Seven Trumpets - Seven Cups

[Steadfast]

Seven Trumpets and Seven Cups


The trumpets are God's afflictions and trials on the remaining sons of Israel and the world of mankind to bring them to repentance. God will try the remaining sons of Israel while he afflicts 'Egypt.'

First Trumpet (Rev 8:7)

Rev 8:7 And the first angel trumpeted. And hail and fire mixed with blood occurred. And it was cast onto the earth; and the third part of the trees was burned down; and all green grass was burned down.

- Seven trumpets begin God's judgment on Satan's kingdom and a call to repentance. (Rev 8:7 – 10:7)
- Hail, fire, blood hurled to the earth. (Rev 8:7)
- 1/3 of the earth burned, trees and green vegetation. (Rev 8:7)

Second Trumpet (Rev 8:8)

Rev 8:8 And the second angel trumpeted. And as a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. And the third part of the sea became blood.

- Great burning mountain hurled into the sea. (Rev 8:8)
- 1/3 became blood, 1/3 of the creatures died. (Rev 8:8)

Third Trumpet (Rev 8:10)

Rev 8:10 And the third angel trumpeted. And a great burning star, like a lamp, fell out of the heaven. And it fell onto the third part of the rivers, and onto the springs of the waters.

- Star called Wormwood [poison] falls from heaven. (Rev 8:11)
- Turns 1/3 of the rivers into wormwood. (Rev 8:11)
- Many men die. (Revelation 8:11)

Fourth Trumpet (Rev 8:12)

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel trumpeted. And the third part of the sun, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars, was struck, that the third part of them might be darkened, and the third part of the day might not appear; and in the same way the night.

- 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars darken, reducing light by 1/3. (Rev 8:12)

Angel announces 3 woes on earth's inhabitants which are the last 3 trumpets.

Rev 8:13 And I saw, and I heard one angel flying in mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three angels about to trumpet!


Fifth Trumpet (Rev 9:1)

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel trumpeted. And I saw a star out of heaven falling onto the earth. And the key to the pit of the abyss was given it.

- Star falls from heaven with key to the abyss. (Rev 9:1)
- Locusts come forth from the abyss. (Rev 9) May be pre-Flood demonic angels. (Rev (9:2-3)
- Restricted to harming only those who do not have God's seal. Great multitude now sealed. (Rev 9:4)
- Torment men for five months. (Rev 9:5)
- First woe past. (Rev 9:12)

When the fifth trumpet blows, those who responded to the two witnesses have been sealed in the forehead.

Sixth Trumpet (Rev 9:13)

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel trumpeted. And I heard one voice out of the four horns of the golden altar [of Incense] before God.

- Untie the four angels bound at the river Euphrates. (Rev 9:14)
- Prepared to kill 1/3 of men. (Rev 9:15)
- Men do not repent. (Rev 9:20-21)
- Second woe past. (Rev 11:4)

Two witnesses killed. (Rev 11:7)

Seventh Trumpet (Rev 11:15)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel trumpeted. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of the world became our Lord's even of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."

- Christ's Kingdom rulership toward earth commences. (Rev 11:17)
- About to destroy those who destroyed the earth. (Rev 11:18)

First Resurrection/Public Rapture (Rev 11:12; 15:1-3)

The Cups are the Wrath of God.

Revelation 14:10 He also drinks of the wine of the wrath of Yahweh, that is poured without mixture in the cup of his anger and is examined in fire and sulphur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb.

First Cup (Rev 16:2)

Rev 16:2 And the first went away and poured out his cup onto the earth. And it came to be a bad and evil sore on the men, the ones having the mark of the beast, and the ones worshipping its image.

- Malignant ulcer on those with the mark of the beast. (Revelation 16:2)

Second Cup (Rev 16:3)

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his cup onto the sea. And it became blood, as of a dead one, and every soul of life died in the sea.

- Sea becomes blood. (Revelation 16:3)
- Everything in the sea dies. (Revelation 16:3)

Third Cup (Rev 16:4)

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his cup onto the rivers, and onto the springs of the waters, and it became blood.

- Rivers turn to blood. (16:4)
- Just action because of the blood of the holy ones. (16:6)

Fourth Cup(Rev 16:8)

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his cup onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.

