War In Heaven

[Olm]

How do we know if the war in Heaven has happen or has not happen yet? It seems most religons say that the war in Heaven has already happen and satan with his demons has been thrown down to earth. Even JWs teach that satan has been thrown down in 1914.
So my question is has the war in Heaven happen yet? How do we know if it has or has not?

[Jeshurun]

Hi Olm

Evidently Satan attacks Jehovah's people as a first order of business, and it is an unmistakable time of persecution, especially on the anointed remnant. Here's a couple of scriptures that might help:

Isaiah 28:16 "Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone....no one exercising faith will get panicky."

Revelation 12:¹³ Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. ¹⁴ But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

So the 42 months of the tribulation commences with that event of Satan being thrown down. Then Jesus' first order of business after the kingdom is set up is the inspection of the temple. He overthrows the money changers again, so the Watchtower's fall is probably the first sign of his being thrown down.

Hope this helps, there's probably more somewhere.

Lou

[Olm]

So you are saying that no, the war in heaven has not happen yet. That is what I am getting for what you wrote down. Why is it that so many religons say that the war in heaven has happen already? And yes that does help Jeshurun.

[fruitage]

HI Olm...how are you

in the time I've been away from the KH....a little over two yrs.....I have come to the conclusion...that Christ has been with mankind scince pentecost....as the scripture indicates , as well as other scriptures....that says where two or more are gathered in my name , there I am in the midst....

Also the scripture which says....I am with you until the conclusion

But Christ has not returned as of yet....that is to judge and resurrect and start his rule...for this we are praying and hoping for....I believe that Precense or parousia is the same meaning as coming or returning....as we are told to look for composite signs that he is coming or returning so as to be prepared...

I believe we can do without dates in our worship of Jehovah...and according to the current teaching of 1914 as being the date Jesus cleaned out the heavans and waged war with satan and his demons....my thoughts are...it 's hard to think of Jehovah God allowing satan and his demons to currently be in his precense in heavan.....beings we can't say one way or another dogmatically....I as a JW can point to the year as being significant as far as the first world war and the industrialist age and such....war weapons sure increased....you would think something or someone had something to do with things changing so drastically....but on the other hand whose to say things will not become much more worse and we will know for sure a battle was waged and satan and his demons are definitely confined to earth..knowing they have a short time...

Take Care

[Jeshurun]

Hi again Olm

I haven't come to learn what any other religions are teaching about that topic, but what I do know is that most religions of Christendom apply the entire prophecy of Revelation to the Roman Empire of the Emperor Nero days, as ridiculous and absurd as that is, as it is obviously a future event. But the bottom line is that it would serve Satan's best interests to lull readers of God's Word into believing that they already happened, it would serve to keep people offguard and taken by surprise when it does happen. And after all, that really is the purpose of religion, to keep people slumbering in the darkness when it comes to the Day of Jehovah. That was also the reason for Paul's admonition to the Thessalonians about not believing inspired expressions about the day being here, and that the apostasy would have to come first.

We don't know when the 'apostasy' officially began, but the NGO setup of 1991 could be about right. Or maybe it isn't official yet at all, I'm certainly not qualified to say. But the man of lawlessness gets revealed when "the disgusting thing" is "standing in a holy place". If we understand those two identities properly (let the reader use discernment) then that will be an unmistakeable event. The 8th King that rises out of the abyss will stand aligned with the Watchtower, due to the presence of the evil slave which had long been planted there by Satan.

[Jeshurun]

Also, the ouster of Satan causes a profound disruption of his entire political system. The prophecies in Isaiah about the King of Tyre (UK) and Egypt (US) indicate that they fall as a result of the casting down. The way things are set up, a logical series of events would be:

Economic collapse of the US/UK, the death-stroke, and the ensuing anarchy during the time in the "abyss"

The US/UK revival in the form of the "image", the new neocon-controlled global government of the UN, or whatever they decide to call it. (Leviathan would fit)

Not sure where the Watchtower fits in here, but the way Bethel is set up, they would be out of business with the initial economic collapse.

[Kenneth]

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place."

