When they are saying "peace and security!"

[watchman]

When they are saying "peace and security!" is the topic of a new blog entry on The Watchman's Post. (http://e-watchman.com)

watchman

[arimatthewdavies]

its sure as the sun rise on the way ! maybe i will yet live to see what i have longed for since my childhood, furthermore if i live or die i want to see jesus kick wickednesses butt! that would be a great site to behold. still we are far from proclaiming oh how quiet and peaceful it is! its more like how sicker can we get before jesus shows mercy on our poor planet, i can surley understand what jehovah ment when he said im going to destroy all flesh for i do regret that i made them! sometimes i wish he had.will man ever be decent? even when jesus finishes his 1000 years i will bet some jackass man somewere starts the mess again,oh how i hope not..

[sir_chan]

The WT study from yesterday prompted me to do a search on google regarding the phrase "peace and security" and how it's being used in the world today.

Here was the first one I found which was quite interesting: http://www.america.gov/relations/security.html

Also, just yesterday in the Washington Post:
[click for source] "He is usually depicted as a hard-liner, a hopeless ideologue burdened by a legacy of hawkish sound bites and shackled to a notoriously conservative coalition. But, contrary to popular wisdom, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is proving to be the most dovish leader that Israel has had in many years, one who is using military force cautiously and seeking, at long last, a diplomatic resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "I came here today to find an historic compromise that will enable both our peoples to live in peace and security and in dignity," he said at last week's Middle East peace summit at the White House. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302209.html)"
Leave it to mainstream media to imply Israels leader as being dovish...lol...that's a good one. It is quite evident that Israel does NOT want peace. It reminds me of the scripture in Daniel (Da 11:27) “. . .“And as regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to doing what is bad, and at one table a lie is what they will keep speaking. But nothing will succeed, because [the] end is yet for the time appointed.”

No, i'm not saying this is the fulfillment of that prophecy, it just reminds me of it is all.

With the world situation the way it is, yes I can see this peace summit as a prelude to something larger, but that could be said for many other events in the past as well.

Oops, I just read the article(click here for article) (http://e-watchman.com/home/2010/4/19/when-they-are-saying-peace-and-security.html) posted by Watchman, and the American.gov website is listed in his blog as well as many others. Good job Watchman, I missed that blog. So the only thing new would be the statement made by Netanyahu.

[Utuna]

Dear sir_chan,

In my opinion, this call for peace and security is followed by destruction, that is by Har-Maguedon, not the Great Tribulation. Destruction will take place when nations will have killed or at least silenced the holy ones of the Supreme One :

"...and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time." - (Dan7:25)

"If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones." - (Rv13:10)

"And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days." - (Dn11:33)

The call for peace and security will take place when the following verses are fulfilled :

"And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them." - (Rv11:10-11)

The "two witnesses" will cause such a mess in Satan's plans and, according the fleshly points of view, in the efforts of humans to establish worldwide peace, that the latter ones will consider their defeat as a reason to herald peace and security at last...

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[sir_chan]

Dear sir_chan,

In my opinion, this call for peace and security is followed by destruction, that is by Har-Maguedon, not the Great Tribulation. Destruction will take place when nations will have killed or at least silenced the holy ones of the Supreme One :




Hi Utuna...

I can definitely see it from your perspective for sure, and for all I know you could be right. Especially since the end of chapter 4 is talking about the blowing of the 7th trumpet and the gathering of the anointed. It could make sense that the times and seasons being talked about in 5:1 were after the anointed had died.

(1Th 4:16-5:4) “. . .because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.
5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. 2 For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 4 But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day[Jehovahs Day] should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5 for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.”

So from these it would be easy to come to that conclusion that the peace and security would come after the anointed ones had died, and therefore was a prelude to the sudden destruction at Armageddon.

