Captives Of A Concept: A Book Review

[Administration]

A new commentary has been published which reviews a book by an ex-Jehovah's Witness titled "Captives of a Concept." This book has been given much attention recently by the anti-JW community, and in this new Commentary, Robert King scripturally explains why the author has misrepresented and misunderstood the real issue that faces Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society today when it comes to the "faithful and discreet slave" and how and why they are appointed by Christ.

Captives of a Concept: A Book Review (http://e-watchman.com/watchman-commentaries-collection.html)

[barry]

Hi Watchman,

Thanks for this comment. Several times I was asked about the same question about the appointment of the slaves. It was a bit difficult to explain, but with your comment, it makes a lot of sense, that the slaves are first appointed to provide food and only afterwards are appointed over all things.

thanks,
Barry

[eyes&ears]

Thank you Watchman. I have read the review and also printed it for reference later.

Thank you also for info regarding the slave, it was very clear and now I undestand it

much better. I really needed that clarification.

E & E

[watchman]

for your information, I made a goof in the commentary when I referred to the rumor about Christ's return during John's lifetime being in the last chapter of Acts. It's not. I should have said the last chapter of John. I'll have Timothy fix that but I thought I had better mention that since e&e already printed it out. :spamafote:

[eyes&ears]

OKEY DOKEY WATCHMAN.

E & E

[Cephalon]

Beautifully done Watchman.

[billy]

thank you Watchman

that is such a logical explanation fo the faithful slave - i found it very upbuilding and encouraging - looking forward to the prohpecies fulfillment of the adjustments to the slaves - when love conquers superficial lip service

you have also helped me to see why there are so many stumbling blocks within the org-and a good point - to not let the stumbling blocks make us loose faith in Jehovah and his people - i will hang on to the concept that Jehovah's Witnesses are still God's people

i think personally my main reasons why i do hang on to this concept is that the wt doesnt go to war - thats my main number one criteria - also they dont get involved in politics - they use Jehovah's name

so thank you again watchman for your time, effort and discernment

much agape to you

[Kenneth]

Jesus did not appoint a faithful and discreet slave over all of his belongings in 1919, as the Watchtower teaches and as Jehovah's Witnesses commonly believe.[/b]
Once this idea of 1914 is demolished and has been bulldozed the JW loses faith fast. This of course is a clear demonstration of the basis for faith that a JW has namely that it's built around the organization and what it teaches, that is why so many will become stumbled on the masters arrival. Even though if a JW were asked what the basis for faith is, they'd tell you Jesus Christ. If that is the case though why are so many stumbled and lose faith when they discover that 1914-1919 is wrong. The simple answer is that they have been captive to a false concept, and have failed to understand the wider picture. There are many like Cameron who recognize this fact and thus capitalize on it maintaining that the Watchtower Society is not Jehovah's organization. Yet JW have enjoyed more spiritual freedom than most in that they and they alone have come to understand the universal issues of God's sovereignty.

Sadly numerous have never come to recognise that JW's makeup the 'House of God' and as for those who are part of it they fail to discern the operation of error that exists within. Nevertheless the point of who constituted the 'House of God' was thrashed out sometime ago before many who previously were here left. A number of them arrived at the conclusion that the Watchtower wasn't God's organization because of the many issues facing the Watchtower. I'm not sure though what they expected in the light of scripture as both the faithful and the evil slave would co-exist simultaneously.


"Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes"[/b]

I've never real broken this down enough. It appears that there are those who know the will of the master (the truth) yet are failing to acknowledge it; this is the man of lawlessness.


'Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' 26 In reply his master said to him, 'Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you ought to have deposited my silver monies with the bankers, and on my arrival I would be receiving what is mine with interest.[/b]

"But the lawless one's presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness"[/b]
Any who protest are beaten and driven out of the congregation.

