Questions

[joyful]

Is it ok to ask biblical questions?

[Olm]

yes, do you have one you would like to ask?

[joyful]

thank you,

Selection of 144,000: Does WTS's reasoning make sense?

another one is that according to WTS, book of Revelation is mostly about the 144,000 servants; do they make sense?

[joyful]

Hello anyone???

and here is another one:


:
Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.'[/b]

Why do OT have so many harsh punishment such as these?

thank you

[Olm]

Lets try one question at a time. You said the selection of the 144,000 does the WTS reasoning make sence. Well if your asking are there really only 144,000 that go to heaven then yes there reasoning makes sence. Your second question is, is the book of revelation mostly about the 144,000 and does it make sence. Well I would say its more about the 144,000 then about those who will live on earth. But its not all about the 144,000. Not sure what you mean by does it make sence. Need a little more detail about your question. If you would like me to provide you scriptures about any of your questions let me know, just give me a little more detail about what your question is. Have a good day.

[joyful]

Ok, I will make more specific:

They are saying that people who go to heaven will know before hand. Does this make sense? WTS is saying that because Paul knew he will be in heaven so everone else will know too. I don't think that is good enough. How about people who are not in their organization? I don't believe only their organization will be one of 144,000.

[Olm]

good quesions, well time for me to pull out my bible and get some scriptures for you i'll be back with some scriptures. I'll post them up sometime soon today. or maybe someone will beat me to it but i'll still get them for you.

[joyful]

Another question:

Why did satan ask YHWH to tempt Job? Does he need His permission to tempt us?

[Olm]

Well joyful, I dont believe there is a scripture that says anyone who is apart of the 144,000 will have a feeling inside them. I could be wrong but I don't believe there is a scripture that says this. I don't feel that I have this hope of being apart of the 144,000 so I can't say what the feeling is like. As far as only JWs being apart of the 144,000 and no other person, I am not the judge so I could not say that "Yes only JWs can be of the 144,000 and no one else". Its not anyone on earths privilege to say this. It is Jehovah and Jesus who do the choosing. I know some chirstians that don't celebrate hoildays and dont get involved in goverment and worldy things, and they use the name Jehovah, yet they are not JWs. They are very good people and who's to say they couldn't be apart of the 144,000. Does it make sence if they know before hand you say? Well sure, it does make sence to know whether they know if they have this heavenly hope or not. In the book of both 1peter and 2peter we know that the chosen ones know before hand. Peter says in 1peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Chirst, to the temporary residents scattered about in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia Asia, and Bithynia, to the ones chosen...joyful read the both 1 and 2 peter, i'll answer your other questions a little later I must go for now. Take care.

[James]

Another question:

Why did satan ask YHWH to tempt Job? Does he need His permission to tempt us?[/b]

Hi Joyful,

When speaking to people face to face, do you spell out YHWH, or say Yahweh or just say God?

Regards,
James

[joyful]

James,

Since JW showed me YHWH in the Scripture I usually spell "YHWH" when I write. JW's explanation makes sense to me. It seems Yahweh is more closer than Jehovah. To People who do not know God and Jesus I usually say God instead of Yahweh. I also explain to them God's name is Yahweh or Jehovah. God wants us to use His name instead of God.

why do you ask?

[joyful]

Well joyful, I dont believe there is a scripture that says anyone who is apart of the 144,000 will have a feeling inside them. I could be wrong but I don't believe there is a scripture that says this. I don't feel that I have this hope of being apart of the 144,000 so I can't say what the feeling is like. As far as only JWs being apart of the 144,000 and no other person, I am not the judge so I could not say that "Yes only JWs can be of the 144,000 and no one else". Its not anyone on earths privilege to say this. It is Jehovah and Jesus who do the choosing. I know some chirstians that don't celebrate hoildays and dont get involved in goverment and worldy things, and they use the name Jehovah, yet they are not JWs. They are very good people and who's to say they couldn't be apart of the 144,000. Does it make sence if they know before hand you say? Well sure, it does make sence to know whether they know if they have this heavenly hope or not. In the book of both 1peter and 2peter we know that the chosen ones know before hand. Peter says in 1peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Chirst, to the temporary residents scattered about in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia Asia, and Bithynia, to the ones chosen...joyful read the both 1 and 2 peter, i'll answer your other questions a little later I must go for now. Take care.[/b]

I am asking this because there are unloving things are going on and those chosen people don't seem to notice it. That makes me doubt about JW's chosen 144,000 servants. I know it may sound judgemental but this is my honest opinion.

[Olm]

joyful read Romens 11 all of it. pay attention to the part about the branches. but read all of Romens 11.

[Olm]

Also Matthew 22:14 "For there are many invited, but few chosen".

[joyful]

joyful read Romens 11 all of it. pay attention to the part about the branches. but read all of Romens 11.[/b]

All I read from this chapter is importance of obedience. Now are you saying that all WTS people will be saved no matter what? Is that what you are trying to tell me?

