unto Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus, unto all generations for ever and ever (wrongly in A.V. 'all ages, world without end')." The word genea is to be distinguished from aiõn, as not denoting a period of unlimited duration.

AGE
A. Nouns.
I. AION (Greek=aiõn), an age, era (to be connected with aei, ever, rather than with að, to breathe), signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.
The force attaching to the word is not so much that of the actual length of a period, but that of a period marked by spiritual or moral characteristics. This is illustrated in the use of the adjective [see Note (I) below] in the phrase "life eternal," in John 17:3, in respect of the increasing knowledge of God.
The phrases containing this word should not be rendered literally, but consistently with its sense of indefinite duration. Thus eis ton aiona does not mean "unto the age " but "for ever" (see, e.g., Heb. 5:6).
The Greeks contrasted that which came to an end with that which was expressed by this phrase, which shows that they conceived of it as expressing interminable duration.
The word occurs most frequently in the Gospel of John, the Hebrews and Revelation. It is sometimes wrongly rendered "world." See COURSE, ETERNAL, WORLD. It is a characteristic word of John's Gospel.

Notes: (I) Aiõnios, the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal, is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' 2 Cor. 4:18. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26, His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10, the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14, redemption, Heb. 9:12, salvation, 5:9, life in Christ, John 3:16, the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, the future rule of Christ, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is declared to be without end, Luke 1:33, of sin that never has forgiveness, Mark 3:29, the judgment of God, Heb. 6:2, and of fire, one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7. See ETERNAL, EVERLASTING.

In Rev. 15:3, the R.V. has "King of the ages," according to the texts which have aiõnõn; the A.V. has "of saints" (hagiõn, in inferior mss.). There is good ms. evidence for ethnõn, "nations," (A.V., marg.), probably a quotation from Jer. 10:7.

My reason for giving this information is that the Hebrew word, dwr-dowr, pronounced 'door' or 'dore', is translated into Greek as geneá, Gen. 6:9 and many other places. It is also used at Gen. 15:16 where it says, “Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.” And so we can't necessarily come to the conclusion that Jesus meant a period of time, or ERA, or AGE. I believe his application was for that “generation”, of his day, and a future “generation”. They are both similar in “attitude”, as in “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign;”. That “generation”, of his day, saw all those things that Jesus prophesied, except a few things. There are a some things that the generation of Jesus' time/era/age did not see. What would that be? (Matt 24:14, 21-22, 30-31) This Greek term, genea and the Hebrew term, dwr-dowr covered the period from birth to death. No it did not apply to a persons age, but to a group of peoples shared lifetime and experiences. This is what was meant in Gen. 6:9, and 15:16.

Something else to think about. Keep up the good work. These are the kinds of things we need to keep searching for, in order to strengthen our faith, with a deeper understanding.

Tsaphah

[arimatthewdavies]

Matt24:34...This Generation will by no means pass away.

This expression has been talked about a lot so I decided to look at the “Interlinear Bible” and the Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionary in the hope that I might get a better understanding of this sentence...and especially the word “GENERATION”

What was revealed is simply a revelation !

Here is how it reads in the Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.”

What was Jesus trying to convey here ? To get the point we have to look at the context and the meaning of the word 'generation' The root meaning of generation : Word number 1074..by implication..an AGE.

So what is an “AGE” ? “ Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature; EG"we live in a litigious age"

There are 2 parts to this.
1/ As this AGE,Its an historic period or ERA
2/ that it would be marked as such as “having some distinctive features”

The historic period or Age or Era had some distinctive features that made it possible to KNOW its was that Historic period mentioned by Jesus.

So,an AGE or ERA can be marked by certain features. Jesus was saying that the Great tribulation is an AGE or ERA of history marked by certain events. THE CONTEXT shows that Jesus is talking about the events of the AGE or ERA of history known as the last days. Verse 34 is surrounded by those events,that as the definition above explains, is marked by some distinctive feature(s).

This is most certainly the case with the Last Days. ALL the things mentioned surrounding V34 are clear indicators that those living at the time were IN / experiencing the Last Days.

Whats so special about this comment by Jesus, is that he was saying that all the features that would make up that AGE, would not only identify it as that time...but also ALL the events would happen. Thats what V34,35 are saying.

V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.”

Jesus was trying to convey that the AGE or ERA of his presence would be marked by certain events. Then to make a point about how ALL the events mentioned (plus the ones to be mentioned later in Revelation) will come true,he says : ALL the “distinctive features that mark the Generation,AGE ,ERA of history to be such... will happen. PLUS,to then back this thought up,says,”the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away”

ALL the events that would make it “ an era of history having some distinctive feature “ would all happen. Without them ALL happening,how can we say that it is a “ an age / era of history having some distinctive feature” ? We cant ! So in order for this to be true,ALL the events Jesus mentions would have to happen.

It cant very well be an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..if some of the features were missing...then it wouldn't be that “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..which is why Jesus then says what he did in V35. ALL of my words will come true !

If Jesus wanted the expression “generation” to have another meaning,he would have emphasized it with V35. In V35 He was doubly making a point because there was so much to happen in this period of time. Especially when we consider Revelation was yet to be given.

Was Jesus using the word generation / AGE / ERA as some part of a calculation intended for some future use ? Was he even hinting as to second meaning of the word 'generation” ? NO. He didnt even use a word with any ambiguity. He was saying that the period with all the signs was an historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..

It was a special AGE / ERA with special features which are mentioned in the surrounding verses of Matthew 24.. The signs proved the AGE / ERA was special..Historic..and the AGE that Jesus had spoken about was upon those living at that time because they could refer to all the special features happening around them.

Emphasizing a point.

In the bible verse numbers are put there to help us find a spot in scripture. These 2 verses,34,35 are ONE point Jesus is making.

In the first part of his sentence starting V34 he is saying that the Age or Era would be significant...because he uses a word that means that. He is saying its filled with Historical events that mark it as such. The context also proves this AND that the Age or Era would not pass away till all the things He is speaking about that mark it as such happen.

THEN to back-up this thought, He adds a guarantee in V35. That heaven and earth would pass away before any of his words don't come true about the just mentioned : “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”

What point was he trying to make ? Its clear !

He wasn't emphasizing anything except what the historic period would contain....” distinctive features” and that all of them would happen as he said they would...THUS marking it as an “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”

Another scriptural example of the term generation being used.

Often to understand the meaning of a word,we can go to other examples of the very same word being used in another setting by the same person. This way it becomes clear what its true meaning is. Another use clarifies its intention and why someone like Jesus would use it.

Matt 12:39 “A wicked and adulterous generation,keeps on seeking for a sign”

What was Jesus saying here ? That the people in general from this AGE or ERA of history were wicked and adulterous in their attitude. And in using the term 'generation' he was saying that it was an AGE, “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature” and that “distinctive feature” was their wicked and adulterous attitude in wanting more signs without appreciating that the ones they had already seen were telling them who Jesus truly was.

HE DID NOT MEAN ,that the generation of that time would live for 70,40,20 years and prove they were adulterous. No ! He meant that the people of that AGE or ERA ..those living at THAT time...were marked by a“distinctive feature”... that is:being wicked and adulterous.

The generation was any and all who were alive during the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry...which means the word “generation” is NOT age specific..it has nothing to do with anyones age. This supports the Greek meaning which is talking about an historic time period.

THOSE LIVING AT THAT TIME no matter what their age...because they were witnessing the miracles of Jesus and missing the point were wicked and adulterous . Their generation..Historic AGE..ERA was marked by this one distinctive feature. And, its very interesting that Jesus miracles were in a very Historic period of 3.5 years.

The generation, historic AGE / ERA he was speaking about in relation to being wicked and adulterous, were those in the period of 3.5 years...thats the period the miracles were happening.

So,that Historic AGE / ERA of history covered the time period the miracles happened...3.5 years.

In using this term “generation”..which also means AGE or ERA of history...,he wasn't asking his readers or listeners to start guessing how long that wicked and adulterous generation,Historic AGE or ERA were going to live. OR that it had started at some mathematically calculated time/starting point. Those of that AGE / ERA were of any number of years ..20-100 years . THAT ISNT THE POINT !

In saying this “generation”,he was saying :

“A wicked and adulterous generation,always seeking signs”

“A wicked and adulterous (historic) AGE,always seeking signs”

“A wicked and adulterous ( historic ) ERA,always seeking signs”

These 3 expressions are the same thing because thats what the word generation means,implies...Thats its meaning !

He DIDNT say that you had to be of a certain age to be part of the “ wicked and adulterous generation “ If you had the distinctive feature of being wicked and adulterous you were part of that historic Age or Era marked by the feature of being a wicked and adulterous generation.

Your age had nothing to do with it !

In using the word he used,Jesus showed it was an attitude that marked you..NOT YOUR AGE !

In using this example of the same word being used in a different context,we clearly understand what Jesus was getting at. Using a Greek dictionary also helps us to let go of a single meaning that is an ENGLISH understanding of the word Generation ,when we need to see Jesus was saying something totally different by looking at what the Greek word is and its meaning.

Context and the same word being used in another setting is proof of this.

In both cases,He was talking about: An historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature.
A generation / AGE / ERA of history having some distinctive feature.

This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of people of a certain age.

Matt 24:34

This understanding now allows us to see what the verse...what Jesus is getting at.

Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.”

...in no way will this historic AGE pass away until all these things have occurred.”

...in no way will this historic ERA pass away until all these things have occurred.”

The very things that made this period unique by its many “distinctive features”, would all come true because its those features that make it unique.

Jesus was in the middle of describing so many unique things that would mark the “Lords Day” All the signs/events made it an “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features” And this would include most things mentioned in Revelation.

ALL these combined make up the total of Jesus presence. V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.” ALL of those words would come true ! ALL of the features would happen !

All together,those signs /events make that generation..”Historic AGE..ERA of history having some distinctive feature”

NO OTHER time period in History will be marked by such “distinctive features”..because no other period with all the “distinctive features” would tell us we are living in the last days...that Jesus would be ruling in heaven as King of the Kingdom.

What could be a more unique generation,historic age,era of history having some “distinctive features”... than those living in those days,signaling that Jesus is now the enthroned King ? NONE !

This is why 34 and 35 are important in connection with this special time.

All those of any age living in that historic AGE / ERA would know by the things surrounding them that they are in the last days..AND also that the Generation / AGE / ERA of the last days would come to a completion by all the signs/events happening in their total. That the new world would come after that. ALL of Jesus words would be fulfilled including the END of this generation,historic AGE / ERA of the Last Days. This is of great comfort to those living in that time. If we were living in such a time,we would be happy when its over...since, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. Thats not how it is today. But if we found ourselves in such a time,Jesus words telling us that the Great Tribulation was going to have a definite end,that it would be short,helps us to endure.

You wouldnt have to concern yourself about your age and how long you were going to live. If you were alive in that AGE / ERA,you could be certain that it was going to be short: Jesus said “Unless those days were cut short”

Jesus Likened this period to a season. No-one wonders if many that saw the start of the season summer, were going to die because of it extended nature. A season is short. Very few people die in Summer because of its duration compared to those that live to see the end of it.

When you see the signs of summer,you know you are in the season of summer,because summer doesn't start on one particular day. All the things that happen in summer happen...and then summer finishes. It passes. BUT you can be sure that everything that has to happen in summer WILL happen because thats what happens in Summer. Matt 24:32

And this is exactly what Jesus is saying about the Last Days. He is describing an historic AGE or ERA that once you saw the events,you would know you were in it. The events tell you so. Its like a season and you don't wonder if its going to be a long drawn out period. ITS SHORT.

It only gets complicated when we use the word 'generation' in the ENGLISH sense...and this isn't the word Jesus had in mind..OR EVEN USED ! Researching the meaning shows a totally different idea. The same word used by Jesus in Matt 12:39 proves what the word means and what Jesus intended to say.

The ENGLISH meaning of generation is NOT the same as the Greek...and not the word Jesus was using.

Its NOT a life span..its an Historic AGE or ERA of history having some distinctive features”..and its short.

Those living in that time are witnessing the generation / AGE / ERA of history ,no matter their age...and all the things Jesus said would happen in that short period of time would ALL happen because thats what makes it an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features”

This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of a certain age.

This Generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History...will by no means pass away...

So now that we know that Jesus was talking about an Historic AGE or ERA,this expression “Generation” means something else. Its NOT talking about a group of people born at a certain time, OR that a certain group has to be a certain age as a adult...that they might be 70,40,20 years old..etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,to infitar'dum tedi'ardus (infinity of tedium)

It has nothing to do with people of any particular age. Jesus was talking about the Historic AGE / ERA itself MARKED by certain features..and that Historic AGE / ERA of history would not pass away till all the things He said would happen in it,were completed.

We cant say a person of a certain age has earthquakes..or is standing in a holy place..or that one person because of their age is like the days of Noah. No!..these are the events of the generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History that tells us that we are living in the last days. We can say... an Historic AGE / ERA in history has earthquakes,that someone would stand in a holy place during that time,or that time is like the days of Noah.

No person or persons can have those signs upon them. So we see that its the signs / events that ARE the Historic AGE / ERA.. Its NOT about those of any living age...or having been born at some particular time,so they would be of a certain age when Jesus began ruling and saw the start of the signs of the last days..

ITS THE EVENTS within an historic period THAT ARE THE GENERATION / HISTORIC AGE / ERA..not the people living at that time who are of a certain living age.

The signs / events are the HISTORIC AGE / ERA /generation . They are one and the same thing because of it being an: “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features.”

The Historic Period is marked by distinctive features...the distinctive features mark the Historic Period.

Jesus was saying:
“That generation / Historic Age / Era of History would not pass away till all the things that I have said would be included in it,that make it significant and an Historic AGE..WILL happen. When all these things have taken place,it is over. When you are alive in this time,you will know you are living in this special Historic AGE or ERA because you see all the things I have spoken...so you will know I'm in Heaven ruling as King. As Jehovah's appointed King,I will bring an end to this Historic AGE / ERA..so take comfort,it will be “cut short”

Heaven and earth will pass away before any of my words fail...this is my guarantee to you that all my words,including your deliverance,WILL COME TRUE “
if it is of any help jehovah in speaking about the punishment for sin said fathers sins would be visited upon the offspring son up to the 3rd generation. her we find out that a generation means the children that come forth from people, therefore the 1914 born people may not be the last but the children of those born in 1914 .
BECAUSE armagedon certainly is a punishment for sin and the bible says in the case of sin generation includes father son and grandchildren
so add about 42 years longer to the wait! think about this bible comparison because i beleive its the valid one in this case..

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was a little surprised to see how the Aramaic Lamsa translated the word generation:

Matthew 24:34 - "Truly I say to you that this race will not pass away until all these things happen."

What is also interesting is that this is found only in the older editions of Lamsa. If you check a newer one, you will find the word generation used. I had to scour the internet to find a used Lamsa dated 1981 to verify what I had learned, so it seems some changes were made after he died.

Love,

Steadfast

[Molly]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was a little surprised to see how the Aramaic Lamsa translated the word generation:

Matthew 24:34 - "Truly I say to you that this race will not pass away until all these things happen."

What is also interesting is that this is found only in the older editions of Lamsa. If you check a newer one, you will find the word generation used. I had to scour the internet to find a used Lamsa dated 1981 to verify what I had learned, so it seems some changes were made after he died.

Love,

Steadfast


Thanks for that information, Steadfast.

That could significantly change understanding. I checked my Lasma edition and sure enough, it says "race." So, I checked the copywrite - 1967. Wonder why the change. Although there are many changes similar to this in so many translations, it is not a surprise, but one has to wonder - what was the purpose here.

Molly

[Jahsdisciple]

Tsaphah,
Vine has his issues. And is not the only bible commentator..he is still hung up on the English meaning,which is not what Jesus was saying in the cases quoted.Of course there must be times when generation does mean a life span,but not in the cases I quoted...and many others with the same word being used.

I'll explain.

I. AION (Greek=aiõn), an age, era (to be connected with aei, ever, rather than with að, to breathe), signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.
This is exactly the same definition / explanation of the word “AGE” as i supplied:” Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”
“time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period” EQUALS: “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”The context of the verse itself explains it also.
Matt 12:39 “A wicked and adulterous generation,keeps on seeking for a sign”


So how was is an Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature ? ” Or from what you quoted:”or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.”


Was that generation / Age /Historical Era with distinctive features... “what takes place in the period.”..30-40 years ? No ! The generation is conditional to the distinctive features within it... “what takes place”

1/ The people who had the attitude.
The people were of any age. Its the attitude as distinctive feature.

2/Their attitude towards Jesus in reaction to the miracles he performed.
They may have been wicked and adulterous before that but Jesus miracles confirmed AND cemented this attitude. Without Jesus being there,this attitude wouldn't have been actually considered evidence against them because the rejected Jehovah's anointed one.

3/ Jesus being there.
As long as Jesus was there as the anointed of Jehovah,then it was a special time in history with features that marked it as that AGE. If he wasnt there,then that AGE or ERA was over or hadnt begun. It was their reaction to Jesus that showed their attitude.

Who he was,proved by the miracles and what he said ,made it obvious that they were wicked and adulterous.

What he was and what he did,manifested that. If He wasnt there as the anointed of Jehovah,then this wouldnt have been manifested in a special way because of “that era of history” would be missing THAT distinctive feature...“what takes place”

4/ His being anointed so that he could perform miracles exposed their adulterous attitude .