"But if ever that slave should say in his heart, 'My master delays coming,' and should start to beat the menservants and the maidservants"[/b]

The picture fits perfectly into the Watchtower. It's amazing why other's can't see who who makeup the 'House of God' in relation to scripture. After all someone has too. If all we needed was to believe in the Lord and the 'come-to-Jesus' approach to spirituality' then what's the point of the scriptures.

This text of the faithful slave also demonstrates that some kind of works are vital on our behalf that act as a demonstration of our faith. Those who leave the organization only to drift into another religious order maintain that works aren't necessary, yet James made the point clear, they were. If works were not part of faith then why mention it.

All apostates desire is to rip apart the faith of others, they give no consideration to the damage that they are doing and for that matter don't care. Franz, Cameron, and Rick Fearon's website all three are x-JWs are embittered and think they are doing God a favour. As was mentioned in the review "These are the ones that make separations, animalistic men, not having spirituality."

Well done Robert a thought provoking and timely piece of writing.

[Jinnvisible]

</span>Whilst God&#39;s purposes may have utilized modern technology they quite obviously do not depend upon it. Not having the ability to discern these things may explain by way of emphasis also why an e-watchman might be conveniently dismissed as an opposer in the mold of a D.Cameron or D. Burnley. Under the current situation most of Jehovah&#39;s Christian witnesses do not see the need to make these finer distinctions. </span>

[billy]

it&#39;s interesting right after Jesus talks about the the two slave classes he goes on to say there will be divisions within God&#39;s people -
luke 12

49 "I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law

then Jesus goes on to speak more about the time of his second coming

54 Then he went on to say also to the crowds: "When YOU see a cloud rising in western parts, at once YOU say, &#39;A storm is coming,&#39; and it turns out so. 55 And when YOU see that a south wind is blowing, YOU say, &#39;There will be a heat wave,&#39; and it occurs.....

so my brain says the "divisions" would be in the time of the end - i used to think this applied to the time when Jesus was on earth and the divisions were those between jews who accepted or didnt accept Jesus as the Messiah - and if the scripture was taken out of context then it would appear to be so - but now i see it differntly looking at the context of the 2 slave classes and the division being set in the time of the end

then again it could apply to both times Jesus came to the earth - the first time there was division amongst the jews and now amongst the christians - also the pattern of hypocrisy and missing the point of the principles - making a big deal out of little things and big issues as not so important- seem to apply to the wt

[billy]

Hi Jinnvisible

i liked how you made the distinction between a legal corporation the wt and God&#39;s people - maybe thats why the wt is suing people for exposing the tuth about many things - it maybe trying to protect it&#39;s assets - it has stored up a large wealth - i ve read if the wt had to pay wages then their profits wouldnt have been so high - maybe it could just take non religous persons to get power in the whitehouse and abolish tax free concessions and require paid wages for religous orgs -

i find it interesting -with the technology we have today - why do we need all these facilites for printing and accomodation, farms etc when the info could be sent down line and each congo could print out the info cheaply and easily

then more time could be spent not only in the preaching work but helping the widows, orphens, and the downtrodden - as there does not seem to be much emphasise in these areas - too much paper work for the local elders to have much time to do this


I just read a wt article:

The Traitorous “Evil Slave” and His Prototypes wt &#39;61

to put the aritcle in a nutshell:

2 examples of worldly traitors and the definition of traitor
examples of Judas & AHITHOPHEL
with Judas there were involved pride, greed, malice, hypocrisy, scheming and willful sticking to a predetermined course
the evil slave is lacks honesty and love
(driven by) pride and greed

so according to the wt one would discern if these qualities were present in this qroup of people or individuals - which would identiy an evil slave - i have noticed the wt displaying some of these traits

[Jeshurun]

It&#39;s all well and good to be able to dismantle the WTBTS using their own literature, but if you&#39;re going to expose the Watchtower for what it is, without providing the rest of the story, I think you&#39;re playing with weapons-grade plutonium. To recommend "finding Jesus" is something I can hear from any televangelist, and then of course Jehovah disappears into the woodwork.

