Battle Of Armageddon

[Nash]

Hello folks.

This was a topic that I had wanted to start for a while now but never got around to it. So, here goes.

Many who were once Jehovah's Witnesses but have left the truth, many who are not Jehovah's Witnesses, and many who cling to some/many of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God, in his love, will not destroy many of earth's inhabitants at Armageddon. It also seems to me that many believe that because God is love, God will not destroy billions of people in a battle like Armageddon. In other words, from what I understand from what these individuals post on discussion forums, they would agree that Jehovah will destroy certain individuals at Armageddon, but, from what I understand, the destruction will not be as numerous, so to speak, as the WTS portrays. This is what I understand from reading what these people have to say on various forums, more or less.

I thought that I would give my view on the situation. Please feel free to contribute your thoughts, as I would like to see what opinions people have on this subject.

My view is that the majority of the world's inhabitants will be destroyed. I do think, however, that the Society's view that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved is somewhat flawed, since it seems that they reason that only those in the spiritual ark (i.e. within Jehovah's organization) will be saved.

I have some scriptures that back up my conclusions, so I thought that I would give the scriptures as well as my comments.

The first scripture that I believe has a bearing on this issue is Colossians 3:5, 6, which says: "Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of those things the wrath of God is coming."

I think that this scripture is fantastic, and establishes at least two things. First, it shows that God has wrath, something that those who ascribe to the 'God is love, so he will be merciful' view are overlooking. In fact, they are probably overlooking that fact so as to excuse and justify to themselves that committing acts that the bible clearly condemns is okay, as long as one is 'repentant' and realizes that we as humans are 'sinners.' Second, the scripture establishes clearly why Jehovah is wrathful and why God is coming.

So it seems evident from a scriptural standpoint that Jehovah will destroy those practicing the things mentioned in the scriptures. So, who will be destroyed?

Taking fornication for starters, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that fornication is widespread. Even those who claim to read and believe in the bible (members of Christendom, for example), claim that the bible presents the 'ideals' only, and yet they commit fornication, and continue in their practice of it, excusing themselves really.

If we take this reasoning to the next step, we can ask ourselves how many are thinking this way, keeping in mind that we are only speaking of fornication. Really, we are talking millions upon millions of people here, folks. They can't really say that they do not know what the bible's standards are, can they? In fact, one of the reasons why people reject the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses is because many find us 'restrictive' in this area, so they will go ahead and commit fornication anyway.

If we take covetousness as a second example, which I would think logically extends to theivery, greed, and fraudulent activities, how many more (who do not practice fornication, for example) commit these acts? We hear in the news constantly about stolen items, acts of corporate fraud, and the like.

I really don't want these types of people in Jehovah's cleansed earth, and so I think that Jehovah should destroy them off. Really, being a loving God does not include literally letting people get away with these things. In fact, I would think it would be unloving to allow these types of individuals into the cleansed earth, especially when others are diligent and do not practice such things.

Here's another scripture, taken from Matthew 24:36-42: "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until that day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other will be abandoned; two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."

What pops out at me from the above verses is the fact that those who were destroyed took no note. No note of what? The preaching work aside, I would have to say that many are taking no note of the world conditions around them and many simply do not realize that there are serious problems on the earth. They are too concerned with what they themselves want and are unconcerned about the welfare of society in general as well as the earth itself. So, excluding those who are not committing the atrocities mentioned in Colossians 3:5, 6, there are those who are guilty of taking no note of the world conditions around them (of course, one could reason that they are taking no note of the 'spiritual ark' - this is a related topic, but I think we can have another thread on that once this thread has been exhausted).

The individuals in question who personify the attitudes displayed in the above quoted scripture from the book of Matthew also personify the following attitudes, taken from 2 Peter 3:3, 4: "For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: 'Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creations beginning.'"

The phrase "all things are continuing exactly as from creation's beginning" well describes the laissez-faire attitudes of today. People like living the way they live and are uninterested in the welfare or the suffering of others. Many do not even give the downtrodden, the hungry, the poor, and the afflicted a passing thought.

Having said this, I also cannot conclude that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved. I do think that the majority of those saved will be Jehovah's Witnesses, but I also feel that there will be exceptions. Why do I say this? Well, for starters, there are those who are not Jehovah's people who do see the atrocities committed, and who do see issues in the world and its problems and who want a solution - and these ones also follow bible standards for the most part, and who do have good morals - although, in my opinion, such people are few, but there are some. I would think that such people are simply unaware of Jehovah's Witnesses or are disillusioned with religion altogether because of the atrocities committed in the name of religion - and let's not even begin to list all of the religious scandals.

I also believe that there will be some of 'Jehovah's Witnesses' who will be destroyed. Why do I say this? Some in our congregations are leading double lives and are even getting away with it (at least for the time being). So, they are Jehovah's Witnesses in name only - they are not really following Jehovah's standards. How many are secreatly committing fornication and adultery? How many are committing fraud? How many lie? In fact, there are those who are within the organization who are aware that all is not well within and are disturbed and upset by this. Of course, this is not a reason to disassociate ourselves, begin following wrong teachings, and commit wrongdoing ourselves.

Then, there are those who have been disfellowshipped for unnecessary or unscriptural reasons, those who are inactive due to discouragement or other reasons, and the like. I don't think that these ones will be destroyed either.

However, if those who fall into the above categories revert to false religion or begin to engage in serious sins, then they are in danger of being destroyed, simply because "if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him," as James 4:17 says.

Well, folks, that's my take on this subject. B)

Ultimately, of course, Jehovah and Jesus will judge, and there are so many factors for them to consider, much more than I have listed here, I'm sure! Obviously, they will do what is right. They read hearts and know who should be in the paradise and who will have the opportunity to live on the earth forever.

Nash

[eyes&ears]

Hi Nash,

I like this topic and will be back after meeting. But from the top of my head I always thought that Jehovah will eliminate the wicked, just like he did at Sodom and G and also in Noah's day. Jehovah is not playing around.

I will be back with a more intelligent response to your wonderful post this afternoon.

Best to you and yours

E & E

[Jeshurun]

Hi Nash, excellent post.

It really is all about hearts. Being that Satan has his counterfeit kingdom on track to clash with Jehovah's, everyone will ultimately have to choose between the two. We all know how much it is all going to come down to who loves the truth, and who doesn't. But you can't love the truth until you know the truth, and that takes considerable effort. Those who get caught up in the tribulation without knowing the truth are going to do one of two things, they are either going to seek answers and then bring their lives in accord with clean living before Jehovah, or they are going to accelerate their present debased lifestyle into an all-out, live-for-the-moment-because-the-end-is-near depth of total debauchery. Those who are prone to rioting will be rioting. Those prone to immorality will be immoral, and so on. That's why Jehovah uses the Great Tribulation as a time to judge. It will be a true and fair test. Those familiar with Jesus will have no excuses. Those who only know Buddha, or Allah, or Brahma could very well be, by the time Armageddon gets here, already dead at the hands of the 8th king. Only Jehovah knows how far he will let them go on their genocidal rampage.

As far as only baptized Witnesses surviving, that to me is a very abstract idea, since the organization will be long gone. Once the Watchtower goes down, all the Witnesses are scattered to the wind. Those loving the truth and loving Jehovah will find him, because Jehovah will make sure they find him. All he wants to see is the genuine desire and effort, and of course, a genuine attempt at living a lifestyle that backs up their words.

I believe that the education we are all getting for ourselves is the only chance we have to be able to make the right decisions in the face of starvation, disease, or nuclear annihilation. Some people will go off the deep end simply because they cannot take a shower, or go bowling, or get their nails done, or whatever. Those who never took the time to find out anything will simply sign away their souls for a bowl of soup, and I personally will not feel sorry for them. I look forward to my chance to stand face to face with the beast and declare to them their coming annihilation at the hands of Jehovah God. It is only what we have learned from Jehovah that will give us the courage to make the right decision.

[Sketch]

Hello Nash,

While I agree with your bottom line - that not all JWs will be "saved", I disagree with how you got to the answer... (i sound like my math teacher... oy). Please allow me to play "devil's advocate" as it were...


Taking fornication for starters, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that fornication is widespread. Even those who claim to read and believe in the bible (members of Christendom, for example), claim that the bible presents the 'ideals' only, and yet they commit fornication, and continue in their practice of it, excusing themselves really.[/b]

Okay, can we please get clarification on this? what exactly constitutes "fornication"? specifically sexual fornication (as opposed to spiritual)... as most guys (i can't speak for the ladies) can attest, during the teen years, you REALLY don't have a choice in what pushes the "on" button. The bible tells us that anyone who lusts in his heart or looks too long (exact text escapes me) commits adultery in his heart... now... maybe its me, maybe I'm a perv, I'll admit I wonder what most women look like naked, and sex is a constant feature in almost all we do... even if you're not attracted to your co-worker, you still worry what others may think if you spend too much time together... sex is used to sell everything from beer to gum to web sites. unless I'm focused intently on something I'm doing, its usually in the back of my mind...somewhere... really, we ALL want to know what her tatoo says anyway...

so, given that its pretty much a proven issue that humans are very sexually driven beings, plus the fact that sex sells EVERYTHING, where is the line with this? can anyone say for sure? can elder Joe or CO Bob tell me? even though these people has the same issues (to a greater or lesser degree). what about the teenagers? they may not engage in sex with someone else, but things that are "normal" by one standard, are "unclean" by another...



If we take covetousness as a second example, which I would think logically extends to theivery, greed, and fraudulent activities, how many more (who do not practice fornication, for example) commit these acts? We hear in the news constantly about stolen items, acts of corporate fraud, and the like.[/b]

Isn't it also normal to want more? you make $5 an hour now, but next year, you want $6... is that greed? you want a plasma screen TV... you want this or that... you want a yard for your kids/animals (is there really a difference?), This means a bigger house... does this constitute greed?