Jesus could only have performed those miracles if he was anointed by Jehovah to do so. He did and said the things he did because he was King designate and the miracles were evidence of this.

They were in a covenant position with Jehovah..like they were His wife. They were adulterous because they wouldn't accept Jehovah telling them THROUGH Jesus, that Jehovah was now trying to tell them something via the miracles...about who Jesus was and the message He had for them through Jesus. As a wife like organisation,they did not listen to their “husbandly owner”..thus they were “adulterous” in a literal sense BUT only because Jesus was there as a representative of the “Husband”

If any of these conditions..the special features that marked the AGE were not there,then it no longer continued to be that AGE or ERA with the distinctive features.

4/Jesus could only have performed those miracles if he was anointed by Jehovah to do so. He did and said the things he did because he was King designate and the miracles were evidence of this.

So it had nothing to do with time,EVEN BY THE BOLD QUOTE YOU USED...it was about the special features in the:Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature.

That period lasted 3.5 years because Jesus was only there as the anointed of Jehovah for that long..not 30-40 years as the definition “GENERATION” you give presumes.

It was made manifest during this historic period when Jesus was there because Him being there as a representative of Jehovah was a very distinctive feature ...OR time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.” WHICH IS NO DIFFERANT FROM THE DEFINITION THAT i USED TO BEGIN WITH.

The rendition /explanation of “generation” you have quoted is incorrect.

Same with Matt 24.

What makes it a special time is not the passage of time but the signs. Except for the word generation which is misunderstood and misused,everything else is about events..”SIGNS” !..“what takes place”

Thats what Jesus disciples asked for: SIGNS”or ” “what will take place” at this time “
If those days were cut short...using the definition you have supplied for 'generation” ,then the generation should be 15-20 years instead of 30-40..since its cuts short. So using a term that indicates generation as a persons life span is meaningless. In the cases Ive used as examples.

Its the tribulations severity and completion of the signs(“what takes place”) which means Jesus would step in and cut the days short.

If it signifies an indefinite period as your quote explains,then this means that even after the signs and Revelation are completed,the last days would continue. SO,either the last days are a certain period.. a generation..or its a time period determined by the completion of the events in the period:” Or from what you quoted for AGE:”or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.”

It cant be both “generation” in the definition you have used AND AGE at the same time.

The context is showing us that in both cases Ive quoted that AGE is the right understanding by:“time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.” (YOUR QUOTE)...which is saying the same thing as the definition I used:Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature ? ”..ITS THE SAME THING / the same meaning !

If the verse is about a persons life span,it COULDNT be cut short because it would defeat the reason why Jesus mentioned a persons life span in the 1st place...so why say it ?

If the time was cut short before all the signs were completed it would defeat Jesus mentioning them.

Thats why its absurd to use the English understanding of generation instead of using the Greek and using the context to explain the term itself.

Any and ALL the EVENTS/signs had to happen. When you saw them you knew you were in that time. If all the events 'features' happened,then you knew the time for final war to happen was about to happen..its wasnt about a time period.

The final war could begin because the signs...“what takes place”... are completed NOT because a persons life span had finished.

Its NOT conditional to time (according to the word “AGE),its about the events all happening..and especially for Revelation,because these were “distinctive features” that marked more special events that show them as being from Heaven..

[arimatthewdavies]

wow it does indeed say race! so now we have a total new meaning the bible is not saying that the generation that sees these things will wittness the end of the world but rather that the mentioned events would happen before our race dies out or self destructs!
hmmmmm have we been the victum of a incorect and misleading interpratatation?

[shikinah]

wow it does indeed say race! so now we have a total new meaning the bible is not saying that the generation that sees these things will wittness the end of the world but rather that the mentioned events would happen before our race dies out or self destructs!
hmmmmm have we been the victum of a incorect and misleading interpratatation?

Well from what I see yes we have, and im not just speaking about this translation. If the word trinity was added, and the name Jehovah removed, and the letter "a god" edited what else has been done:confused:
Thats why the book of Revelation foresaw this happening and mentioned about all the plagues coming upon anyone who added or took away from the word of God. The theme and message cannot be changed, but satan only needs to add or take away a word to change a whole meaning. As we can see with the whole Trinity cult. For this very reason Jehovah is made to look like a blood thirsty killer, who wipes out innocent women and children because they do not serve him. Iv'e had this argument many times from bible haters. But if you analyse the scriptures deeply you see there was a more significant reason, which tie in with the scripture," there were giants in the earth in those days and also after that"
Well thats what I have personally noticed, but yes the translation of one word can be misleading.



Shikinah

[Jahsdisciple]

There is some more talk about generation as a some new explanation is given. I thought Id add some more info about this topic.

I dont want to sound like a broken record,but this whole mess about 'generation' is because they dont bother to look at the original word mis-translated as "generation".

If they bothered to do this,they would see that Jesus presence...the real last days...are PART of a special era/age marked by special events. Its a combination of many things/events. It has nothing to do with any meaning of any life span of any sort.

They are fixated with an equation...and if generation wasnt part of it,there would be no 1914 at all. 1914 only exists because 'generation' says we are living in the last days. While the generation is alive,then the last days must still be happening.

Its special as an Era or Age(original meaning of generation)..and this is marked by certain events,not the passage of time of a person life.

Jesus gave many events that marked the period as special...and when those events were completed/happened THEN that Era / Age is over. Its not governed by a time period in the gospels. Revelation explains how long the last days are. BUT the gospel accounts do not mention a time period...ITS EVENTS that mark the Era as special.

Matt 24:34"This Era would by no means pass until all these things occur"

EVEN the context of the verse itself explains / supports the above. Jesus said THINGS would occur.

Matt 24:3 "what will be the sign of your presence"...they didnt ask about how long the period was going to be. Jesus could have said how long..but the point of the questions was..what was going to mark that period as special. Was it the time length of the period ?

NO-WHERE does Jesus mention a time period. They asked 'what will be the sign'. Jesus explained the 'sign' was a composite sign..that is,it would be many events. then to make the point,he says that ALL THESE EVENTS would happen...which is what Matt 24:34 is saying.

There might seem,from the disciples point of view,a lot of events to happen. Jesus is making the point that they ALL would happen because they ALL needed to happen in that Era/Age...because all these things needed to happen within that Era... thats what makes it special..

...thats what the disciples were asking for. What events would happen so that the Era of his presence would be known. Jesus was explaining that many things had to happen during this time...not just him being enthroned as King . Events had to happen here on earth before the Kingdom could begin on earth. These were the events he spoke about.

Just like the 10 plagues had to happen before the exodus,the events of Matt 24 had to happen before the Kingdom could start its rule over the earth.

And by no means would any of these events not happen because they formed part of that special Era / Age of Jesus presence. All events were needed before he could begin ruling. Revelation mentions even more events that would mark this time period as a special Era.

[jayme]

All those of any age living in that historic AGE / ERA would know by the things surrounding them that they are in the last days..AND also that the Generation / AGE / ERA of the last days would come to a completion by all the signs/events happening in their total. That the new world would come after that. ALL of Jesus words would be fulfilled including the END of this generation,historic AGE / ERA of the Last Days. This is of great comfort to those living in that time. If we were living in such a time,we would be happy when its over...since, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. Thats not how it is today. But if we found ourselves in such a time,Jesus words telling us that the Great Tribulation was going to have a definite end,that it would be short,helps us to endure.

You wouldnt have to concern yourself about your age and how long you were going to live. If you were alive in that AGE / ERA,you could be certain that it was going to be short: Jesus said “Unless those days were cut short”

Jesus Likened this period to a season. No-one wonders if many that saw the start of the season summer, were going to die because of it extended nature. A season is short. Very few people die in Summer because of its duration compared to those that live to see the end of it.

When you see the signs of summer,you know you are in the season of summer,because summer doesn't start on one particular day. All the things that happen in summer happen...and then summer finishes. It passes. BUT you can be sure that everything that has to happen in summer WILL happen because thats what happens in Summer. Matt 24:32

And this is exactly what Jesus is saying about the Last Days. He is describing an historic AGE or ERA that once you saw the events,you would know you were in it. The events tell you so. Its like a season and you don't wonder if its going to be a long drawn out period. ITS SHORT
.

Jahsdisciple,
I especially enjoyed the points you made as quoted above. Understanding that these things were said, in part, to comfort those who would be living thru them is a key point. As stated, Jesus said "unless those days were cut short....", to me the term "those days" could rightly be paralleled to "this generation" as spoken of later. This also reminds me of the point made in Lukes account that reads: "as these things start to occur, raise youselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near." This point in the book of Luke comes just before the part about the "fig tree" and "this generation", which is found in all three accounts. It just makes sense that this era or time period would be fairly short, that those who entered into it would live to see the end of it and thus need assurance that these dreadful times would end shortly.

[Jahsdisciple]

.

Jahsdisciple,
I especially enjoyed the points you made as quoted above. Understanding that these things were said, in part, to comfort those who would be living thru them is a key point. As stated, Jesus said "unless those days were cut short....", to me the term "those days" could rightly be paralleled to "this generation" as spoken of later. This also reminds me of the point made in Lukes account that reads: "as these things start to occur, raise youselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near." This point in the book of Luke comes just before the part about the "fig tree" and "this generation", which is found in all three accounts. It just makes sense that this era or time period would be fairly short, that those who entered into it would live to see the end of it and thus need assurance that these dreadful times would end shortly.

Hi Jayme,
Some good points.

So,if the 'generation' is a whole persons life-time,the end could not be NEAR...its a whole life time away. Its NOT near at all ! Thats why Era / Age is the right explanation. How could we lift our heads up knowing its maybe even 2 life times away. And with constant changing of how long that generation is,how can that help us to endure..it cant,and its annoying people no end.

If 1914 is right,then how can it be near ? Its not ! 30-70 years is not near.

Then we have Revelation giving us a time period. Thats why the end IS NEAR,once its STARTED.

Once the last days START,the end is NEAR.

[truthseeker]

Hi Jayme,
Some good points.

So,if the 'generation' is a whole persons life-time,the end could not be NEAR...its a whole life time away. Its NOT near at all ! Thats why Era / Age is the right explanation. How could we lift our heads up knowing its maybe even 2 life times away. And with constant changing of how long that generation is,how can that help us to endure..it cant,and its annoying people no end.

If 1914 is right,then how can it be near ? Its not ! 30-70 years is not near.

Then we have Revelation giving us a time period. Thats why the end IS NEAR,once its STARTED.

Once the last days START,the end is NEAR.

Excellent line of reasoning Jahsdisciple

I like it I like it a lot:rolleyes:

truthseeker

[Jahsdisciple]

Matt 24:22 "Unless those days were cut short"

What days ? The great tribulation.

According to the 'generation' idea,the generation actually is as long as the great tribulation...they are one and the same thing. “Generation” determines the length of the GT. This is why there are changes about what the length of what the generation is...for as long as the generation lives,then this is how long the GT should continue. “we must still be in the GT because the generation is still alive in some way”..which is why they keep trying to resolve this dilemma with different versions of “generation”. This also presumes we are in the GT or last days.

HOWEVER,the above words of Jesus say:"Unless those days were cut short" If we follow the idea of generation,we have to look at the context of its use. The context is that the generation would be cut short..if generation is the right translation of the original Greek word...which it isnt.

This means that the 'generation'...that is, the time period/length governing the GT would be cut short.

This ALSO means that the generation also must be cut short because its used as a measure of time to say how long the GT continues. Jesus was pointing out that the days would not just continue to its natural end...because it would mean the end of people living in that time period if the days were not cut short.

Lets be generous. Lets say the 'generation' is 100 years old..This would mean that unless the days were cut short,the GT would go for 100 years. NOW... applying Jesus words:"those days were cut short"..this would mean that the generations length would not continue to its natural full length..of 100 years. He was saying that the generations length would be cut short because generation determines the length of the GT .

What does "cut short" mean ?
Greek word 2856; to dock ie (fig) abridge, shorten.

Dock:”To cut off a part from; to shorten; to deduct from; to subject to a deduction

Abridge:”To cut short; curtail”
Synonyms..shorten.


If the GT length is determined by the 'generation' length,this means that the GT continues for as long as the “generation” lives its life span. BUT Jesus said that generations length would be cut short..

So how long then is it ,if its cut short ? If we have already said its 100 years...and then its cut short...it cant be 100 years,can it . We are coming up to 2014. Thats 100 years of a 'generation' since 1914...and this doesnt include it being cut short.


Whats a fair “Cut Short Period”?

In their haste to find the “length of time of a “generation” “...to match the long period passed since 1914,they have forgotten that Jesus said” those days were cut short.” So no matter how long the 'generation' is,its length is cut short.

All this confusion could have been avoided simply by looking up a Greek dictionary and seeing that this word should be Age / Era. These words have nothing to do with the length of someones life.

[jayme]

More very good points Jahsdisciple!

Yes, in the prophecy "those days" which are cut short, the "great tribulation", and the "generation" are all speaking of the same time period.

Once it has started it wont last for a long extended time, we will be comforted by that and also fortified to endure. We must endure to the end even if we die, which many will, but their deeds will go right with them. Rev. 14:12,13.

How will those days be cut short? On account of the Chosen Ones. Matt24:22

What happens to these Chosen Ones? Notice Rev. 11:7, they finish their witnessing and are killed. This is what ends the tribulation and now it is time for the 7th trumpet.

Notice Matt. 24:29-31,"Immediately after the tribulation......he will send forth his angel with a great trumpet sound (the 7th trumpet) and they will gather his chosen ones...."

This is what is shown at Rev. 11:11-13, they are ressurected and verse 15 shows that it is the 7th trumpet and now finally "the kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord". It is now time for Christ to act!

[LonelySheep]

Jayme
Yes, in the prophecy "those days" which are cut short, the "great tribulation", and the "generation" are all speaking of the same time period.

No they are not. The two are completely different. The GT and Armageddon are NOT the same.

[jayme]

Hi LonleySheep,



The GT and Armageddon are NOT the same.


I agree, but what you have stated here is not what I said.

Notice what I said here:


It is now time for Christ to act!

Here I am referring to armageddon. It is armageddon that cuts the GT short. imo

This is just my current understanding so far and by no means am I wanting to be dogmatic, but just sharing viewpoints. :)

[LonelySheep]

Hi LonleySheep,



I agree, but what you have stated here is not what I said.

Notice what I said here:



Here I am referring to armageddon. It is armageddon that cuts the GT short. imo

This is just my current understanding so far and by no means am I wanting to be dogmatic, but just sharing viewpoints. :)

Jayme,

Sorry, I posted late at night. I now see that you are saying that the time period these events occur is the same and not that the GT and Armaggedon are the same. Agreed.

Just to add a little thought, I believe the GT is Devil inspired. He goes for the scorched earth policy and would not leave a worm alive if he had a chance. God has to step in to save flesh, in particular the anointed ones, so they can be sealed.

On the other hand, Armageddon is Gods final response to rebellious mankind, King of the North etc...

[truthseeker]

Jayme,

Sorry, I posted late at night. I now see that you are saying that the time period these events occur is the same and not that the GT and Armaggedon are the same. Agreed.

Just to add a little thought, I believe the GT is Devil inspired. He goes for the scorched earth policy and would not leave a worm alive if he had a chance. God has to step in to save flesh, in particular the anointed ones, so they can be sealed.

On the other hand, Armageddon is Gods final response to rebellious mankind, King of the North etc...

Yes: Scorched Earth Policy; that is exactly what one would expect from a:
Mass murderer, Psychopathic lying, antisocial, completely pissed off with out long to live Dragon. Exactly!!!!!!

truthseeker

[Tsaphah]

Yes: Scorched Earth Policy; that is exactly what one would expect from a:
Mass murderer, Psychopathic lying, antisocial, completely pissed off with out long to live Dragon. Exactly!!!!!!

truthseeker

I was trying to explain this to a close friend of mine last night. I started off by saying, “I know you don't believe the same as I do, about Jesus, and who he is. But, think about this.”

Here is God Almighty, having had no beginning, no end, always existed. He decides he will create others like himself. He creates another, exactly like himself. The only difference is that this created individual does not contain the power of life within himself. He receives that power from his father (creator). (Jn 5:19, 26) Then, the two of them, the father and first created son, begin to create others like themselves. They are similar to the father and son except they have been created by two, not one. That is why Jesus is considered to be the “first born” or prototype. There is no other like him. He is the perfect reflection of his father. (Jn 14:9) He is given life within himself, after he proves his faithfulness, even to death.