That&#39;s tantamount to Moses destroying the calf-idol, wiping out a few hundred Israelites, and then saying "good luck finding the Promised Land, I&#39;m goin&#39; back to Egypt, I had it good there once".

[Jeshurun]

The book review is getting "reviewed" at another DB we all know. Robert is getting pasted for saying that the Watchtower did indeed receive an assignment to dispense "food at the proper time", but now he is being accused of speaking with "forked tongue" because he has referred to the literature as "filthy vomit". But how do these people forget where they learned the truth in the first place? Does it have to be "all or nothing at all"? The filthy vomit comes from all the false interpretations and "faithful slave" stuff, not from the basic truths that the Watchtower has done so much to bring to the attention of the world.

And what&#39;s the difficulty in understanding the concept that the "faithful slave" jumped ahead of themselves to assume that they have already been "appointed over all the master&#39;s belongings"? Robert is right in pointing out that this is two different assignments. You can&#39;t pass a test until you are tested, You don&#39;t get a passing grade until Jesus returns. The operation of error is that they believe Christ returned in 1914.

Everyone knows all about all the prophecies that the Watchtower erroneously applies to Christendom. Now if Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses are not the "intimate group of my people", can someone who denies that they are please offer an explanation as to who is?

[watchman]

After Jesus expounded on his illustration of the wheat and the weeds and the good and bad fishes, he asked the disciples if they had gotten the sense of it. They said "yes." But if Jesus were to ask that question of the leadership of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses today the answer would have to be "no." However, it is gratifying to me that a handful of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses actually do get the sense of it.

[Kenneth]

<span style="font-family:Verdana">I real do wonder what it is that individuals comprehend when reading the bible. Who was Jesus referring to at Luke 12 as regards the good and evil slave, who does it fit. None that I know of except the Watchtower and JWs. Yes people there are bad things happening in the congregations otherwise why would Jesus refer to the wicked and good slave riding in tandem, and why the message to the seven congregations? And yes it truth that Roberts review has come in for criticism from other sites that appear somewhat bemused at the position that he&#39;s taking. So let&#39;s spell it out in plain English.

Both faithful and apostate Israel were part of the old covenant. Just because apostate Israel was doing badly in the eyes of Jehovah it didn&#39;t mean that they were no longer apart of that covenant, Jehovah was still their husbandly owner. Afterwards Jesus made a new covenant with his disciples for a kingdom, but those who were to be apart of it needed to prove their worth. Thus as was the case with apostate Israel (who were apart of that covenant) so it would be with spiritual Israel, some would prove unfaithful to the covenant and unworthy of being apart of that kingdom arrangement. So the two have to ride in tandem until the master comes and throws the evil salve out. However, by being a part of the Watchtower where we find spiritual Israel we are supporting Christ&#39;s brothers and being an encouragement to those who are weighed down in the congregation. Anyone can sit back on their computer and throw out a few words as part of a forum, its hardly what we call persecution and no big deal, but the real endurance is to be found at the grassroots level in the congregation where our brothers and sisters are running the race until that master arrives. And believe you me running it they are.

So if there is anyone out there on the net who can tell me what the &#39;House of God&#39; is and who are fulfilling the scriptures other than Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses then give my a shout as I would love to here from you. I&#39;ve asked these questions many times and have never received a proper answer. I know that many are reading this forum who post elsewhere, so let have it, start a threat and answer the question.


Who makeup the House of God and who were the ancient prophets referring too?

I&#39;ll give you a start, try explaining the book of Zachariah written in 518 BCE long after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, this book must have a modern-day fulfilment, so who is it?

Come-on people if it&#39;s not spiritual Israel then who, who fits the picture?