I really don't want these types of people in Jehovah's cleansed earth, and so I think that Jehovah should destroy them off. Really, being a loving God does not include literally letting people get away with these things.[/b]

unless of course they can't help it... it seems like everything is an addiction now... smoking, sex, breathing etc... again, what constitutes actions of "free will" and those of addictions? withdrawl is not something your body/mind does willingly... or easily... but it does it because its forced to... also, everyday we blow off the idea that homosexuality is a choice, but there is more and more biological evidence that says its hereditary... what if it is? is it Jack's fault that he was born gay?



Having said this, I also cannot conclude that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved. I do think that the majority of those saved will be Jehovah's Witnesses, but I also feel that there will be exceptions. Why do I say this? Well, for starters, there are those who are not Jehovah's people who do see the atrocities committed, and who do see issues in the world and its problems and who want a solution - and these ones also follow bible standards for the most part, and who do have good morals - although, in my opinion, such people are few, but there are some. I would think that such people are simply unaware of Jehovah's Witnesses or are disillusioned with religion altogether because of the atrocities committed in the name of religion - and let's not even begin to list all of the religious scandals.[/b]

That said, even assuming that all 6 million + JWs are "saved" and ONLY JWs - which again, highly unlikely - thats only 1/1000th of 1% of the world (-ish)... are we so haughty to assume that only this 1/1000th of 1% of the world population is living in WOE, and crying for justice? I think some in Darfur may disagree... and thats also assuming that no JWs lack the faith needed or lead double lives...etc... plus the fact that we are ALL liars... even the most well intentioned person will drop the ball every now and then... sometimes even on purpose...

[Nambo]

Similar to Sketch's point in a way.
Whilst i agree that sexual fornication is not a nice thing, resulting in little lads like the one in the picture being stored alone in a room untill the Childrens homes where ready to have him.
When I look at what really makes Jehovah mad I see instances such as when Issac or was it Jacob using the "town prostitute" just because he happens to pass by and see her, like you dont actually look for one because the minute you see one you just cant help using her?
And what about David and Bathsheaba, and what about Soloman and 1000 sources of sexual pleasure?
All men blessed by God.
No I see God getting mad at giving what belongs to him, Worship and adulation to false gods, and relationships with human governments.

So, when we see how Gods wife (Israel) is aften portrayed as a Harlot, for fornicating with false gods, with thier seminal emmissions like horses.
Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye.
Also consider how the Bible is written in a way that you have to search for its true meaning so that the understanding is not available to anyone wicked.

And what apart from literal fornication is going on now in these last days?
Consider your grandparents generation, when everybody went to church, to worship a Trinity maybe but the people where genuine in thier hearts, but look at today, nobody wants to go to church, but they all want to commit fornication with all these new age spiritual alternatives that are springing up everywhere.
And maybe even football, how Idolatrous is that!

The reasons for destruction I see is getting the the mark of the wild beast 666 for chosing to worship the wild beast rather than Jehovah, an option that will surely be open to all, not just JWs.
But also 2nd Peter 3 says that it is Baptism that corresponds to the salvation of the ark.
Then again what about the sceretary with the ink horn marking those who are moaning and groaning?

In the end I think it will purely be a matter of those who want to be saved for Gods Kingdom being saved, just like the evil-doer next to Jesus on the stake, and those who dont and mock the word of God not being saved, just like the other evil doer.

The sin we are so drawn to, especially when young or in difficult circumstances, Jesus will be able to help us unlearn in the New System, providing that is what we want.
Those perfect ones who are not even tempted to think of the loveliness of Womankind, well maybe they dont even need Jesus.

[stayawake]

Good morning all. just thouht i would throw another twist as to how i understand events.
I guess my thoughts are along the same lines of Lous when it comes to this counterfeit Kingdom
IMHO this counterfeit Kingdom on earth and Gods heavenly Kingdom will both give birth at about the same time. I am not really sure which will be the counterfeit Kingdom, the UN or the eighth king. That remains to be seen.
None the less the counterfeit kingdom (one world goverment) according to scripture will preform wonderious signs which will decieve many, on the other hand Joel also speaks about wonderious signs from the heavens. So we have a repeat Drama here of Pharoh of Egypt and the Greater Moses Christ Jesus.
Those working in Christ behalf are his brothers and sisters, Then will be the revealing of the true sons of God.
Scriptures also tell us unless one takes the mark of the beast (666) that person will not be able to buy or sell.( could mean lifes nessesities) This seems to mean our ,( everyones) alliegence to the earthly counterfeit Kingdom (one world gov)will be DEMANDED.
Of course we as JWs know better.
The then Sons of God will be gifted with signs which will out shine the counterfeit kingdom and this is where the wild beast turns on the sons of GOD. The preaching of the GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM ( that it was set up ) and the blessings bestowed on the anointed ,to preform miricles ,causes the Great crowd to "come out of her my people." Ten taking hold of the skirt of a (spiritual jew), but also reason for the wild beast to attack these Sons of God.( these are the ones who refused to take that mark of the wild beast ,nor give their aliegence to it.. This attack on the faithful anointed is what brings on Armegedden.
Jesus himself tell us how each one will be judged. Not only do we not worship the wild beast(one world conterfeit goverment ) but it is how we treat Christ brothers at that time . They will be running for there lives as each one has to die before Armegedden. The scriptures show us that the holy ones ore riding with Christ Jesues to that battle.
Thats when our protection comes in, (hopefully sooner for us the GC.
The judging is on this basis, in seperating the sheep from the goats (dont matter who you are. ) Jesus said, when i was hungry, naked, in prison,etc > to some it up is If we Did it to the least little ones His brothers we just as much did it for Him
The WT has already befriended the wild beast, becoming a NGO member , so the only anointed left that are living ,that haven't become friends with the wild beast are the eleventh hour workers , but then they themself have to endure to the end.
Paul tells us that , Not all who enters a race receives the prize, it's the one who runs the race to the finish. Like i said this is how i see it all. I only speak for myself .
love stayawake

[Nash]

Hi Jeshurun! :D

Interesting theories, and quite possible. It will be interesting to see how the Great Tribulation finally plays out.

In your last paragraph, I am making the assumption that the 'education' to which you are referring is spiritual education, right?

I too think that the heart condition is important - and what is in our heart will be shown by our actions - whichever way the Great Tribulation plays out.

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Sketch! B)

Let me take this opportunity to welcome you, as I do not believe that I have done so!

Welcome!

---

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my definition of fornication. Basically, it's the common definition of sexual fornication that I was referring to - premarital sex.

I wouldn't put all teens in the same category, though. Sure, it's normal to have sexual desires - it's the way we were made. However, just because some teens can't control themselves doesn't mean that they have no choice in the matter - it takes self-control and restraint. I never committed fornication.

You also mentioned that some things might be normal by one standard and unclean by another - whatever the subject in question, I would hold it up to the bible and lety the bible determine the standard for the subject in question.

I also have a different take on the scripture you mentioned (Matthew 5:27, 28). I think that you are right - we all have a natural desire for sex - some stronger than others. In my view, though, Jesus was talking about adultery, and I don't go beyond what he wrote. He was referring to looking at another man's wife. That clearly is different than looking at a woman who is available - the reason being that if one is looking at another man's wife, then that one desires something that he is not entitled to. In my opinion, I don't think desiring an available woman is wrong, provided that the man and woman in question can get married and one (or both) can control themselves without committing wrongdoing.

See, in my view, Jesus saying that we can't desire a woman makes no sense. Personally, I don't think he meant that, and I don't read the scripture that way. Adultery is a very specific thing.

Of course, we all know that actions start from within (most of the time). So, it is up to us to curb our desires so as not to commit the wrong actions. That is what Jesus was trying to get across. Sexual desire is natural and normal. Satan the Devil has exploited that desire to his advantage. That is what we have to be on guard against, I think.

Wanting more is not the same thing as greed. Merriam Webster defines 'greed' as "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed." Greed contains a selfish element to the 'wanting more' aspect of acquiring something.

Although I don't really agree that people are born homosexual, let's assume that you are stating an established fact and that some can be born homosexual - i.e. it is genetic. (First off, I wold ask how they were born if many in the family are homosexuals.) Even if they were born that way, homosexuality is clearly condemned in the bible. So, if there is a tendency toward the homosexual persuasion, that desire must be fought. It may not be Jack's fault that he was born gay, but he will still have to fight his desire and control himself.

As for your take on JWs being the only ones who live in woe, I certainly didn't say that. I did say that there are some no doubt who are non-JWs who do live in woe and who are longing for something better.

Sketch, I really appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I'd like to discuss this more - but I at least have to get to some of the other replies too!

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Nambo! B)

You bring up some interesting points, sir. I'd like to touch on one.

I think fornication is wrong - period. Colossians 3:5, 6 shows me quite clearly that fornication incurs Jehovah's wrath.

Of course, many make mistakes in this area. But Jesus' ransom applies to those who are genuinely repentant. Jehovah doesn't erase the consequences of the sin (emotional, psychological, spiritual, etc.), but Jehovah forgives.

David was forgiven by Jehovah because he was repentant. Yet, David paid a heavy price for his sin. As for Solomon, well, we know that polygamy was regulated, but he actually disobeyed Jehovah command at Deuteronomy 17:17 where it says that the king "should not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside." Eventually, Solomon lost favor with Jehovah, and, true to the scripture, he turned aside from true worship, he became an oppressive leader, and I doubt that he had Jehovah's blessing near the end of his life.

Thanks for your thoughts, Nambo! I appreciate your post. :)

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Stayawake!

Interesting thoughts!

Thanks for your additions!

Nash

[eyes&ears]

Hi Nash,

Some of my thoughts, :D

I have also come across those who have concluded that Jehovah's love will cause him not to destroy the vast majority of mankind.

Even though I would like to believe that, it just does not seem likely imo.