The Lords day has not yet to begin.

When Michael battles with the Dragon and he's confined to the earth we will know about it.


Kenneth

[fruitage]

Goodmorning Olm...Kenneth and Jeshurun...hope that you are well this day given us...

Some very good points have been brought out....

Jeshurun...you brought out that satan would attack Gods people , and also that most of religious institutions teach that the Roman empire is what Rev. is speaking of ...yes...also the Roman empire can be the applied to the U.S.A. today...don't you think that the U.S. is the antitypical Roman empire which was once the most powerful and savvy government of its day.....

When the USA/UK collapse this should signal something to Gods people...

I am looking forward to studying the Rev. book....the WTS might not have it all right and of course they don't..but we hungrily look for treasure to discover and pray all the while for Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth we need to know, at a time when we need to know...

Kenneth...Yes...the Lords day has not begun as far as Jesus taking action...but we can know he is with us in Holy Spirit...as the scriptures say where two or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them....and He is with us until the conclusion....

Have a blessed day

your sis

[Jeshurun]

Good morning Fruitage

Actually I don't know what's worse, writing off the Revelation to the 1st or 2nd century, or writing it off to the 20th century. Either way, its deception.
The USA is simply the most powerful military nation that ever existed, and certainly the greatest Republic ever. Interesting how it falls at the hands of the Empire, once again, but this time it happens economically. Fitting, since Satan's world is all about money.

But as far as application to today, the major religions simply have no clue. The Catholic Church teaches that the Revelation will be fulfilled at the end of the world, somewhere far down the road when the Antichrist appears. The church teaches that it is the "restraint" to the man of lawlessness, and the antichrist can never come until the church is out of the way. Well, they're almost right, they just don't know that their end is right around the corner.

New York City seems to be bound to become the new World Capital, and in the old prophets, the "City of Tearing Down" seems to fit New York.

Hope you're having a great morning.
Lou

[Molly]

Hi Olm-

I don't know if the war has begun in heaven or not but I do believe that Satan is presently getting his ducks in a row for the big event. After all, we have to endure the part about nation rising against nation, food shortages, and earthquakes. Assuming that will the ride of the horsemen from Revelation, that will be a horrible experience. And that is the "beginning of the pangs of distress." "In fact if those days were not cut short , no flesh would be saved: but on account of the chosen those days will be cut short." Are those days the result of Satan being thrown down to the vicinity of the earth? Probably. But he's been getting ready for a while now. Many people other than JW's thought that WWI and WWII were the ride of the horsemen, and that seemed reasonable at the time. Now it doesn't look like that was the case.

The one thing I do believe is that when Satan is thrown down, those on the watch will realize it and react. (After all, we're good at it - we've been practicing for a century.) This is to be the most decisive event in history. So, I don't think it can be attributed to some obscure events, such as someone giving a talk, or a handful of men in prison for a few months. No area of the earth will be out of reach and no individual will be safe at that time.

This is the part that really upsets me. Most JW's have really no idea of the magnitude of the destruction that is about to envelope the earth. They think that part is behind them (WWI &WWII). They are waiting for Babylon the Great to go down, not realizing that they are at some point after the outbreak of this destruction on the hit list. They are going to be blind-sided. And you can't even effectively warn them.

The one thing that we can be sure of is that the generation alive at that time won't die until it all happens. As JW's we have been used to waiting decades and decades for things to happen. I prefer to think of a generation as noted in Matt. 1: 17: "All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were fourteen generations, and from David until the departation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ fourteen generations." That's a normal, reasonable understanding of a generation.

We see so many things happening right now that suggest that events are shaping up for the grand finale. As Jesus said at Matt. 24: 32: "Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." Do I think that Satan has been thrown down. Not yet. But I do think it's close! The tree looks like it's budding.

Molly

[Nambo]

Hi Olm

Evidently Satan attacks Jehovah's people as a first order of business, and it is an unmistakable time of persecution, especially on the anointed remnant. Here's a couple of scriptures that might help:

Isaiah 28:16 "Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone....no one exercising faith will get panicky."

