The Conspiracy Of Silence Continues

[Administration]

A timely commentary responding to the latest legal developments involving the Watchtower organization and its mishandling of child molestation has now been published and is available for your consideration.

The Conspiracy of Silence Continues (http://e-watchman.com/)

[Shibboleth]

There are scumbags in every religion, ours included.

I have a sad experience that someday I may relate on this DB about something that happened about 12 years ago in a congregation I went to. Made me stop and think real hard about how things are handled.

[Jinnvisible]

There is the case of courageous Mike Moss, who was repeatedly sexualy assualted as a minor by an elder, within the local Kingdom Hall site. When a television journalist approached one of the elder`s about the mishandling of the case the bullish elder complained that he was being harrased ! he was the victim !

The guy is apparently so delicate that even asking him a question about the possiblity of a mistake will lead to trauma. Although he didn`t loook very delicate, he looked like he was going to `lay one on` the tv guy.

[Candace]

Thanks for another timely commentary Watchman. I have been reading news articles since yesterday about the settlements, and it just sickens me that these victims are being victimized all over again by the gag-order enforcement. The WTS completely contradicts their advice for the victims of abuse by doing this, as you pointed out in your commentary.

Thanks also for providing the scriptural encouragement all victims of abuse need. The scriptures you cited show us that Jehovah truly does care about the lowly and afflicted ones.

[Viking]

sorry, when i click onto the link I am not guided to the new commentary.

is it already posted?

[Jeshurun]

sorry, when i click onto the link I am not guided to the new commentary.

is it already posted?[/b]

Yes Viking, it comes up on the main page of the e-W site.

Thanks for the commentary, Robert. It seems like an all-time low for the Watchtower, but I have a feeling it gets worse from here.

[watchman]

It seems like an all-time low for the Watchtower, but I have a feeling it gets worse from here.[/b]

Yes, I think so too.

By the way, we posted the new commentary on the front of e-watchman because the site lost some ground on the search engine rankings due in part, I believe, because we removed the information that used to be on the home page of e-watchman and placed it on the forum. I liked the cleaner look of the redesigned homepage but e-watchman plunged back into search engine sheol as a result. (For example, when googling the keyword "Jehovah's Witnesses" e-watchman comes up on page 7 or 8. That's not too terribly bad, but considering for a brief period last year it came up on the front page...not so good) So, I felt I needed to get some keyword-rich relevant info back on the front page for the search engines to spider.

[Eli's Foe]

Thankyou for addressing this sensitive matter once again Watchman. The indignation you express must be supported by every thinking footstep follower of Christ and his Father Jehovah. The action taken by the WTS is indefensible in the extreme.

I only wish more Brothers and Sisters would listen and understand what is happening. Accordingly if you can do anything to bring the site on to the first page of the main search engines, I whole heartedly support you.

EF

[Viking]

sorry, I cant find the new commentary.

is someone so kind to paste and copy it and send it to me as pm.

thank you.

[Candace]

sorry, I cant find the new commentary.

is someone so kind to paste and copy it and send it to me as pm.

thank you.[/b]

Hi Viking,

I sent you a copy in a pm. I found the commentary here:

http://e-watchman.com/

If the links in the commentary are not live, then you will need to go to the above page so you can click on the links. It's right there on the front page of the E-Watchman site. You'll see it has a picture of a woman with someone's hand covering her mouth.

[Sketch]

hate to play devil's advocate again, but here goes....

Why do people take the payouts if they want "justice" ?? I mean, the gag order is in conjunction with the payout? why not take them all the way to court, and get the press coverage?

I can see how some - even a lot (of the victims) would want this to just go away so they can get on with their lives - but then why take the WTS to court in the first place? why DEMAND justice, only to cop a plea deal for the money? why do "they" start something but don't see it to its completion?

All (or at least most) of us here see what the WTS is doing and are disgusted with the attitude they have decided to front re: the child sex abuse issue. and ALL of us want justice to be done. The point of bringing a lawsuit (as I see it) is to make the WTS accountable for its actions... yet, most people are giving them an "out" by accepting money (and the gag order that comes with it) and giving the WTS some "plausibe deniability". It just doesn't seem right to me...