I always think of Sodom and Gom and Noah's time. Jehovah loved those people also, but he did not love what they were doing and THEY HAD TO GO, ALL OF THEM EXCEPT THOSE WHO WERE APPROVED BY JEHOVAH. PERIOD POINT BLANK.

That certainly does not make Jehovah unloving or a monster god, especially after all the loving warnings he has given manking to allow him to direct their steps. 2Pet 3:9 , Psalms 1:4-6 right now come to my mind.

Our human reasoning and how we think Jehovah is going to act in matters that are clearly spelled out and the examples and warnings that have been left for us shows me that we don't really either know Jehovah's ways, or believe what he is saying. (those who think for ex that Jehovah's love is going to overlook what he says HE WILL NOT OVERLOOK or Cover)

He already told us that his ways are much higher than ours, and his word will accomplish what he desires and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Isaiah 55 8-11 NIV).

I don't know much but it just seems to me when those last plagues express God's anger, it does not sound pretty. I mean come on now (just an expression) kings of the entire inhabited earth, the wild beast, Jehovah's invisible armies, etc. etc. and birds later disposing of slaughtered bodies. My My My. Does not sound like Jehovah is going to allow those who he has found worthy to be protected and allowed to live on a cleansed earth and had to deal with all sorts of STUFF for GENERATIONS now all of a sudden changes his word and says, oh I will only destroy a few. Scriptures do not go in that direction. But just my understanding.

I certainly think it is an exercise in absurdity for anyone to think that
we as JW's have the golden key to everlasting life and everyone else is going to be destroyed.

I do believe that the love Jehovah will extend is what has been expressed by some here, in response to your observations; i.e. Jehovah looks at the heart, 1Samuel 16:7 and Proverbs 21:2 come to mind right now.

It is certainly something to think about also, regarding those who are just skipping along their merry way, perhaps noticing that the scene of this world is changing, especially when it affect them personally, lost of job,
victim of robbery/theft, but still not wanting to understand why these things are happening or what God has to say about it. They care about themselves and their THINGS.

So to me from my understanding of what Jehovah has expressed in his Word, if we know what is right and we don't do it well........James 4:17 We will reap what we sow Ga 6:7.

So if we are fornicating, stealing, lying, cheating, eating ourselves into a coma or whatever, these things are contrary to what Jehovah approves and requires. SO NOW, WE EXPECT HIS LOVE IS ALL OF A SUDDEN GOING TO OVERLOOK THESE THINGS BECAUSE WE THINK SO.

Nope, Jehovah does not work that way. People have been destroyed for this type of sinful behavior. Can you imagine engaging in such filthy conduct and sitting in the congregation like you are pleasing Jehovah. That's disguting.

So as expressed here Jehovah and Jesus will be the final judge, but to even think that Jehovah is going to not do what he says he is going to do because of our human reasoning and our DEFINITION OF LOVE, is not the thinking of ALMIGHTY GOD JEHOVAH.

So I do believe that most of makind will be eliminated during the Battle of Armageddon.

These are just my personal thoughts. Nothing deep or profund. I have a little small pea brain ya'all. OKEY DOKEY.

E & E

[dgibson]

Dear, friends

It's nice to see what people think, and I will join in with my thoughts on this matter of the conculsion of this system of things, along with how, and why it may occur a certain way.


The whole fault started in the heavens with satan, and his soon to become demons.

The result of their actions started a snow ball of unrighteousness that would plague mankind, until all answers to questions raised by satan, in the garden of eden were answered, so no repeated mutiny will ever be ever tolerated from the heavens again. Then, also, time also was needed for a ransom (Jesus) that was to be paid, to buy back all mankind from the death sentence of sin and imperfection, that was being passed down through generations, and even buy back the dead themselves. The ransom paid for (ALL) of mankind, not for any of the angels, and not just for the JW's, but for all of mankind.

The angels have kept on living, but mankind was subject to death. They have watched from the begining of mankinds existence, and sin, all the details Jehovah has been working out, including his accurately forecasting of events in his written word the bible.

Jehovah has also allowed many who have lived, to read his written word, and it has spoken to all of mankind, who wishes to read it.

The unforunate thing is, many people grow up in other religions, and backgrounds.

Are they to be sentenced to an eternal death, because they happen to refuse to listen to someone at their door one afternoon to a person of another faith?

Surely you can see, that peoples faiths, and traditions, held so dear, are the core of many conflicts amongst all the peoples of the earth, and has been since Cain & Abel.

Jehovah has made a loving provision for everyone, and even those who loose their lives in wars, famines, accidental shootings, suicide, plagues, are all covered under this payment. Just because satan has influenced everyone from birth, with many stumbling blocks, and veils of blindness, that doesn't remove this coverage. Does it?

Jehovah is the one, that will at the right moment, during the GT, and arrmagendon, determine who's worth saving, and who cannot be reformed, no matter if all the stumbling blocks have been removed, perfection restored, and they have been re-educated completely.

Jehovah will judge everyone with true, loving kindness, and sympathy, knowing that it was his original heavenly creation, that was the downhill start or push. and satan and his demons have been trying to ruin everyone's personal behavior, especially those who are to replace him (the 144,000), and his band of thugs in the heavens, since the begining of this big game of who's the boss of our righteousness/unrighteousness began, you know? with him telling Eve a lie.

That is why some will be left in the field, and some will be taken away for saving by the angels of the heavens.

But this is only at the very last moment before his anger is poured out on the nations. Just like when Lot and his family were being rescued, just before the fire came raining down. It may be within days or possibly hours before he puts the last remaining wicked souls to death forever, without any hope for a resurrection, or second chance. That is why, it will be so important, that they know when they have signed their own death warrant. A voice will possibly tell them inside their own heads, or maybe a dream will tell them, or maybe a visitor will help let them know, that if they do this, or that, that they WILL BE in complete oposition to Jehovahs will, and his future plans for mankind, and they will know that they have aligned themselves with the nations, and that they have completely denied the exitence of any heavenly creator or God, and have placed all their faith in their earthly means, and/ or machinery, to overcome any heavenly event to destroy them forever.

It will sneak up on some like noahs flood, but to many keeping watch, it will be refreshing to be kept safe within Jehovahs guardianship.

I think very few, now living, will actually get to that point, I believe countless millions, will be colateral damage from food storages, nuclear war, dieases, Guns, crazy people with guns, and of course old age, before the actual great saving of the last valuable mankind remnants occurs. That will be just before we almost destroy ourselves, and the globe, at the same time.

Love
Dgibson

[Jeshurun]

In your last paragraph, I am making the assumption that the 'education' to which you are referring is spiritual education, right?

Nash[/b]

Yes, brother Nash, I did mean spiritual, and I did mean the truth based on the most accurate knowledge available. There are plenty of those working for Satan who believe they are discovering vital spiritual truths also.

On this fornication issue, I can personally confess to you and all here on this board that, 14 years ago, after a heartbreaking divorce and an even further heartwrenching experience at the hands of some unscrupulous elders, I embarked on a 3-year rampage of immorality. I would use Solomon and his concubines as a rational excuse. And I would also use the excuse that it was the elders that made it impossible for me to have a wife in the truth in the first place, which is why I got divorced. I was never more depressed in my life, and became enslaved to the lifestyle. Bad move, but vital learning. The saddest part is that, compared to some other people I was associating with at the time, I was pretty tame. It's absolute madness out there, and anything goes, and people's morals are being eroded to unbelievable depths. And the fruitage of immorality is a complete loss of self-esteem, and a complete disregard for the hearts and self-esteem of the "conquests". Yes, that's how they view women, conquests, notches on the belt, like a big immorality contest. And this is the way of the world. And mind you, I was merely "normal", I never even thought of doing things outside of my own home, or multiple partners and crazy things like that. There's a whole world of completely unnatural stuff out there, and Sodom and Gomorra (sic?) have enveloped the earth.

But Jehovah forgives those who repent, and even "forgets" those things. How blessed we are to have such a God.

Lou

[Berean]

Excellent points have been made all around, and I don't have to go through the trouble of writing down what I think, since these quotes pretty much sum up what I was going to say:

The unforunate thing is, many people grow up in other religions, and backgrounds.

Are they to be sentenced to an eternal death, because they happen to refuse to listen to someone at their door one afternoon to a person of another faith?[/b]


That is why some will be left in the field, and some will be taken away for saving by the angels of the heavens.[/b]

Salvation does not depend on being associated with a certain religious group, but on what is in your heart, and only Jehovah and Jesus can see into our hearts to determine who deserves to be saved.

[stayawake]

Hi Lou,
thank you for the take on your life, You are living proof that Jah forgives in a large way. Your posts show that you got it all together, :rolleyes: which is also proof that Jah is searching the hearts, where the shepherds may have failed.
In Jahs new arrangement the scales of justice will be balanced. No more sighing or crying.
love stayawake

[Shibboleth]

Jehovah has also allowed many who have lived, to read his written word, and it has spoken to all of mankind, who wishes to read it.

The unforunate thing is, many people grow up in other religions, and backgrounds.

Are they to be sentenced to an eternal death, because they happen to refuse to listen to someone at their door one afternoon to a person of another faith?

Surely you can see, that peoples faiths, and traditions, held so dear, are the core of many conflicts amongst all the peoples of the earth, and has been since Cain & Abel.[/b]

which is why Jehovah destroys Babylon the Great first. It will shake people awake. Some people can't or won't be shaken. Some will continue to lead the same lifestyle and not heed that last vital warning to the people.

As others have stated, Jehovah and Jesus will view the heart. They will also protect those seeking their help.

regards,

Shibboleth

[Nambo]

Hi Nambo! B)

You bring up some interesting points, sir. I'd like to touch on one.

I think fornication is wrong - period. Colossians 3:5, 6 shows me quite clearly that fornication incurs Jehovah's wrath.