Revelation 12:¹³ Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. ¹⁴ But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

So the 42 months of the tribulation commences with that event of Satan being thrown down. Then Jesus' first order of business after the kingdom is set up is the inspection of the temple. He overthrows the money changers again, so the Watchtower's fall is probably the first sign of his being thrown down.

Hope this helps, there's probably more somewhere.

Lou[/b]

This 42 months, or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years or time times and half a time come up in a lot of places, it must be very important, certainly more important than the societies explaination of the days at the end of Daniel ie the whole climax of the book of Daniel is that you where happy if you stayed in the truth else you would have missed the Cedar Point convention or something, is that still going to be taught in this revelation book study?

Personally I think "Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days" because this will be the one who has endured the 42 months of Christian persecution and has ebdured to the end to be saved!

So, the "Male Child", is this Jesus coming in Kingdom power on the Earth?, cannot remember the societies explaination. If it is then maybe it could all go like this.

Jesus second coming, rather than happening over a period of getting on for a 100 years with very little happening, comes at the same time as Satan is hurled down


" And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4 (http://) and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. 5 (http://) And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6 (http://) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 (http://) And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 (http://) but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven.

So it looks like Satan is trying to destroy Jesus Kingdom as soon as it is born, but it is fed for the 42 months and protected and Satan is hurled down to Earth where instead he persecutes the "remaining ones of her seed"

17 (http://) And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

Now rev 13 says

3 (http://) And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 (http://) And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 (http://) And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 (http://) And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 (http://) And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

So the just as Satan goes to wage war with the remaining ones of the Annointed for time times and half a time, we see here that the wild beast, after it recovers from its death stroke, is given authority to act, once again, 42 months in which it can speack great things and blaspheme against God and most importantly wage war with the Holy ones.

This might well occur in the same time period as when the Image of the best is created and everybody is put under compulsion to worship it and get the mark of the beast, and why wouldnt the persecution of Gods people not happen at the same time as them refusing to worship the wild beast?

Rev 11

2 (http://) But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 (http://) And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.”

The Temple Courtyard has been given to the nations to tramble, once again for 42 months,,and in this period the two witnesses will be in sackcloth, the same 42 months as the wild beast has authority over the Holy Ones?, the same 42 months that the newly born Male Child is fed in the wilderness and at the same time period, 42 months?, that Satan is cast to the Earth where he persecutes the remnant for 42 months?

Daniel 12

“How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” 7 (http://) And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

8 (http://) Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?”

Once again, the dashing of the power of the Holy ones, 42 months

And finally



11 (http://) “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 (http://) “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!

Removing the Constant feature, stopping any worship to Jehovah and causing people to worship a disgusting thing standing in a Holy Place which will be the Image of the Beast or One World Order, 1290 days, once again, pretty close to 42 months.

Looks to me like in a 3 1/2 year period we get the lot, Gods Kingdom, Satan being cast down to Earth, the establishment of the New World Order and its requirement to worship it, and the persecution of Gods people which then ends at Armaggedon.

All in 42 months. Shortly followed at 1335 days by something much more wonderfull than the Cedar Point Convention.

[Jeshurun]

Thanks Brother Nambo

This raises a question for me. There are certainly a lot of events that have to take place before the beast rises out of the abyss. Such as the 7th king falling, and total anarchy until order is restored after global government is arranged. According to this though, all of that would have to precede the beginning of the 42 month. This would mean that a prelude to the actual Great Tribulation takes place. What's your take? Or anyone's take?

Lou

[Nambo]

Thanks Brother Nambo

This raises a question for me. There are certainly a lot of events that have to take place before the beast rises out of the abyss. Such as the 7th king falling, and total anarchy until order is restored after global government is arranged. According to this though, all of that would have to precede the beginning of the 42 month. This would mean that a prelude to the actual Great Tribulation takes place. What's your take? Or anyone's take?

Lou[/b]

Good point Lou,
I know its said Revelation isnt actually in order?, but prior to the 42 months of the 2 witnesses in sackcloth in REV 11, you have the seven trumpet blasts, 3 woes, 7 thunders, rather a lot of dying seems to take place.
And maybe the signs of Jesus presence somewhat precedes his establishment of the Kingdom?, Iam just guessing now.