However, it seems that verses 4 and 5 point to an earlier fulfillment of the cry of "peace and security".
(1Th 5:4-5) “. . .But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day[Jehovahs Day] should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5 for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.”
If the anointed were already dead at this point, according to the other perspective, then how could that day overtake them as it would thieves?

Paul was telling the anointed brothers that it wouldn't overtake them because they were sons of light and day, and that they would essentially be awake and ready for when that day came. This would not be possible if they had already been gathered together in heaven.

[SlaveForJah]

Dear sir_chan,

In my opinion, this call for peace and security is followed by destruction, that is by Har-Maguedon, not the Great Tribulation. Destruction will take place when nations will have killed or at least silenced the holy ones of the Supreme One :

"...and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time." - (Dan7:25)

"If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones." - (Rv13:10)

"And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days." - (Dn11:33)

The call for peace and security will take place when the following verses are fulfilled :

"And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them." - (Rv11:10-11)

The "two witnesses" will cause such a mess in Satan's plans and, according the fleshly points of view, in the efforts of humans to establish worldwide peace, that the latter ones will consider their defeat as a reason to herald peace and security at last...

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Agreed.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[sir_chan]

Hi again....

Some other points crossed my mind as I was considering your perspective. Just to make sure I have it right, you feel that the call for "peace and security" comes after the two witnesses are killed. You referenced these scriptures...


"And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them." - (Rv11:10-11)"


So basically, whoever makes the call of "peace and security" will have only 3 and one half days to make the call. Because after the two witnesses are raised up the scriptures say the world will have great fear, which wouldn't fall under the "security" category.


Is this what you also agree to SFJ?


-

[SlaveForJah]

Hi again....

Some other points crossed my mind as I was considering your perspective. Just to make sure I have it right, you feel that the call for "peace and security" comes after the two witnesses are killed. You referenced these scriptures...
"And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them." - (Rv11:10-11)"


So basically, whoever makes the call of "peace and security" will have only 3 and one half days to make the call. Because after the two witnesses are raised up the scriptures say the world will have great fear, which wouldn't fall under the "security" category.


Is this what you also agree to SFJ?


-

Hello Sir_Chan.

That is a fair estimation of my perspective. Here is a post I wrote in march of last year on a related subject:


I don't really think that Paul was fortelling a "declaration" per se. I don't think that the "they" being referenced is the governments. It appears to be simply an opposing view to those who 'needed nothing written to them about times and seasons', namely the "brothers". So, it seems to me that it will be more of a collective mindset engendered amongst those who take the mark of the beast. Revelation says that they will wonder admiringly at the beast and worship it for it's strength and abilities. No doubt providing a measure of "peace and security" by killing the Two Witnesses and restoring the "order" of things will be one of the wondrous things the beast accomplishes. But, after 3 days time, or virtually "immediately", instant destruction will be upon them, at the hands of the risen Two Witnesses along with their brothers in the 144,000 and their Commander Christ Jesus.


Agape

SlaveForJah(editing mine, for formatting, not content)

The above post can be seen in its original form in this (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?2587-Peace-amp-Security/page4&p=27634) thread.



Also, there is this old post from Steadfast from November of 2007 that I believe fairly sums up my view.


Let's look at the context in which the shout of peace and security is made:

1 Thessalonians 4-5 – "Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping ; that you may not sorrow just as the rest who have no hope.

For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep through Jesus Christ God will bring with him.

For this is what we tell you by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death];

because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Afterward, we the living who are surviving will together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

[I]Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.

Now, as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah's day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. [I]Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security! then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress comes upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.

But you brothers, you are not in darkness, so that day should overtake you as it would thieves, for you are the sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses."

The context of the cry of peace and security seems to be related to the time when the rapture/first resurrection takes place. When does scripture say this will happen?

Jesus said in Matthew 24:29, 31 – Immediately after the tribulation of those days and he (Jesus) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Paul tells us at 1 Corinthians exactly when the elect are resurrected and changed.

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John reveals in Revelation what the last trumpet is. It is the seventh.

