The Sexual Orientation Regulations [Archive] - e-Jehovah's Witnesses: A Place for Jehovah's Witnesses and Interested Ones

dgibson

01-10-2007, 07:38 AM

I personally don't have a problem with the progress of laws prohibiting discrimination. I think that everyone has a choice of how to act, but the reiligious organizations have taken that right to personally choose your own way according to accurate knowledge, and wisdom, away by setting down rules according to their found truthful lies in their reasoning, and actively encouraging people to hate other people not following the masses under their control.

Instead of educating in a balanced, loving manner, throughout the ages, they have demanded followers to adhere to their interpretations of life according to scriptures, and many have dished out harmful acts to those not willing to do things their way, in the past ages.

Now, the WTBTS is quite different, in that all are educated through weekly programs, and feed on the same spiritual food equally. But they are still, not without spot of encouraging discrimination, from refusing for years to encourage through their magazines, that people of different sexual, or spiritual beliefs, are still people deserving of equal respect, the same that we would give our own spiritual family members. (Hate the practice, not the practicer, sort of assignment.)

Instead, through their silence, they encouraged for years the hatred toward those practicing, or being involved in wrongdoing, especially if they were ever associated with the truth up to baptism, or not.

There are countless experiences of victims, of friends working for a JW superior in the secular work place, or as an employee in a JW owned business, that when difficulty arose in their lives, and they decided to leave the Organization, or was disfellowshipped, that the JW took, or made moves too eliminate that persons employment on different grounds, (of course as a cover to be righteous in their discissions,) when in reality it would not have happened if they were still part of the WTBTS family.

I don't care what a person does, there is no reason for me, or anyone else in a position of oversight of that person, to treat them any different than they would their own children of a member of their own faith.

The problem today, as I see it, is that too many people can't see the differences in how they are treating other people.

So, governments is now having to step in, because Faiths have a bad track record of treating everyone fair. Hospitals have been a place of many discriminations concerning family members, and homosexual friendships, even though the patient had put in writing his will for his friend to handle matters, families have surcumvented the will of their sick family member, to secure properties, manage health care discissions, and prevent visitations by the patients partners. All in the so called best interest of their loved family member, when really all they wanted was control over what they percieved was their own interest. Many of these family members, so willing to suddenly help, were never willing to call, or invite them over for a meal before, are suddenly involved very much so, at an illness that may be terminal.

Its so narrow minded, in my view, to hate everyone not associated with yours, or mine, or our religious Organization, because they don't happen to understand all the things the way you understand them at this given moment. I know scriptures can tell us many ways to behave, but I think we need to examine the times. We don't stone children anymore, we don't kill anyone we find in certain wrong doings. We let our governments set the rules, and we strive to live our life in a way that pleases Jehovah.

Look at the Boyscout ordeal, here in the USA. Their was no record of any mishandlings of the children, such that the catholic church, and many other priests had been doing, but they took it on themselves, to band anyone who is a homosexual from being a troop leader, or even a boycout. They won, Yes, because of peoples stupidity of stereotyping, that anyone that is a homosexual is a pontenial pedifile. I bet they lost many good people, that really cared about those kids, and giving them the knowledge of how to survive in the outdoors, and be helpful citizens in our neighborhoods.

I know one thing, that I would rather see a child that was abandoned by their mother, who doesn't even know who the father is, who was smoking crack during the pregancy, given to a homosexula couple to raise, than raised in an institution, or by some of these most unscruplous couples running these huge homes for kids that are unwanted (sorry got a mental block) for money, so they can set at home all day, and not have to go to work, an be praised as doing such wonderful things fo rthese children, when in reality they are just in it for the money.

Id' rather see children being adopted ,and born to H-couples, than aborted so quickly as they are doing today. Then these stupid judges are giving back children to their original parents after the diaper stage is over, that discourages anyone from adopting.

I know of some very weathly H-couples that would grab at the chance to help these poor children, that will have a tough go at learning, need expensive medical care, and all that is needed to survive in todays world.

I can hear my mother saying, Oh, David, the end is coming soon, and Jehovah will take care of everything, don't worry about those kids.

Well, the WTBTS has been saying this for years, and never built one hospital to care for any of our needs.

I wonder if its now time, that people were to live free, and do as they please, without organized religions poking their noses into everyones personal business.

I'm glad that a person can, or soon will be able to choose, without discrimination, or less of it, which way they want to live.

Isn't that, exactly what Jehovah wants, is everyone to enjoy life, because it might be your very last breath on this earth, should he see you as being unworthy for his 1,000 year re-education, and equalization program.

Equal meaning everyone knowing full well, how they ought to behave under the sight of the heavens, and everyone behaving, and having that fully balanced body of perfection to get the job done right.

No more pain, no more death, no more satan and his influence on everyone, no more pressure to make a living, like how today the world forces us to do..