Of course, many make mistakes in this area. But Jesus' ransom applies to those who are genuinely repentant. Jehovah doesn't erase the consequences of the sin (emotional, psychological, spiritual, etc.), but Jehovah forgives.

David was forgiven by Jehovah because he was repentant. Yet, David paid a heavy price for his sin. As for Solomon, well, we know that polygamy was regulated, but he actually disobeyed Jehovah command at Deuteronomy 17:17 where it says that the king "should not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside." Eventually, Solomon lost favor with Jehovah, and, true to the scripture, he turned aside from true worship, he became an oppressive leader, and I doubt that he had Jehovah's blessing near the end of his life.

Thanks for your thoughts, Nambo! I appreciate your post. :)

Nash[/b]

Hi Nash and all,

Theres still something Iam trying to get my head around.

Firstly, Iam not condoneing or saying Fornication is ok, it plainly says Fornicators will not inherit the Kingdom of God,

Iam trying to work out why its stated as the thing that brings the Wrath of God, I would have thought greedy Internatioal bankers and multinationals who leave half the world starving and sell depleted uranium weapons that cause babies to be born with thier brains on the outside of thier heads more worthy of wrath than fornicators who it is said, sin against themselves, though seeing the results of the ruined lives of illigitemate Children I do not completely agree with this.

The David and Bathsheba incident was probably not a good choice I made as David sinned in a few ways, covertousness and then getting her husband killed so he could take his property, but with Soloman, he didnt lose Jehovahs favour because of his sexual greed and Idolatry, (well he couldnt have been in Love with all those women, could he?), no it was because as you said Nash, "he turned aside from true worship".

So, my point being, if Jehovahs Wrath is coming for just literal fornication, why no indication of it in the Old Testament, its not even in the 10 commandments.
Yet Spiritual Fornication does bring Gods wrath and also, sexual terms are often used for Spiritual meanings, ie, the 144,000 are said to be "Virgins" who have not "defiled themselves with women", yet this is never looked on as being literal or though it plainly reads as such.

Views welcome, though please nobody think Iam trying to say Fornications ok.

[Jeshurun]

Don't worry Nambo, I know that you are not a divisive agent sent from the Bilderberg branch of the Illuminati. Not after that description of those babies, (yikes).

I think God's wrath is coming because there are 6 and a half billion people on the earth, and about 99.9999 percent of them could care less about him, because they show no inclination to question anything taught to them, when whatever religion it is, could not possibly answer the most basic questions about our Creator, like what is really his name and what he intends to do to fix this earth. But instead, they look to men to fill their daily needs, are satisfied with 70 years of misery and sickness, and are content with some abstract idea of their soul moving on to some other dimension after death where they will meet the supreme being. Or in some extreme cases, that they will be met by 72 virgins. (Which is more than likely just more propaganda from the Bonesmen lol)

As Shibboleth has said, that's why the religions have to go. There has to be more survivors than what it now seems to be. Lots of stuff yet to be decided folks.

Luv ya Nambo

[Kenneth]

The question of who survives Armageddon is one of conjecture. We may ask ourselves how big is a great crowd? Those who die at in the final war suffer eternal damnation as they have received the mark of the beast.

"This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength"

So will there be a genocide? Many will die during the GT and those who do will no doubt receive a resurrection as death has cancell's out sins. As for the rest of mankind there will be such angelic active on the earth during the second fulfillment of Joel prophecy when Jehovah pours out his spirit on his people that many 'nations will take hold, of the skirt of a man who is a Jew', and say "We will go with YOU people, for we have heard that God is with YOU people."'"

As for the rest there will be no excuses as they will know that a prophet has been in their mist, either they are for Jehovah or the Devil. So how big is the Great Crowd?

Who knows?

kenneth

[Nash]

Hi Eyes and Ears! B)

It seems that we are on the same page, here. Jehovah destroys the wicked after they have been given notice to change their ways.

I still think that there is a small difference with today's situation, however. Evidently, in Noah's time, the entire population (except Noah's family) was bad. Similarly, Jehovah could not find ten righteous men in Sodom and Gomorrah. In our day, however, I would think that there would be a small number of those who would not be Jehovah's Witnesses and yet be saved. (Of course, that does not mean that all 'Jehovah's Witnesses' would be saved either.)

These are just my thoughts. I could certainly be wrong as well! In the final analysis, we simply have to endure. Jehovah and Jesus do the judging and read our hearts.

Thanks for your excellent comments!

Nash B)

[Nash]

Hi dgibson! :D

Thanks for adding your thoughts here.

I wholehaertedly agree that precedents are being set. Never again will Jehovah allow rebellion - time and time again it has been shown that straying from Jehovah's ways only results in disaster.

I doubt that Jehovah would destroy someone just because they refused to listen once. Personally, I think that such a case would be a rarity. People know who Jehovah's Witnesses are. We are the subject of jokes, condescending remarks, slander, etc. In my view, people are somewhat aware of who we are and what we represent even if we only knocked on their door on one occasion. But you're right - Jehovah (and Jesus) will do the judging, which certainly is good, since they see everything and have an overview of all the aspects that are important for their decision. We as humans could not possible have complete information about everyone.

Thanks for your thoughts, dgibson!

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Jeshurun! :)

Thanks for the clarification.

Rest assured that Jehovah sees all - elders who beat the sheep will have to account for their actions.

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Berean! B)

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for contributing to this thread!

I would say that being associated with Jehovah's Witnesses plays a large part in being saved. Which other organization teaches the truth today? If we look at the other religious groups, can we honestly say that their adherents are following Jehovah's commands?

Ultimately, Jehovah and Jesus will decide.

Nash

[Nash]

Thanks for your words of encouragement, Stayawake! :)

You make an excellent point, as well, Shibboleth. B)

Thanks for the contributions.

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Nambo!

I understand and agree with what you are saying. Perhaps I was a bit unclear. I am not saying that it is only fornication that displeases Jehovah. I was simply quoting what Colossians 3:5, 6 says - it mentions things that incur Jehovah's wrath.

Of the things that you mention, I have no doubt that those things incur Jehovah's displeasure also. The apostle Paul obviously couldn't list every single thing that would incense Jehovah - he touched on some of the more widespread issues - but what you mention is just as valid, I would say.

Nash

[Nash]

Hi again, Jeshurun! :)

After reading post #18, I think that you hit the nail on the head, for the most part.

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Kenneth! :D

Thanks for your contributions here.

While it certainly is possible that many may die during the Great Tribulation, for some reason I have in the back of my mind that Jehovah's Witnesses (those of the great crowd - not the anointed) will somehow be protected. But, I could be wrong.

Nash B)

[Berean]

I would say that being associated with Jehovah's Witnesses plays a large part in being saved. Which other organization teaches the truth today? If we look at the other religious groups, can we honestly say that their adherents are following Jehovah's commands?[/b]
Well, it's true that our organization comes closest to the way of truth, so you obviously would associate with a group that tries best to follow Jehovah's commandments. However, what I meant was that not all those who say 'Lord, Lord' et cetera - in other words, not all those who are associated with our organization - will be saved, simply because belonging to a group doesn't necessarily mean your heart is with it. On the other hand I also believe that people will be saved who aren't associated with our organization, if only people from countries like Afghanistan and North Korea. Of course it is much easier to keep your faith if you associate with fellow Christians who do not believe in unscriptural teachings, so, like you said, being associated with Jehovah's Witnesses does play a large part in being able to be saved.

[Nash]

Hi Berean! :D

I can agree with this; in fact, what you mention is one of the issues that I brought up in my original post. Some can claim that they are Jehovah's Witnesses and be active in the congregation, yet they could be leading a double life. Therefore, such a person's form of worship is more than likely futile.

On the other hand, I am sure that there will also be some who will be saved who are not associated with our organization. In my opinion, however, I don't believe that that number will be large.

Then again, we cetrainly don't have all the facts. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. What we can do is make sure that we personally are doing the best we can!

Great to have your perspective on this matter and your comments! :)

Nash

[Cephalon]

On the other hand, I am sure that there will also be some who will be saved who are not associated with our organization. In my opinion, however, I don't believe that that number will be large.

Nash[/b]

I agree. I believe that after the fall of BTG or after the true sons of God are revealed, a number of people will accept the truth (thus a number no one knows or can count)
Could it be because there won't be the WT to give us a count? no field service reports? No annual worldwide report? :unsure:

Just some wild thoughts

[Nash]

Hi Cephalon! B)

Just to add on to your wild thoughts, here - when Jesus was on earth he was perorming miracles and yet the vast majority of people didn't follow him. In fact, many of Jesus disciples, after hearing something that Jesus taught, "went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him" (John 6:66).

There wasn't a mass conversion in the first century; in my opinion, I doubt there will be one in our time. Of course, many will 'turn to Jehovah' but probably not in sincerity; Jehovah and Jesus will see people's heart conditions. But, I do think that there will be a small number (respective to the world population and perhaps even to Jehovah's people as a whole) who will turn to Jehovah in sincerity. I guess we'll have to wait and see!

Good to have your thoughts on this, Cephalon! :)

Good to see you on the board, too.

Nash

[jammin4]

It would seem that those of us who have had the unique opportunity to put into practice Jehovah's righteous requirements will be at a distinct advantage to survive H. At that time, it will be a spiritual conflict between God's armies and Satan's. Those that have been practicing things adverse to God's requirements will not survive...and it may not be directly because of angelic execution, but rather by their choices in the predicaments brought on by that final war. (Remember the Bible account where the armies turned on themselves and killed one another?!)

On the other hand, I recall many people who are victims of their own imperfections or at the hands of others, who now find themselves literally out of their minds. If my acquaintance of the 60s who was residing on a mental ward and trying to sleep with her sunglasses on upright in bed at night because she was still tripping on acid is still there...or countless others like her...how is Jehovah to judge such a one? How many more rendered immobile and virtually helpless incarcerated - sometimes (or oftentimes?) unjustly - in prison cells throughout the world. How is Jehovah to judge those? What about those others who are physically incapacitated due to some horrid illness and unable to indicate by their actions or even a knowledgeable heart condition?