</span>

[watchman]

<span style="font-family:Verdana">
So if there is anyone out there on the net who can tell me what the &#39;House of God&#39; is and who are fulfilling the scriptures other than Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses then give my a shout as I would love to here from you. I&#39;ve asked these questions many times and have never received a proper answer. I know that many are reading this forum who post elsewhere, so let have it, start a threat and answer the question.


Who makeup the House of God and who were the ancient prophets referring too?

I&#39;ll give you a start, try explaining the book of Zachariah written in 518 BCE long after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, this book must have a modern-day fulfilment, so who is it?

Come-on people if it&#39;s not spiritual Israel then who, who fits the picture? </span>[/b]

I hope you are not holding your breath waiting for an answer. You might turn blue. :unsure:

Watchman

[Kenneth]

I hope you are not holding your breath waiting for an answer. You might turn blue. :unsure:

Watchman[/b]

Watchman I&#39;ve been waiting for months for someone to give the answer and they have failed miserably.

So people let&#39;s be having you, what&#39;s the answer to the above question? Don&#39;t make me hold my breath much longer, I&#39;ve been holding it for long enough and I&#39;m going to burst.

[DoubtingThomas]

Hey Jesh, Now they are not only attacking Watchman, but they have started a new thread titled "Jeshuran&Company" inviting you and Kenneth to come over and respond to them on their board. Their attacks on Kenneth are personal in nature about his turning blue holding his breathe for a response. Personally ... I wouldn&#39;t waste my time dealing with those apostates.

DT

[Kenneth]

Hey Jesh, Now they are not only attacking Watchman, but they have started a new thread titled "Jeshuran&Company" inviting you and Kenneth to come over and respond to them on their board. Their attacks on Kenneth are personal in nature about his turning blue holding his breathe for a response. Personally ... I wouldn&#39;t waste my time dealing with those apostates.

DT[/b]

Who’s sending out the invites? Sounds like a party&#39;s going down somewhere :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01:

Don Cameron seems to have joined in the party over on the other café.

[DoubtingThomas]

Yeah ... I read Don Cameron&#39;s response to brother King. While I don&#39;t agree with everything he wrote, I do appreciate that at least he made what appears to be a sincere effort to explain some of his beliefs a little further in response to Watchman. It seems to boil down to this ... he tries to use WT literature to "prove" they are not God&#39;s organization. Well WT literature is so convulted and twisted over the years that it really is possible to do this. But the facts of history speak differently. Jehovah has most certainly used the group of people known as Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses to advance His purpose. Like kenneth ask: Who else are His name people and spiritual Israel? I won&#39;t hold my breathe waiting for an answer.

DT

[watchman]

e-watchman has the unique distiction of being on the bad side of the Watchtower as well as XJW&#39;s. I got to be doing something right.

Watchman :ban_dance02:

[Kenneth]

Hey guys thanks for the invite but I won&#39;t be coming over, if however you could answer the question clearly I would appreciate it, especially the interpretation of Zechariah.</span> </span>

[billy]

Hi everyone

I come to the same conclusion - if the wt isnt the congregation for the prophecies to be fulfilled - then who is?

someone has to make up the structure of Paul&#39;s writings on how to organize congregations with certain ones taking the lead and caring for the sheep - there are too many scriptures on these subjects to dismiss them

ive come to the conclusion that i dont have a problem with the actual structure of the spiritual part of the org - congregations, elders, ministerial servents etc - that is from Jesus to the Apostle Paul

but what i have been struggling with is the

LACK OF:

LOVE - not only personally but the shocking situation with the child abuse victims
TRUTHFULLNESS - the society&#39;s reluctance to admit error and apologize to dishonestly hiding information
FREEDOM OF SPEECH - produces fake and artifical people - and distrust

im am sooo glad to see others have noticed and felt these same problems

on a similar note - Bruisedreed broughtout a very good scripture on another db - this scripture shows that freedom of speech is acceptable within the congregations