Everything that was created, was for the son. They worked side by side as partners. The first born was to inherit what was the fathers by right. Just as today, everything your father owns, is rightfully his. He gives it to whom he chooses. (Jn 16:15) Jesus/Michael was to inherit the creation from his father, Jehovah. But, one of the others became a liar, a slanderer. He became jealous of his brother. When he found out that he would not get any of the inheritance, he decided to destroy it all. That is his purpose, to leave nothing to inherit. This is the same lesson we learn of Jacob and Esau. (Ge 25:27) The one despised the inheritance, where the other loved it and desired it. (Ge 25:34)

Satan's plan is to destroy the entire universe, everything that has been created, just so his brother cannot have it. That has been his goal from the time soon after he realized he would not have any part of the inheritance. There is still the lie and slander of Jehovah's name to be avenged, right to the end. That is why he will be released from the abyss at the end of the thousand years. A final test of the challenge given to Jehovah. (Job 1:7-11)

Like a wild and crazy person, he is willing to take everything with him to destruction. Like the mass murderer and evil individual he is, he will destroy as much as he can, and commit suicide in the process. (Rev 20:10)

[James]

Everything that was created, was for the son. They worked side by side as partners. The first born was to inherit what was the fathers by right. Just as today, everything your father owns, is rightfully his. He gives it to whom he chooses. (Jn 16:15) Jesus/Michael was to inherit the creation from his father, Jehovah. But, one of the others became a liar, a slanderer. He became jealous of his brother. When he found out that he would not get any of the inheritance, he decided to destroy it all. That is his purpose, to leave nothing to inherit.
Satan's plan is to destroy the entire universe, everything that has been created, just so his brother cannot have it. That has been his goal from the time soon after he realized he would not have any part of the inheritance.

Hello Tsaphah,

Can you explain, from scripture, how Jesus was going to inherit 'the creation' and how that drove Satan to jealousy?

My understanding of inheritance is: something to be passed on, usually from the owner to a recipient. ie. from a parent to a child, after the parent has died.

Inheritance (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inheritance)
Main Entry: in·her·i·tance
Pronunciation: \in-ˈher-ə-tən(t)s, -ˈhe-rə-\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a : the act of inheriting (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inheriting) property b : the reception of genetic qualities by transmission from parent (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inheritance#) to offspring c : the acquisition of a possession, condition, or trait from past generations
2 : something that is or may be inherited (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inherited)

Before Satan sinned first and then caused Eve to disobey Jehovah, was there going to be an inheritance?

Was Jehovah going to rest on the seventh day and retire? And was He going to grow old and die and 'leave it all' to His favorite Son?

My take on it, In the creative days, everything was good. Jesus was 'begotten' of Jehovah and then both of them set all other creation in motion.

Why Satan became jealous of mankind, we have not been given that answer.

I do believe that those of us that reach the end of the thousand years, will get the same 'come on' from Satan, ' (Genesis 3:5) . . .YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

agape,
James

[Tsaphah]

Can you explain, from scripture, how Jesus was going to inherit 'the creation' and how that drove Satan to jealousy?James

Well, let's see...How about Matthew 25:34? When you read this, you have to “read between the lines”, so to speak. You must get the answer as to “Who is the King”? Who is “My Father”? Who are those “blessed by My Father”? It says “they” will “inherit the kingdom” which was prepared for you from “the foundation of the world.” When did that take place? If you get the answer of who the King is, where and how does he get this kingdom? Where does he get the right to offer this as an inheritance to others? (Heb 1:2)



My understanding of inheritance is: something to be passed on, usually from the owner to a recipient. ie. from a parent to a child, after the parent has died.
James

A person can receive an inheritance without the grantor being dead, or having to die. They can still be living.



...how that drove Satan to jealousy?
James

“And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Ge 3:15) Why would Jehovah mention a “seed”? Why not end it then and there? The law of inheritance was apparently in force at that time. Otherwise, there would be no need for the seed. Satan obviously knew this and his intent was to destroy it all.



Before Satan sinned first and then caused Eve to disobey Jehovah, was there going to be an inheritance?
James

Obviously, that was the case. Satan had already decided to sin, long before he committed the actual act of deceiving Eve. (Jn 8:44)



Why Satan became jealous of mankind, we have not been given that answer.
James

This is a misconception. Satan was not jealous of mankind. He was jealous of Jesus/Michael, the only begotten (prototokos) son of Jehovah God. He was to inherit all the works that he and his father created. Why not, he had joint rights as a creator of all the things made. As a matter of fact, he owns Satan!

Another question is, what is the inheritance? What does he get? Is it a bunch of broken down, corrupt, selfish humans, living on a polluted planet?

Jesus used many illustrations/parables to explain Jehovah's purposes. Jehovah's plans for the future are only a guessing game for us humans. He rested from creating. That didn't mean he stopped everything and went to sleep. It says, “And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made.” (Ge 2:2 NWT ) It says he “completed” his work (creating things). Then he “rested shabath, which means ceased, or stopped. That's where the term Sabbath comes from. He completed his creating and he stopped that process.

I think you will be able to figure it out. At this point, I won't go into the meaning of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic words, or the history and culture that covers inheritance.

Tsaphah hpc

[Jahsdisciple]

Well, let's see...How about Matthew 25:34? When you read this, you have to “read between the lines”, so to speak. You must get the answer as to “Who is the King”? Who is “My Father”? Who are those “blessed by My Father”? It says “they” will “inherit the kingdom” which was prepared for you from “the foundation of the world.” When did that take place? If you get the answer of who the King is, where and how does he get this kingdom? Where does he get the right to offer this as an inheritance to others? (Heb 1:2)



A person can receive an inheritance without the grantor being dead, or having to die. They can still be living.



“And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Ge 3:15) Why would Jehovah mention a “seed”? Why not end it then and there? The law of inheritance was apparently in force at that time. Otherwise, there would be no need for the seed. Satan obviously knew this and his intent was to destroy it all.



Obviously, that was the case. Satan had already decided to sin, long before he committed the actual act of deceiving Eve. (Jn 8:44)



This is a misconception. Satan was not jealous of mankind. He was jealous of Jesus/Michael, the only begotten (prototokos) son of Jehovah God. He was to inherit all the works that he and his father created. Why not, he had joint rights as a creator of all the things made. As a matter of fact, he owns Satan!

Another question is, what is the inheritance? What does he get? Is it a bunch of broken down, corrupt, selfish humans, living on a polluted planet?

Jesus used many illustrations/parables to explain Jehovah's purposes. Jehovah's plans for the future are only a guessing game for us humans. He rested from creating. That didn't mean he stopped everything and went to sleep. It says, “And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made.” (Ge 2:2 NWT ) It says he “completed” his work (creating things). Then he “rested shabath, which means ceased, or stopped. That's where the term Sabbath comes from. He completed his creating and he stopped that process.

I think you will be able to figure it out. At this point, I won't go into the meaning of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic words, or the history and culture that covers inheritance.

Tsaphah hpc

If Jesus is going to recieve everything as an inheritance,why does he give it back to Jah after everything is restored ? If its going to be his,why give it back to the father ? you base all this 'inheritance' on all things being created 'for' Jesus...and that has nothing to do with JC recieving it as an inheritance

He hands it all back to Jah after restoration just so he can have it given back to him...That doesnt make sence.

[Tsaphah]

If Jesus is going to recieve everything as an inheritance, why does he give it back to Jah after everything is restored ? If its going to be his,why give it back to the father ? you base all this 'inheritance' on all things being created 'for' Jesus...and that has nothing to do with JC recieving it as an inheritance

He hands it all back to Jah after restoration just so he can have it given back to him...That doesnt make sence.

“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. (Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV )

What is the state of the inheritance at present? It would be like your father having a pristine classic automobile, and a valuable painting by a well known artist. You will inherit them at some point in the future. They were promised to you. Your brother hears about this and becomes extremely jealous, because he wanted them. He thought they would be his. Rather than letting you inherit them, he corrupts them by pounding dents in the car, putting sugar in the gas tank, and pouring chemicals on the paint. He punches holes in the painting and splashes discoloring paint on the painting. It appears they are worthless. Your father is going to throw them into a furnace and destroy them.

Now... that is your inheritance. Do you still want it in those conditions? They are still in the possession of you father. What do you do? You love your father dearly. You see the hurt he feels. You volunteer to fix all the damage that is done. You tell him, you can do it. It seems impossible, yet your love for your father is so great, you are willing to give your life to save them. (Jn 19:30) After you have all the damage repaired to original conditions, you present them to your father.

He in turn, seeing the love you have for him and the love for the gifts he will give you, your father now gives them to you as he had originally intended. Now he goes on to other plans that he had in mind.

This is not a very good illustration, but it's the best I can come up with at this time. It's hard for me to explain it the way it is presented throughout the Bible.

Tsaphah

[James]

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by James http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46290#post46290)
Can you explain, from scripture, how Jesus was going to inherit 'the creation' and how that drove Satan to jealousy?James


Well, let's see...How about Matthew 25:34? When you read this, you have to “read between the lines”, so to speak. You must get the answer as to “Who is the King”? Who is “My Father”? Who are those “blessed by My Father”? It says “they” will “inherit the kingdom” which was prepared for you from “the foundation of the world.” When did that take place? If you get the answer of who the King is, where and how does he get this kingdom? Where does he get the right to offer this as an inheritance to others? (Heb 1:2)

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by James http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46290#post46290)
My understanding of inheritance is: something to be passed on, usually from the owner to a recipient. ie. from a parent to a child, after the parent has died.
James





A person can receive an inheritance without the grantor being dead, or having to die. They can still be living.

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by James http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46290#post46290)
...how that drove Satan to jealousy?
James





“And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Ge 3:15) Why would Jehovah mention a “seed”? Why not end it then and there? The law of inheritance was apparently in force at that time. Otherwise, there would be no need for the seed. Satan obviously knew this and his intent was to destroy it all.

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by James http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46290#post46290)
Before Satan sinned first and then caused Eve to disobey Jehovah, was there going to be an inheritance?
James





Obviously, that was the case. Satan had already decided to sin, long before he committed the actual act of deceiving Eve. (Jn 8:44)

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by James http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46290#post46290)
Why Satan became jealous of mankind, we have not been given that answer.
James




This is a misconception. Satan was not jealous of mankind. He was jealous of Jesus/Michael, the only begotten (prototokos) son of Jehovah God. He was to inherit all the works that he and his father created. Why not, he had joint rights as a creator of all the things made. As a matter of fact, he owns Satan!

Another question is, what is the inheritance? What does he get? Is it a bunch of broken down, corrupt, selfish humans, living on a polluted planet?

Jesus used many illustrations/parables to explain Jehovah's purposes. Jehovah's plans for the future are only a guessing game for us humans. He rested from creating. That didn't mean he stopped everything and went to sleep. It says, “And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made.” (Ge 2:2 NWT ) It says he “completed” his work (creating things). Then he “rested shabath, which means ceased, or stopped. That's where the term Sabbath comes from. He completed his creating and he stopped that process.

I think you will be able to figure it out. At this point, I won't go into the meaning of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic words, or the history and culture that covers inheritance.

Tsaphah hpc

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hello again brother Tsaphah,

I still don't see where the scriptures indicate that there was going to be an inheritance BEFORE any sin was committed. Matthew 25:34 is the provision Jehovah made for mankinds' return to perfection AFTER sin was committed by Satan/Adam/Eve.

I agree with your point that a grantor does not have to die to pass on an inheritance.

Your reference to Genesis 3:15 shows different seeds BECAUSE of sin. Good seed/ Bad seed.

Now let's look at the reference to John 8:44.
(John 8:44) . . .YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

That indicates Satan was a manslayer (meaning man was existing at that point). That still indicates to me, at least, that Satan was jealous of man and by extension, Jehovah.

(Genesis 2:16-17) . . .And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

(Genesis 3:1-5) 3 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

Those scriptures tell us that since Satan knew of the concept of good and bad, that implies that Jehovah, Jesus and quite possibly angels also knew of it. They all had free wills.

So, once again, what was Jesus going to inherit? The kingdom of man. Why? Because man had sinned and could not be left to rule himself.


agape,
James

[Tsaphah]

dr( (wr yb hn( y) e) hw) w) bq(y

hpc

[Tsaphah]

Very funny, James.
I really expected more from you. If you think I can't figure this out, you're sorely mistaken. It will probably take you a while to figure out and read my reply.

You still don't get it.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."- Aristotle

[Jahsdisciple]

I know Ive joined this extra topic,but can we stay on topic please.
Thanks

[Jahsdisciple]

Near: Greek word 1451: near,at hand.


English meaning of near.

Also, close or near at hand. Within easy reach, nearby, as in I like to keep my tools close at hand. [1300s]
Also, on hand. Nearby in time, soon, or A change of administration is on hand

Another interesting thing Jesus says about that special Age / Era..Matt 24:32,"you know that summer is near ....v33 that he is near at the doors "


Its the same Greek word being used in both verses: Near


He is not saying when summer arrives,but when its near,not happened yet.
He is not saying that when you see the signs, it will be like summer and that we will enter into summer... and at the end of it,the end will come.


He is saying that summer is near,not yet happened...and that in the same way,the signs say he is near.


He is “near”... to bring the next season,which is summer. Him “being at the doors” is part of bringing the next season.


Its like the seasons. When you are in winter you KNOW that another will follow. But while in winter,signs happen that tell you spring/summer is coming....towards the end of winter. So while in one season,things happen in creation that tell you another season is 'near'. When the signs of Matt 24 happen, you will know you ARE IN one season, Era / Age...but within that season,the signs occurring that tell you another is coming...“summer”. So while in the 'season' of the Great Tribulation ..and the signs of the Era / Age are happening,the signs of 'summer',Jesus “being at the doors” happen. The time of 'Jesus being at the doors' is NOT another season...its part of the Great Tribulation.


Its the signs that tell you He / “summer” is near, not that it will pass,its so that you know that summer is near as Him being at the doors is near... and that he would act to bring the current 'season' to a finish .


We need to understand 'summer' in those days included spring. It was a time of planting crops,harvesting..New growth and regeneration. “summer” is what happens AFTER the signs of him arriving occur and Jesus brings the Great Tribulation to a finish . Summer is the New World after Jesus has finished the Age / Era of the Great tribulation.


In the literal season of winter,when we see the signs of spring,how long do we have to wait ? If we see the signs of spring,this means that most of winter is behind us. It means that spring is literally near...about to happen.


When this happens,when we see the signs of spring...how long do we have to wait ? Not long because its “NEAR,at hand”. There is a very short period before spring arrives...that is why its NEAR.


Part of the Era/Age of the GT,is Jesus being at the doors...Him being part of it and bringing an end to the Era / Age that he talks about which is recognisable by the signs.


The signs of summer dont continue after summer arrives...they tell you summer is near.

He said once you were IN the Era / Age because the events were telling you so,this would be like the signs of summer being near,not summer itself. The events of the Era / Age tell you something important..Jesus is: at hand / near... to bring the next season.

The events Jesus mentions tell you that you are in the Great Tribulation . this is what Matt 24 is about..the KNOWING that you are in that Era / Age of the Great Tribulation ...and what events are within that time.

HOWEVER,once in the Great Tribulation ,these tell you that Jesus is 'at hand,nearby in time,within easy reach'..as the definitions of “near” above show.

Part of the 'signs' of the special Era/Age is:That you ARE living in that time..PLUS it tells you that Jesus is 'at hand,nearby'


If Jesus knew there was going to be a calculation based on part of the Hebrew scriptures that gave you a starting point of the Great Tribulation,then why gives a list of signs that would tell you that you are living in that time?


Jesus being 'near',which means He is soon to arrive so that He brings it to an end...IS PART of that special Era...and that Era would not pass till He did come.."ALL these things occur"...including Him being: near;'at hand,nearby in time,within easy reach'

When you see the signs, you will know he is NEAR..at hand. Nearby,within easy reach...which would mean the END OF THAT ERA,was also near..at hand,nearby.

Once we are in the Era/Age,we would know He is nearby in time and would bring an end to that Era / Age.


This also tells you that the length of the actual period of time that the Era / Age continues /covers is short. Even when at the start of the Era / Age,he is still “near” because he likened it to a season that period to a season.

Matt 24:32 isnt about seeing the signs and knowing the Era / Age is near. The signs previously mentioned in Matt 24 show you that you ARE IN IT ! He is making the point that once you are experiencing the special events that mark the Era AS SUCH,these are like the signs of summer,telling you that He is near...that He will bring it to an end. THEN 'Summer' will follow..the New World...a different season.


There are 2 seasons mentioned in Matt 24. the season of the Great Tribulation..and then the season of 'summer',which comes after the Great Tribulation has been bought to an end by Jesus Himself. While IN the Era / Age of the great tribulation,the signs within it tell you that the next season will follow BECAUSE Jesus will bring the current season / Era / Age to an end...thats WHY His is NEAR...to bring it to and end. But only after all the events within that Era have happened.

The purpose of knowing that you are in that special Era/Age,is that Jesus IS: NEAR AT THE DOORS..He is "near,at hand,nearby".

So can that special Age / Era drag on for decades,even a century ? Thats NOT "near,at hand,nearby".

The purpose of the signs is to tell you that you are in that Era/ Age...and the purpose of the Era / Age is to tell you that Jesus is: "near,at hand,nearby". The purpose of that Era is for Jesus to bring it to an end and bring the Kingdom to the earth.

Once in that Era / Age,we would KNOW Jesus is at hand..just like summer.


This confirms that Generation is the wrongly translated word to use for the real words of Era / Age.


“Generation” does not convey what Jesus was getting at in the verses leading up to Matt 24:34 where the mistranslated word is used. Generation means delay... and him NOT being near,that the time is NOT short,that He is NOT at hand,NOT nearby.


A season is short.


Its been nearly 100 years according to 'generation'..how is that near ??


Era /Age are the right words because when in that time period,Jesus IS nearby,close at hand.