None of us are in any position to be able to judge or come to any decisions about who will survive and who won't. Each of us who is blessed with the opportunity to learn intelligibly and respond heartfeltly (word?) to Jehovah's truth and love will be judged - and rightfully so - accordingly. I know that where I fall short unknowingly that Jesus" ransom will cover it. But when I do so willfully and knowingly, I will have to answer for it. I could go on and on...bottom line is I have a lot to answer for and I pray for Jehovah's mercy based on my heart condition. Yet I do not presume to be found allowed to live in the new system, although I long for it...

[Warren]

<div align="left">I&#39;m a third generation JW. My grandfather became a JW back in the 1930&#39;s when there were only about 50,000 JW&#39;s worldwide. At that time he and all the other JW&#39;s thought armageddon was coming any day. It didn&#39;t seem to bother the JW&#39;s of that era that vast areas of the world hadn&#39;t been preached to and that these people were facing eternal destruction

Same goes for my parents. They were active when there were about a million JW&#39;s worldwide. They also thought armageddon was coming any day even though many countries hadn&#39;t been preached too to any extent. They were told by the Society that these unreached people that were in counties where the work was banned, fell under "community responsibility" and that seemed to satisfiy them.

I came in during the time that many JW&#39;s thought armageddon would come by 1975. During this time most JW&#39;s didn&#39;t seem concerned that only about 2 million JW&#39;s were going to be saved and billions of people that never heard the Kingdom message were doomed. Since 1975 an additional 4 million persons have become JW&#39;s but earth&#39;s population has increased at least another billion. </div>

<div align="left">Certainly more persons will become JW&#39;s before the end of this system but it also appears that a couple of billion people will not hear the kingdom message before the end. In fact, the Society admits this when commenting on Jesus&#39; words at Matt 10:23 </div>

I find the idea that persons that never hear the Kingdom message are going to suffer eternal destruction to be unfair and unjust. I hope it&#39;s not true.

[Nambo]

On the other hand, I recall many people who are victims of their own imperfections or at the hands of others, who now find themselves literally out of their minds. If my acquaintance of the 60s who was residing on a mental ward and trying to sleep with her sunglasses on upright in bed at night because she was still tripping on acid is still there...or countless others like her...how is Jehovah to judge such a one? How many more rendered immobile and virtually helpless incarcerated - sometimes (or oftentimes?) unjustly - in prison cells throughout the world. How is Jehovah to judge those? What about those others who are physically incapacitated due to some horrid illness and unable to indicate by their actions or even a knowledgeable heart condition?[/b]

Hi Jammin, maybe it will be that those who actually chose to reject Gods Kingdom in favour of worshipping the wold beast will be the ones Jehovah has to destroy, the people you describe are not in a position to say no to Jehovah so maybe they can be treated the same as those who died previously and will be given the chance in the resurrection to chose Jehovah?

[Nash]

Hi Heather and Nambo! :)

Thanks for contributing and I appreciate the points brought out here.

I think in situations in which Heather describes it is ultimately Jehovah&#39;s decision (and Jesus&#39; decision) as their vantage point is superior to our own. Nambo makes a good point - there may be many who are not really able to decide and to choose because of certain illnesses. Thank goodness that Jehovah sees all.

Another good point as you brought out Heather is that many people may (and will) act during the Great Tribulation that will show who and what type of people they really are. I think that many people&#39;s heart conditions will really show.

Nash

[Nash]

Hi Warren! :)

Deuteronomy 32:4 says that "all [Jehovah&#39;s] ways are justice."

If Jehovah does destroy billions of people who have never heard the kingdom message, he and Jesus will have judged fairly and will have read their hearts extremely accurately; of that we can be sure.

Nash

[Warren]

In the past, Jehovah always warned people and gave them a chance to repent before executing his judgment on them. He didn&#39;t use his fore-knowledge and/or read their hearts as the basis for judging them. I therefore remain skeptical that Jehovah will ETERNALLY destroy billions of people that have not heard the Kingdom message. If this indeed occurs then I will have to assume that Jehovah decided to employ a different method/standard to judge people living today than he did in the past. I can live with that but I don&#39;t find it the least bit satisfying.

[Nash]

Hi Warren! B)

Unless I am misunderstanding the scriptures, I don&#39;t recall the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah receiving a warning.

What&#39;s your take on this?

Nash

[Jeshurun]

If Jehovah does destroy billions of people who have never heard the kingdom message, he and Jesus will have judged fairly and will have read their hearts extremely accurately; of that we can be sure.[/b]

Hi Nash

I agree with you brother, always keeping in mind that Jehovah will have to step in and stop the rampage of the modern Chaldean. It&#39;s man that will end up killing billions, and Jehovah will have to "cut those days short", to "bring to ruin those ruining the earth".

So I also have complete faith that Jehovah will be fair and will completely exonerate himself before the world, and at the same time glorify himself in a way that we can&#39;t even imagine.

Lou

[stayawake]

Hi Warren! B)

Unless I am misunderstanding the scriptures, I don&#39;t recall the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah receiving a warning.

What&#39;s your take on this?

Nash[/b]




The Society has gone back and forth on that several times since 1965. that the inhabitants would/would not be in the reserrection.
BUT
The scriptures say the "CITIES Sodom and Gomorrah " were distroyed.
BUT IMHO the sentence was carried out by Jehovah Himself, and fire always denotes total distruction,
BUT on the other hand should they be in the unrightious reserrection, unless they do a turn about face they won&#39;t be with us long.
Isaiah assures us then if one refuses to change, that although" 100 years old they will be a mere boy when they die.", one hundred years compared to everlasing life would be a mere boy. So no matter how Jah handles this we know it will be JUST
love stayawake

[Shibboleth]

Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, when Abraham asked Jehovah if he would destroy the Districts if there were righteous men in it, Jehovah said he wouldn&#39;t if he found 50. Abraham then whittled it down to 10. I am pretty sure Jehovah did look at the hearts of all the people there before he destroyed it. It also solidified His judgement when he sent two angels there. The thing about Sodom and Gomorrah that many people don&#39;t realize is, that they were not just destroyed because of their sexual depravity. Those cities also were not hospitable. Hospitality plays a big part with Jehovah. Before the cities were destroyed when Jehovah and the 2 angels met with Abraham, Abraham was very hospitable to them. He made them something to eat and made them feel welcome. Sodom and Gomorrah did not. If you read the accounts before this about when Abraham saved the Kings of Sodom and Gomorrah&#39;s butts, they didn&#39;t praise him or even really thank him. Instead it was the King of Salem (future Jerusalem), Melchizedek the priest of the Most High God, that actually praised Abraham and showed hospitality towards him.

I say Sodom and Gomorrah got what was coming to them.


Regards,

Shibboleth

[Gabriel]

Wow..This is a very sobering topic. So many things in my life that im still working on and trying to get right/clean up. My hope is that Jehovah during the GREAT TRIBULATION. will give me that finnal oppertunity to prove whats really in my heart. If he goes based on the things that I struggle with now I dont stand a chance. Many of us do to imperfection suffer a lot more with certain issues than others such as things that pertain to the flesh. And lets admit it. Many of our dear friends....Many we know personaly...perhaps even ourselves Fight very hard in this area with limited success. If this is what warrents destruction...because of the inability to weed this out completely many of us...including self dont stand a chance.

I cant live everyday in fear of destruction. All any of us can do is hope that Jehovah not only takes into concideration our heart condition but also gives us the strenght to keep trying although we fail many times. Regardless of what happens, Ive always asked Jehovah to clean house even if it means cleaning me out with it.

[stayawake]

[quote]
Wow..This is a very sobering topic. So many things in my life that im still working on and trying to get right/clean up. My hope is that Jehovah during the GREAT TRIBULATION. will give me that finnal oppertunity to prove whats really in my heart. If he goes based on the things that I struggle with now I dont stand a chance.



Dear little Value,
we all have to face that final test, there fore we will ALL be given the grand opperturniy of showing all including Jah what is in our hearts. There is coming the time when a SUPER choice will be pushed.
It will be then that we will really be faced with the issue as to whom do we belong. Ones decision at that given time will mark us for life or death.
It will be then that the TWO GREATEST commandments that Jesue said were the greatest will play a great roll in our life.
IMHO, James says it best," Draw close to JEhovah and He will draw close to you"
love stayawake

[Warren]

Hi Warren! B)

Unless I am misunderstanding the scriptures, I don&#39;t recall the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah receiving a warning.

What&#39;s your take on this?

Nash[/b]


Matt 11:23-24 where he says: </div>

<div align="left">"And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Hades you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this very day. Consequently I say to you people, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on Judgment day than for you."</div>

From 1965 to 1989 the Society took these words of Jesus to mean the Sodomites would receive a resurrection but have since changed their mind and now claim Jesus was using hyperbole. I think this is utter nonsense. In any event, the Society doesn&#39;t dispute that the inhabitants of Capernaum are coming back in the resurrection and these people rejected Jesus to his face. So are we to believe that persons that rejected Jesus in person are coming back but the poor rice farmer in China that knows nothing of Jesus and the Kingdom message is doomed to eternal destruction when Armageddon comes? Something is wrong with this picture.

[Cephalon]

: <div align="left">[/b][/quote]</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Of course not. That&#39;s why the Bible says there will a resurrection of the righteous ones and of the unrighteous ones which I think includes persons that have not been given the opportunity to accept Jesus and do Jehovah&#39;s will.


</div>

[Shibboleth]

Jude

7 (http://) So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.[/b]

Pretty much sums up that Sodom and Gomorrah had already been judged.