1 cor 11:18

the message bible
17-19Regarding this next item, I&#39;m not at all pleased. I am getting the picture that when you meet together it brings out your worst side instead of your best! First, I get this report on your divisiveness, competing with and criticizing each other. I&#39;m reluctant to believe it, but there it is. The best that can be said for it is that the testing process will bring truth into the open and confirm it.

the amplified bible
18For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it,
19For doubtless there have to be factions or parties among you in order that they who are genuine and of approved fitness may become evident and plainly recognized among you.

new living translation
17 But in the following instructions, I cannot praise you. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together. 18 First, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it. 19 But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God’s approval will be recognized!

contemperay english version
17Your worship services do you more harm than good. I am certainly not going to praise you for this. 18I am told that you can&#39;t get along with each other when you worship, and I am sure that some of what I have heard is true. 19You are bound to argue with each other, but it is easy to see which of you have God&#39;s approval.

[Jeshurun]

Hi Billy, thanks for those scriptures, and nice Koala Bear!

DT thanks for the heads up. There are all different types of folks over there with differing opinions, some of them are great, and others have mixed agendas. It&#39;s a different world from here and all I can say is that I thank Jehovah and Robert for providing this sanctuary of truth.

[Jinnvisible]

Wasn`t there an episode of the Twilight Zone.......... where some men who where opposed to the Watchtower society,,,,,,,,,,,, claimed that you must only accept the WTBTS`s self definition of what it is ?

i.e. This view also being the official line of the society ?

......Or was that the one where the guy who really liked books was the sole surviver of a nuclear holocaust yet trod on and crushed his own eye glasses in the library ?

...or was that a different one ?

[Nash]

e-watchman has the unique distiction of being on the bad side of the Watchtower as well as XJW&#39;s. I got to be doing something right.

Watchman :ban_dance02: [/b]

That&#39;s right.

Nash

[Kenneth]

Well the nearest I&#39;ve been given so far in explaining the &#39;House of God&#39; is found at Galatians 4:26" the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother", but that doesn&#39;t explain much. Peter made the point clear that the house of God is to be judged, place that in line with other scriptures and parables vineyard, virgins etc, and we see clearly that there must be a group here on earth that makeup this house and fit the parables Jesus gave. They can&#39;t fit Christendom as they were never invited into the vineyard, and it certainly can&#39;t fit any other sect or group that don&#39;t profess Christ.

Another question to ask ourselves, are we living in the last days of this old system? Think about it never has man had the ability to ruining the earth nor destroy humanity at the touch of a button.Also Paul&#39;s description in the book of Timothy fits today like a glove when he described what people&#39;s attitudes would be like during the time of the end. To suggest that we aren&#39;t living in the time of the end would be to ignore world events and scripture. Thus if this is the time of the end the &#39;House of God&#39; and the parables Jesus gave would be evident in some group here on earth, and its that group that would incur Jehovah wrath, its that group that would be throw out to weep and gnash their teeth, its that group that would be beaten with many or few strokes. It just amazes me why individuals can&#39;t see this.

There are some that just can&#39;t accept that the Watchtower as the instrument that Jehovah has been using to ingather his people in theses last days because of the way that they have been treated. But lets remember that Jesus stated that there would be those who would beat their follow slaves, well isn&#39;t that in line with the parables that Jesus gave. It seems to me that those who have faced the wrath of the Watchtower for one reason or another (and yes I do empathies with you) may either have become disillusioned over their treatment or have for some other reason left because of the publicity as respects child abuse and other issues.

I too have become very disturbed by what&#39;s been going on in the Watchtower society and the way brothers are being treated, and yes it is shameful. I also suffered a spiritual beating that the hands of the elders sometime ago and came a hairs breath from being disfellowshipped. I was accused of one of the most heinous crimes that a JW could commit, apostasy, something that I did not nor would have anything to do with. Yet I am now branded an apostate and carry the label. I have suffered from depression and haven&#39;t been the same psychologically since, and who&#39;s fault is that, the Watchtower for basing there teaching on an operation of error and refusing to do anything about it. I still though attend the KH and why, because I see that only JWs fit the picture, they and they alone. So those of us who are still in the fold so to speak we will be persecuted by our very own brothers for speaking truth, this is something we must expect. However, just because we have faced their wrath does make it any less not the &#39;House of God&#39;. As I and others have stated none appear to give a clear explanation of what it constitutes therefore I can only conclude that Spiritual Israel will only be found among JWs and they alone and no other.