I know, I'm out on a limb here, but I see hatred in many people, because the world is going to allow so many more prevledges to people that we percieve as being unworthy of such preveleges.

I say let it go. Watch your own steps, and treat everyone with loving kindness, no matter who or what they may be doing, or how they may be living. We will all be judged different. Hate what is bad, YES, and love what is good, but don't hate those people that you know of through gossip, or what ever source, that are not behaving as wise, and as perfect as you.

Love
Dgibson

Ps. Personally, I'm glad the WTBTS never built a hospital org. because I think it might have been hard for those worldy people that worked there, not knowing where to sit in the cafeiteria, and such. lol

Kenneth

01-10-2007, 07:48 AM

I can't see this being a real problem for JWs in relation to marriage as one has to be a JW to get married in the KH in first place. The bible is quite clear on matters of sexual orientation thus if ones sexual orientation leads one towards wanting to bat for the other side so to speak then they'd be better off sitting the game out all together. The problem is homosexuality is not compatible with Christianity. There are multiplicities of sexual orientations such as homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual and people have become confused as to the right and wrongs of the matter. It's not our place to censure the practices of others, but at the same time we can't water down the word of God. The argument being presented must cut both ways, if those with an alternative sexual orientation wish to practice what they practice let them get on with it, however Christians must have their rights respected in the same way and be allowed to practice their faith for God will judge them both in relation to their works.

kenneth

Jeshurun

01-10-2007, 12:24 PM

I see it as a big problem for the churches. This would be a major infringement on the operations of Christendom by the government. This might be the first tug in a huge tug of war that ends up with Christendom in the fiery lake.

juffowup

01-10-2007, 03:10 PM

Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom.[/b]

I think it is interesting that of all these serious sins, the one least tolerated in kingdom halls is homosexuality. In fact, you can fairly openly practice idolatry, drunkenness, and greed and not even be censured.

Homosexuality is wrong, but I feel it is blown so far out of proportion that no gay person in his right mind would study the bible with a Witness, or wouldn't last long at the meetings. I know personally two non-practicing gay witnesses, and their life is hell. At least once a month the topic comes up in a talk, or worse, comments, and all you hear is how disgusting and vile it is. If a brother wants to give an example of how debased the world is, what comes up? How does that make these strong brothers feel?

Nobody ever seems to single out adultery or fornication or drunkenness out for being "vile", "debased", or "disgusting". Again, I'm not minimizing homosexuality, I'm questioning why it is seen as a bigger deal than the others sins that would keep you out of the kingdom?

One fellow pioneer once confided in me that he never called back on openly gay people he found at the door, even if they were receptive. "They'll never change." It boggled my mind. Yeah, they probably won't, not in great numbers, but you could say the same for smokers, alcoholics, people living out of the marriage arrangement, etc, etc. Jehovah is calling all sorts of persons, the acceptance of the message is between them and the Almighty.

I'm not saying anyone in this thread isn't being balanced, this is just my standard sermon on being Christ-like in our attitudes regarding sin. We must be balanced and keep our perspective. Stepping off the soap box now...

Kenneth

01-10-2007, 03:45 PM

I know personally two non-practicing gay witnesses, and their life is hell.[/b]

My answer to gays in the ministry is that yes homosexuals can be JWs providing they don't practice it as the bible is clear that marriage is between man and woman.

However, any sexual practice either of a heterosexual or homosexual nature outside of that constitutes fornication. As for their lives being hell that maybe the case as others may keep there distance, much depends on the type of congregation, but we have to keep in mind Paul's word "That's what some of you were". Personally I think they should be commended for their endurance in remaining chased.

The problem is that heterosexuality is seen as normal, where as homosexuality isn't, so the sin in the eyes of many is greater, even though both receive the same judgment in the end.

If I were of the gay fraternity I wouldn't admit it, I'd just tell them I wish to remain single and chased, life would be easier, after all having feelings for the same sex is not the sin where as the practice of it is.

Kenneth

barry

01-10-2007, 04:31 PM

I know an elder who used to to be gay but is now married and has a son. You can see some movements that indicate his past during talks, but as far as i know, he is respected by most because of the courage he has.
He can give wonderful talks.

Nambo

01-10-2007, 05:57 PM

Hi dGibson, I think similar issues arose last time I mentioned this act.
The point of the thread isnt to critise Homosexuals, though doubtless you are correct about cruel attitudes towards them, even in the truth, well I found bad attitude in the truth from people who had been brought up in the truth towards people who had come in, I digress.

The point of this thread is the danger towards the practising of Christianity, and personally I think laws like this are being used to help discredit and destroy Christianity.