Also,since the gospels didnt include Revelation,we know that the 2 witnesses are also part of the Great Tribulation,since they are in the “Lords Day”. They are part of the signs that Jesus is at the doors..that he is near. All the signs,including the early signs of Matt 24 are part of the indicator that Jesus is near. And since the 2 witnesses will be here,they will confirm that Jesus is near since them being here tells us that Jesus is now King.


Also,when Jesus said that he is near at the doors,what image is this evoking ?


If you are expecting a visitor to your home...and they are 'near at the door',how soon is it before they are knocking at your door to be invited into your home ? Not very long at all...in fact,they are NEAR. This is why Jesus chose this expression. When he gave this expression as an indicator,it was because people were familiar with visitors coming their home. If they had a path leading to their house and saw them close-by,they could say they are NEAR the door...soon to be arriving. We can be sure this is what Jesus was trying to get people to picture in their minds eye. When the events happen,these are the sign he is near.


I hope I haven't repeated myself to much in making the points Ive made. I think this whole subject of “generation” is most exciting...and is a total revelation to me...all because of using a Greek dictionary. One of the exciting things is that once in that Era / Age,because the signs tell you that you are in that special Era / Age,THIS IS A SIGN..that Jesus is nearby,at hand... “Like Summer is near” . Jesus will bring an end to the Era /Age of the Great Tribulation.


Ive never realized before that there are signs of the Great Tribulation..and if you were living in that time,you would know what all the events meant ..and that the Great Tribulation is in fact a SIGN that Jesus will bring it to an end...within a short period because he is near...which is what that Era / Age is...a sign that He is “near” and will bring the Kingdom to the earth.


“Summer” is coming SOON ..once we enter that exciting Era / Age which tells us it is near !!!

[truthseeker]

Ive never realized before that there are signs of the Great Tribulation..and if you were living in that time,you would know what all the events meant ..and that the Great Tribulation is in fact a SIGN that Jesus will bring it to an end...within a short period because he is near...which is what that Era / Age is...a sign that He is “near” and will bring the Kingdom to the earth.


“Summer” is coming SOON ..once we enter that exciting Era / Age which tells us it is near !!!

Wow Jahsdiciple talk about driving a point home- if I swung my hammer that many times trying to drive a nail, my elbow would be swollen and painful.:rolleyes:

I will state this; In the end or the beginning (summer) I think it will be the simplest explanations that allows people to GET IT.
I think your deep relentless meditations on this most critical subject could be bearing YOU some fruit this coming summer.

With admiration truthseeker!

PS May Jehovah bless your efforts!

[sir_chan]

Hi....

I have a question regarding something you said concerning the 2 witnesses. I don't want to sidetrack your post so I will try my best to tie it in.


Jahsdisciple Said:
Also,since the gospels didnt include Revelation,we know that the 2 witnesses are also part of the Great Tribulation,since they are in the “Lords Day”. They are part of the signs that Jesus is at the doors..that he is near. All the signs,including the early signs of Matt 24 are part of the indicator that Jesus is near. And since the 2 witnesses will be here,they will confirm that Jesus is near since them being here tells us that Jesus is now King.I bolded the part that I am referring to. Does the two witnesses actually tell us that Jesus is now king(Rev 11:15-17)? Jesus doesn't take power as king until AFTER the Great Tribulation, at the 7th trumpet being blown.

(Re 11:15-19) “. . .And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king."

It is during this trumpet blast that the gathering of the chosen ones occurs and are raised to heaven.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) . . .because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

(1Co 15:51-52) “. . .Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Since the last trumpet is Jesus taking power as King AND the gathering of the chosen ones, the two witnesses must have already been active for a considerable amount of time.

Doesn't the two witnesses share the same task as John the Baptizer did, proclaiming the coming kingdom of God. (Mt 3:2) “. . .saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”. . .”

[Jahsdisciple]

Wow Jahsdiciple talk about driving a point home- if I swung my hammer that many times trying to drive a nail, my elbow would be swollen and painful.:rolleyes:

I will state this; In the end or the beginning (summer) I think it will be the simplest explanations that allows people to GET IT.
I think your deep relentless meditations on this most critical subject could be bearing YOU some fruit this coming summer.

With admiration truthseeker!

PS May Jehovah bless your efforts!

Hi truthseeker,
Thanks for the words of encouragement !

I wanted to "hit the nail home" in as many ways as possible. "1914" is such a huge part of JW thinking,esp with the constant changing of "generation". All i had to do was look at a Greek dictionary. This is the most exciting thing ive discovered in the last 10 years being dedicated to Jah. I was never dedicated to Him because of 1914. I knew i would have a better life because of trying my best to follow His guidlines of love/life.

It baffles me that those in the GB have not looked at the same Greek dictionary,because i bought through it them. Jehovah makes it clear he uses imperfect / blind people because they try their best. I think he put the idea in the bible in such a way that He knew it would be seen the way it has been. Thats my personal thinking.

If 1914 was never "seen",then the massive preaching work would not have been acomplished..and the chosen remnent would not have been gathered..plus many,myself included,would not have had the best life possible now. So somehow Jah has been involved in the idea...or at least planting it knowing it would be used.

Can He foresee how people would run ahead because they want the end to come,for sickness and their death to not come ? Of course ! We all want a better life without pain and suffering. Jah foresaw this. the bible is written for His reasons and His way to accomplish what He knows needs to be done. What other way could this have happened ?

But at some point we have to grow up in powers of understanding and ask why "generation" keeps changing. Look at the original word Jesus uses and it all becomes clear.

[Anthony]

sir_chan;46766
(Re 11:15-19) “. . .And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king."

It is during this trumpet blast that the gathering of the chosen ones occurs and are raised to heaven.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) . . .because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

(1Co 15:51-52) “. . .Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”


Sir Chan, what can you make out of this?

This? Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl :)

Sorry couldn’t resist, anyway...
I know you post a lot regarding the timing of the last trumpet. What to you think as far as trumpets 1-7 being blow in chronological order?

And what to you think of the following response I received from an elder in reply to me telling him that they do happen in chronological order?



I guess, simply stated, I believe it is a mistake to assume the events signaled by these trumpet blasts happen in chronological order. While John of course, as a human, has to see the vision in an order, a close look at the prophesy indicates that the events themselves seem to happen at least somewhat concurrently. An example is the plagues on the "third" mentioned in the first four trumpet blasts, also again with the plague of the locusts. It makes sense that these trumpet blasts are each only signifying a different aspect of the total plagues on the "third". Additionally, the 1260 days is mentioned both in the 6th trumpet blast during the 2nd woe, and the 7th trumpet blast, showing that the events of these two trumpet blasts run parallel to each other, not sequentially.


Also as a side note as regards to "Generation" in todays webcast LaRouche said something about 75 years from now...referring to it as 3 generation's. So by his words a generation in 25 years long.

[Gilligan]

Hi....

I have a question,,,,

Me too,,,,Did you ever apologize to Sister E&E for calling her an "Imposter"?

[Jahsdisciple]

Hi....

I have a question regarding something you said concerning the 2 witnesses. I don't want to sidetrack your post so I will try my best to tie it in.

I bolded the part that I am referring to. Does the two witnesses actually tell us that Jesus is now king(Rev 11:15-17)? Jesus doesn't take power as king until AFTER the Great Tribulation, at the 7th trumpet being blown.

(Re 11:15-19) “. . .And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king."

It is during this trumpet blast that the gathering of the chosen ones occurs and are raised to heaven.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) . . .because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

(1Co 15:51-52) “. . .Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Since the last trumpet is Jesus taking power as King AND the gathering of the chosen ones, the two witnesses must have already been active for a considerable amount of time.

Doesn't the two witnesses share the same task as John the Baptizer did, proclaiming the coming kingdom of God. (Mt 3:2) “. . .saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”. . .”

Hi Sir Chan,
Like the signs of the last days in Matt 24,these might not be in order of time.
If you take a look at wachmans article about the 2 witnesses,it might make it clearer. Rev says that when satan was defeated and thrown down,THEN woe for the earth and sea.

So the GT begins with satan being thrown out of heaven because Jesus is NOW King..and there was no longer a place for him in heaven. The signs of Matt 24 tell us what has happened in heaven. Revelation adds to other things that will happen in the "Lords day" or period of time of the end.

This is something of my own conclusion,but Ive often wondered why Jesus ministry was 42 months long ? WHY that number ? Jesus as King designate had this amount of time for people to choose to see Him as that and have opportunity to be Kings with Jesus.

Jesus also said that "these would do greater things"..and i think he was refering to his brothers during the 42 months. This is so that people can choose whose side they are on. FORTY TWO months seems to match the time period of both ministries.

Jesus refered to people of the potential great crowd doing works of supporting "His Brothers" during the GT. This is because they will be here during the time of the 42 months preaching as their Lord did. We can support them in their work. They would be giving food at the proper time because Jesus will directly be telling them what food we need.

If Jah sent Moses to give signs so people could be given the chance to choose a new life,SURELY he would do no less when His son is King..and give these signs THROUGH those that would rule with his son. This is why i think JC said: "these would do greater things than these" and this was after

Jesus did miracles to prove he was King designate...but Jesus brothers would do greater things because Jesus would be king...and the later a much more important time. So it stands to reason that if there was a time period that covered His ministry while on earth,that once he was actual King of Jahs kingdom,that a similar period be used to tell people HE IS NOW RULING...the signs the 2 witnesses give will tell people who they represent.

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

It's great to see so many questioning 'traditional' interpretation of the passage in Matthew 24 using the word 'generation.'

Here is additional information I found in my digging. As I posted previously, the case for using the word race instead of generation was compelling, but I didn't find it really complete in the meaning it conveyed, so I started looking 'outside the box' again, as many of you are also doing.

Here's what I found:

Matthew 24:34 - "generation" - Procreation, the act of producing offspring. Webster's Dictionary: Genus - A class, kind (human race), or group marked by common characteristics or by one common characteristic; specifically, a category of biological classification ranking between the family and the species.

So Jesus could have been talking about the end of the reproductive age for humans, when many theologians have misinterpreted it to mean the first century generation only.

This would also support the idea of an 'age,' as some of you have been discussing.

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

Dear JD,

I come a bit late but I find that that thread is very interesting. Thanks for all the research you did and for the time it took you.

I have a few questions. As I'm not done reading the thread to the bottom line, I hope that I won't just repeat what others have already written.

1) You said : "This ALSO means that the generation also must be cut short because its used as a measure of time to say how long the GT continues."

If the GT and the "generation" have the same length of time and if the generation must be cut short, do Jesus' words in Matt24:29-31 make up also all the things that must take place before the generation passes away.

If the "generation" is cut short at the same time as the GT, then Jesus' words won't take place before the generation passes away because the latter would have been cut short earlier and before the sign of the Son of Man appears.

2) to be continued... Sorry, I'm exhausted. Tomorrow is another day. :D

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Jahsdisciple]

If the "generation" is cut short at the same time as the GT, then Jesus' words won't take place before the generation passes away because the latter would have been cut short earlier and before the sign of the Son of Man appears.

2) to be continued... Sorry, I'm exhausted. Tomorrow is another day. :D

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hi Brother Tuna ! ><((((º>
If I understand ,yes you are right.

The reason I said the above was just another piece of reasoning to prove 'generation' cant be the right word. If the GT is governed by its length,which is a generation long,then the generation has to be cut short as the GT is. This means the generation cant live out its full length because,as with the GT...its cut short.

We are close to 2014 which is 100 years since the supposed start of the GT. this has to mean that the 'generation' has to be nearly 100 years. BUT IT CANT BE..as the 100 year old generation would be cut short. If its nearly 100 years for the 'generation'...then how can that be "cut short".

Thats why Jesus did NOT have in mind that the GT would be governed by a length of time..IN THIS VERSE(because Revelation does gives it length,in my opinion). He is saying the Era / Age is marked by certain events. This tells you that you are in the special Era / Age.

When all the events have happened,then the Era / Age is over. And using your logic,if the period is governed by a 100 years and is THEN cut short,then some of the events wont happen..IF you govern it by an incorrect translation of a word.

The whole thing just doesnt make any sence when you use 'generation'..IT DOES when you use Era / Age...because thats what Jesus was getting at.

It was a special Era / Age marked by special events. When all the events had been completed,then it was over. When you saw those events,you knew you were in that special Era / Age. When Jesus said what He did in the gospels,he hadnt been given Revelation,so the length of the GT was unknown to Him.

Jesus disciples didnt ask about how long it would be,they asked what would it be marked by...what events.
Hope that makes sence !

Its gets all so ridiculous. Just look at the Greek word for goodness sake ! but unfortunatly,when you have a calculation that arrives at 1914,then somehow generation has to fit the calculation...or be changed to fit it...because its then is used to tell you how long the GT is.
Agape
Jahsdisiple

[LonelySheep]

Okay I am going to add my $0.02 worth.

Forgetting the semantics of the word, what could Jesus have meant?

One possible thought (and I apologise to anybody if this has already been mentioned) is that on his arrival; from the time he comes to Judge the world, the people alive at that time would live to see the conclusion of his judgement upon them.

Hence his judgement would not be over a long protracted period lasting nearly a century, but rather would be short and to the point. In fact so short, that there would not be enough time for the majority of the populace to die off, as what has happened if we are to believe that he came in 1914.

The scriptures in the Gospels where he discusses his arrival is all about the suddeness of it. So sudden that he likened it to a flashes of lightining, the days of Noah (an unexpecting world) and it would be sudden even to his own disciples (sleeping virgins etc). Time and time again Jesus in the gospels tells us that he will catch the world and most of us (ie professing christians) napping, when we should have been awake.

His arrival will startle the nations, and there will not be time or the inclanation for the world to continue with business as normal (holidaying, barbecues, partying, discussing the world series, putting up 'that extension', what the soccer scores are etc). In fact that time will be so short, that the majority living (ie the generation) will not NOT live out their natural lives and "....pass away...(Luke 21:32)

Those alive will be judged as they take their stand with Jesus or the world (ie the sheep and goats in Mth 25). Those that take their stand with Jesus and his brothes will become the GC.

[The Way]

Okay I am going to add my $0.02 worth.

Forgetting the semantics of the word, what could Jesus have meant?

One possible thought (and I apologise to anybody if this has already been mentioned) is that on his arrival; from the time he comes to Judge the world, the people alive at that time would live to see the conclusion of his judgement upon them.

Hence his judgement would not be over a long protracted period lasting nearly a century, but rather would be short and to the point. In fact so short, that there would not be enough time for the majority of the populace to die off, as what has happened if we are to believe that he came in 1914.

The scriptures in the Gospels where he discusses his arrival is all about the suddeness of it. So sudden that he likened it to a flashes of lightining, the days of Noah (an unexpecting world) and it would be sudden even to his own disciples (sleeping virgins etc). Time and time again Jesus in the gospels tells us that he will catch the world and most of us (ie professing christians) napping, when we should have been awake.

His arrival will startle the nations, and there will not be time or the inclanation for the world to continue with business as normal (holidaying, barbecues, partying, discussing the world series, putting up 'that extension', what the soccer scores are etc). In fact that time will be so short, that the majority living (ie the generation) will not NOT live out their natural lives and "....pass away...(Luke 21:32)


That would be a very reasonable, natural explanation. Ties in with the parallels of the days of Noah and the days of Jesus' ministry on earth and the events thereafter until 70 CE. Makes perfect sense to me.
The same people who get the final witness will also live to see the execution of the final judgment (many biblical precedents for this principle of God's justice). The days of the building and completion of the ark parallel the days of the completion of the Body of Christ. (See Rev.)

[Jahsdisciple]

Okay I am going to add my $0.02 worth.

Forgetting the semantics of the word, what could Jesus have meant?

One possible thought (and I apologise to anybody if this has already been mentioned) is that on his arrival; from the time he comes to Judge the world, the people alive at that time would live to see the conclusion of his judgement upon them.

Hence his judgement would not be over a long protracted period lasting nearly a century, but rather would be short and to the point. In fact so short, that there would not be enough time for the majority of the populace to die off, as what has happened if we are to believe that he came in 1914.

The scriptures in the Gospels where he discusses his arrival is all about the suddeness of it. So sudden that he likened it to a flashes of lightining, the days of Noah (an unexpecting world) and it would be sudden even to his own disciples (sleeping virgins etc). Time and time again Jesus in the gospels tells us that he will catch the world and most of us (ie professing christians) napping, when we should have been awake.

His arrival will startle the nations, and there will not be time or the inclanation for the world to continue with business as normal (holidaying, barbecues, partying, discussing the world series, putting up 'that extension', what the soccer scores are etc). In fact that time will be so short, that the majority living (ie the generation) will not NOT live out their natural lives and "....pass away...(Luke 21:32)

Those alive will be judged as they take their stand with Jesus or the world (ie the sheep and goats in Mth 25). Those that take their stand with Jesus and his brothes will become the GC.

Hi LonelySheep,
The red you have higlighted shows you are still a little hung up on the WT version of the word that is mistranslated as generation. I was also till i looked at the original word,then it all became clear.

Generation is conditional to a life time of some sort..that is,how long it will live...which is why the WTS keeps changing it. Its obviously not fitting where we are in time.

This is not what the original word AND what the context shows. Its about events that mark it as special...not how long a person/s lives. The disciples didnt ask about how long the presence would last...they asked for signs...events.

"By no means would the Era / Age pass away till all the things that needed to happen within it occured"..this is what Jesus was saying.