[Nambo]

Wow..This is a very sobering topic. So many things in my life that im still working on and trying to get right/clean up. My hope is that Jehovah during the GREAT TRIBULATION. will give me that finnal oppertunity to prove whats really in my heart. If he goes based on the things that I struggle with now I dont stand a chance. Many of us do to imperfection suffer a lot more with certain issues than others such as things that pertain to the flesh. And lets admit it. Many of our dear friends....Many we know personaly...perhaps even ourselves Fight very hard in this area with limited success. If this is what warrents destruction...because of the inability to weed this out completely many of us...including self dont stand a chance.

I cant live everyday in fear of destruction. All any of us can do is hope that Jehovah not only takes into concideration our heart condition but also gives us the strenght to keep trying although we fail many times. Regardless of what happens, Ive always asked Jehovah to clean house even if it means cleaning me out with it.[/b]

I know where you are coming from Littlevalue and its probably the main reason I cannot go back to the Witnesses who demand that only well people are allowed to visit the great doctor that is Jesus.

But I seem to remember Jesus saying that it is sick ones who need a doctor and that he came to call sinners to repentace, even if you cannot help being a sinner every single day, as long as you are repentant and really want God to "cure" you.
I think if you have that attitude rather than the societies teaching that you are so disgusting that Jehovah does want you, you will be drawn to Jehovah and Jesus by Love, by the fact though dirty leper that you are, Jesus still wants to give you a hug.

If you where Jehovah, and Jehovah where you, would you kill Jehovah because of whatever you are having a problem with?
And be assurred Jehovah has paid a high price for you in the form of his beloved son.

Love them both even if you are not worthy to get through and beat your breast whilst not even daring to raise your eyes to the sky, be assurred Littlevalue, that Jehovah views genuine Love for him, with high value, even if it comes from the lowest of the low.

[Juan]

<div align="left">I&#39;m a third generation JW. My grandfather became a JW back in the 1930&#39;s when there were only about 50,000 JW&#39;s worldwide. At that time he and all the other JW&#39;s thought armageddon was coming any day. It didn&#39;t seem to bother the JW&#39;s of that era that vast areas of the world hadn&#39;t been preached to and that these people were facing eternal destruction

Same goes for my parents. They were active when there were about a million JW&#39;s worldwide. They also thought armageddon was coming any day even though many countries hadn&#39;t been preached too to any extent. They were told by the Society that these unreached people that were in counties where the work was banned, fell under "community responsibility" and that seemed to satisfiy them.

I came in during the time that many JW&#39;s thought armageddon would come by 1975. During this time most JW&#39;s didn&#39;t seem concerned that only about 2 million JW&#39;s were going to be saved and billions of people that never heard the Kingdom message were doomed. Since 1975 an additional 4 million persons have become JW&#39;s but earth&#39;s population has increased at least another billion.

<div align="left">Certainly more persons will become JW&#39;s before the end of this system but it also appears that a couple of billion people will not hear the kingdom message before the end. In fact, the Society admits this when commenting on Jesus&#39; words at Matt 10:23 </div>

I find the idea that persons that never hear the Kingdom message are going to suffer eternal destruction to be unfair and unjust. I hope it&#39;s not true.

[/b][/quote]

Hi Warren,

There is information on the mailbag at the e-W site that may answer some of your queries. It&#39;s in the 3rd question.

http://e-watchman.com/mailbag/2004/march-21-2004.html

[Nash]

Thanks once again all for your contributions on the thread. I wish I could have replied sooner.

Coming back to my point with respect to Sodom and Gomorrah, I was trying to make the point that they did not receive a warning before they were destroyed; however, my other point was that Jehovah had judged them based on their heart condition and their actions. As for Stayawake&#39;s point concerning whether or not they will be resurrected, I believe that they will not be resurrected.

And I agree with Shibboleth - they got what was coming to them. Extending this thought to out day, I believe that our world is actually worse that Sodom and Gomorrah was. So, I do not believe that every single person will receive a witness before Armageddon comes. Even if every single person were to hear the message, there will probably not be a mass conversion, even when the facts of what is about to happen are staring at people in the face.

Littlevalue, I also would like to mention that we all struggle with imperfections of one sort or another. Jehovah is certainly aware of that. Remember that there is a difference between being weak and being wicked. The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, and many to most in the world are wicked. They do not care about what God thinks or wants. They wish to do as they please. They don&#39;t take God into consideration. They do not see that they live immorally and many make excuses and justify their way of life and the things that they do.

Warren and Cephalon - I will defer my comments for another thread that will address your points.

Juan - as I earlier mentioned, I believe that even if some do not hear the message, I believe that Jehovah will look at those people&#39;s actions and their heart conditions and render the correct judgment. In any case, Jehovah will not judge wrong no matter how the Great Tribulation, the judgment, and Armageddon play out.

Nash

[Shibboleth]

People have to remember that Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed solely becuase of immorality. They were destroyed because they forgot the true God and they became very inhospitable to people. Because of the lack of hospitality and the lack of being a righteous district, Jehovah saw fit to destroy them. He gave them a chance when the angels came to the cities but they instead wanted to harm them and molest them. Lot was a hospitable host. He took them in.

Jehovah isn&#39;t a rash God who just judges people without a reason. He gave the people of Ninevah a chance by sending Jonah to that city. Was Ninevah any better off then the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah? Yeah. Jehovah looked into their hearts and saw that they could turn their ways if given the chance.

We don&#39;t know all the details of what went down in Sodom and Gomorra. We just get snippets of two cities and their story. We don&#39;t get the whole picture. But what we get is evidence of Jehovah&#39;s judgements against a people that want to do bad all the time.

[Nash]

I like your reasoning here Shibboleth. The fact that people are ignoring what God thinks and wants is, in my opinion, a very key issue. Today, as Jeshurun had earlier mentioned, people couldn&#39;t care less about what Jehovah wants or thinks. This, in my view, will be a key factor in the judging of mankind before Armageddon comes.

Another point that I appreciated was the fact that you mentioned that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to do bad all the time. This is the same thing that we see today. People may not believe that they themselves are evil per se, but the scripture at Ephesians 4:17 shows that they probably never will understand the evils that they do, for the scripture says that people have come "to be past all moral sense."

Nash

[Shibboleth]

I have done alot of research on the areas of Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a great special on History channel on those two cities. you can rent it from netflix and maybe blockbuster.

It is well worth watching. they also gave some clues as to how those cities were destroyed. We know that Jehovah destroyed them and he would have used natural elements to bring about that destruction. It was said that they lived on a natural gas field and that pockets of this gas seeped into the city and a fire caused explosions and it would look like fire from heaven. It was quite interesting and a must see.

It was also said that the people of those districts were very unrespectful towards those who had little. They tortured the poor and didn&#39;t help them. They also did virgin sacrifices to pagan gods and did alot of nasty things.

I like the fact that Abraham stuck up for those cities when he asked Jehovah to find 10 righteous men there. Abraham had a relationship with those cities since he saved their butts from Chedleomer(sp?). He knew the kings of those districts very well, I am sure. He knew that Jehovah wouldn&#39;t just blindly go in and kill everyone without seeing for himself if they had righteous intentions.

We may think it sounds cruel to kill women and children along with the men, but it was done for a purpose. Those children were being bred to be the next generation of dissidents. I know when Jehovah destroys the wicked here on earth we can be sure it will be a proper judgement.

Shibboleth

[stayawake]

Hi Shibboleth
I too seen a documentry on those cites a few years back.
I thought it quit interesting how eliments of our knowledge was used , yet it seemed like fire and brimstone fell from the heavens just as the scriptures say

If i remember correctly. when Jah told Abraham his intentions of distroying the cities ,it was then that Abraham, asked him to search the hearts ,that surely he could find some rightous, of course Abrahams concern was for his nephew Lot.
Our JUST God Jehovah did just that, and look at what he came up with. A total of three . Thus proving the people were wicked.
No doubt Lots wife enjoyed her suroundings, as she looked back after ,Jah said they were not to look back.
Oh , one may say ,""that was awful to turn her into stone, just for looking back, after all its human nature to be curious.""
JAH CAN read the hearts and i must go along with the WT thoughts on this subject,and that is ,""She looked back longingly."
love stayawake

[Nash]

We may think it sounds cruel to kill women and children along with the men, but it was done for a purpose. Those children were being bred to be the next generation of dissidents. I know when Jehovah destroys the wicked here on earth we can be sure it will be a proper judgement.[/b]

Well said.

Nash

[SlaveForJah]

Hello folks.

This was a topic that I had wanted to start for a while now but never got around to it. So, here goes.

Many who were once Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses but have left the truth, many who are not Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, and many who cling to some/many of the teachings of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses believe that God, in his love, will not destroy many of earth&#39;s inhabitants at Armageddon. It also seems to me that many believe that because God is love, God will not destroy billions of people in a battle like Armageddon. In other words, from what I understand from what these individuals post on discussion forums, they would agree that Jehovah will destroy certain individuals at Armageddon, but, from what I understand, the destruction will not be as numerous, so to speak, as the WTS portrays. This is what I understand from reading what these people have to say on various forums, more or less.

I thought that I woould give my view on the situation. Please feel free to contribute your thoughts, as I would like to see what opinions people have on this subject.

My view is that the majority of the world&#39;s inhabitants will be destroyed. I do think, however, that the Society&#39;s view that only Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses will be saved is somewhat flawed, since it seems that they reason that only those in the spiritual ark (i.e. within Jehovah&#39;s organization) will be saved.


Nash[/b]

Hello Brother Nash,

Is this still your view?

Curious

SlaveForJah

[Nash]

Hi SlaveForJah,

I&#39;ve finally been able to sit down and to look this thread over.

This was my original view:

"My view is that the majority of the world&#39;s inhabitants will be destroyed. I do think, however, that the Society&#39;s view that only Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses will be saved is somewhat flawed, since it seems that they reason that only those in the spiritual ark (i.e. within Jehovah&#39;s organization) will be saved."