As for Robert King being attract from all angles, it should only strengthen his and our faith that Jehovah has raised a Watchman. Lets be honest Jehovah always warns his people, and e-watchman has certainly sounded the warning of Jehovah&#39;s judgment on his household as respects the leadership. So for all my friends out there in cyberspace take a good hard realistic look at the Watchtower, bible prophecy and the parables and ask yourself truthfully, who fit the picture?

[watchman]

Here is Don Cameron&#39;s rebuttal to my "book review." He posted this as a comment on the e-watchman blog, which I deleted because it was off-topic. But in the interest of fairness I am posting his response here.

Watchman
__________________________________________________ ____

Here are my comments (Don Cameron) about e-Watchman&#39;s review of my "Captives of a Concept"

e-Watchman: "The basic premise of the book is that the Watchtower Society cannot be Jehovah&#39;s organization for the simple reason that, according to the Society, it can be reasoned out that Jesus did not appoint a faithful and discreet slave over all of his belongings in 1919, as the Watchtower teaches and as Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses commonly believe."

Don: That sounds about right. I notice that Robert agrees that this is what the Watchtower teaches. In other words, according to the Society, the only way it can be Jehovah&#39;s "faithful and discreet" slave organization today is if they had received the appointment mentioned in Matthew 24:47 in 1919.

e-Watchman: "(Cameron) is captive to the concept that the Watchtower Society&#39;s authority depends upon its having been approved and appointed by Christ in 1919…"

Don: Again, it is not according to me that "the Watchtower Society&#39;s&#39; authority depends upon is having been approved and appointed by Christ in 1919." It is according to the Society. That&#39;s what they teach. It is their interpretation Matthew 24:45-47 that I deal with throughout the book, not mine or anyone else&#39;s. I just try to hold them to their interpretation.

And as I explain in the book it is not necessary to disagree with their interpretation but only to understand it and then hold them to it while examining their history to see if they agree with each other. According to the Society (not me) they have to agree in order for the Society to even have a chance of ever having been Jehovah&#39;s organization.

It is exactly as e-Watchman acknowledges when he said, "That is what the Watchtower Society officially teaches."

But he then goes on to explain that he doesn&#39;t agree with the Society&#39;s interpretation of the identity of "the faithful and discreet slave." He said that Society&#39;s way of identifying Jesus&#39; slave "is not the scriptural criteria for establishing the identity of Jesus&#39; "slave."

But again, for the purpose of my book, it doesn&#39;t matter what the Scriptural criteria is. It is only necessary to understand the Society&#39;s criteria – and then hold them to it.

e-Watchman: "What is most telling about Captives of a Concept, and hence its author, is its noticeable lack of spiritual depth.

Don: I don&#39;t know what he means. It is true that I don&#39;t get preachy or emotional. Perhaps I tend to get a bit too technical? He would need to explain that one.

e-Watchman: "Cameron has no detectable faith –although in conclusion he fecklessly recommends a &#39;come-to-Jesus&#39; approach to spirituality."

Don: What&#39;s so wrong with doing what Peter did? – John 6:68

e-Watchman: He conspicuously avoids using the name "Jehovah" except in quotation, which is also quite telling.

Don: I hadn&#39;t noticed that. I wonder what that tells?

e-Watchman: "He is blatant in stating that the purpose and intent of his book is to persuade Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses that the Watchtower Society is not Jehovah&#39;s organization.