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

Revelation 11:12 – And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: "come on up here." and they went up into heaven in the cloud and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 – The seventh angel blew his trumpet and loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever."

Revelation 11:18 – And the nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and to reward your servants the prophets, and the saints and those who revere your name, small and great; and to destroy those who corrupt the earth.

Revelation 20:6 – Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over such the second death has no power, but they shall be the priests of God and of his Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

So the timeframe for the declaration is set at the end of the tribulation when all things are brought to the final conclusion before Armageddon.

What prompts men to shout "peace and security?" What mindset are they at this very unique time?

Babylon the Great is destroyed:

Revelation 17:16 – And the ten horns (the ten kings that finally received a kingdom – verse 12) that you saw, and the wild beast (the one world government), those will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire."

Even more than Babylon the Great being destroyed, one last enemy stands in Satan's way of being worshipped in toto by the entire planet. What is the enemy? The two witnesses, the ones preaching the message of Matthew 24:14:

"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness and then the end will come."

This preaching has been a thorn in the side of the beast and his false prophet for almost 3-1/2 years, as these ones seem to be untouchable:

Revelation 11 – "And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone should want to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. These have authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish."

But now verse 7 indicates a new development:

"And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss (Revelation 17:8 and Revelation13:1) will make war with them and conquer them and kill them."

This is also confirmed in Revelation 13:7 –

"And there was granted it (the beast) to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them."

Now comes a time for their rejoicing as you can almost hear them say:

"Praise Satan! Babylon the Great is destroyed! We are finally rid of all this corruptive, confusing, deceptive religion, including those pesky witnesses who have been running around for 3-1/2 years preaching this message of nonsense.

Their false message that our earthly kingdom is wrong and that the kingdom is really heavenly, was irritating and divisive. Even some of our global citizens became confused with their incessant message, going so far as refusing to worship our emperor and his christ, who have accomplished this earthly paradise that we see all around us!

At first, we were convinced that these preachers were untouchable, but look! we were finally able to kill them off! Our global celebration has been raucous with much feasting and gift-giving in honor of our final victory. It's been a glorious time, and now, our future looks bright, everything that Satan promised it would be!"

Revelation 11 says concerning these two witnesses –

"And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was also impaled. And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to on another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth."

You can hear the world shout:

Lucifer is God! Let us praise his most holy name! And now, let us shout peace and security for everything that has stood in the way of final victory has been destroyed!

But something very unexpected happens as Revelation 11 continues –

"And after three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them, and they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: "Come on up here," and they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

And in that hour a great earthquake occurred."

Their cry of peace and security is short-lived as destruction is instantly upon them. There is a price to pay for refusing to heed the message of the two witnesses and repent.

The price is the second death at Armageddon.(editing mine, for formatting, not content)

The above post can be seen in its original form in this (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?944-1-Thess-5) thread.

I hope these posts are clear in representing my position. I'd love to hear more from you about your views, thoughts, or questions about the topic.

Thanks in advance.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[sir_chan]

Hello...

As I said in the above post, you guys could very well be right. I'm just trying to come to a conclusion that doesn't have any contradictions is all. And to me, the scripture at 1Thes raises a contradiction in the perspective you hold. I could be wrong, so lets combine our thoughts. The part which I mentioned in the above post which I feel has some merit is:

(1Th 5:4-5) “. . .But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day[Jehovahs Day] should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5 for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.”

If the anointed are already dead, and have been gathered up to heaven, then this scripture serves no purpose. Its a moot point.

Kinda like telling somebody the bus is coming on Thursday, but they are going to die on Tuesday kinda thing. What's the point?

Also, before we go any farther in this discussion, I think it is very important that we are talking about the same thing regarding the definition for the Day of Jehovah, which this scripture revolves around. There can be several different interpretations of it, and I would hate to get to post 30 and suddenly realize we have been talking about two different things.