Or maybe Humans on thier own bring about these calamities before the Kingdom and Presence actually arrive?
You know yourself Lou about the Illuminati having been manipulating world events for a few hundred years now, across generations, in preparation for thier New World Order, revolutions and world wars, they intend to make things a lot worst for us so that we will all be only too willing to give up our national soverignty in exchange for the "Peace and Security" of thier One World Order.

Order out of Chaos is thier moto, maybe it is some action of thiers that puts the beast in the abbyss first and when they most need it, so that they wonder admiringly when it comes out?

Whats your take on the 7th King falling?, is this in relation to the death stroke that got healed?
I would have thought that all of the 7 Kings would fall anyway in order to give the rulership to the 8th King which springs from the 7/

[Jeshurun]

Whats your take on the 7th King falling?, is this in relation to the death stroke that got healed?
I would have thought that all of the 7 Kings would fall anyway in order to give the rulership to the 8th King which springs from the 7/[/b]

The way I understand it is:
The 7th and current Anglo-American King receives its death stroke at the hands of the King of the North (the financiers). So it is most likely initiated by an economic collapse triggered by some world event. This causes other currencies to collapse and economic depression becomes worldwide. At this time they put the UN in place as the 8th King. The previous 6 kings (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) are long gone, but the seven heads represents the entire political organization of Satan on earth today. (the WT got that one right).

This all brings me back to a thread I brought up a few weeks ago. There may still be some significance to the "7 Times" of the two different visions in Daniel, one where Nebuchadnezzar had lycanthropy and the other where the tree was chopped down but the rootstock was bound up. I think its a possibility that from the time of the death-stroke until Armageddon could be a total of 7 years. Also, there is a 45 day difference between the 1290 days and the 1335 days. I think maybe the 42 months ends, then they can claim true peace and security, and after 45 days Jehovah brings the denunciation to a finish. Whattaya think?

[Olm]

lots of intresting thoughts, thanks to all for responding to this post. i personaly think that the war in Heaven has not happen yet. as someone said above, when it happens we will know. but is there a period of time between satan being thrown down to earth and the tribulation starting? or is it satan thrown down to earth and tribulation starting at that time?

[Jeshurun]

Hi Olm
The scriptures are saying that it is a synonamous event, when Satan is thrown down his entire political organization goes into upheaval. As far as what specific event will mark the beginning of the tribulation, we will have to wait and see. What we have established is that he will spend 42 months terrorizing Jehovah's people, and will pursue the anointed remnant until he has martyred them all. The ironic thing is, each one that he kills will just be one more nail in his own coffin.

Lou

[Nambo]

The way I understand it is:
The 7th and current Anglo-American King receives its death stroke at the hands of the King of the North (the financiers). So it is most likely initiated by an economic collapse triggered by some world event. This causes other currencies to collapse and economic depression becomes worldwide. At this time they put the UN in place as the 8th King. The previous 6 kings (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) are long gone, but the seven heads represents the entire political organization of Satan on earth today. (the WT got that one right).

This all brings me back to a thread I brought up a few weeks ago. There may still be some significance to the "7 Times" of the two different visions in Daniel, one where Nebuchadnezzar had lycanthropy and the other where the tree was chopped down but the rootstock was bound up. I think its a possibility that from the time of the death-stroke until Armageddon could be a total of 7 years. Also, there is a 45 day difference between the 1290 days and the 1335 days. I think maybe the 42 months ends, then they can claim true peace and security, and after 45 days Jehovah brings the denunciation to a finish. Whattaya think?[/b]

Hi Lou, whilst I agree with you about something like finaciers causing the death stroke of the anglo-american wp, though I think it will involve war as well, I agree from a secular study standpoint, can you indicate anythink from the scriptures that the King of the North is the financiers?, I would have thought they would be on the same side as the UN-NWO anyway.

Thing is, when Satan is thrown out of heaven he gives authority to the wild beast that had the death stroke that was no healed and then an image to the beast is made.