He even said,that when you saw certain events within that Era/ Age you could start to rejoice. Why ? Because these tell you the Age / Era was about to come to an end. Certain special events tell you the GT was about to end.

He didnt even imply that when a persons life span was of a certain length THIS would tell you that the Era was about to end. NO !

It was the events themselves that tell you the GT..Age /Era was about to end.

This means that the mis-translated word has nothing to do with the length of a term having to do with a persons life time.

It simply means that once all the events that needed to happen have occured..its over. When you are living in that time and have witnessed lots of significant events...there would be specific ones that tell you its about to end...and that has NOTHING to do with a persons life time or how long they might live.

When the events have happened in their completion..ITS OVER !

[Anthony]

Matthew Mark Luke

24 Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

13 As he was going out of the temple one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what sort of stones and what sort of buildings (of the temple)!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you behold these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

5 Later, as certain ones were speaking concerning the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that YOU are beholding, the days will come in which not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down.”

Above we have the disciples focusing on the temple (they seem to be impressed with it) and Jesus is informing them that regardless of how it appears to them at this time, that it will be destroyed.

Going on:

3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be

3 And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter and James and John and Andrew began to ask him privately: 4 “Tell us, When will these things be

7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be

Here we have the disciples very concern with what Jesus said about it being (as he put it) thrown down, so they are asking, “When will these things be” or to put another way “when will this happen”. I don’t know why it reads with the word “these” and with a plural “thing”. Much less why the following would be said as well:

and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?

and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”

and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”

From the previous verses there is no reason to say “these things” or ask about a “presence”. They simply were referring to the temple (which included all of it’s buildings), and then he was saying how it would be thrown down, destroyed.

As far as any “presence” of Jesus, he himself made it clear, that it was to occur “Immediately after the tribulation of those days”. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What was the tribulation and those days?

It was when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple. So the modern-day counterpart would be whatever proves to be the disgusting thing in our day (UN?) and whatever the holy place/temple prove to be. The disgusting thing has 42-months to trample the holy place/temple but because those that heed Jesus’ words to flee out, they won’t be part of the holy place/temple during that time, but instead be scattered. That is why he will have to at his appearance, “send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”

Now going on:

15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.

14“However, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.

20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains,

It is during this time that the real GT that we always speak about happens. The verses after fleeing to the mountains read; 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

So it seems that it doesn’t matter about whatever events take place these days other then seeing something going on that is relevant of the fact of what we are to catch sight of. Everything that happens prior to the standing in the holy place are just things that have to take place in order to bring the disgusting thing (UN? /8th king) into existence. Those events are not the GT, the GT occurs during its 42-month rule. The clock starts ticking on that rule when the trampling begins at some point after it is in place to the extent that we have already caught sight of it standing in what is the true holy place/temple of today.

So who cares about if it is generation or age or whatever length of time generation really refers to? The fact is that whatever that whole issue is people during that time won’t all pass away. That’s that, nothing more to it. It is not relevant to identifying or surviving anything.

[uglyandthin]

Matthew Mark Luke

24 Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

13 As he was going out of the temple one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what sort of stones and what sort of buildings (of the temple)!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you behold these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

5 Later, as certain ones were speaking concerning the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that YOU are beholding, the days will come in which not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down.”

Above we have the disciples focusing on the temple (they seem to be impressed with it) and Jesus is informing them that regardless of how it appears to them at this time, that it will be destroyed.

Going on:

3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be

3 And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter and James and John and Andrew began to ask him privately: 4 “Tell us, When will these things be

7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be

Here we have the disciples very concern with what Jesus said about it being (as he put it) thrown down, so they are asking, “When will these things be” or to put another way “when will this happen”. I don’t know why it reads with the word “these” and with a plural “thing”. Much less why the following would be said as well:

and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?

and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”

and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”

From the previous verses there is no reason to say “these things” or ask about a “presence”. They simply were referring to the temple (which included all of it’s buildings), and then he was saying how it would be thrown down, destroyed.

As far as any “presence” of Jesus, he himself made it clear, that it was to occur “Immediately after the tribulation of those days”. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What was the tribulation and those days?

It was when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalemand it’s temple. So the modern-day counterpart would bewhatever proves to be the disgusting thing in our day (UN?) and whatever the holy place/temple prove to be. The disgusting thing has 42-months to trample the holy place/temple but because those that heed Jesus’ words to flee out, they won’t be part of the holy place/temple during that time, but instead be scattered. That is why he will have to at his appearance, “send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”

Now going on:

15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.

14“However, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.

20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains,

It is during this time that the real GT that we always speak about happens. The verses after fleeing to the mountains read;17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

So it seems that it doesn’t matter about whatever events take place these days other then seeing something going on that is relevant of the fact of what we are to catch sight of. Everything that happens prior to the standing in the holy place are just things that have to take place in order to bring the disgusting thing (UN? /8th king) into existence. Those events are not the GT, the GT occurs during its 42-month rule. The clock starts ticking on that rule when the trampling begins at some point after it is in place to the extent that we have already caught sight of it standing in what is the true holy place/temple of today.

So who cares about if it isgeneration or age or whatever length of time generation really refers to? The fact is that whatever that whole issue is people during that time won’t all pass away. That’s that, nothing more to it. It is not relevant to identifying or surviving anything.

Hi Anthony:

I enjoyed your comment, but rather than being drawn to the meaning of generation I was drawn to the fact that it says that Jesus was leaving the Temple and that he explained that not a stone would be left upon a stone. It appears to me that this has prophetic meaning for our day. Jesus, after he does his final inspection on his former temple of the Watchtower (if that has not already happened) will just as has been recorded here, will be leaving the Temple of the Watchtower in preparation for it's destruction when not a stone will be left on a stone. That is a pretty ominous warning.

Frank

[Anthony]

Hi Anthony:

I enjoyed your comment, but rather than being drawn to the meaning of generation I was drawn to the fact that it says that Jesus was leaving the Temple and that he explained that not a stone would be left upon a stone. It appears to me that this has prophetic meaning for our day. Jesus, after he does his final inspection on his former temple of the Watchtower (if that has not already happened) will just as has been recorded here, will be leaving the Temple of the Watchtower in preparation for it's destruction when not a stone will be left on a stone. That is a pretty ominous warning.

Frank

Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple

As he was going out of the temple one of his disciples said to him:


It’s funny that you said that because I actually thought about underlining that about him leaving the temple, because I thought it was making a point somehow.

And when I put this together last night (really earlier this morning) I didn’t do it for the sake of having anything to do with generation, I just added that at the end just to make it fit on this thread. (thought I would feed to birds with one seed)

What I am really concern with knowing is; What is the true holy place/temple of today? What it means to flee from it? And what really will prove to be the disgusting thing and how it will stand in the holy place?

[Jahsdisciple]

So who cares about if it isgeneration or age or whatever length of time generation really refers to? The fact is that whatever that whole issue is people during that time won’t all pass away. That’s that, nothing more to it. It is not relevant to identifying or surviving anything.

You are missing the point..and your comment reveals this.

Generation has to be about people...because peoples life length are guaged by the term generation. They live a certain time...and this is called a generation.

An Age is not governed by time,at least not in this case because Jesus was refering to events. Its not till Revelation that any time period is mentioned in regards to the GT/Lords day..

"Age /Era " is not about people and how long they live..its about events...yet you say people wont pass away...and thats not what Jesus was getting at.

He was saying that all the events would happen...and that Era would by no means pass away till all the events he was talking about would happen.

You said"The fact is that whatever that whole issue is people during that time won’t all pass away"
Its not about people...and thats the problem with our background in "generation"...we keep thinking its about people..and its not !

The "whole issue" is that Jesus was giving events to look for,not how long any group would live.

[LonelySheep]

Hi JahDisciple, ironically that is exactly the point of my post - I didn't want to get drawn into the specific meaning of JUST A SINGLE WORD. The whole thrust of my post and as Anthony said in his recent post is that from the time Christ arrives our time is up. That is for us and the whole world.

Having said that I didn't want to get drawn into a specific argument over meaning of words, I'm going to contradict myself.

Generation as defined by STRONG:
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

Please note this word is used 31 times in the NT, and like you said (and as the definition shows) can refer to an era or a 'generation' in the conventional sense. So in each case the context would have to be considered.

With the above in mind I have some questions. Here is my first:

1. How does the context prove that it CANNOT mean mankind collectively? Here is my take:

The vernacular usage of the word ERA, means a time period and ANY time period has a beginning and an end. That is an in-escapable fact. So for example the ERA of BAROQUE music was from 1600-1750. Also, an ERA is defined by the people living in it. I will stand corrected, but I dont think you can talk of one, without the other. So again, using another analogy, if we talk about the generation (ERA) of BABY BOOMERS, we immediately infer two things. Firstly a specific time period (circa 1950, which agrees with your definition) and secondly the people born in that time period. Thus you cannot make the statement baby boomers, without implicitly meaning the time period AND the people of the time period (in this case the babies).

Bearing the above in mind, here are some other translations of Luke 21:32

"Positively, I say to you*, this generation [or, race] shall by no means pass away until all [things] happen - Analytical Literal Translation

Truly I tell you, this generation (those living at that definite period of time) will not perish and pass away until all has taken place - Amplified Bible.

You can be sure that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all of this takes place - Contempary English Version

So if we are to INSIST that the time period cannot mean the people then refute my logic and explain why these bible translations are incorrect.

I will also add to my earlier post with this thought:

Could Jesus also have meant that despite the seemingly likely hood of the demise of mankind because of the severity of conditions that will befall us, that he was giving a re-assurance that there would be survivors? Much in the same way, that he said in Matthew about the days having to be cut short otherwise no flesh would survive.

Well there you have it for the time being, I didn't want to go down this road because but you drew me in :p:p

I really want to keep an open mind on this and it is not my intention to slug this out with you as if we are two prize fighters trying to knock the other down.

My understanding of scripture is not sacrosanct and unless we are BOTH willing to test our own views and allow others to test them, the truth will never be discerned. So PLEASE lets not have any holy cows as far as our reasonings are concerned. Speaking for myself, but when we have invested a lot of time and energy reasoning on something we can become defensive over our views. Lets take Pauls counsel:


Rom 3:4 Never may that happen! But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, even as it is written."That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged."

The only thing I want to win is the TRUTH and not my personal view(s).

[arimatthewdavies]

jesus gave us an interesting scripture it goes something like this a wicked and perverse GENERATION will be seeking after a sigh and none will be given to it exept the sighn of johna.

here the word generation is given 2 distinct time markers [the time of jesus birth men seeking a sighn] until jesus death[sighn of johna] was about 33 years...
therefore in order to determine how long generation is we need to look for a begining marker and an ending marker, and then you can say how long the generation was. perhaps we could take a guess by takeing all the mentioned generations in the bible and then makeing an average, to see what other men called a generation. Also remember noahs generation was 500 years long! so asuming 1914 was the begining marker, anywere between 33 years and 500 could= this generation.
that pours ice water on a lot of peoples fires who use the bible scripture [our years are 70- 0r 80] to define the word generation,
my personal opinion of the time markers are 1914-untill the first plauge of revalation.

[Anthony]

What I am really concern with knowing is; What is the true holy place/temple of today? What it means to flee from it? And what really will prove to be the disgusting thing and how it will stand in the holy place?


doxsey55 - 3 Days Ago 02:41 AM
Rev. 20:6 says that the anointed are considered holy. The anointed are frequently spoken of as being "Holy Ones". But just as the true worship of Jehovah came to be VISIBLY represented by the temple, the true worship of these HOLY ONES, (HOLY "place"), has come to be associated with the tangible Watchtower organization. This is the modern day temple. Yet, this physical representation is not itself the Holy Place. The Holy Place is in association with the Holy Ones, and this is not physical. It is their standing with Jehovah and the service he has given them to do. So then, Matt. 24:15 asks us to discern the identity of the disgusting thing, and the Holy Place. This seems plain due to current events. The Holy Place is reserved for those who are Holy. Part of this position requires these ones to be ambassadors for Christ, taking the lead in pure worship. This could be tangibly seen as manifested by the organization doing Jehovah's will. But now, what if this place were breached by a presence that, in Jehovah's eyes, did not belong...a presence that would defile it's Holy Purpose and meaning? So contrary and unsuitable would this presence be, that the scriptures call it, disgusting. We are given an additional clue, when we are told, that this disgusting thing, causes desolation. That is an interesting word. If it is broken down with it's roots, it looks like this....de-solice-ation. That means (de)-against, (Solice)-comfort, (ation)-the act of causing. Hmmm, that would have the same meaning as causing "sighing and groaning". So the source of this "'sighing and groaning' (due to all the things being done in the midst of the City") may be directly connected to this disgusting thing standing where it ought not. Well, the City (New Jerusalem)=(Holy Place), should it become contaminated spiritually, would certainly cause sighing and groaning amidst those capable of discerning it's being trespassed by this intruder.
The Holy Place is reserved for anointed who are faithful, and in line to be sealed conquerers. Should this place be taken by unfaithful impostors, displacing the rightful occupants and causing desolation (sighing and groaning); would not Jehovah view this as a disgusting thing? This Holy Place was a gift from him to his beloved Sons. If you gave your child a brand new car, and then saw the local drunk driving it around while vomiting in it, would you not feel the same way when he called to you, "Hi Dad!"? Certainly recent developments make plain that the Holy Place in our time,... the leadership of God's people...has been breached by a counterfeit son. Instead of conducting God's people in the way of truth and love, there is hypocrisy, injustice, and the beating of God's true "faithful and discreet" ones.
It is then easier to discern what Jesus meant in verses 1-3. Yes, despite the impressive presence of these glorious feats of architecture, Jesus rightly says that the physical manifestations of worship are to be completely done away with. We stand on the cusp of a Government from the Heavens. These disciples naturally assumed that when Jesus described a throwing down of the temple, that he would be the means by which it would be cast down. It was natural for them to associate this act with Christ being present. So too today. We know naturally that the judgement of these wicked impostors will be at Christ's hand.
Concerning the meaning of generation, perhaps many viewpoints could be satisfied in the simplest and purest interpretation of Jesus' own words. "This generation (to generate means, as previously stated,, to be initiated, or born) will by no means pass away, until all things occur". Perhaps the new emergence of the the anointed as a distinct group of people, starting with the initial First Century ones, was the beginning of this group, age, race, with distinct traits of spirit and son-ship. After all, they would surely be distinct from the rest of mankind, and they had never existed before Jesus' words. He is telling us, simply, that once born, this group will not pass away until all the things foretold in Matt. ch24, are fulfilled. In saying that they will by no means pass off the scene until "all things occur, then doggonnit!...there were always anointed on the earth...from the time of Christ, until the end of the GT! Why can't we just take him at his word? Clearly, Jehovah in His wisdom, wants this group of unique human beings to witness the whole 2,000 years of human history; from Christ, straight through to the end. Doesn't that make sense? I mean, we are always told that their selection is based on an empathy with the human experience. I know I couldn't empathize too well with someone resurrected from the dark ages. Could you? Well, I know that this only answered your first question. Your second...How do we flee? Maybe you could look at my other post from today. I joined today, but my first post was about that very thing. Thanks for your time.

PS: Oh yeah, and I know all this makes more sense if you also realize that not all Christians were anointed...in the first century, nor today, nor in the 19 centuries in between. Jehovah is fully able to come up with the right number...not too many, not too few.

Anthony - 12 Hours Ago 05:53 AM

the true worship of these HOLY ONES, (HOLY "place"), has come to be associated with the tangible Watchtower organization. This is the modern day temple.

No this is not what the true holy place/temple of today is or will prove to be according to the scripture.
15 "Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,)


We are given an additional clue, when we are told, that this disgusting thing, causes desolation. That is an interesting word. If it is broken down with it's roots, it looks like this....de-solice-ation. That means (de)-against, (Solice)-comfort, (ation)-the act of causing. Hmmm, that would have the same meaning as causing "sighing and groaning".

"sighing and groaning" are you kidding me? Did the Roman army’s desolation of the temple back in 70 c.e. prove to be "sighing and groaning" or rather;

des·o·la·tion 3: devastation, ruin
dev·as·tate 1: to bring to ruin or desolation by violent action
ruin 3:a cause of destruction 4 a: the action of destroying, laying waste, or wrecking


The Holy Place is reserved for anointed who are faithful, and in line to be sealed conquerers. Should this place be taken by unfaithful impostors, displacing the rightful occupants and causing desolation (sighing and groaning); would not Jehovah view this as a disgusting thing?

The “disgusting thing” is not the GB or as you put it “unfaithful impostors” (I am assuming that is who you are referring to.)