Don: I don&#39;t recall being blatant. But it is true that I would like to help Witnesses discover that the Society has never been Jehovah&#39;s organization. From my experience, Witnesses who do discover this are grateful for whatever help they received to help them discover it. So far I haven&#39;t heard an Ex Witness say that they were sorry they found out that the Society isn&#39;t Jehovah&#39;s organization.

e-Watchman: "He even bemoans the fact that the vast majority of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses will never read his book because of their heeding the Watchtower&#39;s admonition to avoid exposure to apostate literature."

Don: I don&#39;t recall where I &#39;bemoaned.&#39; But it does seem likely that Robert is correct. The majority of Witnesses will never read my book because of heeding the Governing Body&#39;s admonition to avoid exposure to (so-called) apostate literature.

e-Watchman: "In that respect Cameron is like his mentor, Ray Franz; who fits the profile outlined in the Scriptures, where it says in Jude: &#39;These are the ones that make separations, animalistic men, not having spirituality.&#39;"

Don: Wow! I don&#39;t see how can anyone read Raymond Franz&#39;s books and see him making separations, or that he is an animalistic man, or that he does not have spirituality? - Again, Wow! I sure don&#39;t mind being named in the same sentence with Ray.

e-Watchman: Although there is no question the Watchtower Society has placed numerous stumbling blocks on the path, a person "not having spirituality" has no capacity or desire to surmount the stumbling blocks with which they are confronted. Instead, the animalistic person seeks to exploit the stumbling blocks to cause as many others as possible to stumble from the path."

Don: If that means that I&#39;m trying to help Witnesses come to realize what has happened to them, then I&#39;m guilty.

e-Watchman: It is also noteworthy that the very expression "captives of a concept" suggests that Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses are in need of being set free from captivity."

Don: That&#39;s the way it feels in my case. And I have received letters from others who feel the same way. i.e. that we have escaped from the illusionary concept that had held us captive by controlling our decision-making process without us realizing it.

e-Watchman: Like Franz, with his tempting offer of "Christian freedom," Cameron apparently fancies himself as a liberator of poor misguided Watchtower slaves too.

Don: I don&#39;t think of myself as a liberator but only as someone who has some information that I think may be helpful to some Witnesses who are struggling with what they see going on and are trying to find answers that will help them see what it all means.

e-Watchman: "He claims to have a grasp of reality while Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses are in the grip of an illusion."

Don: True. I now think that all those years I believed that the Society was God&#39;s organization I was "in the grip of an illusion." I now feel that the Watchtower&#39;s "spirit-directed faithful and discreet slave class organization" is just an illusion that exists only in the minds of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses.

Note: From here on e-Watchman goes on to a lengthy explanation of his personal interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 and the identify of Jesus&#39; "faithful and discreet slave." I have no comments about his understanding in this matter.

It is interesting to me to notice so many of the negative things that Robert has to say about the Society and yet he still believes it is the organization that Jehovah is using anyway.

Obviously he has a completely different way of looking at things then I do.

[Jinnvisible]

D.Cameron:

`It is interesting to me to notice so many of the negative things that Robert has to say about the Society and yet he still believes it is the organization that Jehovah is using anyway.

Obviously he has a completely different way of looking at things then I do.`[/b]

I agree with Don Cameron. It is interesting that some people have negative things to say about the society yet believe that it is intrumental in God`s purpose.

What I find odd about Mr. Cameron`s perspective is not that he isolates the society`s logic to disprove the society, - that is perfectly reasonable to me. Rather that he apparently states his position as being that ~ the society could possibly be instrumental in god`s purpose under some other criteria than what the society is offering ~. Yet he is not seemingly interested in that.

So when he keeps taking the position that he is not interested in what the bible states but only what the society states he is actually thinking in exactly the same terms as a - society idolating pharasaic elder - because that is exactly thier position also. In that sense he is still a `captive of a concept` himself.