- Plague upon the sun. (Revelation 16:8)
- Scorched men with fire. (Revelation 16:9)
- Men do not repent. (Revelation 16:9)
- Men blaspheme God. (Revelation 16:9)

Fifth Cup (Rev 16:10*)

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his cup onto the throne of the beast. And its kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues from the pain.

- Plague on the throne of the beast. (16:10)
- His kingdom darkens. (Revelation 16:10)
- Men gnaw their tongues in pain. (16:10)
- Men do not repent. (Revelation 16:11)
- Men blaspheme God. (16:11)

Sixth Cup (Rev 16:12)

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his cup onto the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up so that the way of the king from the rising of the sun might be prepared.

- Poured out on river Euphrates – Babylon the Great. (16:12)
- River dried up in preparation for the kings of the east. (Revelation 16:12)
- Unclean expressions from the dragon, beast, and false prophet. (Revelation 16:13)
- Kings gather to Armageddon. (Low plain of decision: 'Choose this day who you will serve,' Josh. 24:15) (Rev.16:16, 19:19)

Seventh Cup (Rev 16:17)

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his cup on the air; and there issued a loud voice from the Sanctuary, from the throne, which said: "It has come!"

- Babylon the Great remembered by God. (Remember = mnaomai = by implication reward or punish) (Rev 16:19)
- Babylon the Great splits into 3 parts. (dragon, beast, false prophet) (Rev 16:19)
- Final call given by God to come out of Babylon the Great. (Rev 18:4)
- Babylon the Great destroyed by the horns of the beast as God puts it into their heart. (Rev 17:17)
- Kings and merchants mourn. (Rev 18)
- Multitude in heaven rejoices. (Rev 19:1)
- Multitude on earth rejoices. (Rev 19:6)
- Harvest of the great multitude who have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14, 14:15)
- Beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire. (Rev 19:20)
- Great earthquake and hail - (Rev 16:18, 21)
- Armageddon concludes as the remainder of wicked mankind are slain. (Rev 14:18-19, 15:7-8, 16:21, 18:24, 19:21)

[Jinnvisible]

Interesting overview there. Steady on though.

The trumpets are actually celebratory.

The trumpets of revelation are like the trumpets at the entrance of a great ancient King's hall.

They are sounding the arival of a dignitory. The dignitory is Christ thus his arrival and the union of the kingdom of God and the world in unison are said to be complete during the days of the sounding of the last trumpet.

The events that follow the angels sounding thier instruments are not 'the trumpets themselves'

The woes that come upon the earth at these points are as a result of the power of the kingdom drawing near whilst the earth is in a polluted spiritual state. So the punishments and woes occur because of the evil of the world but that is not specifically the trumpets themselves.

It may seem like a semantic distinction but it will become more apparent when the knowledge of what is happening / happened at these intervals becomes apparent.

As you have made a distinction yourself between what the cups are and what the trumpets are perhaps you might be able to anticipate this.

It is not serially chronilogical. It is staggered hence the events of one trumpet overlap another yet you cannot write it effectively that way on the page so the contexts and symbolisims do not present themselves in a fast food to order interpretive way. In fact the WTBTS has skipped over a great deal of the symbolism because they really have no understanding of it so they simply do not address much of it in the publications.

If the org was in sync with the truth then they would pretty much have it all but the balance is upset and those who could have brought further understanding have been excluded.

I certainly applaud this kind of effort though Steadfast you can learn and discern in this manner.

[Steadfast]

Interesting overview there. Steady on though.

The trumpets are actually celebratory.

They are sounding the arival of a dignitory. The dignitory is Christ thus his arrival and the union of the kingdom of God and the world in unison are said to be complete during the days of the sounding of the last trumpet.



If you do some research on the shofar, you will find that it is also a call of alarm of impending battle.

Jer 51:27 Lift up a banner in the land. Blow a trumpet (shofar) among the nations; consecrate nations against her. Make to hear the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz together against her, set a marshal against her. Cause the horses to come up like rough locusts.

Eze 7:14 They have blown the trumpet (shofar), even to make all ready, but no one goes to the battle, for My wrath is on all her multitude.

Hos 5:8-9 Blow a horn in Gibeah, a trumpet (shofar) in Ramah. Cry aloud, Beth-aven; after you, O Benjamin.
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of correction. Among the tribes of Israel, I have made known that which is confirmed.