[joyful]

Also Matthew 22:14 "For there are many invited, but few chosen".[/b]

I understand that chosen people are obedient servants. You are saying I am wrong?

[Olm]

Ok i think you missed the point of romens 11 and matthew 22:14 as of now i dont have time to show you what i wanted you to get from them so at a later time i'll explain them to you. i gave them to you to answr your last question about the unloving chosen ones that you mentioned.

[James]

James,

Since JW showed me YHWH in the Scripture I usually spell "YHWH" when I write. JW's explanation makes sense to me. It seems Yahweh is more closer than Jehovah. To People who do not know God and Jesus I usually say God instead of Yahweh. I also explain to them God's name is Yahweh or Jehovah. God wants us to use His name instead of God.

why do you ask?[/b]

I asked because in all your posts you seemed to only use YHWH, which is the english translation of the tetragrammaton, which is fine to use. As you probably learned in your bible study that most religions refuse to say God's name (Jehovah) and you said you came from a Protestant background. So, with you being new here, I thought I would ask. :)

James

[joyful]

James,

I have learned a lot from JW and I truly appreciate it and changed so many things like not to celebrate secular holidays, christmas, not to join the military, not to use cross and etc.. but I also thought elders are prideful and so puffed up because of their knowledge. We are supposed to be humble when we have the truth; they seem to be going the opposite IMHO.

[barry]

regarding the pronounciation of God's name Robert has written a mailbag answer some time ago about Yahweh or Jehovah.

http://e-watchman.com/mailbag/2003/september-14-2003.html

You can find it at point 23

regards,
Barry

[Nambo]

Hi Joyfull, you asked, "Why do OT have so many harsh punishment such as these? "

Something I too wonder about when you see how easily our God of Love deals out death.

I would imagine its something to do with the following.

All sin is deserving of death.
Jesus is the sacrificial Price Jehovah paid for us in atonement for sin.
The Hebrews didnt have Jesus, they just had animal sacrifices, maybe animal sacrifices could never pay the price of the severity of the sins you mentioned?
The law of the Israelities was said to be both a "curse" and a "tutor leading to the Christ", you can see why it was a curse, Jehovahs requiments are exacting and death dealing, the people of the Nations didnt get stoned to death for commiting adultery.
Its also a tutor leading to Christ as it shows us how difficult it is for people to be perfect on thier own and the terrible consequences of the sin we find it hard not to do, which is why we so much need Jesus help and ransom sacrifice as the examples you quote show the dangers of trying to walk with God on our own.

[billy]

Hello anyone???

and here is another one:


:
Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.'[/b]

Why do OT have so many harsh punishment such as these?

thank you

[/b]

<span style="font-family:Arial Black">

I feel once you come to really know Jehovah and the more we understand the benefits of following Jehovahs principles – we too will find these practices revolting and can see how damaging they would be to a healthy society – I think there is a scripture that says “they wont even come up into the heart” :)

[joyful]

Thank you billy and nambo for your input. I truly appreciate your help.

[joyful]

hello, olm? I am still waiting for you.

[Olm]

joyful ok i&#39;ll get you an answer tonight if not then tomorrow but i&#39;ll most likely give you an answer tonight. i just need to do something at home first.

[Olm]

I am asking this because there are unloving things are going on and those chosen people don&#39;t seem to notice it. That makes me doubt about JW&#39;s chosen 144,000 servants. I know it may sound judgemental but this is my honest opinion

This is what you asked me joyful and then I gave you Romens 11 to read and Matthew 22:14. It seems that you didnt understand what I wanted you to get out of those scriptures. So i&#39;ll try to explain them.

The chosen ones that are not noticing what is going on or the unloving chosen ones. When reading Romens 11:17 we read about the branches. The root bears the branches and every bad branch is choped off. Meaning any person who is of God that is in this tree being one of the branches, but starts to lack faith or becomes unloving, that branch is choped off and then there is an opening. This allows for others even though they may not be from the 12 tribes of Isreal, can be grafted into this tree.

When reading Matthew 22:14 "For there are many invited, but few chosen". Many people are called to be in this group of 144,000. But as we know only 144,000 can be of this group, so not everyone who is called is found in enough good standing to be taken. Some that are chosen to be in this group fall away from it, example the branches, a branch can be choped off and a new branch can be grafted into this tree. However even if some of those chosen ones lack faith but change their ways back toward God they can be grafted back in the tree Romens 11:23. Reading further to Romens 11:25, you will read "For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in. As you can see these branches represent the 144,000 when it says "until the full number".

joyful there are going to be those who claim to be chosen and apart of the 144,000 but there will be some that are as these branches that are choped off. Yes there are some unloving brothers and sisters who are chosen. I hope I have helped, if not then please ask another person, maybe someone else can give you better help. Have a good day.

[joyful]

Thank you olm. My question is that only WTS people are chosen? Why do they know before hand and not anyone else who dont belong to WTS? I just cannot believe only WTS will be chosen. I can understand that trinitarian churches will not be part of 144,000 but i believe there are many others that do not belong to mainstream and still following Jesus.

anyone?