Basically, I must admit that my understanding of future events was incomplete at the time that this topic was started. I did not fully understand the implications of what some of the prophecies were saying - although now I have an even better understanding. In fact, I have been doing some intense deep bible research in the last few weeks and I will be continuing this for a while.

I didn&#39;t fully appreciate at the time the thread was started the situation with respect to the future preaching work, although I do understand it now. Certainly, the preaching work which is now being undertaken is serving a purpose, but the future work (which probably won&#39;t take as long) will also be for a purpose. Having that in mind, I would say that my view has not really changed, but the logic with which I derived my view has changed. I still believe that some presently in the organization will not survive, because they are still living double lives. When the time comes to make a choice, Jehovah will not be fooled if they claim to want to follow Jehovah yet in their hearts they do not want to follow Jehovah&#39;s laws. As for those presently outside the organization, they too will be given a chance to make a choice - but there probably will not be some mass conversion. Jehovah and Jesus will be able to read hearts at the time of judging, so the judging will be perfect.

Since the organization will not exist - at least not in its current form - I doubt that salvation will be based on who is in the so-called spiritual ark&#39; of the organization - but the salvation will be based on other standards, one of which would be the heart condition of the individual, I would think.

Besides, at this point in time, it wouldn&#39;t make any sense for Jehovah to destroy all those outside the organization, would it? How can Jehovah destroy the righteous with the wicked? Will he destroy those who have been stumbled by the lies of the WTS? It is an undeniable fact that the WTS has stumbled tens of thousands of people - not simply those in the organization, but also those outside who do not want to associate with the organization and be baptized because of the WTS&#39; atrocities. (Don&#39;t get me started on those! I could go on for months!)

I hope that this answers your question, SlaveForJah.

Have a nice day!

Nash :)

[Alex]

Following on from Nash&#39;s comments I am reminded of a sister&#39;s comments to me who felt everyone has had the opportunity to either accept or reject the message JW&#39;s bring them, thereby deciding their fate as far as Armageddon is concerned.

But have they? Have they been able to make an informed cholce of whose side of the issue of sovereignty they want to be on?

I can&#39;t help thinking that many, even in our regular worked territories still do not really know the import and essence of the issue the Bible presents.

How do they view JW&#39;s in general? Just another crackpot religion, out to get converts, and a strange sect with odd views and a tendency to split up families.

When you consider the amount of negative publicity JW&#39;s have generated in recent years, how can we expect the majority of people to make an informed choice and look favourably upon our religion as something different and worth investigating?

How are people to get to know Jehovah as a &#39;happy God&#39; when they see his people psychologically manipulated, mind controlled, often depressed, lonely and even unloved and neglected by fellow worshippers?

Even some of us here feel the same, but it is our love for God and the knowledge of a future judgment that keeps us spiritually sane and motivated.

I can only agree that the present &#39;preaching&#39; work, if we can call it that, is just a type of preparation for the real thing. But the real preaching and teaching work will surpass anything we have experienced up till then, for Jehovah will truly pour out his spirit in abundance, and then all mankind will have the opportunity to make a truly informed choice without the Watchtower movement putting stumbling blocks in the way prior to Armageddon.

We may be even surprised just how great the crowd will be surviving the tribulation!

Brotherly affection to all, Alex.

[DoubtingThomas]

That is absolutely one of the finest post I have ever seen that was written by anyone on this board Alex! Thank you for your heart felt sentiments. And I concur!

[Nash]

Well said Alex.

Your post reminded me of one of Watchman&#39;s podcasts. I never quite looked at the &#39;publicity&#39; angle in that way. There was once a time when Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses were in the news for generally positive things, but the publicity is quite bad now, especially with the child molestation issues and the NGO stuff.

Of course, that doesn&#39;t really reflect on the average Witness, but the leaders of the organization.

Well, it&#39;s nice to know that there are still JWs who are still using their thinking abilities! I guess we know who they are. :185:

Nash

[kasee47]

Well said Alex.

Your post reminded me of one of Watchman&#39;s podcasts. I never quite looked at the &#39;publicity&#39; angle in that way. There was once a time when Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses were in the news for generally positive things, but the publicity is quite bad now, especially with the child molestation issues and the NGO stuff.

Of course, that doesn&#39;t really reflect on the average Witness, but the leaders of the organization.

Well, it&#39;s nice to know that there are still JWs who are still using their thinking abilities! I guess we know who they are. :185:

Nash[/b]


Good morning--I am the "newbie," so please please please forgive me for any gaffes in where I post or mistakes I might make; they are unintentional, I assure you.

I have been in the truth longer than most; my father was baptized in 1940 and, along with his fleshly brother and countless friends, spent time in prison during WWII; his father had the Studies in the Scriptures books, and his father&#39;s sister was evidently one of the early Bible Students. My mother&#39;s mother was baptized in the 1930&#39;s, and I recently found out that my mother&#39;s grandfather was also of the anointed. I was baptized at a very young age, of my own volition; I&#39;ve been around the block a few times, and because of frequent moves have literally been part of a circuit full of congregations. I&#39;ve always said that my biggest tests have come from inside the congregation, never the opposition or difficulties that are inherent in being called one of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. And I truly have had my heart broken by individual elders and have been uspeakably angry at the injustice we all see from time to time.

I have always been so obedient to, not just the Bible, but to the Watchtower, in life-altering ways. However, although my faith in Jehovah is strong, my trust and faith in men has been broken; and I&#39;m not quite sure what to do with what I know. Thus I somehow came to this site.

Most of my children have now left the truth, and vow never to return. This past year I have become physically ill over this, and wondered how in the world I had failed them so miserably. Recently my daughter decided to explain to me why she made her decision, and when I investigated more deeply, I found she was correct in her facts. I found out the Society has lied to me and covered up their errors. I truly didn&#39;t care that Jerusalem, according to archeology and history, was destroyed in 588, not 607; although 1914, 1918, etc., may be of supreme importance to some, dates have never meant much to me except as a point of reference. When Armageddon did not come before I was 30, I sort of stopped counting time that way. But I do care that the Watchtower still clings to that date despite the data. I didn&#39;t care so much about the NGO discovery--but I was appalled at the excuses and the cover up. When I found out, accidentally, about the Rand-Cam engine being actually owned (49% of the shares is no small amount) by the Society and sold to the Defense Dept, I about came undone. What really hurt me, as a mom, was realizing the child molestation issue is not a random, local one; it is international, and it is never spoken of. To see parents and their children punished by reproof and df&#39;ing is unconscienable, and here it becomes personal.

However, when I thought about the big picture, should I stay or should I go, I had to remember what I know and where I learned it. Do I know about Jehovah and Jesus? Yes. Do I know about the condition of the dead and the resurrection? Yes. And I would never have learned these things in Christendom, although that&#39;s where some have returned to, to other organizations which are just as "imperfect," if that is the correct word. So I can&#39;t leave. I am angry and hurt, and I have nowhere to put these feelings, no one to talk to, as I don&#39;t know who to trust now. I&#39;ve missed many meetings recently, due to illness; but no one has called me. We talk so much about love, but individually I don&#39;t see it a lot.

As I said, I&#39;ve been around for a very long time, and I&#39;ve met many of the governing body. So it especially pains me to see the changes I&#39;ve noticed and that others don&#39;t seem to be aware of. Recently I commented in the book study about the new information regarding 1935 and that that was not the closing date for the gathering of the anointed. My book study conductor, a much older man, contradicted me; when I showed him the magazine, he still didn&#39;t believe me. My dad always told me there wasn&#39;t a clergy-laity distinction; but I see one now. He said there were no hard and fast rules--that&#39;s all we have now.

So it has been encouraging, actually, to read through some of the posts and find I am not alone, and I am not imagining things, and that although many are upset, they are still faithful to Jehovah God and trying to see how He will work things out. I do hope that you do remember me in your prayers. Thanks so much for allowing me to vent a little; and I hope I haven&#39;t said too much.

[kasee47]

Well said Alex.

Your post reminded me of one of Watchman&#39;s podcasts. I never quite looked at the &#39;publicity&#39; angle in that way. There was once a time when Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses were in the news for generally positive things, but the publicity is quite bad now, especially with the child molestation issues and the NGO stuff.

Of course, that doesn&#39;t really reflect on the average Witness, but the leaders of the organization.

Well, it&#39;s nice to know that there are still JWs who are still using their thinking abilities! I guess we know who they are. :185:

Nash[/b]


Good morning--I am the "newbie," so please please please forgive me for any gaffes in where I post or mistakes I might make; they are unintentional, I assure you.

I have been in the truth longer than most; my father was baptized in 1940 and, along with his fleshly brother and countless friends, spent time in prison during WWII; his father had the Studies in the Scriptures books, and his father&#39;s sister was evidently one of the early Bible Students. My mother&#39;s mother was baptized in the 1930&#39;s, and I recently found out that my mother&#39;s grandfather was also of the anointed. I was baptized at a very young age, of my own volition; I&#39;ve been around the block a few times, and because of frequent moves have literally been part of a circuit full of congregations. I&#39;ve always said that my biggest tests have come from inside the congregation, never the opposition or difficulties that are inherent in being called one of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. And I truly have had my heart broken by individual elders and have been uspeakably angry at the injustice we all see from time to time.

I have always been so obedient to, not just the Bible, but to the Watchtower, in life-altering ways. However, although my faith in Jehovah is strong, my trust and faith in men has been broken; and I&#39;m not quite sure what to do with what I know. Thus I somehow came to this site.