Depending on your view of when the Day of Jehovah begins can alter the entire meaning of those scriptures, however again I feel we must take into consideration the fact that the context does show that Paul was speaking to a group of anointed who he felt would be ALIVE at the beginning of the day of Jehovah, not dead.

-

[Utuna]

Hello...

As I said in the above post, you guys could very well be right. I'm just trying to come to a conclusion that doesn't have any contradictions is all. And to me, the scripture at 1Thes raises a contradiction in the perspective you hold. I could be wrong, so lets combine our thoughts. The part which I mentioned in the above post which I feel has some merit is:

(1Th 5:4-5) “. . .But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day[Jehovahs Day] should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5 for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.”

If the anointed are already dead, and have been gathered up to heaven, then this scripture serves no purpose. Its a moot point.

Kinda like telling somebody the bus is coming on Thursday, but they are going to die on Tuesday kinda thing. What's the point?

Also, before we go any farther in this discussion, I think it is very important that we are talking about the same thing regarding the definition for the Day of Jehovah, which this scripture revolves around. There can be several different interpretations of it, and I would hate to get to post 30 and suddenly realize we have been talking about two different things.

Depending on your view of when the Day of Jehovah begins can alter the entire meaning of those scriptures, however again I feel we must take into consideration the fact that the context does show that Paul was speaking to a group of anointed who he felt would be ALIVE at the beginning of the day of Jehovah, not dead.

-

Dear sir_chan,

Your objections are very, very interesting.

As Paul says, those who are the sons of light won't be overtaken by Jehovah's day because they'll have had an active part in Jehovah's purpose and will have received His spirit before then. That warning was destined to the sons of darkness, to those who will be caught off guard and found sleeping on spiritual grounds, then waking up and realising that the game is over, so to speak, if they ever wake up.

The key sentence of Paul's reasoning is : "Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night."

Paul explained a bit later why they know it quite well : "But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves, for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness."

Here Paul's sentence is not a wish, but an affirmation. They are not in darkness, in comparison with those sleeping, the sons of darkness who will be overtaken by Har-Maguedon.

In other words, we could rephrase the sentence that way : "You are not in darkness, that you might not see it coming". (Sorry, I didn't know how to word it better in English. I hope that it makes sense.)

In order to help me to make myself understood, here are two other versions :

"But you aren't in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won't be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief." - (NLT)

"But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief." - (ESV)

We shouldn't read the NWT : "so that.... that day...." but "so.... that that day..."

Moreover, please read :

"“Look! I am sending to YOU people E·li´jah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah" - (Mal4:5)

"Also, he will go before him with E·li´jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.”" - (Luke1:17)

I quoted here verses about Elijah because he is often listed, along with Moses, as one of the two prophets typifying the "two witnesses" and their works.

"And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives. And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’ - (Acts2:14-21)

I hope that I could give an answer to your questions. Tomorrow, I'll have more time to add further details if needed.

If I'm wrong, ever made a mistake or if I'm not clear enough, please, feel free to correct me.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[sir_chan]

As Paul says, those who are the sons of light won't be overtaken by Jehovah's day because they'll have had an active part in Jehovah's purpose and will have received His spirit before then. That warning was destined to the sons of darkness, to those who will be caught off guard and found sleeping on spiritual grounds, then waking up and realising that the game is over, so to speak, if they ever wake up.

The key sentence of Paul's reasoning is : "Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night."

Paul explained a bit later why they know it quite well : "But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves, for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness."

Here Paul's sentence is not a wish, but an affirmation. They are not in darkness, in comparison with those sleeping, the sons of darkness who will be overtaken by Har-Maguedon.




I'm not questioning whether they will know its coming or not. I'm questioning whether the timeframe alluded to regarding the cry of peace and security comes before the anointed die, or if it comes after, as you suggest.

The context shows it to be before, which would mean that this cry of peace and security could be the prelude to the tribulation, and not Armageddon. I can see it either way really, but lean more towards pre-tribulation because of the way verses 4,5 show the anointed are not overtaken by it, implying that they are fully awake AND ALIVE during the call of peace and security.