/end devil's advocate.

[watchman]

hate to play devil's advocate again, but here goes....

Why do people take the payouts if they want "justice" ?? I mean, the gag order is in conjunction with the payout? why not take them all the way to court, and get the press coverage?[/b]

I would guess that a determining factor has to do with the fact that the lawyers working for the plaintiffs are not really in the justice business; but rather, in the money making business. We can hardly expect a lawyer with a 30 to 50% stake in any damages awarded to advise their clients to go the long haul of a court trial and possibly end up losing. The "take the money and run" approach usually trumps having a day in court. And of course, the defendants' lawyers know that too, which is why they offered the cash. It's a win-win and lose-lose deal either way you look at it.

Botttom line: There will be no true justice until heavenly Judge actually lowers the gavel.

[watchman]

sorry, I cant find the new commentary.

is someone so kind to paste and copy it and send it to me as pm.

thank you.[/b]

'Earth to Viking....earth to Viking...come in... come in... Can you read me? Viking, the commentary is on the front page of e-watchman...Hello...can you read me? Viking...pssst....I am not sure if this mic is on....' :icon_rolleyes:

[watchman]

Thankyou for addressing this sensitive matter once again Watchman. The indignation you express must be supported by every thinking footstep follower of Christ and his Father Jehovah. The action taken by the WTS is indefensible in the extreme.

I only wish more Brothers and Sisters would listen and understand what is happening. Accordingly if you can do anything to bring the site on to the first page of the main search engines, I whole heartedly support you.

EF[/b]

Search engine algorithims can be a fickle thing. I just checked e-w's status on Yahoo and it has a front page listing under the keywords "Watchtower Society." And page 3-4 on "Jehovah's Witnesses." So, we are getting a regular stream of fresh traffic. :ban_dance01: :ban_dance02:

For those interested, the main e-w site receives about 1,000 unique visitors per day, equal, roughly, to 10 congregations. The radio site has about 400 regular listeners. Judging by emails that I have received over the years there are many JW's that are long time readers but who prefer to stay in the shadows. But I think as word gets about about stuff like the WT's latest backroom lawyering that more and more JW's are going to become receptive to the idea of a future day of reckoning for the Society with Jehovah.

I am glad we cleared out a lot of the XJW's that had come to dominate the board. Hopefully, now we have a place that JW's can feel more comfortable if that want to stop lurking and participate in some of the discussions.

Watchman

[DoubtingThomas]

These last two reply's by Sketch and Watchman really do sum up this entire matter of these legal cases. It really is all about back room lawyering, not justice. Justice for the victims won't come until the Supreme Judge delivers justice and punishment to the perpetrators. So to continue on with Sketch playing devil's advocate, I will do the same thing by saying that perhaps the WTBTS is doing the right thing by paying the alleged victims some money. These payouts in civil cases always require silence by both parties in our legal system. None of this is about justice. It is just legal wrangling. No amount of money could truly compensate these child victims of sexual molestation anyway.

My question is this: Do we really want to see the WTBTS change it's two witness policy? Is that really sound? And if we change this two witness policy (which is based on scripture) for molestation cases (which some have suggested we do), do we make the new policy also apply to other judicial matters?

I think not!

If we did, could you imagine how many false accusations of adultery from one unhappy spouse against another would come forward?

I think the scriptural principle in God's Word of having two witnesses in judicial matters is a sound one myself. Then if two different victims come forward, you have two witnesses.

DT

[Viking]

viking to earth hello,

maybe that I am blind or mad or something else, but on my screen I cant find the link. There are only some fotos there:
the upper foto with the globe and the pyramid
the foto with the 2 priests
the special talk foto
and the foto " a new covenant.