The trumpet heralding the return of Jesus Christ is sounded in 1 Thess 4:16

1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet (shofar). And the dead in Christ will rise again first.

I will disagree with you on your thoughts about this. :D

Love,

Steadfast

[Jinnvisible]

If you do some research on the shofar, you will find that it is also a call of alarm of impending battle.

Jer 51:27 Lift up a banner in the land. Blow a trumpet (shofar) among the nations; consecrate nations against her. Make to hear the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz together against her, set a marshal against her. Cause the horses to come up like rough locusts.

Eze 7:14 They have blown the trumpet (shofar), even to make all ready, but no one goes to the battle, for My wrath is on all her multitude.

Hos 5:8-9 Blow a horn in Gibeah, a trumpet (shofar) in Ramah. Cry aloud, Beth-aven; after you, O Benjamin.
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of correction. Among the tribes of Israel, I have made known that which is confirmed.

The trumpet heralding the return of Jesus Christ is sounded in 1 Thess 4:16

1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet (shofar). And the dead in Christ will rise again first.

I will disagree with you on your thoughts about this. :D

Love,

Steadfast

Well i dont feel the need to construct an argument to explain that the trumpets of revelation are heralding the arrival of a King and a kingdom. They may also mark or signify the begining of woes however that is how the revelation describes Christs enthronment woe to the earth. It is Woes as the result of something good arriving.

As I have mentioned before the Revelation vision has unprecidented events which is exactly why the cross refferencing method that you are using, that is often so usefull elsewhere, falls short specifically with the Revelation. Of course it is somewhat unprecidented.

For instance go and look up cross-reference all the symbolisms for a star falling from heaven. A cross referecing method (i.e. looking for all the things similarly written before in this way) will not neccesarily give you the proper answer.

Or for instance there is a lamb with two horns in revelation. If you cross referenced Lamb and applied everything that went before Revelation to the two horned lamb it would quite obviously give you false answers.

Senora Steadfast. I will just assume you disagree, to save you the indignity of futher communication with me unless you actually want a conversation with me about it, which I don't think you really do. ;)

[Steadfast]

Well i dont feel the need to construct an argument to explain that the trumpets of revelation are heralding the arrival of a King and a kingdom. They may also mark or signify the begining of woes however that is how the revelation describes Christs enthronment woe to the earth. It is Woes as the result of something good arriving.

As I have mentioned before the Revelation vision has unprecidented events which is exactly why the cross refferencing method that you are using, that is often so usefull elsewhere, falls short specifically with the Revelation. Of course it is somewhat unprecidented.

For instance go and look up cross-reference all the symbolisms for a star falling from heaven. A cross referecing method (i.e. looking for all the things similarly written before in this way) will not neccesarily give you the proper answer.

Or for instance there is a lamb with two horns in revelation. If you cross referenced Lamb and applied everything that went before Revelation to the two horned lamb it would quite obviously give you false answers.

Senora Steadfast. I will just assume you disagree, to save you the indignity of futher communication with me unless you actually want a conversation with me about it, which I don't think you really do. ;)

Senor Jinn (you little demon, rofl)

I didn't ask you to communicate with me in the first place. :p

[Jinnvisible]

Senor Jinn (you little demon, rofl)

I didn't ask you to communicate with me in the first place. :p

Thats just me and my evil ways. I satanically go about talking to people before Im asked to.

Fair comment.

[arimatthewdavies]

well it looks like somebody already covered revelations 7 trumpeters so i guess no no to do it again!

[Steadfast]

well it looks like somebody already covered revelations 7 trumpeters so i guess no no to do it again!

Dear Brother Ari,

Revelation is my favorite book in the Bible right now. Did the way I presented the information make sense to you?

Please feel free to offer your criticism.

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

If you do some research on the shofar, you will find that it is also a call of alarm of impending battle.

Jer 51:27 Lift up a banner in the land. Blow a trumpet (shofar) among the nations; consecrate nations against her. Make to hear the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz together against her, set a marshal against her. Cause the horses to come up like rough locusts.

Eze 7:14 They have blown the trumpet (shofar), even to make all ready, but no one goes to the battle, for My wrath is on all her multitude.

