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littleone
06-19-2007, 09:41 PM
"For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him. Therefore also through him is the "Amen" [said] to God for glory through us."-2 Cor 1:20

All the promises of God are found throughout the Hebrew scriptures. Any utterance that Jehovah made must go forth and not return to him without the said results, for it is impossible for God to lie. Jehovah honors his word, if anything can be trusted in most, it would have to be that the word that Jehovah has spoken will without fail come true. He is not a sloppy God.

But how do you know the word that Jehovah has spoken? Many have given interpretations that they have said are divinely given, but which later have proven false. Many were misled by these interpretations for various reasons. But as stated above, Jehovah is not a sloppy God. In his word the bible lies all the answers his servants need to determine if such interpretations are from God or not. Let's consider this. Revelation 19:10(b part) says: "Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying." As stated above, Jehovah honors his word, therefore he must honor this scripture.

The very first prophecy given was by Jehovah himself. This is found in the book of Genesis in chapter 3. Here the man, the woman, and the serpent are brought before the great King and Judge, Jehovah himself. After having sinned, these three are brought before him for judgement. In passing out that sentence, Jehovah utters the first prophecy. If the rules we have just established are true, Jehovah must honor them,---he does. Let's see what he says that bears witness to Jesus. "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."-Gen 3:15 Here in the first prophecy recorded in the bible, Jehovah bears witness to Jesus by calling him the 'seed'. Yes, it is through him that Jehovah planned to restore mankind from its fallen state, and it is also through him that Jehovah justifies his universal sovreignty and removes the slander (by the serpent) on his most holy name. It is also through Jesus that the serpents head gets crushed, thus removing all opposition to Jehovah's sovreignty. Yes, ALL PROPHECY THAT COMES FROM JEHOVAH BEARS WITNESS TO JESUS. Jesus is the "Amen" said to all the promises of Jehovah. -2Cor1:20

All Jehovah's prophecies are found in the Hebrew Scriptures, therefore Jesus is the "Amen" said to the Hebrew Scriptures. All the 'types' or 'shadows' of the things to come are found in the Hebrew Scriptures, likewise the reality is found in Christ. All the sacrifices, and ALL the provisions for salvation, and also for destruction were "Amen" through him. Yes, ALL PROPHECY THAT COMES FROM JEHOVAH BEARS WITNESS TO JESUS. -But where did he become the "Amen" to them?

"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy but to FULFILL; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and all things take place"-Matt 5:17,18

Yes, Jesus came [in the flesh] to the earth to fulfill all the promises spoken by Jehovah (the 'Law and the Prophets' is what they called the 'hebrew scriptures'). He fulfilled them ALL. By word or by deed Jesus did indeed become the "Amen" to all the promises written in the Hebrew Scriptures. Where in the bible do we find the "Amen" to all these promises? In the Gospels. Yes, we are given four accounts of the 'ministry' of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Therefore all the hebrew scriptures have a fulfillment in Christ. Either in WORD or DEED he became the fulfillment to all the promises of God.

Even future prophecies must bear witness to Jesus, as stated in Rev 19:10. Why? Because he became the "Amen" to ALL the promises of God. The apostle John bears witness to this in 1John chapter 4. There he says "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because MANY FALSE PROPHETS have gone forth into the world." A big problem!!! Many false prophets are uttering forth inspired expressions. Wow! Which to believe? How will we know if it originated from God or not? Wait! John gives us the answer......"You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God." Yes, like said above, Jesus became the "Amen" to all the promises of God (the Hebrew Scriptures) when he came in the flesh, during his ministry.

So if we are to look in the Hebrew Scriptures and find a prophecy (given by God), we must also find the "Amen" said to it in Jesus Christ in order to have the right interpretation. For instance, if one brings an interpretation of a prophecy, he must furnish where God said it (in the Hebrew Scriptures) and then must also show the the "Amen" said to it through Jesus Christ. So he MUST show the fulfillment in Christ. Yes, he has to find a parellel in the scriptures (both hebrew and the gospels) to establish the interpretation as true.

John goes on to say "but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist's [inspired expression] which you have heard was coming..." Yes, if it does not confess Jesus Christ (by the things he said or did) it does not originate with God. Therefore any of the prophesies given by the apostles in the Christian Greek Scriptures bore witness to Christ. Yes, carefully concealed in him is all the sacred secrets of Jehovah!


__________________________________________________ _____________
Hebrew Scriptures-->Jesus Christ<---Christian Greek Scriptures
**********************(Gospels)
** ***All true prophecy bears witness to Jesus Christ***
__________________________________________________ _____________

HOW FULFILLED?

Some would say that "When his (Jehovah&#39;s) due time arrives to bring about the physical facts by which those devoted to him can see that these facts are in fulfillment of prophecy, then the prophecy can be understood." IS THIS SO? In order to find the answer to this, we must look in God&#39;s Word the bible to find the answer. It is impossible for God to lie, and also as brought out above, JEHOVAH HONORS HIS WORD. So lets take a look at a few scriptures to see if this is so:

Amos 3:7 "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."

Isaiah 42:9 "The first things- here they have come but new things I am telling out. Before they begin to spring up, I cause YOU people to hear [them]"

Does any of this bear witness to Jesus Christ?

John 16:13 "However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the THINGS COMING."

Yes, Jehovah always reveals his things to his servants BEFORE they happen. He cannot deny his own word. As a matter of fact, he even gave name of individuals, hundreds of years before they were even born to his prophets before those events occured (Isaiah 44). As stated above, Jehovah is NOT a sloppy God. And he honors his Word.

If infact a prophecy was interpreted after the fact, after the events had already occured, could it be that Jehovah is a liar? May that never happen! But let God be found true, though every man a liar.-Rom 3:4 The simple biblical truth is .......It was not from Jehovah.