Well, I know that this only answered your first question. Your second...How do we flee? Maybe you could look at my other post from today
.

comment deleted for another time

doxsey55 - 8 Hours Ago 09:44 AM
Wow Anthony, I'm sorry. I sure didn't mean to hurt your feelings. But if you look closer, I didn't say the holy place was the Organization. Really, I said the opposite...that the Holy Place was not located on earth or anywhere else, but it was a state of being in an approved relationship with Jehovah. I hope you can see that. I said that at times, those in the Holy Place have been in association with the Organization. I also said that the Holy place and the Organization, are not always harmonious.
Also, there is a difference between the two words, devastation and desolation. These differences are based upon the roots these words contain. Devastation usually goes hand-in-hand with its emotional effects on humanity. So the additional word added to this scriptural description is appropriate, as Jehovah decided, apparently, to include the devastational effect this destruction would cause within the human heart. Desolation means all that it's root words indicate.
As far as who the unfaithful impostors are, no one can accurately group or condemn based on a blanket identity. Jesus said at Matt. 24:5&24, that "false Christs" would arise and mislead many. Literally, this is translated, false anointed.
None of us can read hearts. We can not tell the true anointed from the false, without Jesus' guidance. He said, "by their fruits you will recognize those men". Therefore, he did want us to be able to discern who we should follow. So too, those unfaithful impostors will be recognized by their fruitage, as well as the fruitage of those who follow them. "A slave will not be greater than his Master"...according to this principle...if men are following these false anointed, their spiritual condition will be no better than these impostors. If they are following the true Christ, Jesus, their fruits will stand out in contrast.
And if I am overconfident, I appologize for the offense. Truly, I place my confidence and excitement only in the Scriptures, and would gladly yield to your thinking if it is based on God's word. I am most welcoming of anything you can help me with, if you would kindly include your scriptural thoughts and the scriptures that you support such views by.
Thank you, and again, I am really sorry if I offended you,
D55

Anthony - 4 Minutes Ago 06:34 PM
For the record you did not “hurt my feelings” or offend me. I don’t know why you thought so.

Anyway there is no need for me to debate something that is only a matter of yours/and my own opinion. I happen to think that the disgusting thing will do more than just cause some "sighing and groaning" within the holy place/temple.(Maybe you might care to give this a read http://e-watchman.com/jehovah/chapter-18-joel.html (mhtml:{7D84D731-99CE-472A-859E-101DBC58F7E5}mid://00000001/!x-usc:http://e-watchman.com/jehovah/chapter-18-joel.html))

The majority of rank and file JW’s at this point are fine with the WTS, they are not "sighing and groaning"

31 The prophets themselves actually prophesy in falsehood; and as for the priests, they go subduing according to their powers. And my own people have loved [it] that way; and what will YOU men do in the finale of it?”

11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

I will ask you this one question. You said; quote "He said, "by their fruits you will recognize those men". Therefore, he did want us to be able to discern who we should follow.' end quote

Tell me please, who out there should Jehovah's people be following at this time? Can you point to any one person or group of people that are displaying good fruits, but also that are in a position of leading those seeking Jehovah and Jesus ?

[FutureMan]

Matthew 24 [LITV]
15 Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), Dan. 11:31; 12:11
16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;

Most of the Bible translations render this particular passage as "the Holy place" and I guess this is where some confusion could set in.

Is it "a holy place" or "the Holy place"?

If we really look at the context, this was in relation to what both the Jewish community and the Jewish Christians viewed as "a" or "the" Holy place, and that was the in the vicinity of the Temple which resided in Jerusalem, in the area of Judea.

Today if we look at the figurative Temple, well it has now become a spiritual Temple made up of Jesus Christ and God's anointed ones (144,001)

So this is where the disgusting thing causing desolation will be standing in our time period today, I'm convinced of that.

[truthseeker]

doxsey55 - 3 Days Ago 02:41 AM
Rev. 20:6 says that the anointed are considered holy. The anointed are frequently spoken of as being "Holy Ones". But just as the true worship of Jehovah came to be VISIBLY represented by the temple, the true worship of these HOLY ONES, (HOLY "place"), has come to be associated with the tangible Watchtower organization. This is the modern day temple. Yet, this physical representation is not itself the Holy Place. The Holy Place is in association with the Holy Ones, and this is not physical. It is their standing with Jehovah and the service he has given them to do. So then, Matt. 24:15 asks us to discern the identity of the disgusting thing, and the Holy Place. This seems plain due to current events. The Holy Place is reserved for those who are Holy. Part of this position requires these ones to be ambassadors for Christ, taking the lead in pure worship. This could be tangibly seen as manifested by the organization doing Jehovah's will. But now, what if this place were breached by a presence that, in Jehovah's eyes, did not belong...a presence that would defile it's Holy Purpose and meaning? So contrary and unsuitable would this presence be, that the scriptures call it, disgusting. We are given an additional clue, when we are told, that this disgusting thing, causes desolation. That is an interesting word. If it is broken down with it's roots, it looks like this....de-solice-ation. That means (de)-against, (Solice)-comfort, (ation)-the act of causing. Hmmm, that would have the same meaning as causing "sighing and groaning". So the source of this "'sighing and groaning' (due to all the things being done in the midst of the City") may be directly connected to this disgusting thing standing where it ought not. Well, the City (New Jerusalem)=(Holy Place), should it become contaminated spiritually, would certainly cause sighing and groaning amidst those capable of discerning it's being trespassed by this intruder.
The Holy Place is reserved for anointed who are faithful, and in line to be sealed conquerers. Should this place be taken by unfaithful impostors, displacing the rightful occupants and causing desolation (sighing and groaning); would not Jehovah view this as a disgusting thing? This Holy Place was a gift from him to his beloved Sons. If you gave your child a brand new car, and then saw the local drunk driving it around while vomiting in it, would you not feel the same way when he called to you, "Hi Dad!"? Certainly recent developments make plain that the Holy Place in our time,... the leadership of God's people...has been breached by a counterfeit son. Instead of conducting God's people in the way of truth and love, there is hypocrisy, injustice, and the beating of God's true "faithful and discreet" ones.
It is then easier to discern what Jesus meant in verses 1-3. Yes, despite the impressive presence of these glorious feats of architecture, Jesus rightly says that the physical manifestations of worship are to be completely done away with. We stand on the cusp of a Government from the Heavens. These disciples naturally assumed that when Jesus described a throwing down of the temple, that he would be the means by which it would be cast down. It was natural for them to associate this act with Christ being present. So too today. We know naturally that the judgement of these wicked impostors will be at Christ's hand.
Concerning the meaning of generation, perhaps many viewpoints could be satisfied in the simplest and purest interpretation of Jesus' own words. "This generation (to generate means, as previously stated,, to be initiated, or born) will by no means pass away, until all things occur". Perhaps the new emergence of the the anointed as a distinct group of people, starting with the initial First Century ones, was the beginning of this group, age, race, with distinct traits of spirit and son-ship. After all, they would surely be distinct from the rest of mankind, and they had never existed before Jesus' words. He is telling us, simply, that once born, this group will not pass away until all the things foretold in Matt. ch24, are fulfilled. In saying that they will by no means pass off the scene until "all things occur, then doggonnit!...there were always anointed on the earth...from the time of Christ, until the end of the GT! Why can't we just take him at his word? Clearly, Jehovah in His wisdom, wants this group of unique human beings to witness the whole 2,000 years of human history; from Christ, straight through to the end. Doesn't that make sense? I mean, we are always told that their selection is based on an empathy with the human experience. I know I couldn't empathize too well with someone resurrected from the dark ages. Could you? Well, I know that this only answered your first question. Your second...How do we flee? Maybe you could look at my other post from today. I joined today, but my first post was about that very thing. Thanks for your time.

PS: Oh yeah, and I know all this makes more sense if you also realize that not all Christians were anointed...in the first century, nor today, nor in the 19 centuries in between. Jehovah is fully able to come up with the right number...not too many, not too few.

Anthony - 12 Hours Ago 05:53 AM


No this is not what the true holy place/temple of today is or will prove to be according to the scripture.
15 "Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,)



"sighing and groaning" are you kidding me? Did the Roman army’s desolation of the temple back in 70 c.e. prove to be "sighing and groaning" or rather;

des·o·la·tion 3: devastation, ruin
dev·as·tate 1: to bring to ruin or desolation by violent action
ruin 3:a cause of destruction 4 a: the action of destroying, laying waste, or wrecking



The “disgusting thing” is not the GB or as you put it “unfaithful impostors” (I am assuming that is who you are referring to.)
.

comment deleted for another time

doxsey55 - 8 Hours Ago 09:44 AM
Wow Anthony, I'm sorry. I sure didn't mean to hurt your feelings. But if you look closer, I didn't say the holy place was the Organization. Really, I said the opposite...that the Holy Place was not located on earth or anywhere else, but it was a state of being in an approved relationship with Jehovah. I hope you can see that. I said that at times, those in the Holy Place have been in association with the Organization. I also said that the Holy place and the Organization, are not always harmonious.
Also, there is a difference between the two words, devastation and desolation. These differences are based upon the roots these words contain. Devastation usually goes hand-in-hand with its emotional effects on humanity. So the additional word added to this scriptural description is appropriate, as Jehovah decided, apparently, to include the devastational effect this destruction would cause within the human heart. Desolation means all that it's root words indicate.
As far as who the unfaithful impostors are, no one can accurately group or condemn based on a blanket identity. Jesus said at Matt. 24:5&24, that "false Christs" would arise and mislead many. Literally, this is translated, false anointed.
None of us can read hearts. We can not tell the true anointed from the false, without Jesus' guidance. He said, "by their fruits you will recognize those men". Therefore, he did want us to be able to discern who we should follow. So too, those unfaithful impostors will be recognized by their fruitage, as well as the fruitage of those who follow them. "A slave will not be greater than his Master"...according to this principle...if men are following these false anointed, their spiritual condition will be no better than these impostors. If they are following the true Christ, Jesus, their fruits will stand out in contrast.
And if I am overconfident, I appologize for the offense. Truly, I place my confidence and excitement only in the Scriptures, and would gladly yield to your thinking if it is based on God's word. I am most welcoming of anything you can help me with, if you would kindly include your scriptural thoughts and the scriptures that you support such views by.
Thank you, and again, I am really sorry if I offended you,
D55

Anthony - 4 Minutes Ago 06:34 PM
For the record you did not “hurt my feelings” or offend me. I don’t know why you thought so. ???

Anyway there is no need for me to debate something that is only a matter of yours/and my own opinion. I happen to think that the disgusting thing will do more than just cause some "sighing and groaning" within the holy place/temple.(Maybe you might care to give this a read http://e-watchman.com/jehovah/chapter-18-joel.html (mhtml:{7D84D731-99CE-472A-859E-101DBC58F7E5}mid://00000001/!x-usc:http://e-watchman.com/jehovah/chapter-18-joel.html))

The majority of rank and file JW’s at this point are fine with the WTS, they are not "sighing and groaning"

31 The prophets themselves actually prophesy in falsehood; and as for the priests, they go subduing according to their powers. And my own people have loved [it] that way; and what will YOU men do in the finale of it?”

11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

I will ask you this one question. You said; quote "He said, "by their fruits you will recognize those men". Therefore, he did want us to be able to discern who we should follow.' end quote

Tell me please, who out there should Jehovah's people be following at this time? Can you point to any one person or group of people that are displaying good fruits, but also that are in a position of leading those seeking Jehovah and Jesus ?

Anthony this is because you come across like a real big (Let’s Butt Heads)!!! Sometimes!!! Not all the time!!!! But guess what? Your not the first one to favor the (lets butt heads) approach and you will not be the last.
Acts 15:
36 Now after some days Paul said to Bar′na·bas: “Above all things, let us return and visit the brothers in every one of the cities in which we published the word of Jehovah to see how they are.” 37 For his part, Bar′na·bas was determined to take along also John, who was called Mark. 38 But Paul did not think it proper to be taking this one along with them, seeing that he had departed from them from Pam·phyl′i·a and had not gone with them to the work. 39 At this there occurred a sharp burst of anger, so that they separated from each other;and Bar′na·bas took Mark along and sailed away to Cy′prus. 40 Paul selected Silas and went off after he had been entrusted by the brothers to the undeserved kindness of Jehovah.

One sheep “head butted” the other sheep! But it still hurts even though were sheep!!

Big Brian:mad: aka truthseeker

[Anthony]

Anthony this is because you come across like a real big (Let’s Butt Heads)!!! Sometimes!!! Not all the time!!!! But guess what? Your not the first one to favor the (lets butt heads) approach and you will not be the last.
Acts 15:
36 Now after some days Paul said to Bar′na·bas: “Above all things, let us return and visit the brothers in every one of the cities in which we published the word of Jehovah to see how they are.” 37 For his part, Bar′na·bas was determined to take along also John, who was called Mark. 38 But Paul did not think it proper to be taking this one along with them, seeing that he had departed from them from Pam·phyl′i·a and had not gone with them to the work. 39 At this there occurred a sharp burst of anger, so that they separated from each other;and Bar′na·bas took Mark along and sailed away to Cy′prus. 40 Paul selected Silas and went off after he had been entrusted by the brothers to the undeserved kindness of Jehovah.

One sheep “head butted” the other sheep! But it still hurts even though were sheep!!

Big Brian:mad: aka truthseeker

Yeah, pretty cool there, speaking for someone else. Also pretty cool how you can make such a comment but can’t give an example of anyway in my post to them or others that I so called am trying to buttheads with anyone. Also pretty cool that you can take the time to write on a post but can’t add anything of value to it.

Go play with your kitty and try letting others speak their own thoughts.:p

[truthseeker]

Yeah, pretty cool there, speaking for someone else. Also pretty cool how you can make such a comment but can’t give an example of anyway in my post to them or others that I so called am trying to buttheads with anyone. Also pretty cool that you can take the time to write on a post but can’t add anything of value to it.

Go play with your kitty and try letting others speak their own thoughts.:p

LOL - Love the sheep butting heads - Nice touch for a (butt head):p

Ps dont bring my kitty cat into the picture or the fur will fly:eek:

Agape truthseeker

[Utuna]

Dear Anthony,

You said : "sighing and groaning" are you kidding me? Did the Roman army’s desolation of the temple back in 70 c.e. prove to be "sighing and groaning" or rather;

des·o·la·tion 3: devastation, ruin
dev·as·tate 1: to bring to ruin or desolation by violent action
ruin 3:a cause of destruction 4 a: the action of destroying, laying waste, or wrecking"

I agree !!!

Is it sensible to base a religious teaching upon plays on words in English ? Maybe there's a more interesting rendering in Lingala or in Catalá !!!! lol We must be careful not to let our deepest certainties take the lead over common sense. Our faith can be a trap, at times, unfortunately....

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Jinnvisible]

Okay I am going to add my $0.02 worth.

Forgetting the semantics of the word, what could Jesus have meant?

One possible thought (and I apologise to anybody if this has already been mentioned) is that on his arrival; from the time he comes to Judge the world, the people alive at that time would live to see the conclusion of his judgement upon them.

I`m not really certain Jesus was applying his 'generation' statement to what we might describe as the second fulfillment.

Although I believe the overall events of the first century do have an element of repetition.

[LonelySheep]

Okay, I'm back from the district convention on Sunday and boy where they some stand out points. Notable was the one that two indivuals told me to 'look out' for concerning the term generation. Infact an elder texted me just before the talk and told me to pay special attention.

So was it worth it?


Well, they 'clarified' the meaning of the term. Joseph and his brothers were taken as examples. Although having a wide age gap between the youngest and oldest the bible speaks of 'that generation dying out'. Hence even though the oldest brothers died first the overlapping of the lives between ALL the brothers (youngest to oldest) was considered as a generation.

So, from the above we can see overlapping lifespans can be viewed biblical as a generation. However in connection with Jesus' words (and this brothers is the punchline) there can only be TWO generations. Yes the term generation is only limited to TWO overlapping lifespans!! So the overlapping has a definite beginning and a definite end. The 'beginning' generation were those anoited that were alive or witnessed events around 1914 and the 'second' generation or overlapping generation were those that become anointed whilst the first anointed group are alive.

Well considering that in my congregation we just had a newly annoited sister who probably has just turned 30 (if that) still leaves A LOT of time before the final whistle is blown for this system.

On the basis of this 'new light' I had a chat with a sister who is her late 40's early 50's and asked if she was ready for another 50yrs or so preaching. She didn't understand what I meant, so after I explained the ramifications to her, she was somewhat taken back. I said to her, its not my thoughts but it is the logical conclusion demanded according to the new light. Her response was quite revealing. First she said she couldn't take another year much less 50 in this system and then said something along the lines of "well the Society has been wrong before, so I hope they are now".

What this experience has taught me is rather than take a confrontational view with the brothers trying to prove in the FIRST INSTANCE that scripturally the Society is off tack, be a bit more subtle. When you hold up the logic of the Society's own teachings to their faces and they realise the ramifications of what is being said - that my brothers gives them pause to think.

The sister I mentioned earlier was adamant the system could not go on. But the next time I come across a witness with that viewpoint, my response will be, 'why not?' It could be reasoned what is another 50 or 60 years to Jehovah on top of the 100 that have already gone? Why, if we are to do the maths and using the often quoted 1000years/day ratio, a total of 150 years is mere seconds, if that. It could also be reasoned that extending the period would be very much like the brothers in 1914 who thought there reward was about to realised only to find that a further harvest had to be brought in. So we should not be selfish but be thankful that Jehovah would allow millions more to be saved. So that is blow 2. The next punch is that we can 'see the wisdom of the FDS' because another 50 years would allow for the one government that has not been tried by mankind, which is a global totalitarian government. And since the issue of Universal Soverignty is all about government it is only fitting that Jehovah allows enough time for this to happen. How wise our FDS is!! Besides, is this not predicted in Revelation with the Kings of the Earth relinquishing their own sovereignty? Finally the knockout punch - with the 'new light' brothers and sisters around the 40 year age mark can have the PRIVILEGE of pioneering right into their graves but they will never live to see the GT or Armageddon and will get old, wrinkly and die; also that our present generation (and I use the word generation in a very colloquial sense) is nothing special.