Hos 5:8-9 Blow a horn in Gibeah, a trumpet (shofar) in Ramah. Cry aloud, Beth-aven; after you, O Benjamin.
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of correction. Among the tribes of Israel, I have made known that which is confirmed.

The trumpet heralding the return of Jesus Christ is sounded in 1 Thess 4:16

1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet (shofar). And the dead in Christ will rise again first.

I will disagree with you on your thoughts about this. :D

Love,

Steadfast

Dear Steadfast,

I can't remember if I already had the opportunity to thank you for that great job of yours but I want to do it, even if it's for the second time : Thanks a lot !

Is it possible to make match in a "chronological" and "logical" way the shofar described in 1Thess4:16 and the shofar that was blown for the New Year, starting the celebration of Rosh Hashana?

We would then have a parallel "timetable" between the Old Testament (feasts) and the book of Rv.

I hope my question makes sense... lol, if it doesn't, I'll reword it differently.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

Just out of curiosity to any one who might be interested

I have been wondering about any parallel with the seven trumpets and seven bowls!
To the seven revolutions around Jericho for the seven days and then on the last day seven additional revolutions around the city. What really has my attention is immediately befor Joshua carried out the command from Jehovah, he was visited by Jesus or the prince of his people in quite the remarkable way. The angel presuming it was Jesus told Joshua to remove his sandals from his feet due to being on holy ground. Now for that to be the case would not this picture Jesus in kingly power or possessing a portion of the divine nature (life with in him self) glorified imbued with Jehovah’s power or essence.

truthseeker

[Steadfast]

I have been wondering about any parallel with the seven trumpets and seven bowls!

Dear truthseeker,

One verse caught my attention concerning the plagues:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the last seven plagues, because the anger of God was completed in them.

Since it specifically calls them the last seven plagues, what would the first plagues be?

Love,

Steadfast

[Steadfast]

Is it possible to make match in a "chronological" and "logical" way the shofar described in 1Thess4:16 and the shofar that was blown for the New Year, starting the celebration of Rosh Hashana? We would then have a parallel "timetable" between the Old Testament (feasts) and the book of Rv.

Dear Utuna,

The big question would be trying to determine if the last three feasts, including Feast of Trumpets, have already been fulfilled.

Personally, I haven't been able to find any evidence to show that Jesus already returned for the first resurrection, that Armageddon has taken place, and that the 1000 year judgment day has begun.

The first three spring feasts were all fulfilled in the same year and the same season. We are currently in the Feast of Pentecost. The last three feasts occur like this:

Fall

Trumpets - 7th month - 1st day - September/October
Atonement - 7th month - 10th day - September/October
Tabernacles - 7th month - 15-21st days - September/October

Your thoughts?

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

Dear Utuna,

The big question would be trying to determine if the last three feasts, including Feast of Trumpets, have already been fulfilled.

Personally, I haven't been able to find any evidence to show that Jesus already returned for the first resurrection, that Armageddon has taken place, and that the 1000 year judgment day has begun.

The first three spring feasts were all fulfilled in the same year and the same season. We are currently in the Feast of Pentecost. The last three feasts occur like this:

Fall

Trumpets - 7th month - 1st day - September/October
Atonement - 7th month - 10th day - September/October
Tabernacles - 7th month - 15-21st days - September/October

Your thoughts?

Love,

Steadfast

Dear Steadfast,

Yes, I do agree with you ! We're still during the Feast of Pentecost. Two witnesses were required for the New Year to be declared and their witnessing (Rv11:3) about it hasn't been heralded so far (even the JW's preaching work doesn't talk about that feast and its meaning at all). That peculiar day was the one of which no one knows the day nor the hour...

The Tabernacle feast was the rejoicing over the spring (grain, John4:35) and summer (grapes) harvests. All the products of the trees (olives) were celebrated too but they may have been harvested a bit later.

One question : Do the grain and grapes harvests correspond with Rv14:15 and Rv14:18 ?

As I said in my previous post, I'm looking for a parallel between the feasts and RV...

Thanks beforehand for your helpful thoughts !

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear Steadfast,

Please compare what I said above about the successive harvests with the following verse :

"And the threshing floors must be full of [cleansed] grain, and the press vats must overflow with new wine and oil." - (Joel2:24)

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Jinnvisible]

Dear Steadfast,

I can't remember if I already had the opportunity to thank you for that great job of yours but I want to do it, even if it's for the second time : Thanks a lot !