Also, is the day of Jehovah simply an actual day, of 24 hours, or is it a span of time in which he executes divine judgment against his enemies which climaxes at Armageddon? Anybody know, or have any ideas?

[Utuna]

I'm not questioning whether they will know its coming or not. I'm questioning whether the timeframe alluded to regarding the cry of peace and security comes before the anointed die, or if it comes after, as you suggest.

The context shows it to be before, which would mean that this cry of peace and security could be the prelude to the tribulation, and not Armageddon. I can see it either way really, but lean more towards pre-tribulation because of the way verses 4,5 show the anointed are not overtaken by it, implying that they are fully awake AND ALIVE during the call of peace and security.

Also, is the day of Jehovah simply an actual day, of 24 hours, or is it a span of time in which he executes divine judgment against his enemies which climaxes at Armageddon? Anybody know, or have any ideas?

Dear sir_chan,

Well, I can tell that my explanations weren't clear enough ! I'm sorry !

You said : "I'm questioning whether the timeframe alluded to regarding the cry of peace and security comes before the anointed die, or if it comes after, as you suggest. "

Stricto sensus, the cry of peace and security must take place before they ALL die, before they all meet the Lord in the clouds but after they're defeated by the beast. The latter won't kill them all, but all must die to get to the heavenly realms (1Cor15:36). The cry of peace and security will take place in between both events. Some will be changed instantly without having to sleep in death (1Cor15:51) as shown by the verses quoted previously. That cry will obviously take place before that extraordinary event because Jesus' conspicuous manifestation and the results of it are what causes the nations to quiver, to lose their joyful mood.

You said : "The context shows it to be before, which would mean that this cry of peace and security could be the prelude to the tribulation, and not Armageddon."

I invite you to consider again what is the day of Jehovah in the light of the following verses :

"Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger". - (Zeph2:1-3)

“And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, [B]before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.” - (Joel 2:30-32)

People must make up their mind during the "two witnesses" life-saving work. During Jehovah's day, it'll be too late. The sons of darkness will notice nothing right to the end, like in Noah's days (Luke17:26-30). They'll be blind by Satan's lies, wonders and signs (Rv16:13-14).

Another clue, the few verses I quoted at the end of my previous post showed that the outpouring of Holy Spirit will happen before the day of Jehovah's anger, then it must be Har-Maguedon, not the GT.

As for the last question of your post, I have no idea ! but I guess that it won't take long anyway...

Once again, all objections and suggestions are welcome.

Dear SFJ, thanks a lot for your helpful thoughts. It was late at night when I finished my previous post and I forgot to thank you. Mistake corrected.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[sir_chan]

Dear sir_chan,

Well, I can tell that my explanations weren't clear enough ! I'm sorry !

You said : "I'm questioning whether the timeframe alluded to regarding the cry of peace and security comes before the anointed die, or if it comes after, as you suggest. "

Stricto sensus, the cry of peace and security must take place before they ALL die, before they all meet the Lord in the clouds but after they're defeated by the beast. The latter won't kill them all, but all must die to get to the heavenly realms (1Cor15:36). The cry of peace and security will take place in between both events. Some will be changed instantly without having to sleep in death (1Cor15:51) as shown by the verses quoted previously. That cry will obviously take place before that extraordinary event because Jesus' conspicuous manifestation and the results of it are what causes the nations to quiver, to lose their joyful mood.

You said : "The context shows it to be before, which would mean that this cry of peace and security could be the prelude to the tribulation, and not Armageddon."

I invite you to consider again what is the day of Jehovah in the light of the following verses :

"Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger". - (Zeph2:1-3)

“And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, [B]before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.” - (Joel 2:30-32)

People must make up their mind during the "two witnesses" life-saving work. During Jehovah's day, it'll be too late. The sons of darkness will notice nothing right to the end, like in Noah's days (Luke17:26-30). They'll be blind by Satan's lies, wonders and signs (Rv16:13-14).