I use firefox mozilla browser and really - there is only the link to the latest commentary - the special talk

cordially
George

[watchman]

viking to earth hello,

maybe that I am blind or mad or something else, but on my screen I cant find the link. There are only some fotos there:
the upper foto with the globe and the pyramid
the foto with the 2 priests
the special talk foto
and the foto " a new covenant.

I use firefox mozilla browser and really - there is only the link to the latest commentary - the special talk

cordially
George[/b]

Ah, that explains it. Your browser is using a cached page. I don't usually use Mozilla but you need to find out how to delete your stored web pages so the browser is forced to display a fresh page. On Internet Explorer you just go into Internet Options. I am sure Mozzilla has a similar feature, I just can't tell you exactly how to do it. But just opening and closing the browser won't always do it. Or you culd try using a different browser. I guess I had better have Timothy post a link to the article to avoid this problem. Sorry for the confusion.

[Nash]

Hi folks.

Excellent commentary! I thought that it was very well written and uses excellent logic and reasoning.

I do have a question (forgive my ignorance): If there are gag orders in effect, how is it that we have come to be aware of these gag orders in the first place? Doesn't knowledge of the gag orders negate the actual effect of the gag orders?

Nash

[Berean]

viking to earth hello,

maybe that I am blind or mad or something else, but on my screen I cant find the link. There are only some fotos there:
the upper foto with the globe and the pyramid
the foto with the 2 priests
the special talk foto
and the foto " a new covenant.

I use firefox mozilla browser and really - there is only the link to the latest commentary - the special talk

cordially
George[/b]
Try the key combination Ctrl+F5, that should do a clean refresh of the page.

[Sketch]

My question is this: Do we really want to see the WTBTS change it's two witness policy? Is that really sound? And if we change this two witness policy (which is based on scripture) for molestation cases (which some have suggested we do), do we make the new policy also apply to other judicial matters?[/b]

how about using EVIDENCE... your spouse cheated? show me proof. you were molested? show me proof. you were cheated in a deal? show me proof? just like the justice system is supposed to work now... The problem with the justice system NOW, is that an accusation is pretty much the same as a conviction...

[juffowup]

how about using EVIDENCE... your spouse cheated? show me proof. you were molested? show me proof. you were cheated in a deal? show me proof? just like the justice system is supposed to work now... The problem with the justice system NOW, is that an accusation is pretty much the same as a conviction...[/b]

Just what would "evidence" of molestation be? And who would be analyzing this evidence? A body of untrained, potential biased, unaccountable elders? How about this: if there has been accusation of an actual crime committed, we turn it over to the authorities that have been granted the sword by Jehovah to investigate crimes, who have expertise on this, and can bring a measure of justice, if required. Adultry is not a crime, molesting a child is. Violating a written contract is not a crime, murdering someone is. It is a pretty bright dividing line, and therefore useful, in my opinion. Let the congregation deal with matters of morality, and let the worldy instruments of justice deal with matters of criminal activity. If a brother or sister is convicted in a court of law of murder or child molestation, disfellowship them at this time.

[Jinnvisible]

My question is this: Do we really want to see the WTBTS change it's two witness policy? Is that really sound? And if we change this two witness policy (which is based on scripture) for molestation cases (which some have suggested we do), do we make the new policy also apply to other judicial matters?

I think not!

If we did, could you imagine how many false accusations of adultery from one unhappy spouse against another would come forward?[/b]

Hi Doubting Thomas,

Watchtower policy, Watchtower Shmolicy,

The two witness principle In the Hebrew scriptures is to do with the mozaic law.

The two witness principle In the Greek scriptures has a slightly different context from the one in the Hebrew scriptures because guilt is already established here and the Two witnesses here (Greek script.) are witnesses of repentance.

As the Christian congregation is no longer under the mozaic (Hebrew) law and the Greek counsel pertains not to guilt but repentance then it requires using the additional searching through which is also indicated in scripture.

So as you indicate it is not exactly a question of throwing out the two witness principle. However the way you apply the principle `is` the policy.

Hense your statement mentioned a `Two witness policy` you are combining two entirely separate elements here. There is

(1) a two witness bible principle.