Is it possible to make match in a "chronological" and "logical" way the shofar described in 1Thess4:16 and the shofar that was blown for the New Year, starting the celebration of Rosh Hashana?

We would then have a parallel "timetable" between the Old Testament (feasts) and the book of Rv.

I hope my question makes sense... lol, if it doesn't, I'll reword it differently.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Its not possible. Its unpressidented.

[Steadfast]

Please compare what I said above about the successive harvests with the following verse : "And the threshing floors must be full of [cleansed] grain, and the press vats must overflow with new wine and oil." - (Joel2:24)

Dear Utuna,

I have no conclusions concerning the book of Joel. Do you have any?

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

Dear truthseeker,

One verse caught my attention concerning the plagues:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the last seven plagues, because the anger of God was completed in them.

Since it specifically calls them the last seven plagues, what would the first plagues be?

Love,

Steadfast

Dear Steadfast,

Several Bible footnotes link the seven plagues with the following verses :

“‘If, though, despite these things, YOU will not listen to me, I shall then have to chastise YOU seven times as much for YOUR sins. And I shall have to break the pride of YOUR strength and make YOUR heavens like iron and YOUR earth like copper. And YOUR power will simply be expended for nothing, as YOUR earth will not give its yield, and the tree of the earth will not give its fruit.

“‘But if YOU keep walking in opposition to me and not wishing to listen to me, I shall then have to inflict seven times more blows upon YOU according to YOUR sins. And I will send the wild beasts of the field among YOU, and they will certainly bereave YOU of children and cut off YOUR domestic animals and reduce the number of YOU, and YOUR roads will actually be desolated.

“‘Nevertheless, if with these things YOU do not let yourselves be corrected by me and YOU just have to walk in opposition to me, I, yes, I, shall then have to walk in opposition to YOU; and I, even I, shall have to strike YOU seven times for YOUR sins. And I shall certainly bring upon YOU a sword wreaking vengeance for the covenant; and YOU will indeed gather yourselves into YOUR cities, and I shall certainly send pestilence into the midst of YOU, and YOU must be given into the hand of an enemy. When I have broken for YOU the rods around which ring-shaped loaves are suspended, ten women will then actually bake YOUR bread in but one oven and give back YOUR bread by weight; and YOU must eat but YOU will not be satisfied.

“‘If, however, with this YOU will not listen to me and YOU just must walk in opposition to me, I shall then have to walk in heated opposition to YOU, and I, yes, I, shall have to chastise YOU seven times for YOUR sins." - (Lev26:18-28)

They explain that a sevenfold plague may be the symbol of utter condemnation and punishment.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Steadfast]

They explain that a sevenfold plague may be the symbol of utter condemnation and punishment.

Dear Utuna,

I agree that these would be symbolic of utter condemnation and punishment, but in context, the Leviticus destruction is upon God's people.

During the last seven plagues in Revelation, the opportunity to repent is available, but men do not repent:

4th cup - Men do not repent. (Revelation 16:9)

5th cup - Men do not repent. (Revelation 16:11)

So who receive these final seven plagues in Revelation?

Love,

Steadfast

[sir_chan]

After comparing the trumpets with the seven bowls, there is a unique pattern that is established between the two. The events that unfold after each could be simply different explanations of the same event, taken from a different perspective.

Note the similarities between the scriptures that are in order, from 1st Trumpet/1st bowl through the 7th, and you will see that in each comparison there is a similar event, although different in nature the similarity is undoubtedly there.

Is there any way to discern whether these two visions(trumpet vision/bowl vision) are actually completely separate events, or are the same event given a different perspective?

(Re 8:7) “And the first one blew his trumpet. And there occurred a hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees was burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up.”
(Re 16:2 ) “. . .And the first one went off and poured out his bowl into the earth. And a hurtful and malignant ulcer came to be upon the men that had the mark of the wild beast and that were worshiping its image.”


(Re 8:8-9) “. . .And the second angel blew his trumpet. And something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea. And a third of the sea became blood; 9 and a third of the creatures that are in the sea which have souls died, and a third of the boats were wrecked.”
(Re 16:3) “. . .And the second one poured out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul died, [yes,] the things in the sea.”