Most of my children have now left the truth, and vow never to return. This past year I have become physically ill over this, and wondered how in the world I had failed them so miserably. Recently my daughter decided to explain to me why she made her decision, and when I investigated more deeply, I found she was correct in her facts. I found out the Society has lied to me and covered up their errors. I truly didn&#39;t care that Jerusalem, according to archeology and history, was destroyed in 588, not 607; although 1914, 1918, etc., may be of supreme importance to some, dates have never meant much to me except as a point of reference. When Armageddon did not come before I was 30, I sort of stopped counting time that way. But I do care that the Watchtower still clings to that date despite the data. I didn&#39;t care so much about the NGO discovery--but I was appalled at the excuses and the cover up. When I found out, accidentally, about the Rand-Cam engine being actually owned (49% of the shares is no small amount) by the Society and sold to the Defense Dept, I about came undone. What really hurt me, as a mom, was realizing the child molestation issue is not a random, local one; it is international, and it is never spoken of. To see parents and their children punished by reproof and df&#39;ing is unconscienable, and here it becomes personal.

However, when I thought about the big picture, should I stay or should I go, I had to remember what I know and where I learned it. Do I know about Jehovah and Jesus? Yes. Do I know about the condition of the dead and the resurrection? Yes. And I would never have learned these things in Christendom, although that&#39;s where some have returned to, to other organizations which are just as "imperfect," if that is the correct word. So I can&#39;t leave. I am angry and hurt, and I have nowhere to put these feelings, no one to talk to, as I don&#39;t know who to trust now. I&#39;ve missed many meetings recently, due to illness; but no one has called me. We talk so much about love, but individually I don&#39;t see it a lot.

As I said, I&#39;ve been around for a very long time, and I&#39;ve met many of the governing body. So it especially pains me to see the changes I&#39;ve noticed and that others don&#39;t seem to be aware of. Recently I commented in the book study about the new information regarding 1935 and that that was not the closing date for the gathering of the anointed. My book study conductor, a much older man, contradicted me; when I showed him the magazine, he still didn&#39;t believe me. My dad always told me there wasn&#39;t a clergy-laity distinction; but I see one now. He said there were no hard and fast rules--that&#39;s all we have now.

So it has been encouraging, actually, to read through some of the posts and find I am not alone, and I am not imagining things, and that although many are upset, they are still faithful to Jehovah God and trying to see how He will work things out. I do hope that you do remember me in your prayers. Thanks so much for allowing me to vent a little; and I hope I haven&#39;t said too much.

[watchman]

Wow, that was quite an introductory post Kasee. Let me be the first to welcome you to the discussion board. It&#39;s a privilege to have long-time Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses on the forum. I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Watchman

[Candace]

Welcome dear sister! You are in a place where you can vent and heal and reclaim some of your sanity. You are among people who have shared similar experiences, so we can understand how you feel.

You will definitely be kept in my prayers. I hope you enjoy your stay here and I look forward to hearing from you again.

Take care,
Candace

[Peter]

Great to have you here. </span>

[size="3"]

Peter

[Berean]

Welcome to the forums, sister. I am rather young myself, having only been on this planet for a quarter of a century, so I hope to learn from someone like you as I have learnt a lot from all the brothers and sisters here already. I too, see a decrease in the amount of love for the ones that have fallen ill. My own mother isn&#39;t able to attend meetings any more, and hardly anyone seems to care. However, I try not to let myself get discouraged, but rather let all this encourage me, for Jesus said to his disciples that they would even throw them out of the synagogue. I try to consider it all joy, as James wrote in the opening of his letter to us all. I hope that being here will help you endure all the problems that you have, knowing that they will be temporary. Meanwhile, I will keep you in my prayers, that God may give you the strength to get through all your hardships.

[Nash]

Welcome to the Forum Kasee47!

:ban_dance01: :ban_dance02: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance02: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance02:

Don&#39;t worry - you&#39;re not going crazy; you&#39;re also among friends here.

Nash B)

[dgibson]

Welcome Kasee47

Is 47 the year you were baptised? Just being a bit nosey. Certainly it can&#39;t be your year of birth, because many of that generation have a vile hatred towards computers, or so it seems, right watchman? lol

Love
David

[Jeshurun]

It truly is a great privilege to have you here with us Kasee. I&#39;m looking forward to your posts.

Agape

Lou

[James]

A warm :hot: (oops, thats a little too warm, sorry!) WELCOME!

What a bitter-sweet story. All those wonderful years learning the glory of our creator, Jehovah, then seeing how that &#39;spiritual paradise&#39; is full of weeds from Satan!!

At least here you can &#39;vent&#39; without a Judicial Committee...

May Jehovah stay close to you in your trials and my prayers are with you.

agape,
James

[Sketch]

sooo... what you&#39;re saying is that you&#39;re having a problem separating the message from the messenger? welcome to the club... :)

[Orchid]

Welcome, your post touched my heart. Truly there are those sighing and groaning. May you find warm company and encouraging discussions here. :) I know I have.

Orchid :40:

[Viking]

my heartly welcome Kasee.
Your introduction to the forum sounds familiar with many experiences of others who read and post here.

We are all united in strengthening our Faith in Jah and Christ while we recognize that the self annointed slave in Brooklyn more an more looses his recognition of his responsibility.

For file and ranks they demand confession and repentence even in smallest thing. For themselve there are valid other laws. So it seems and that makes one frustrated.

We had just a service week together with 2 travelling brothers and one of them told that one of the GB members had something like a vision that Armageddon does come when all members of the GB have died.

But there are a handfull of young GB members, in the age of 50ies. Soe it seems they predict Armageddon in about 30 years.
We can hear them snoaring. sonn christ will be at the door and all the virgins are sleeping.
so we only can hope that we belong to that class that has enough oil in the lamp.

The last essay - After the Watchtower - is encouraging to keep the mind open and to wait for the things coming. It seems that we live of the edge of the change of the time.

My family is also long connected to the Watchtower. My grandma in 1920 was already enjoying the meetings with the biblestudents. So meanwhile we are in the 4th generation worshipping our God.

[Molly]

Please let me add my welcome to Kasee47.

Your introductory explanation of how you came to be a member of this forum has hit similar chord with many of us. When we found out about the WTS&#39;s cover-ups, the deceptions to the congregations, followed by the abuse of disfellowshipping for mentioning the problem, we had the same heartsick response that you did. The only way I can explain it is that of grief and mourning. It was a betrayal. If there had been a reasonable explanation, followed by an apology, then there could be some healing, but there is nothing of the sort forthcoming, just more cover-up by silencing those who are aware of the problem.

Thankfully, Watchman has helped us by providing us with the scriptural understanding that the WTS&#39;s spiritual adultery is fulfillment of scriptures, that this fulfillment should give us heart that we are fast approaching Jesus&#39; arrival. Regardless of how sad it has made us to learn of the Society&#39;s misdeeds, we should be encouraged that it had to happen. Since it did happen, we therefore know that we are in the right place (amongst Jehovah&#39;s people) and we simply need to endure. Also keep in mind that when you heard of the WTS&#39;s problems that Jehovah did not leave you hanging, but because of your love for Him, he provided you with answers and an outlet here on this forum where you can voice your concerns. We are happy to have you with us. Your long experience in the organization will no doubt offer us considerable insight.

We look forward to your input in the days to come.

Molly

[Peter]

Hi Kasee47.
I didn&#39;t have much time to post yesterday.

I was encouraged by your post; it struck a cord with me. It appears that the society care little for those who are sighing and groaning over the condition in the &#39;House of God&#39;. The NGO affair is of no importance, the child abuse policies are just fine, and as for the prophetic word goes they&#39;re in spiritual paradise. For those of us who know different it becomes frustrating. Don&#39;t be to down on yourself though, you&#39;re not alone.

I found your post encouraging not necessary because of its contents (even though it was good) but because it comes from one who has given their life to Jehovah and the organization, only to find out that its leader aren&#39;t doing what they should be doing. How many find themselves are in similar circumstances? Having been in the truth all their lives then discover the Watchtower&#39;s flagship prophecy (1914) was a lie.


Realizing the truth about the truth is a complicated business. Attending meetings, going out in the ministry, knowing that if you say anything out-of-turn the thought police will be around to pay you a visit, readjustment is what they call it, it&#39;s not an easy undertaking. It&#39;s like being gagged, tied up and never knowing when your realise will be, tomorrow, next week, next year or in ten years. Keep you&#39;re thinking to yourself they say, in fact even thinking about it or entertaining thought could land you in room 101, is that what Isaiah and Jeremiah and many other did, I don&#39;t think so!


Recently I had a subtle conversation with a brother about the prophetic word; I thought I would test the waters with him so to speak. He&#39;s not one that&#39;s thrown his whole being into the Watchtower, yet he used the words &#39;dangerous talk&#39;. There&#39;s very little in the way of the Borean among Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses as &#39;Mother knows best&#39;. They&#39;re treated as small children and scolded when they misbehave.

Don&#39;t get me wrong I appreciate the hard work, dedication and zeal the brothers have, however say the wrong thing to your Mother, Father, wife, brother, sister (spiritual or otherwise), aunties, uncles, nieces, nephews or whoever is in ear shot and they will have no worries in dobbin you into the elders. The elders in turn will no doubt be those you have severed Jehovah shoulder to shoulder with, taken meals with, been on vacation with, picked them up when they were down, you may have even helped them to become one of Jehovah&#39;s witnesses. But assured as the pope is a catholic, they would be more that prepared to put your neck in the hangman loose, pull the leaver and watch you swing spiritually regardless of the love that you had for them. Of courses this isn&#39;t their fault it&#39;s the way that they have been indoctrinated. If one is disfellowshipped for good reason then so be it. However, disfellowshipping someone for speaking the truth and calling a spade a spade is wholly unacceptable. How long the society think they can get away with it I don&#39;t know.

This is what it has become for the most part, a golden calf. Like Saul they think they render God a service but having you lovingly thrown out of the synagogue. That though will happen to those who don&#39;t obey the good news, thrown out where the weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. In other words the tables are about to turn.

So my sister says strong, be an encouragement to the brothers now. They have no understanding of the dangers that lay ahead. All that Jehovah expects of us is to have love for the brotherhood, so be there for them in the time of the end when Jehovah’ judges is earthly household.