Now when the penny drops, look at their faces.

Hopefully any that are sincere at heart could be comforted by what we have gleaned, but caution is advised as Michah stated -


Mic 7:5 Do not put YOUR faith in a companion. Do not put YOUR trust in a confidential friend. From her who is lying in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.
Mic 7:6 For a son is despising a father; a daughter is rising up against her mother; a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man's enemies are the men of his household.

[Jahsdisciple]

So with this new version of generation,if the life spans overlap,this means that from 1914,there could be 160 years if 2 annointed live to be 80 years ?

Show me another bible example of where this new idea about generation applies ? It must be consistant ! If it applies in one instance,it must in another...somewhere.

Even if someone doesnt agree that the original word is Age or Era...why isnt this word used sometimes...that is,the word is only translated as generation and its NEVER considered to be Age or Era ? Why this fixation with it having to be about a calculation when no other example in the bible gives a precedent for it ?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by LonelySheep

Okay, I'm back from the district convention on Sunday and boy where they some stand out points. Notable was the one that two indivuals told me to 'look out' for concerning the term generation. Infact an elder texted me just before the talk and told me to pay special attention.

So was it worth it?

Well, they 'clarified' the meaning of the term. Joseph and his brothers were taken as examples. Although having a wide age gap between the youngest and oldest the bible speaks of 'that generation dying out'. Hence even though the oldest brothers died first the overlapping of the lives between ALL the brothers (youngest to oldest) was considered as a generation.

So, from the above we can see overlapping lifespans can be viewed biblical as a generation. However in connection with Jesus' words (and this brothers is the punchline) there can only be TWO generations. Yes the term generation is only limited to TWO overlapping lifespans!! So the overlapping has a definite beginning and a definite end. The 'beginning' generation were those anoited that were alive or witnessed events around 1914 and the 'second' generation or overlapping generation were those that become anointed whilst the first anointed group are alive.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoLi700ees

[truthseeker]

Matt24:34...This Generation will by no means pass away.

This expression has been talked about a lot so I decided to look at the “Interlinear Bible” and the Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionary in the hope that I might get a better understanding of this sentence...and especially the word “GENERATION”

What was revealed is simply a revelation !

Here is how it reads in the Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.”

What was Jesus trying to convey here ? To get the point we have to look at the context and the meaning of the word 'generation' The root meaning of generation : Word number 1074..by implication..an AGE.

So what is an “AGE” ? “ Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature; EG"we live in a litigious age"

There are 2 parts to this.
1/ As this AGE,Its an historic period or ERA
2/ that it would be marked as such as “having some distinctive features”

The historic period or Age or Era had some distinctive features that made it possible to KNOW its was that Historic period mentioned by Jesus.

So,an AGE or ERA can be marked by certain features. Jesus was saying that the Great tribulation is an AGE or ERA of history marked by certain events. THE CONTEXT shows that Jesus is talking about the events of the AGE or ERA of history known as the last days. Verse 34 is surrounded by those events,that as the definition above explains, is marked by some distinctive feature(s).

This is most certainly the case with the Last Days. ALL the things mentioned surrounding V34 are clear indicators that those living at the time were IN / experiencing the Last Days.

Whats so special about this comment by Jesus, is that he was saying that all the features that would make up that AGE, would not only identify it as that time...but also ALL the events would happen. Thats what V34,35 are saying.

V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.”

Jesus was trying to convey that the AGE or ERA of his presence would be marked by certain events. Then to make a point about how ALL the events mentioned (plus the ones to be mentioned later in Revelation) will come true,he says : ALL the “distinctive features that mark the Generation,AGE ,ERA of history to be such... will happen. PLUS,to then back this thought up,says,”the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away”

ALL the events that would make it “ an era of history having some distinctive feature “ would all happen. Without them ALL happening,how can we say that it is a “ an age / era of history having some distinctive feature” ? We cant ! So in order for this to be true,ALL the events Jesus mentions would have to happen.

It cant very well be an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..if some of the features were missing...then it wouldn't be that “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..which is why Jesus then says what he did in V35. ALL of my words will come true !

If Jesus wanted the expression “generation” to have another meaning,he would have emphasized it with V35. In V35 He was doubly making a point because there was so much to happen in this period of time. Especially when we consider Revelation was yet to be given.

Was Jesus using the word generation / AGE / ERA as some part of a calculation intended for some future use ? Was he even hinting as to second meaning of the word 'generation” ? NO. He didnt even use a word with any ambiguity. He was saying that the period with all the signs was an historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..

It was a special AGE / ERA with special features which are mentioned in the surrounding verses of Matthew 24.. The signs proved the AGE / ERA was special..Historic..and the AGE that Jesus had spoken about was upon those living at that time because they could refer to all the special features happening around them.

Emphasizing a point.

In the bible verse numbers are put there to help us find a spot in scripture. These 2 verses,34,35 are ONE point Jesus is making.

In the first part of his sentence starting V34 he is saying that the Age or Era would be significant...because he uses a word that means that. He is saying its filled with Historical events that mark it as such. The context also proves this AND that the Age or Era would not pass away till all the things He is speaking about that mark it as such happen.

THEN to back-up this thought, He adds a guarantee in V35. That heaven and earth would pass away before any of his words don't come true about the just mentioned : “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”

What point was he trying to make ? Its clear !

He wasn't emphasizing anything except what the historic period would contain....” distinctive features” and that all of them would happen as he said they would...THUS marking it as an “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature”

Another scriptural example of the term generation being used.

Often to understand the meaning of a word,we can go to other examples of the very same word being used in another setting by the same person. This way it becomes clear what its true meaning is. Another use clarifies its intention and why someone like Jesus would use it.

Matt 12:39 “A wicked and adulterous generation,keeps on seeking for a sign”

What was Jesus saying here ? That the people in general from this AGE or ERA of history were wicked and adulterous in their attitude. And in using the term 'generation' he was saying that it was an AGE, “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature” and that “distinctive feature” was their wicked and adulterous attitude in wanting more signs without appreciating that the ones they had already seen were telling them who Jesus truly was.

HE DID NOT MEAN ,that the generation of that time would live for 70,40,20 years and prove they were adulterous. No ! He meant that the people of that AGE or ERA ..those living at THAT time...were marked by a“distinctive feature”... that is:being wicked and adulterous.

The generation was any and all who were alive during the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry...which means the word “generation” is NOT age specific..it has nothing to do with anyones age. This supports the Greek meaning which is talking about an historic time period.

THOSE LIVING AT THAT TIME no matter what their age...because they were witnessing the miracles of Jesus and missing the point were wicked and adulterous . Their generation..Historic AGE..ERA was marked by this one distinctive feature. And, its very interesting that Jesus miracles were in a very Historic period of 3.5 years.

The generation, historic AGE / ERA he was speaking about in relation to being wicked and adulterous, were those in the period of 3.5 years...thats the period the miracles were happening.

So,that Historic AGE / ERA of history covered the time period the miracles happened...3.5 years.

In using this term “generation”..which also means AGE or ERA of history...,he wasn't asking his readers or listeners to start guessing how long that wicked and adulterous generation,Historic AGE or ERA were going to live. OR that it had started at some mathematically calculated time/starting point. Those of that AGE / ERA were of any number of years ..20-100 years . THAT ISNT THE POINT !

In saying this “generation”,he was saying :

“A wicked and adulterous generation,always seeking signs”

“A wicked and adulterous (historic) AGE,always seeking signs”

“A wicked and adulterous ( historic ) ERA,always seeking signs”

These 3 expressions are the same thing because thats what the word generation means,implies...Thats its meaning !

He DIDNT say that you had to be of a certain age to be part of the “ wicked and adulterous generation “ If you had the distinctive feature of being wicked and adulterous you were part of that historic Age or Era marked by the feature of being a wicked and adulterous generation.

Your age had nothing to do with it !

In using the word he used,Jesus showed it was an attitude that marked you..NOT YOUR AGE !

In using this example of the same word being used in a different context,we clearly understand what Jesus was getting at. Using a Greek dictionary also helps us to let go of a single meaning that is an ENGLISH understanding of the word Generation ,when we need to see Jesus was saying something totally different by looking at what the Greek word is and its meaning.

Context and the same word being used in another setting is proof of this.

In both cases,He was talking about: An historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature.
A generation / AGE / ERA of history having some distinctive feature.

This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of people of a certain age.

Matt 24:34

This understanding now allows us to see what the verse...what Jesus is getting at.

Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.”

...in no way will this historic AGE pass away until all these things have occurred.”

...in no way will this historic ERA pass away until all these things have occurred.”

The very things that made this period unique by its many “distinctive features”, would all come true because its those features that make it unique.

Jesus was in the middle of describing so many unique things that would mark the “Lords Day” All the signs/events made it an “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features” And this would include most things mentioned in Revelation.

ALL these combined make up the total of Jesus presence. V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.” ALL of those words would come true ! ALL of the features would happen !

All together,those signs /events make that generation..”Historic AGE..ERA of history having some distinctive feature”

NO OTHER time period in History will be marked by such “distinctive features”..because no other period with all the “distinctive features” would tell us we are living in the last days...that Jesus would be ruling in heaven as King of the Kingdom.

What could be a more unique generation,historic age,era of history having some “distinctive features”... than those living in those days,signaling that Jesus is now the enthroned King ? NONE !

This is why 34 and 35 are important in connection with this special time.

All those of any age living in that historic AGE / ERA would know by the things surrounding them that they are in the last days..AND also that the Generation / AGE / ERA of the last days would come to a completion by all the signs/events happening in their total. That the new world would come after that. ALL of Jesus words would be fulfilled including the END of this generation,historic AGE / ERA of the Last Days. This is of great comfort to those living in that time. If we were living in such a time,we would be happy when its over...since, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. Thats not how it is today. But if we found ourselves in such a time,Jesus words telling us that the Great Tribulation was going to have a definite end,that it would be short,helps us to endure.

You wouldnt have to concern yourself about your age and how long you were going to live. If you were alive in that AGE / ERA,you could be certain that it was going to be short: Jesus said “Unless those days were cut short”

Jesus Likened this period to a season. No-one wonders if many that saw the start of the season summer, were going to die because of it extended nature. A season is short. Very few people die in Summer because of its duration compared to those that live to see the end of it.

When you see the signs of summer,you know you are in the season of summer,because summer doesn't start on one particular day. All the things that happen in summer happen...and then summer finishes. It passes. BUT you can be sure that everything that has to happen in summer WILL happen because thats what happens in Summer. Matt 24:32

And this is exactly what Jesus is saying about the Last Days. He is describing an historic AGE or ERA that once you saw the events,you would know you were in it. The events tell you so. Its like a season and you don't wonder if its going to be a long drawn out period. ITS SHORT.

It only gets complicated when we use the word 'generation' in the ENGLISH sense...and this isn't the word Jesus had in mind..OR EVEN USED ! Researching the meaning shows a totally different idea. The same word used by Jesus in Matt 12:39 proves what the word means and what Jesus intended to say.

The ENGLISH meaning of generation is NOT the same as the Greek...and not the word Jesus was using.

Its NOT a life span..its an Historic AGE or ERA of history having some distinctive features”..and its short.

Those living in that time are witnessing the generation / AGE / ERA of history ,no matter their age...and all the things Jesus said would happen in that short period of time would ALL happen because thats what makes it an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features”

This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of a certain age.

This Generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History...will by no means pass away...

So now that we know that Jesus was talking about an Historic AGE or ERA,this expression “Generation” means something else. Its NOT talking about a group of people born at a certain time, OR that a certain group has to be a certain age as a adult...that they might be 70,40,20 years old..etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,to infitar'dum tedi'ardus (infinity of tedium)

It has nothing to do with people of any particular age. Jesus was talking about the Historic AGE / ERA itself MARKED by certain features..and that Historic AGE / ERA of history would not pass away till all the things He said would happen in it,were completed.

We cant say a person of a certain age has earthquakes..or is standing in a holy place..or that one person because of their age is like the days of Noah. No!..these are the events of the generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History that tells us that we are living in the last days. We can say... an Historic AGE / ERA in history has earthquakes,that someone would stand in a holy place during that time,or that time is like the days of Noah.

No person or persons can have those signs upon them. So we see that its the signs / events that ARE the Historic AGE / ERA.. Its NOT about those of any living age...or having been born at some particular time,so they would be of a certain age when Jesus began ruling and saw the start of the signs of the last days..

ITS THE EVENTS within an historic period THAT ARE THE GENERATION / HISTORIC AGE / ERA..not the people living at that time who are of a certain living age.

The signs / events are the HISTORIC AGE / ERA /generation . They are one and the same thing because of it being an: “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features.”

The Historic Period is marked by distinctive features...the distinctive features mark the Historic Period.

Jesus was saying:
“That generation / Historic Age / Era of History would not pass away till all the things that I have said would be included in it,that make it significant and an Historic AGE..WILL happen. When all these things have taken place,it is over. When you are alive in this time,you will know you are living in this special Historic AGE or ERA because you see all the things I have spoken...so you will know I'm in Heaven ruling as King. As Jehovah's appointed King,I will bring an end to this Historic AGE / ERA..so take comfort,it will be “cut short”

Heaven and earth will pass away before any of my words fail...this is my guarantee to you that all my words,including your deliverance,WILL COME TRUE “
Greetings JD

I thought I would let you know, your “generation” theory or detailed explanation is quoted in it’s entirety on another web site .. http://jwsstraighttalk.squarespace.com/ (http://jwsstraighttalk.squarespace.com/) giving credit to the author…

It’s on the right column of tabs in the article “A Generation that Deceived the World” I believe they quote you at the very end of the mini book along with another “fellow” who postulates the Generation is in the negative sense..

Interesting thing about this “fellows” article is that he released it in 2007. About 9 months before the Watchtower changed there view in the Feb 2008 W on the “the generation”

Any ways just thought I would let you know..

truthseeker

[truthseeker]

Greetings JD

I thought I would let you know, your “generation” theory or detailed explanation is quoted in it’s entirety on another web site .. http://jwsstraighttalk.squarespace.com/ (http://jwsstraighttalk.squarespace.com/) giving credit to the author…

It’s on the right column of tabs in the article “A Generation that Deceived the World” I believe they quote you at the very end of the mini book along with another “fellow” who postulates the Generation is in the negative sense..

Interesting thing about this “fellows” article is that he released it in 2007. About 9 months before the Watchtower changed there view in the Feb 2008 W on the “the generation”

Any ways just thought I would let you know..

truthseeker

I forgot to add that I found the article “ A Generation that Deceived the World” exceedingly refreshing and thought provoking…

Just when you think a dead horse can’t be beat anymore… Wow the horse still has legs…

[Jahsdisciple]

Howdy Truthseeker,
Thanks for the info. It took me back to one of the most exciting things Ive researched. Ive been dedicated for a long time..and a JW for a long time. I found it hard to believe that something so obvious,had not beed seen...well,to me anyway. I have to admit,it took me a while to let go of "1914",but it cant be right if "generation" is wrong...and the Greek menaing is very clear. I also think that Jehovah allowed this misunderstanding to happen,so the annointed in modern times could be gathered. How else could there have been the "urgency" that was in the early days of the Bible students ? He allowed it and the work we see from JWs has its roots in 1914.

Thankfully,my reasons for my dedication were never about 1914. When people make a big deal about it,i think its because they want the New World when they are ready for it and not when Jehovah has all issues surrounding "God and Bad" are resolved. I look at world events...and it heading towards the biggest collapse of a worldwide pollitical system ever in history ! This HAD to be seen...and its consequences. Jehovah could have said "this and this will happen because i know good and bad"..but who would have believed such a thing could result from not having Jehovahs knowledge of good and bad ? When it does fall,many will starve to death,with resulting pestilences and many other things because this world depends on money and business to supply our needs.

Cities are edifices of ignorance. When money fails with the political system,what will they be good for ? They will become deserts. People have forgotton how to grow their own food and DEPEND on the system to supply EVERYTHING. So when it goes,there will be anarchy because people will not know how to even get the basics of life without a TV ad telling them..

And only by seeing it,will Jehovah be proved right...that He knew good and bad all along. This is far more important an issue than "1914". When these related Legal issues are concluded,the end will come AFTER Jesus Brothers/The 2 witnesses explain world events and their relation to these issues. It will be a very interesting and wonderful time...though the world will be in chaos. And for good reason. They didnt listen to Jehovah and His wisdom of what is truly good and bad.

[truthseeker]

Howdy Truthseeker,
Thanks for the info. It took me back to one of the most exciting things Ive researched. Ive been dedicated for a long time..and a JW for a long time. I found it hard to believe that something so obvious,had not beed seen...well,to me anyway. I have to admit,it took me a while to let go of "1914",but it cant be right if "generation" is wrong...and the Greek menaing is very clear. I also think that Jehovah allowed this misunderstanding to happen,so the annointed in modern times could be gathered. How else could there have been the "urgency" that was in the early days of the Bible students ? He allowed it and the work we see from JWs has its roots in 1914.