(Re 8:10-11) “. . .And the third angel blew his trumpet. And a great star burning as a lamp fell from heaven, and it fell upon a third of the rivers and upon the fountains of waters. 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters turned into wormwood, and many of the men died from the waters, because these had been made bitter.”
(Re 16:4-7) “. . .And the third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters. And they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel over the waters say: “You, the One who is and who was, the loyal One, are righteous, because you have rendered these decisions, 6 because they poured out the blood of holy ones and of prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7 And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.””


(Re 16:8-9) “. . .And the fourth one poured out his bowl upon the sun; and to [the sun] it was granted to scorch the men with fire. 9 And the men were scorched with great heat, but they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give glory to him.”
(Re 8:12) “. . .And the fourth angel blew his trumpet. And a third of the sun was smitten and a third of the moon and a third of the stars, in order that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not have illumination for a third of it, and the night likewise.”



Re 9:1-4) “. . .And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
(Re 16:10-11) “. . .And the fifth one poured out his bowl upon the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues for [their] pain, 11 but they blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their ulcers, and they did not repent of their works.”


(Re 9:13-15) “. . .And the sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before God 14 say to the sixth angel, who had the trumpet: “Untie the four angels that are bound at the great river Eu·phra′tes.” 15 And the four angels were untied, who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, to kill a third of the men.”
(Re 16:12) “. . .And the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Eu·phra′tes, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun.”


(Re 11:15-19) “. . .And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” 19 And the temple [sanctuary] of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple [sanctuary]. And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.”
(Re 16:17-21) “. . .And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred, and a great earthquake occurred such as had not occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive an earthquake, so great. 19 And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath. 20 Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. 21 And a great hail with every stone about the weight of a talent descended out of heaven upon the men, and the men blasphemed God due to the plague of hail, because the plague of it was unusually great.”


And in answer to who receives the plagues, wouldn't it be all those who fail to recognize Jehovah as God, just like in Moses' day?

[Steadfast]

Dear Sir Chan,

Here are some of the differences I noticed between the trumpets and plagues. Splitting hairs? Maybe...maybe not:

The destruction of the first seven trumpet plagues by the seven angels seems to be selective:

First trumpet – One third of the trees burned with burning hail mixed with fire and blood.

Second trumpet – The sea: One third became blood, one third of the creatures died.

Third trumpet – One third of the rivers turned into wormwood. Many men die.

Fourth trumpet – One third of the sun, moon, stars darken.

Sixth trumpet – Angels untied at the river Euphrates. Prepare to kill one third.



Second cup – The sea: Becomes blood and everything in it dies.

Sixth cup – Poured out on the Euphrates river and it dried up in preparation for the kings of the east. (Rev 17:14 – called, elect, and faithful are with him.)


Intensifying certain facets of the plagues would serve Jehovah's progressive warning to repent.

Love,

Steadfast

[sir_chan]

Intensifying certain facets of the plagues would serve Jehovah's progressive warning to repent.

Love,

Steadfast


Hi....

Yes, I can see that as well. Jehovah caused each plague on Egypt to be progressively worse than the last, so it would make sense for that scenario again.

I do wonder if perhaps the two witnesses who prophecy will warn the world of what is going to happen before each trumpet is blown, just as Moses warned the Egyptians prior to the plagues being cast on them. That would certainly garner some credibility, don't you think?

After the two witnesses are killed all the things that happened to the world in 1/3's(And a third of the sea became blood; and a third of the creatures, etc...) will NOW be on full scale because of the failure to repent, and because the two witnesses have now been killed Jehovah will implement the full punishment without holding back as he did with the trumpets.

Anyways, just brainstorming is all....

[Steadfast]

Hi....

Yes, I can see that as well. Jehovah caused each plague on Egypt to be progressively worse than the last, so it would make sense for that scenario again.

I do wonder if perhaps the two witnesses who prophecy will warn the world of what is going to happen before each trumpet is blown, just as Moses warned the Egyptians prior to the plagues being cast on them. That would certainly garner some credibility, don't you think?

After the two witnesses are killed all the things that happened to the world in 1/3's(And a third of the sea became blood; and a third of the creatures, etc...) will NOW be on full scale because of the failure to repent, and because the two witnesses have now been killed Jehovah will implement the full punishment without holding back as he did with the trumpets.