(2) a Watchtower policy of implimentation.

There is really no (3) i.e. A `Watchtower Two witness policy` Or if there is it is of little consequence. Only that which is afforded it by way of not considereing the `Thorough searching through` biblical counsel, which is mentioned. If the is a (3) it should be the "Watchtower thorough searching through policy" With consideration to the 2wit principle.

So you keep (1) and Change (2). Yet, if the will is not there, - injustice.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't think God's people should be influenced by decisions made by mans imperfect worldy courts juffowup. Too often guilty criminals are set free on technicalities, and innocent men are convicted. It has been estimated that around 10% of the men and women in prison are truly innocent of any crime by several different authorities. And we all know many have gotten away with crimes and not punished. So I don't think we should be letting Satans world decide our judicial cases in the congregation.

DT

[DoubtingThomas]

Hi Sketch. The problem with evidence in child molestation cases is that it usually is not there even when a crime has been perpetuated. I do think Jinnvisible has a good point though. Those deciding these cases in the congregation (the elders) should just use common sense, and ask themselves questions when there is a lack of two witnesses. They should ask themselves when examining the evidence: Is there a reason for a false accusation? Is a child custody case involved? Could the child (if only 2 or 3) have been coached? is the child believable? Is the accused believable?

DT

[Berean]

Is there a reason for a false accusation? Is a child custody case involved? Could the child (if only 2 or 3) have been coached? is the child believable? Is the accused believable?[/b]
That's the thing: there is no way elders could possibly answer all those questions. You need experts for that: psychologists, police detectives, youth workers, government officials... so it's best to just hand such a case over to the secular authorities and put the people involved 'on hold', in my opinion. Then you let God's minister (Romans 13:4) do what it does best, and wash your hands in innocence.

[Candace]

<div class='quotemain'>My question is this: Do we really want to see the WTBTS change it&#39;s two witness policy? Is that really sound? And if we change this two witness policy (which is based on scripture) for molestation cases (which some have suggested we do), do we make the new policy also apply to other judicial matters?[/b]

how about using EVIDENCE... your spouse cheated? show me proof. you were molested? show me proof. you were cheated in a deal? show me proof? just like the justice system is supposed to work now... The problem with the justice system NOW, is that an accusation is pretty much the same as a conviction...
[/b][/quote]

The way I see it, if a child, teenager, young adult, or an adult accuses a person of molesting them then steps should be taken to make sure this person is protected. Ignoring the situation does not help. If the accused denies the allegations, then the victim still needs to be aware of what legal steps they can take to protect themselves. No elder should ever coerce them into silence.

I&#39;ve seen it happen time and time again. The victim is pressured to keep silent because if they speak up they will bring reproach on Jehovah&#39;s name. WHOA! Hold on a minute! Who brought reproach on Jehovah&#39;s name? Wasn&#39;t it the perpetrator? But in so MANY cases, the victim is made to feel like they are the one bringing reproach on Jehovah&#39;s name and organization by speaking up about the abuse. This is WRONG and enables the abuser to keep on abusing.

How many kids are going to know what kind of proof to save in order to have evidence against the perpetrator? So, let&#39;s give kids the benefit of the doubt, and let the people who are trained in handling sex crimes handle the situation, instead of inexperienced elders whose main concern is for damage control.

As parents, we also have the responsibility to teach our children how to protect themselves. The Learn From the Great Teacher book has a chapter on how to teach even young children how to protect themselves. I don&#39;t deny that it&#39;s hard to read this chapter to your little one (Chapter 12), but to think what might happen if I did not teach my little girl to protect herself is an even more difficult thing. We review this chapter several times a year.

As regards business dealings, follow the advice we&#39;ve heard for decades and get it in writing. This will not guarantee that you won&#39;t get burned, but at least it will give you peace of mind that you did the right thing, even if the brother or sister did not honor what was written on the paper. And you might even get lucky and have some elders in your congregation that support the Biblical principle of making your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No, instead of telling you to bend over backwards to accommodate the lying, cheating, thieving so-called brother or sister.