Thankfully,my reasons for my dedication were never about 1914. When people make a big deal about it,i think its because they want the New World when they are ready for it and not when Jehovah has all issues surrounding "God and Bad" are resolved. I look at world events...and it heading towards the biggest collapse of a worldwide pollitical system ever in history ! This HAD to be seen...and its consequences. Jehovah could have said "this and this will happen because i know good and bad"..but who would have believed such a thing could result from not having Jehovahs knowledge of good and bad ? When it does fall,many will starve to death,with resulting pestilences and many other things because this world depends on money and business to supply our needs.

Cities are edifices of ignorance. When money fails with the political system,what will they be good for ? They will become deserts. People have forgotton how to grow their own food and DEPEND on the system to supply EVERYTHING. So when it goes,there will be anarchy because people will not know how to even get the basics of life without a TV ad telling them..

And only by seeing it,will Jehovah be proved right...that He knew good and bad all along. This is far more important an issue than "1914". When these related Legal issues are concluded,the end will come AFTER Jesus Brothers/The 2 witnesses explain world events and their relation to these issues. It will be a very interesting and wonderful time...though the world will be in chaos. And for good reason. They didnt listen to Jehovah and His wisdom of what is truly good and bad.
JD

You and I have the same spiritual heritage in common; we speak the same “Organizational” language, mine was from birth my first memories are hand in hand with my mother distributing magazines.

But I ask you JD would the Jehovah you know and his Son be accessories to a vast deception, stumbling untold tens of thousands or millions, our grand maker could never be held accountable for such atrocities never…

I just ask you to reconsider the “company line” that Jehovah allowed it .. I have heard that excuse all my life, that concept makes Jehovah and his Son deceitful building false hopes in the hearts of wide eyed truthseekers and then pulling the rug out from under there feet…

I do not buy it!!!!!

Jeremiah complained that Jehovah had tricked him; he decided he would no longer speak about his God. But did Jehovah trick him really? No of coarse not; The word of Jehovah became like a “burning fire” and he could not resist it Jehovah was with him like a terrible mighty one compelling him, beckoning him, in the end he could not contain himself he Jeremiah let lose with the condemnation regarding the infidelity against Jehovah..

[greggdanielm]

I was trying to explain this to a close friend of mine last night. I started off by saying, “I know you don't believe the same as I do, about Jesus, and who he is. But, think about this.”

Here is God Almighty, having had no beginning, no end, always existed. He decides he will create others like himself. He creates another, exactly like himself. The only difference is that this created individual does not contain the power of life within himself. He receives that power from his father (creator). (Jn 5:19, 26) Then, the two of them, the father and first created son, begin to create others like themselves. They are similar to the father and son except they have been created by two, not one. That is why Jesus is considered to be the “first born” or prototype. There is no other like him. He is the perfect reflection of his father. (Jn 14:9) He is given life within himself, after he proves his faithfulness, even to death.

Everything that was created, was for the son. They worked side by side as partners. The first born was to inherit what was the fathers by right. Just as today, everything your father owns, is rightfully his. He gives it to whom he chooses. (Jn 16:15) Jesus/Michael was to inherit the creation from his father, Jehovah. But, one of the others became a liar, a slanderer. He became jealous of his brother. When he found out that he would not get any of the inheritance, he decided to destroy it all. That is his purpose, to leave nothing to inherit. This is the same lesson we learn of Jacob and Esau. (Ge 25:27) The one despised the inheritance, where the other loved it and desired it. (Ge 25:34)

Satan's plan is to destroy the entire universe, everything that has been created, just so his brother cannot have it. That has been his goal from the time soon after he realized he would not have any part of the inheritance. There is still the lie and slander of Jehovah's name to be avenged, right to the end. That is why he will be released from the abyss at the end of the thousand years. A final test of the challenge given to Jehovah. (Job 1:7-11)

Like a wild and crazy person, he is willing to take everything with him to destruction. Like the mass murderer and evil individual he is, he will destroy as much as he can, and commit suicide in the process. (Rev 20:10)

Hello, Wow for an idea not really in the scriptures it is an incredible one. And matches my ideas of the reality. What I find incorrect is this…“He creates another, exactly like himself. The only difference is that this created individual does not contain the power of life within himself.” There is no reason to believe that the pre-human Christ was exactly like Jehovah, and not having power of life within himself would make him lesser or not exactly the same. ‘He said he is going his way to the father, because the father is greater than I am.’
Also the pre-human Christ is a creation and even if he is a really great prototype (Wonderful way to explain it.) However a prototype of creation is still a creation, and that implies less than the person named Jehovah as the original and was not created.
Thanks Gregg

[jehovahisgod]

Matt24:34...This Generation will by no means pass away. This expression has been talked about a lot so I decided to look at the “Interlinear Bible” and the Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionary in the hope that I might get a better understanding of this sentence...and especially the word “GENERATION” What was revealed is simply a revelation ! Here is how it reads in the Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.” What was Jesus trying to convey here ? To get the point we have to look at the context and the meaning of the word 'generation' The root meaning of generation : Word number 1074..by implication..an AGE. So what is an “AGE” ? “ Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature; EG"we live in a litigious age" There are 2 parts to this.1/ As this AGE,Its an historic period or ERA2/ that it would be marked as such as “having some distinctive features” The historic period or Age or Era had some distinctive features that made it possible to KNOW its was that Historic period mentioned by Jesus. So,an AGE or ERA can be marked by certain features. Jesus was saying that the Great tribulation is an AGE or ERA of history marked by certain events. THE CONTEXT shows that Jesus is talking about the events of the AGE or ERA of history known as the last days. Verse 34 is surrounded by those events,that as the definition above explains, is marked by some distinctive feature(s). This is most certainly the case with the Last Days. ALL the things mentioned surrounding V34 are clear indicators that those living at the time were IN / experiencing the Last Days. Whats so special about this comment by Jesus, is that he was saying that all the features that would make up that AGE, would not only identify it as that time...but also ALL the events would happen. Thats what V34,35 are saying. V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.” Jesus was trying to convey that the AGE or ERA of his presence would be marked by certain events. Then to make a point about how ALL the events mentioned (plus the ones to be mentioned later in Revelation) will come true,he says : ALL the “distinctive features that mark the Generation,AGE ,ERA of history to be such... will happen. PLUS,to then back this thought up,says,”the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away” ALL the events that would make it “ an era of history having some distinctive feature “ would all happen. Without them ALL happening,how can we say that it is a “ an age / era of history having some distinctive feature” ? We cant ! So in order for this to be true,ALL the events Jesus mentions would have to happen. It cant very well be an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..if some of the features were missing...then it wouldn't be that “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “..which is why Jesus then says what he did in V35. ALL of my words will come true ! If Jesus wanted the expression “generation” to have another meaning,he would have emphasized it with V35. In V35 He was doubly making a point because there was so much to happen in this period of time. Especially when we consider Revelation was yet to be given. Was Jesus using the word generation / AGE / ERA as some part of a calculation intended for some future use ? Was he even hinting as to second meaning of the word 'generation” ? NO. He didnt even use a word with any ambiguity. He was saying that the period with all the signs was an historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature “.. It was a special AGE / ERA with special features which are mentioned in the surrounding verses of Matthew 24.. The signs proved the AGE / ERA was special..Historic..and the AGE that Jesus had spoken about was upon those living at that time because they could refer to all the special features happening around them. Emphasizing a point. In the bible verse numbers are put there to help us find a spot in scripture. These 2 verses,34,35 are ONE point Jesus is making. In the first part of his sentence starting V34 he is saying that the Age or Era would be significant...because he uses a word that means that. He is saying its filled with Historical events that mark it as such. The context also proves this AND that the Age or Era would not pass away till all the things He is speaking about that mark it as such happen. THEN to back-up this thought, He adds a guarantee in V35. That heaven and earth would pass away before any of his words don't come true about the just mentioned : “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature” What point was he trying to make ? Its clear ! He wasn't emphasizing anything except what the historic period would contain....” distinctive features” and that all of them would happen as he said they would...THUS marking it as an “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature” Another scriptural example of the term generation being used. Often to understand the meaning of a word,we can go to other examples of the very same word being used in another setting by the same person. This way it becomes clear what its true meaning is. Another use clarifies its intention and why someone like Jesus would use it. Matt 12:39 “A wicked and adulterous generation,keeps on seeking for a sign” What was Jesus saying here ? That the people in general from this AGE or ERA of history were wicked and adulterous in their attitude. And in using the term 'generation' he was saying that it was an AGE, “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature” and that “distinctive feature” was their wicked and adulterous attitude in wanting more signs without appreciating that the ones they had already seen were telling them who Jesus truly was. HE DID NOT MEAN ,that the generation of that time would live for 70,40,20 years and prove they were adulterous. No ! He meant that the people of that AGE or ERA ..those living at THAT time...were marked by a“distinctive feature”... that is:being wicked and adulterous. The generation was any and all who were alive during the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry...which means the word “generation” is NOT age specific..it has nothing to do with anyones age. This supports the Greek meaning which is talking about an historic time period. THOSE LIVING AT THAT TIME no matter what their age...because they were witnessing the miracles of Jesus and missing the point were wicked and adulterous . Their generation..Historic AGE..ERA was marked by this one distinctive feature. And, its very interesting that Jesus miracles were in a very Historic period of 3.5 years. The generation, historic AGE / ERA he was speaking about in relation to being wicked and adulterous, were those in the period of 3.5 years...thats the period the miracles were happening. So,that Historic AGE / ERA of history covered the time period the miracles happened...3.5 years. In using this term “generation”..which also means AGE or ERA of history...,he wasn't asking his readers or listeners to start guessing how long that wicked and adulterous generation,Historic AGE or ERA were going to live. OR that it had started at some mathematically calculated time/starting point. Those of that AGE / ERA were of any number of years ..20-100 years . THAT ISNT THE POINT ! In saying this “generation”,he was saying : “A wicked and adulterous generation,always seeking signs” “A wicked and adulterous (historic) AGE,always seeking signs” “A wicked and adulterous ( historic ) ERA,always seeking signs” These 3 expressions are the same thing because thats what the word generation means,implies...Thats its meaning ! He DIDNT say that you had to be of a certain age to be part of the “ wicked and adulterous generation “ If you had the distinctive feature of being wicked and adulterous you were part of that historic Age or Era marked by the feature of being a wicked and adulterous generation. Your age had nothing to do with it ! In using the word he used,Jesus showed it was an attitude that marked you..NOT YOUR AGE ! In using this example of the same word being used in a different context,we clearly understand what Jesus was getting at. Using a Greek dictionary also helps us to let go of a single meaning that is an ENGLISH understanding of the word Generation ,when we need to see Jesus was saying something totally different by looking at what the Greek word is and its meaning. Context and the same word being used in another setting is proof of this. In both cases,He was talking about: An historic period: an era of history having some distinctive feature.A generation / AGE / ERA of history having some distinctive feature. This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of people of a certain age. Matt 24:34 This understanding now allows us to see what the verse...what Jesus is getting at. Interlinear Bible. “Truly i say to you,in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.” ...in no way will this historic AGE pass away until all these things have occurred.” ...in no way will this historic ERA pass away until all these things have occurred.” The very things that made this period unique by its many “distinctive features”, would all come true because its those features that make it unique. Jesus was in the middle of describing so many unique things that would mark the “Lords Day” All the signs/events made it an “historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features” And this would include most things mentioned in Revelation. ALL these combined make up the total of Jesus presence. V35 “the heaven and the earth will pass away,but my words will not at all pass away.” ALL of those words would come true ! ALL of the features would happen ! All together,those signs /events make that generation..”Historic AGE..ERA of history having some distinctive feature” NO OTHER time period in History will be marked by such “distinctive features”..because no other period with all the “distinctive features” would tell us we are living in the last days...that Jesus would be ruling in heaven as King of the Kingdom. What could be a more unique generation,historic age,era of history having some “distinctive features”... than those living in those days,signaling that Jesus is now the enthroned King ? NONE ! This is why 34 and 35 are important in connection with this special time. All those of any age living in that historic AGE / ERA would know by the things surrounding them that they are in the last days..AND also that the Generation / AGE / ERA of the last days would come to a completion by all the signs/events happening in their total. That the new world would come after that. ALL of Jesus words would be fulfilled including the END of this generation,historic AGE / ERA of the Last Days. This is of great comfort to those living in that time. If we were living in such a time,we would be happy when its over...since, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved. Thats not how it is today. But if we found ourselves in such a time,Jesus words telling us that the Great Tribulation was going to have a definite end,that it would be short,helps us to endure. You wouldnt have to concern yourself about your age and how long you were going to live. If you were alive in that AGE / ERA,you could be certain that it was going to be short: Jesus said “Unless those days were cut short” Jesus Likened this period to a season. No-one wonders if many that saw the start of the season summer, were going to die because of it extended nature. A season is short. Very few people die in Summer because of its duration compared to those that live to see the end of it. When you see the signs of summer,you know you are in the season of summer,because summer doesn't start on one particular day. All the things that happen in summer happen...and then summer finishes. It passes. BUT you can be sure that everything that has to happen in summer WILL happen because thats what happens in Summer. Matt 24:32 And this is exactly what Jesus is saying about the Last Days. He is describing an historic AGE or ERA that once you saw the events,you would know you were in it. The events tell you so. Its like a season and you don't wonder if its going to be a long drawn out period. ITS SHORT. It only gets complicated when we use the word 'generation' in the ENGLISH sense...and this isn't the word Jesus had in mind..OR EVEN USED ! Researching the meaning shows a totally different idea. The same word used by Jesus in Matt 12:39 proves what the word means and what Jesus intended to say. The ENGLISH meaning of generation is NOT the same as the Greek...and not the word Jesus was using. Its NOT a life span..its an Historic AGE or ERA of history having some distinctive features”..and its short. Those living in that time are witnessing the generation / AGE / ERA of history ,no matter their age...and all the things Jesus said would happen in that short period of time would ALL happen because thats what makes it an “ historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features” This period is marked by historic features NOT the passage of time by a certain group of a certain age. This Generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History...will by no means pass away... So now that we know that Jesus was talking about an Historic AGE or ERA,this expression “Generation” means something else. Its NOT talking about a group of people born at a certain time, OR that a certain group has to be a certain age as a adult...that they might be 70,40,20 years old..etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,to infitar'dum tedi'ardus (infinity of tedium) It has nothing to do with people of any particular age. Jesus was talking about the Historic AGE / ERA itself MARKED by certain features..and that Historic AGE / ERA of history would not pass away till all the things He said would happen in it,were completed. We cant say a person of a certain age has earthquakes..or is standing in a holy place..or that one person because of their age is like the days of Noah. No!..these are the events of the generation / Historic AGE / ERA of History that tells us that we are living in the last days. We can say... an Historic AGE / ERA in history has earthquakes,that someone would stand in a holy place during that time,or that time is like the days of Noah. No person or persons can have those signs upon them. So we see that its the signs / events that ARE the Historic AGE / ERA.. Its NOT about those of any living age...or having been born at some particular time,so they would be of a certain age when Jesus began ruling and saw the start of the signs of the last days.. ITS THE EVENTS within an historic period THAT ARE THE GENERATION / HISTORIC AGE / ERA..not the people living at that time who are of a certain living age. The signs / events are the HISTORIC AGE / ERA /generation . They are one and the same thing because of it being an: “Historic period: an era of history having some distinctive features.” The Historic Period is marked by distinctive features...the distinctive features mark the Historic Period. Jesus was saying:“That generation / Historic Age / Era of History would not pass away till all the things that I have said would be included in it,that make it significant and an Historic AGE..WILL happen. When all these things have taken place,it is over. When you are alive in this time,you will know you are living in this special Historic AGE or ERA because you see all the things I have spoken...so you will know I'm in Heaven ruling as King. As Jehovah's appointed King,I will bring an end to this Historic AGE / ERA..so take comfort,it will be “cut short” Heaven and earth will pass away before any of my words fail...this is my guarantee to you that all my words,including your deliverance,WILL COME TRUE “ it is truely a shame how people try to establish definate time periods within the bible, so much incredability has come to so many religeions who tried.. the word genereration in the bible means simply an aproxamate time period were certain sighn ocur,,, not the lifespan of 1 generation of a human being,,,while it is a good thing to translate the bible from one language to another with acuracy. its plain dumb to elaborate on what it may mean beyond the actual text of the bible! let us use the new world translations john 1/1 as a prime example.and the word was a god, sorry charlie take the darned A out of that verse, the original manuscripts do not say a god! this has been just another fuel used by other religeions to bash jehovahs wittnesses! but its the fault of the society for again adding just a little extra to what was already suficient in the first place! just like generation was explained to mean 1 human lifespan from 1914 till 70 or 80 years. perhaps a better indicator to were we are in revelation would be the definate trackable date of 1918 what happened on that date? a hugh meteror shower over the eqator it was termed the day the stars fell, and their are countless indonesian acounts that tell of screaming devils beating on doors and cursing people with a deadly plauge(spanish influenza) which killed 1/3 of earths population! is it not strange that the bible says 1/3 of the stars of heaven were draged by the dragon? and 1/3 of people died? in my book thats good enogh to say 1918 was the revelation mentioned event.. from that date onward till today revelation bowels have been poured out 1 by 1 and we now live precariously close to the star called wormwood that kills another 1/3 of earths population. I know everyone wants to hope that jesus will come back and save us, but the nasty little truth is the bible is usually right when it says something bad will happen first, dont count on a rapture before the revelation stuff happens.. oh well how did i get off the word generation? yes I think the devil made me do it....