Anyways, just brainstorming is all....

Dear Sir Chan,

You did a great job of laying out a challenge. Several years ago, I did also believe that the trumpets and cups ran together, but the more I looked at them, the more I saw some detail that didn't quite fit.

I think you are absolutely right in your connection to the two witnesses. The world will be shouting 'peace and security' for three days...and then WHAM! When those witnesses stand up and go up, some men will faint out of fear and the repentant will give glory to God.

And this is what God is looking for because he desires none to be lost.

Brain rash is good Sir Chan. rofl.

Love,

Steadfast

[Anthony]

After comparing the trumpets with the seven bowls, there is a unique pattern that is established between the two. The events that unfold after each could be simply different explanations of the same event, taken from a different perspective.

Note the similarities between the scriptures that are in order, from 1st Trumpet/1st bowl through the 7th, and you will see that in each comparison there is a similar event, although different in nature the similarity is undoubtedly there.

Is there any way to discern whether these two visions(trumpet vision/bowl vision) are actually completely separate events, or are the same event given a different perspective?




I like what you have done with the trumpet/bowl verses together. I had just did the samething a couple of days ago with the seal/trumpet verses, but when I finished I noticed that at the 7th seal is when the 7 trumpets were given out, so I knew there was no ponit in comparing them.

I am listing them all together with yours even though you will have to keep in mind that all the seals happen first.

But what I would like to know is what time frame would we call the time we would be living in when the seals are open in comparison to the trumpets/bowls being open?

Black- seals
Blue- trumpet
Red- bowls

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.
(Re 8:7) “And the first one blew his trumpet. And there occurred a hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees was burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up.”
(Re 16:2 ) “. . .And the first one went off and poured out his bowl into the earth. And a hurtful and malignant ulcer came to be upon the men that had the mark of the wild beast and that were worshiping its image.”
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.
(Re 8:8-9) “. . .And the second angel blew his trumpet. And something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea. And a third of the sea became blood; 9 and a third of the creatures that are in the sea which have souls died, and a third of the boats were wrecked.”
(Re 16:3) “. . .And the second one poured out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul died, [yes,] the things in the sea.”
5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”
(Re 8:10-11) “. . .And the third angel blew his trumpet. And a great star burning as a lamp fell from heaven, and it fell upon a third of the rivers and upon the fountains of waters. 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters turned into wormwood, and many of the men died from the waters, because these had been made bitter.”
(Re 16:4-7) “. . .And the third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters. And they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel over the waters say: “You, the One who is and who was, the loyal One, are righteous, because you have rendered these decisions, 6 because they poured out the blood of holy ones and of prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7 And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.””
7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.
(Re 16:8-9) “. . .And the fourth one poured out his bowl upon the sun; and to [the sun] it was granted to scorch the men with fire. 9 And the men were scorched with great heat, but they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give glory to him.”
(Re 8:12) “. . .And the fourth angel blew his trumpet. And a third of the sun was smitten and a third of the moon and a third of the stars, in order that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not have illumination for a third of it, and the night likewise.”
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
Re 9:1-4) “. . .And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
(Re 16:10-11) “. . .And the fifth one poured out his bowl upon the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues for [their] pain, 11 but they blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their ulcers, and they did not repent of their works.”
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and [every] island were removed from their places. 15 And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
(Re 9:13-15) “. . .And the sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before God 14 say to the sixth angel, who had the trumpet: “Untie the four angels that are bound at the great river Eu·phra′tes.” 15 And the four angels were untied, who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, to kill a third of the men.”
(Re 16:12) “. . .And the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Eu·phra′tes, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun.”
8 And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them.
(Re 11:15-19) “. . .And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” 19 And the temple [sanctuary] of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple [sanctuary]. And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.”
(Re 16:17-21) “. . .And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred, and a great earthquake occurred such as had not occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive an earthquake, so great. 19 And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath. 20 Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. 21 And a great hail with every stone about the weight of a talent descended out of heaven upon the men, and the men blasphemed God due to the plague of hail, because the plague of it was unusually great.”