As far as adultery goes, I don&#39;t see any reason why the elders should be the ones to decide if there is just cause for divorce or remarriage. Maybe there is a scriptural principle that I have missed, if so, please point it out to me. But in my opinion, I have seen too many innocent sisters/brothers come down with an STD, and think they finally have proof of their spouse&#39;s infidelity, only to find out that when their spouse denies the accusation the brothers say there is nothing they can do, and then they pressure the innocent mate to stay with the wrongdoer.

In my opinion it would be up to the sister/brother to decide if they are going to forgive their mate or move on. Even if their spouse denies the adultery, they should not be pressured to stay in the marriage. They were released when the spouse committed adultery.....the Bible doesn&#39;t say they are only released when the spouse confesses, does it?


And for Sketch:

Remember the sister from Canada who did not take the out-of-court settlement offered by the WTS, and did pursue her case in court, and won, and ended up having a judgment against her where she was supposed to pay the WTS&#39;s costs because she did not accept the offer to settle out-of-court? The only thing she won was a huge legal bill and the right to speak about the abuse. (Click here (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/jehovahs-witnesses-watchtower-is-it-time.html) for the commentary.)

I&#39;m sure current Plaintiffs&#39; lawyers will point that case out to their clients and pressure them to settle out-of-court. A victim may start out thinking that they are taking the WTS to court in order to force them to deal with the abuse situation, and they may have every intention of seeing the case through to the end and of not giving up their freedom of speech, but somewhere along the way they find out that the justice system is all about money, not justice. Their attorney is going convince them to take the settlement because to not do so would be a dangerous financial gamble (i.e. having to pay the WTS&#39;s legal fees). I can see how a lot of victims could be pressured into settling out-of-court.

In any of these scenarios (sexual abuse, fraud, adultery, etc.), the only true justice is going to come from Jehovah. What can we do to get justice now? Not much. But we can protect children from further abuse, by allowing the proper authorities into the picture. And we can protect the sanity of an innocent marriage mate by not dictating to them whether they have the right to scripturally divorce their mate. They know in their heart whether or not they are free in Jehovah&#39;s eyes. And if you do busines with a brother or sister....skip the handshake and get it in writing!

(Edit: This thread was on post #20 as I was writing....I see it has gotten a lot of response!)

[DoubtingThomas]

But the problem here Berean is that even the so-called experts often disagree amoung themselves. Each side puts on its own "expert" witnesses in a case. We have a brother in my congregation who is the deputy DA in my county. He prosecutes these cases all the time. He has sent many men to prison for this crime. He is in the local news in my community (TV and Newspaper) all the time. And he has personally told me how tough these cases are because these so-called experts are nothing more than hired guns.

DT

[Jinnvisible]

One possible way of applying a workible practice would be to ask the accused to go to the police and report either themselves as being guilty or make a report of a false accusation.

A false allegation of child abuse is really so serious as to be in the same ball park. Afterall someone making those kinds of lies is opperating just as Satan.

So if the accused is innocent they benefit from the fact that they are the first ones to inform the `greater authorities`.

If they are guilty they benefit from an honest admission.

And if they lie to the police about thier innocence and the police even fail in thier own investigation, then it will look very odd when on a second separate occation they would have to report it again at the behest of the elder body.

All this would have to vary slightly depending on the laws of country the crime was allegidly committed in.

However the fact that the bible doesn`t even specifically detail Child Sex offenses immediately tells you that it is such a great evil that it Quilifies turning the matter over to the world, in the same way that Paul directed the elders in Corinth to turn the fornicator out into the World.

In either instance of an actual crime,

or someone so twisted that they would use a horrendous accusation to slander.

Either way it is a worldly matter.

[Candace]

One possible way of applying a workible practice would be to ask the accused to go to the police and report either themselves as being guilty or make a report of a false accusation.