DoubtingThomas
06-20-2007, 01:30 AM
Prophecy was not always clear before it was fulfilled littleone. It was revealed to the prophets and heard by God&#39;s people it is true. But they did always get the sense of it piror to fulfillment.

DT

littleone
06-20-2007, 04:37 PM
Prophecy was not always clear before it was fulfilled littleone. It was revealed to the prophets and heard by God&#39;s people it is true. But they did always get the sense of it piror to fulfillment.

DT[/b]I am not sure what scriptures in particular you&#39;re refering to. Could you please supply me with some scriptures so that I can review them? Thank-You.

DoubtingThomas
06-20-2007, 07:55 PM
Hi Littleone. The examples that come to my mind are the many prophecies concerning the Messiah that are contained in the Hebrew scriptures, but were not fully understood until after Christ first coming.

Also some of Daniels visions and prophecies that are sealed up (not fully understood) until the time of the end.

DT

littleone
06-20-2007, 08:24 PM
Hi Littleone. The examples that come to my mind are the many prophecies concerning the Messiah that are contained in the Hebrew scriptures, but were not fully understood until after Christ first coming.

Also some of Daniels visions and prophecies that are sealed up (not fully understood) until the time of the end.

DT[/b]

Hi DoubtingThomas,

Concerning the examples of the many prophecies concerning Jesus Christ that are contained within the Hebrew Scriptures, they&#39;re still not fully understood. As a matter of fact, all the prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures had, or will have a fulfillment in Jesus Christ, because he is the "Amen" said to those prophecies. The scripture says: ""Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy but to FULFILL; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and all things take place"-Matt 5:17,18


Therefore, the "sacred secret" of the Christ is still becomming manifest.

No doubt the scriptures hold things in them about the future that has not yet been made understood to Jehovah&#39;s people. But when the "due time" for these things to be revealed comes, then these things will no doubt be given to them. But that will happen "before" these things come to pass.

You give an example of Daniel, where it speaks of prophecies that are "sealed up". We learn from Daniel that these things are not "sealed" up forever though. For there we read:

“And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.” - Daniel 12:4

This "sealing" of the books that the scripture speaks about no doubt means that these things will not become understood by Jehovah&#39;s people "until the time of the end". But what does it say? "Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." So in Jehovah&#39;s due time, it does mention that these things will be revealed to his people. This also shows us why it is impossible to foretell these things, or figure them out for ourselves, until Jehovah&#39;s due time to reveal them to his servants. But he will reveal them at a time "before" he acts. This way, those of his servants that are worthy to receive this knowledge will know these things "before Jehovah acts." Thus the fulfillment of these prophecies will prove to be the "proper food at the proper time" for those of Christ&#39;s followers when the due time for Jehovah to reveal them becomes manifest.

My whole point in the post above was to prove Jehovah true in the sense that he doesn&#39;t act and then reveal it to his servants, but first shows his true servants what he is going to do, then acts. Sure, there are mysteries that we do not understand, but simply because it is not the appropriate time to understand them.

DoubtingThomas
06-20-2007, 10:01 PM
I have a question on this littleone. The WTS believe they already have a clear and true understanding of prophecy. But so does Robert and many others here on this DB. So do you believe Jehovah has aleady revealed the true understanding of these prophecies we claim to understand to His people? And if so, who then are His people with the accurate understanding of prophecy, Robert King and those on this DB, or followers/believers of the WTS prophetic interpretations? Both claim to have true understanding, but both can&#39;t be right. We really won&#39;t know until it happens will we?

DT

littleone
06-20-2007, 10:53 PM
I have a question on this littleone. The WTS believe they already have a clear and true understanding of prophecy. But so does Robert and many others here on this DB. So do you believe Jehovah has aleady revealed the true understanding of these prophecies we claim to understand to His people? And if so, who then are His people with the accurate understanding of prophecy, Robert King and those on this DB, or followers/believers of the WTS prophetic interpretations? Both claim to have true understanding, but both can&#39;t be right. We really won&#39;t know until it happens will we?

DT[/b]Y&#39;know, the vine of Christ is a large vine. Those of his brothers receive a portion of that vine, but none of them ARE the whole vine. That said, his anointed followers get only a piece or a token of that vine... none receive the whole vine.

So you ask me, "So do you believe Jehovah has aleady revealed the true understanding of these prophecies we claim to understand to His people?" I do believe that Jehovah has revealed some, but definately not all. I think it would be presumptuous to say that he did already. Wouldn&#39;t you?

"And if so, who then are His people with the accurate understanding of prophecy, Robert King and those on this DB, or followers/believers of the WTS prophetic interpretations? Both claim to have true understanding, but both can&#39;t be right."

It is the one that follows their Master Jesus Christ, and does the will of Jehovah. - "By their fruits you will recognize them". I truly cannot say what Robert King and those of this DB truly believe. I have read over a couple of Robert&#39;s essays, and do agree with many things in them. However, I also do take exception to some of the things he believes. Does this mean that I think he is wicked? No. However, I do believe that if he is in Christ, that he only has some of Christ&#39;s things... not all. Therefore, should I thrust my hand against him because I do not believe some things? No. Likewise, he may take exception to some things I say and teach.

Remember, that when the "Master" arrives, he will give strokes to the "faithful" servant. Yes, these strokes are well deserved. However, it is in view of disciplining them to the correct path that he does so. Those who are the "evil" slave receive much worse a judgment.

So there you have it. Do you want me to choose between Robert King or the Watchtower? I won&#39;t, as I&#39;m not qualified to judge. However, if either one says something that bears witness to Christ, and it proves to be such... who am I to take that away?

So when it comes to prophecy, I&#39;ll say "Let Jehovah prove true, yet every man a liar."