[arimatthewdavies]

it is quite a strange coincidence that this thread came back just when i was going to go into how the trumpets and bowels are first a breif warning then the actual event but yes the trumpets and bowls are part of the same event not more plauges look at the thread i sarted i did angel 1 before i saw that i was doing a subject already well worn

[Steadfast]

But what I would like to know is what time frame would we call the time we would be living in when the seals are open in comparison to the trumpets/bowls being open?

Dear Brother Anthony,

As you suggested, the seals open before any trumpets start to blow:

Rev 8:1-2 And when He opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in Heaven, about a half hour. And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

It would seem that silence in heaven for half an hour is telling us that a profound change is about to take place.

I would suggest that the seven seals belong to Satan and they are his great tribulation on those who refuse to take the mark.

Rev 13:17 ...even that not any could buy or sell, except the one having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.

Satan has to put pressure on humanity to join him in his kingdom. What better way than to wage war, restrict food, and send those who won't to their deaths. The good news is that those who do die by the 'hand' of the pale horse rider...go to the grave:

Rev 6:8 And I saw, and behold, a pale green horse, and the name of the one sitting on it was Death; and the grave followed after him. And authority was given to them to kill over the fourth of the earth with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

These are not cast into the lake of fire (gehenna), but preserved for the resurrection. Satan loses! So if the great tribulation belongs to Satan, then who is the white horse rider?

Rev 6:1-2 And I behold when the Lamb opens one of the seals, and I hear as it were, the noise of thunder, one of the four cherubim saying: "Come and beware." And I see and behold, a white horse, and he that sits on him has a bow, and a crown is given to him, and he springs forth conquering that he might conquer.

The book of Revelation gives us the length of the rule of the beast:

Rev 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it.

It also mentions times, time, and half a time, and also 1260 days. These all translate to 3-1/2 years. It seems that the from start to end, the tribulation and the trumpets and cups all fit into this length of time. It's not going to be decades long.

The great tribulation could be called Satan's war. When the seventh seal opens, we are involved in the crescendo of the wrath of God.

These topics have been discussed in the past, and I'm sure the threads can be found by searching through the archives.

Love,

Steadfast

[James]

I would suggest that the seven seals belong to Satan and they are his great tribulation on those who refuse to take the mark.

Rev 13:17 ...even that not any could buy or sell, except the one having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.


Love,

Steadfast

Hello Steadfast,
I have been following this thread with interest and I thank you for your contributions.

Revelation 5:1 begins the vision of the seals. (Revelation 5:1-2) 5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated upon the throne a scroll written within and on the reverse side, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?”
These seals, when broken, reveal events written in that scroll that take place in succession. The cross reference takes us to (Ezekiel 2:10) And he gradually spread it out before me, and it was written upon in front and on the back; and there were written in it dirges and moaning and wailing.

From thefreedictionary.com it says this:
Dirge
1. Music a. A funeral hymn or lament.
b. A slow, mournful musical composition.
c. A chant of lamentation for the dead

So, my guess is that since the scroll is written on front and reverse, that one side tells of Satans' torments on mankind and the other side is the dirges or musical accompaniment that people chant or cry out.


agape,
James

[Steadfast]

Revelation 5:1 begins the vision of the seals. (Revelation 5:1-2) 5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated upon the throne a scroll written within and on the reverse side, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?”

These seals, when broken, reveal events written in that scroll that take place in succession. The cross reference takes us to (Ezekiel 2:10) And he gradually spread it out before me, and it was written upon in front and on the back; and there were written in it dirges and moaning and wailing.

From thefreedictionary.com it says this:
Dirge
1. Music a. A funeral hymn or lament.
b. A slow, mournful musical composition.
c. A chant of lamentation for the dead

So, my guess is that since the scroll is written on front and reverse, that one side tells of Satans' torments on mankind and the other side is the dirges or musical accompaniment that people chant or cry out.

Dear Brother James,

That is a great connection you make here. Thank you so much!

Love,

Steadfast

[Anthony]

The world is on the Brink of a devastating nuclear war between Iran and the United States says Fidel Castro the leader of Cuba , the war will spark because of the sanctions against Iran....http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/2010/07/fidel-castro-nuclear-war-is-coming.html


Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before God 14 say to the sixth angel, who had the trumpet: "Untie the four angels that are bound at the great river Eu·phra´tes." 15 And the four angels were untied, who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, to kill a third of the men.