Now the society say this image is like a mirror image of the governments that made it, ie the UN, wiether this is the case or wither they end up making a sacred pole like Nebuchadnezzar had, the wild beast has allready had the death stroke and allready recovered from it by the time the UN becomes the 8th King, you also have to fit in the UN going into and then coming out of the abbyss.

The society say the death storke of the 7th head was the calapse of England during the 1914 war and the Wild beast going in and out the abbyss was the League of Nations finishing during the 2nd world war and indeed Rutherford used this scripture to say it would come back, which indeed it did, as the UN.
But when you read Rev 13 it is the wild beast with the sword stroke that is given authority to wage war with the Holy Ones for 42 months and who people worship with the result thier names are not in the book of life.
Not the UN.

And also, Babylon the Great is shown riding the Wild beast that came out of the Abbyss, the UN?, yet surely religion has been fornicating more with the original wild beast down through the ages, (unless BTG is really Zionism which does have a lot to do with the establishment of the UN-NWO and would also indicate her Harlotry is real as she actually was married to Jehovah in the guise of fleshly Israel).

I wonder if the death stroke that got healed and the going into the abbyss and back are really two ways of saying the same thing? The beasts do look the same, mind you, so does Satan, and why does the Anglo-American Lamb beast want to get people to worship the 7 headed beast if they are the only surviving part of it anyway?

Lou, what can you make of this train of thought?

One beast that looks like Satan anyway, having 7 heads and 10 horns pretty much representing all the Satanic Kingdoms of the World, hence why it looks like Satan, all united in the one beast.......sounds to me like what is most important to Satan, the One World Order, or Satanic messianic kingdom, and its the banking elite of the Anglo American world power that at this moment is trying to establish the One World order.

And how about this then, the One World Order allready existed back in ancient Babylon, when it was run by Nimrod in opposition to Jehovah, and it recieved a "death stroke" by Jehovah when the languages where confused, and it has since been in the abbyss for 4000 yeras, and we now for a fact that the Zionist/Illuminati/Elite are trying to get back a One World order, which could be a death stroke that healed and the beast of the OWO of Babel, coming out of the 4000 year abyess as the New World Order.

As for Babylon the great, the religious side of this Nimrod One World Order, that has kept those Nimrod worshipping traditions, even and especially Cabalistic Jews/Freemasons, who will be riding the new World Order with thier planned One World Religion!

[Nambo]

For what its worth, from the other horses mouth so-to-speak

Dr Rudolf Steiner, a clairvoyant from childhood, reported in 1917 from the various spiritual planes he claims to have visited, that in the last 3 decades of the 19th century, in the inner plane, there was a war between the forces of Ahriman and the forces of light which totally won with the result that many demonic beings where cast down to Earth.

Hardly a trustworthy source but I wonder what purpose is served by the demons claiming to have been cast down around the end of the 1800s?

Maybe it explains the Victorians seeming obsession with Occult, seances and the like?
Also seems like the time period when a lot of other Spiritual activety occurred on the Earth with the many new end of the world religions, (like Jehovahs Witnesses), sprang up?

Perhaps the society isnt too far off with 1914 after all?

[Shibboleth]

Ancient Babylon was decimated by kings from the north. Ancient Babylon was a powerful kingdom as well as a hub for false religion. Rome was sometimes known as Babylon.

How does the U.S. fit in?

It is also a major world power. In fact it is the world power. It is also a hub of false religion. It is also a financial giant. It has a huge military might. It sits atop the UN in the Security Council.

Persia was the 'kings of the north' that decimated Babylon. Persia is now known as Iran. Iran has been gaining many alliances with South American dictatorships. They also have an alliance with Cuba.

If the U.S. goes to war with Iran the U.S. is toast. Financially and millitarially the U.S. will not be able to hold up. It has strapped the economy and the military.

All people can do is watch as Bush (antichrist) destroys the U.S. with his pigheaded stupidity. One thought one action one hook to drag them all in.

It's closer then you think.



Regards,

Shibboleth