A false allegation of child abuse is really so serious as to be in the same ball park. Afterall someone making those kinds of lies is opperating just as Satan.

So if the accused is innocent they benefit from the fact that they are the first ones to inform the `greater authorities`.

If they are guilty they benefit from an honest admission.

And if they lie to the police about thier innocence and the police even fail in thier own investigation, then it will look very odd when on a second separate occation they would have to report it again at the behest of the elder body.[/b]

That is really logical and makes a lot of sense. :188: If someone is falsely accused, their main concern should be to clear their name, and step number 1 should be to file a report with the police. I imagine this would give the brothers a good indication of who is telling the truth and who is lying. Liars don&#39;t want to go to the police......it gives them away every time.

Fact: A brother was molesting 14 year old girls. He gets one of them pregnant. Takes her for an abortion, then he abandons his own child at home and runs away with the girl, taking her into another state. He parks at a beach and they spend the night on the beach. His car gets broken into, the driver&#39;s side window was smashed. His wallet was stolen. As he&#39;s surveying the damage the police just happen to come by, on a routine check of the beach parking lot. They start to question him about the broken window and he explains how his wallet was stolen. The police suggest that he come to the police station to fill out a report and he hesitates, not wanting to do it. This hesitation gives the policeman a funny feeling, so he checks wants and warrants or whatever it is they check and finds out this guy is wanted in the neighboring state for kidnapping and multiple other charges, and realizes the girl with him is NOT his niece, and instead is the missing 14 year old.

So, yeah, I can see how this scenario could work out to the benefit of all involved.

[DoubtingThomas]

This seems like a good solution, but there are problems with this idea too Candace. I am aware of this exact scenario where a brother was accused, denied it, went to the authorities to deny it and report a false accusation being made against him by his ex-wife. The authorities did nothing. No charges against the accuser or the accused. The congregation did nothing. Lack of two witnesses they said. And the accusations and rumours were still floating around the congregation - causing divisions and two seperate camps forming with different ones believing different things. This is the crux of this entire problem in the organization as I see it. So in this case (and others like it) the accused going to the authorities solved nothing. Also ... once a case escalates to the actual charging of a crime by the DA, no lawyer will let his client even think about talking to the authorities.

DT

[Jinnvisible]

This seems like a good solution, but there are problems with this idea too Candace.[/b]

In the incidence that a solution does not solve an issue it does not automatically follow that thier is a `problem` with the solution. It may simply not be the right one for the situation, or there may not be a solution at all where `no-one` is at risk of sufferance.

[Candace]

This seems like a good solution, but there are problems with this idea too Candace. I am aware of this exact scenario where a brother was accused, denied it, went to the authorities to deny it and report a false accusation being made against him by his ex-wife. The authorities did nothing. No charges against the accuser or the accused. The congregation did nothing. Lack of two witnesses they said. And the accusations and rumours were still floating around the congregation - causing divisions and two seperate camps forming with different ones believing different things. This is the crux of this entire problem in the organization as I see it. So in this case (and others like it) the accused going to the authorities solved nothing. Also ... once a case escalates to the actual charging of a crime by the DA, no lawyer will let his client even think about talking to the authorities.

DT[/b]

Well, that congregation has more problems than just accusations. It sounds like gossip has reared its ugly head, and that is unfortunate. I know how damaging gossip can be, whether it&#39;s true or not. My daughter was accused of something. Somehow, the son of one of the elder&#39;s handling the situation overheard something or possibly read something in a file, repeated it to a sister, and that sister then confronted my daughter.

My daughter attempted suicide over this, she couldn&#39;t believe Elder So-and-So&#39;s son was going around telling people about the accusation. When confronted, the brother and sister denied everything. My daughter is no longer a member of the congregation and that is no surprise to me. Satan rears his ugly head every chance he gets. He&#39;s very skilled at dividing congregations, and does whatever he can to stumble Jehovah&#39;s sheep.

In the end, Jehovah will set matters straight. It is really hard to be patient and wait on Jehovah, but that is really the only solution in situations like this.