[Olm]

I think I mentioned in an earlyer post about some people I know that are not JWs yet they don&#39;t celebrate holidays or get involed in worldly things, and they use the name Jehovah. I said that, who knows, maybe these people could be apart of the 144,000. Only Jehovah can make this choice. Are only JWs going to be apart of the 144,000, well probably not, i&#39;d say most the people will be of the people back with Jesus. We know they did not teach things such as 1914 and the dates that go with it as JWs do so in a since they are not JWs, they are christains that were with Jesus. Romens 11:23-24 "They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!" I&#39;d say most of the 144,000 will be out of the 12 tribes of Isreal. But as I have mentioned before about the cutting off the branches and other branches that are not of the same tree will be grafted in. JWs follow the closest to the teachings of the early Christains.

[joyful]

thank you olm, please stay with me.

You know that WTS is kind of new organization. there must have some true believers before they organized JW. that&#39;s what I am really getting at.

[Olm]

Well your asking if there were anyone who could be apart of the 144,000 between the time of Jesus and before the time the JWs became known. Well yes, many of the christains during the time of Jesus became apart of the 144,000. Now the question may be, what about after the time of Jesus but before the time of JWs became known? Really joyful no one can say for sure. How long did people after Jesus continue to belive that Jesus was the Son of God and that Jehovah was God until the trinity came in? During the time of the trinity how many people rejected this idea and continued to belive in the truth? No one knows. I&#39;m sure some people became apart of the 144,000 after the time of Jesus, maybe 100&#39;s of years after but 100&#39;s of years before JWs. joyful know one knows for sure. The 144,000 is not made up of only JWs, like i mentioned in earlier post the christians or disciples of Jesus did not teach all the things that JWs teach today. 144,000 in my opinion are mostly made up of the 12 tribes of Israel or the disciples of Jesus, male and female. Yes there will be many JWs who are apart of 144,000. Even today, i&#39;m sure there will be some people who are not JWs that are apart of 144,000. Hope this helps, i&#39;ll keep trying until you understand or someone else helps you to understand. Have a good day.

[Jinnvisible]

Another question:

Why did satan ask YHWH to tempt Job? Does he need His permission to tempt us?[/b]

<div align="left">[/b]<span style="color:#0000ff">Job 2:2 Then Jehovah said to Satan: "Just where do you come from?" At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: "From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it</div>
</span>

[Juan]

Ok, I will make more specific:

They are saying that people who go to heaven will know before hand. Does this make sense? WTS is saying that because Paul knew he will be in heaven so everone else will know too. I don&#39;t think that is good enough. How about people who are not in their organization? I don&#39;t believe only their organization will be one of 144,000.[/b]

The following are some scriptures that indicate the two hopes – earthly and heavenly. Note 2 Cor 1:21-22 and Gal 4:6-7, where the choosing is made known to the individual&#39; s heart. In Rom 9:16 it clearly shows that the one who does the choosing is God, not the person.



(1 John 2:1-2) My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. ² And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world&#39;s.



(Luke 12:32) "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.



(John 10:16) "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.



(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.



(Revelation 20:4-6) And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.



(Revelation 14:1-5) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. ³ And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. ⁴ These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, ⁵ and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.



(1 John 2:20) And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge.



(2 Corinthians 1:21-22) But he who guarantees that YOU and we belong to Christ and he who has anointed us is God. ²² He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.



(Romans 8:15-17) For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: "Abba, Father!" ¹⁶ The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God&#39;s children. ¹⁷ If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.



(Galatians 4:6-7) Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: "Abba, Father!" ⁷ So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.



(1 Peter 1:3-4) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ⁴ to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU,



(1 John 3:2) Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.



(Romans 6:3) Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?



(Jeremiah 31:31-34) "Look! There are days coming," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; ³² not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, &#39;which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,&#39; is the utterance of Jehovah." ³³ "For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days," is the utterance of Jehovah. "I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people." ³⁴ "And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, &#39;KNOW Jehovah!&#39; for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more."



(Hebrews 12:22-24) But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, ²³ in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, ²⁴ and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel&#39;s .



(Galatians 3:26-29) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. [b]²⁷ For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. ²⁹ Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham&#39;s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.



(Acts 15:14) Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.



(Luke 22:28-30) "However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; ²⁹ and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, ³⁰ that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.



(Romans 9:16) So, then, it depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.



(Hebrews 5:4-5) Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also [was]. ⁵ So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father."



(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.





(1 Peter 1:23) For YOU have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.



(2 Corinthians 5:17) Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence.



(2 Peter 1:5-11) Yes, for this very reason, by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, ⁶ to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, ⁷ to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. ⁸ For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. ⁹ For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes [to the light], and has become forgetful of his cleansing from his sins of long ago. ¹⁰ For this reason, brothers, all the more do YOUR utmost to make the calling and choosing of YOU sure for yourselves; for if YOU keep on doing these things YOU will by no means ever fail. ¹¹ In fact, thus there will be richly supplied to YOU the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[joyful]

thank you everyone for your help.