I would not personaly refuse to read Mr. Cameron`s book on the grounds that it is apostate literature. I don`t think it is possible for Mr. Cameron to stumble more people than the society has. However with no comentary on God`s prophets it would be difficult for any writting to qualify for merit in God`s purpose in the way that the society`s can or an individual such as Gregg Stafford`s might.

[dgibson]

Do you want to know what I think? I thought so....Well I can&#39;t keep quiet, because I&#39;m again frustrated like when on the old board, Ray Franz was the subject matter that many posted about. It even got to the point that EW was ready to shut the board down, instead of letting it take over the the discussion board.

Here&#39;s my simple thoughts, about the matter. It seems to me, that us little folk ( thats inclusive of myself) that struggle putting the contents of the bible together as a whole picture in sharp focus, are always finding ourselves being led by the ones who seemingly have a firm grasp on the details there within.

I know it must be a wonderful feeling, when you are set free from false religious teachings, and fears learned from all these false religions in the world, but then to find out that the one that set us free, in our own last two centuries, that claims to be Jehovahs corporation of delivered written goods, has taken advantage of us, with many tricks, like silence, double speak, gas-lighting, etc, to cover their past mistakes or to appear in the know, when clearly they are not, well the average person of lower educations, like myself does appreciate fine individuals like EW who makes clear sense of whats real, and whats not, FOR FREE to anyone, and helps those in need of understanding to sort out "Whats Important", and Whats Not".

If you are one of the invited potential 144,000 future heavenly judges, you have to know exactly how to behave within satans system of things. If your going to be one of the great crowds of witnesses, you need to help support these with the heavenly hope, but you have much more freedom of choices than the WTBTS wants you to believe you have, and this is what I believe is the purpose of many of these books, like Don Cameron&#39;s and Ray Franz. I think they are trying to free some of these ones, that are hard core line over line, followers from giving their all, later to find, wow I could have just lived my life, like all the other good neighbors in my community, and still shared in a wonderful gift that Jehovah has planned for everyone willing to have faith in him, and not hold hinm accountable for mankinds problems at present. If, and when these ones get into the new system that overworked themselves sacraficing family realtionships, etc. they may hard time adjusting to the new system, being as part of everyone who never worked nearly as hard to understand, and follow the scriptures, and the WTBTS rules, and Reg&#39;s to the letter.

Its late and I&#39;m probably not making much sense, but I will post anyway, and let EW zero it out if he chooses too.

[Juan]

Here is Don Cameron&#39;s rebuttal to my "book review." He posted this as a comment on the e-watchman blog, which I deleted because it was off-topic. But in the interest of fairness I am posting his response here.

Watchman

Don: ...

But again, for the purpose of my book, it doesn&#39;t matter what the Scriptural criteria is. It is only necessary to understand the Society&#39;s criteria – and then hold them to it.

...[/b]

At the risk of being redundant, the important thing IS the scriptural criteria! If what they say doesn&#39;t agree with scriptures, it doesn&#39;t matter what the society say or what Robert King say or what Don Cameron say. What matters is what Jehovah caused to be written in his inspired word - the bible.

[watchman]

Don: ...

But again, for the purpose of my book, it doesn&#39;t matter what the Scriptural criteria is. It is only necessary to understand the Society&#39;s criteria – and then hold them to it.

At the risk of being redundant, the important thing IS the scriptural criteria! If what they say doesn&#39;t agree with scriptures, it doesn&#39;t matter what the society say or what Robert King say or what Don Cameron say. What matters is what Jehovah caused to be written in his inspired word - the bible.[/b]

Thanks for pointing that out. I thought Cameron&#39;s comment, which you highlighted, serves as the best repudiation of his book. The lunacy of Cameron&#39;s thinking is that he apparently imagines that Jehovah is bound by the criteria he imposes. That is truely laughable.

Watchman

[dgibson]

Just how much is written about the "great crowd" in the scriptures? besides having palm branches in their hands?