Another clue, the few verses I quoted at the end of my previous post showed that the outpouring of Holy Spirit will happen before the day of Jehovah's anger, then it must be Har-Maguedon, not the GT.

As for the last question of your post, I have no idea ! but I guess that it won't take long anyway...

Once again, all objections and suggestions are welcome.

Dear SFJ, thanks a lot for your helpful thoughts. It was late at night when I finished my previous post and I forgot to thank you. Mistake corrected.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton


Yes.....that helps. Thank you. I find myself holding on to old beliefs sometimes, even when the evidence points a different direction. Cognitive dissonance can be such a nuisance sometime...

So the only real scripture I have supporting the view that the cry of peace and security is made before the tribulation is the one at 1Thes 5:4,5. Unless anybody has some others, please speak up now. Reasoning points work as well, but please use scriptures to support the reason.

Watchman, in your essay "When they are saying peace & security" you say this:

The 13th chapter of Revelation portrays that event by symbolizing a seven-headed wild beast that receives a mortal head wound to one of its heads. The seventh head of the wild beast must surely symbolize the Anglo-American dual world power. How may it be determined that their “saying peace and security” is not an immediate precursor to the destruction God will bring on Armageddon?

Consider, now, the context in which Paul wrote his prophecy. In verses 13 through 18 Paul discusses the resurrection that is to occur during the presence (parousia) of Christ. Logically, Paul was pointing forward to the future coming of Jesus. So, it is in that setting that Paul foretold that the coming of Christ would be as unexpected as a thief in the night. In order to help Christians determine when Christ stealth-like parousia would commence the apostle foretold “whenever it is that they are saying peace and security.” That is the signal.
I was a little confused by these two paragraphs because you asked the question at the end of the first paragraph regarding the timing of the call for "peace & security", but in the second paragraph you start talking about the Lords Day.

Is the Lords day the same as the great Day of Jehovah?

If so, then I can see your point, sort of. If not, then the reasoning you use in paragraph 2 does not fit the question you ask at the end of paragraph 1. I have never thought that the "Lords Day" and "Day of Jehovah" were the same, however I am certainly up for a discussion on the possibility of it being so.

However, there does seem to be quite a few scriptures supporting the view that the Day of Jehovah, which begins after the call of "peace and security", runs parallel with the gathering of the chosen to heaven. For example
(2Th 2:1-2) “. . .However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.”
The two bolded portions show that being gathered, and the day of Jehovah, appear to be synonomous with each other as to the time frame.

Also, the fact the 1Thes 4:13-18 deals with the anointed being gathered, to be immediately followed by the verses in 1Thes 5 dealing with the cry of peace and security, also gives merit to the cry of "peace and security" coming right before Armageddon, not the tribulation.

I now see that this topic has been gone over about as much as the white horse and the rider, and i'm sure there are just as many opinions, so maybe we won't know until the tribulation comes, and either a great call for "peace & security" comes out just prior to it, or it doesn't.

So sorry for beating the horse guys, but I guess I needed some watering on the seed one of you all planted.

[Anthony]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145221

Is the ‘Peace Process’ the Road to War?

President Shimon Peres warned that written peace agreement on Jerusalem will cause a “world war.” Now, leading Kadima Knesset Member and former IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz says conflict is the fate of a United Nations declaration recognizing the Palestinian Authority as a country.

[watchman]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145221

Is the ‘Peace Process’ the Road to War?

President Shimon Peres warned that written peace agreement on Jerusalem will cause a “world war.” Now, leading Kadima Knesset Member and former IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz says conflict is the fate of a United Nations declaration recognizing the Palestinian Authority as a country.

Good catch. Every few days I Google "mid east peace" or something similar to keep an eye on that situation. I missed that article though. Thanks for helping us stay on the watch.