Anyway, heres the Hansard of the Lords Debate if you want to read it.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=20...s=Bible#g179.10 (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2007-01-09a.179.8&s=Bible#g179.10)

Just at the beginning I found this:-

"In most circumstances, the new laws (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/glossary/?gl=38) will not be problematic. Homosexual people are entitled to be able to buy their groceries and have their bins emptied, just like everyone else—but the regulations go much further. They make it possible for homosexual activists to sue people who disagree with a homosexual lifestyle because of their religious beliefs. Bed and breakfast owners and Christian old people's homes will be sued for not giving a double bed to homosexual civil partners. Wedding photographers will be made to pay compensation for not taking bookings for civil partnership ceremonies. Christians in business could even be sued for sharing their faith with customers. Worst of all, they require religious organisations to choose between obedience to God and obedience to the state.The press is reporting that a first breach of the law could incur fines of between £500 and £5,000. Subsequent serious breaches could attract damages of up to £25,000. Regulation 3(3) sets out the new harassment law. The law is breached if someone can show that their dignity has been violated or that someone has created an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them. At its lowest, "harassment" can constitute an "offensive environment" for a homosexual. Noble Lords should note that Regulation 3(4) makes it clear that the court must have particular regard to the perception of the complainant. Furthermore, under Regulation 52, the burden of proof is reversed so that the person accused of harassment will have to prove their innocence.

The Government's Equality Bill proposed the creation of a harassment law in almost exactly the same terms as that, but on the ground of religion. In November 2005, this House voted to remove it from the Bill. It was considered too broad, too controversial and a threat to freedom of speech. The Government responded by asking the discrimination law review to look at it. That review has not yet reported. No solution has yet been put forward by the many experts involved in that review. Yet the <a href="http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Office"" target="_blank">Northern Ireland Office (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/glossary/?gl=53)</a> seems to think that it has the wisdom of Solomon and has slipped in the harassment provisions. It has done so despite indicating in its consultation paper that it was not minded to do so. I should say that the consultation itself was defective in that it did not give enough time for members of the public to respond and ignored most of the responses.

Furthermore, the Government claim that concerns about religious liberty are met by Regulation 16. It provides certain exemptions for religious organisations from a discrimination law. I underline this: what it does not do is protect religious organisations from the harassment law. That has major implications for religious liberty and freedom of speech. For example, if church membership were denied to a homosexual and the minister (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/glossary/?gl=35) explained in orthodox, theological terms the religious belief that justified the denial, it would be open to the person to bring a claim for harassment. He could complain that the explanation had the effect of,

"violating ... dignity; or creating an intimidating ... humiliating or offensive environment".

Regulation 16(4)(a) states:

"Nothing in these Regulations shall make it unlawful for a minister (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/glossary/?gl=35) to restrict participation in activities carried on in the performance of his functions".

That exemption covers the refusal by the minister (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/glossary/?gl=35). It does not cover any subsequent explanations. If he quotes from the Bible, he could be in trouble. What could be more fundamental than the right to decide who is a member of your church? Yet that is jeopardised by the regulations."

Lets look at a couple of points and how it might effect Jehovahs Witnessses " homosexual activists to sue people who disagree with thier homosexual life style because of thier religious beliefs" and "Christians in business could even be sued for sharing thier faith with customers"

That last line would equaly apply to Christians knocking on doors could be sued for SHARING THIER FAITH with householders"

How do you fancy knocking on the door of a Homosexual activist, (and there are a lot of them), and finding yourself arrested and subsequently sued for £25,000?
And read the bit about a Minister recieving a claim for harassment if church membership where denied?

Imagine the fun the compensation culture could have with this one?
Join the Jehovahs Witnesses, give up all your friends etc, then admit to being a practising homosexual, get disfellowshipped and then off to your lawyer to show him how utterly destroyed your life has become now that you belive God is going to destroy you.
A good lawyer could get you millions in the States on that.

dgibson

01-10-2007, 09:13 PM

Dear, Nambo

Thank you for your research, and comments. I'm sorry if I started a side issue. I guess juffowup, expressed what I felt, that there is an imbalance with religion concerning homosexuals, and I think Jeshurun is dead on, noting that this may be the vehicle used, to propel the religious organizations deep into the fiery lake.

love
Dgibson

juffowup

01-11-2007, 07:52 PM

The problem is that heterosexuality is seen as normal, where as homosexuality isn't, so the sin in the eyes of many is greater, even though both receive the same judgment in the end.[/b]

Bingo. I think you could go further and say, that people are more comfortable demonzing the sin of homosexuality because it is the one sin they are confident they will never fall victim to. Most of the others are part and parcel of the human condition, and most everyone has a fleshly brother or sister, mother or father, aunt or uncle that has been an alcoholic, or cheated on their spouse, or other wise had extra-marital affairs, or is sort of dishonest or kind of greedy.

Which is another point, you can be dishonest and greedy but not to the extent that people will call you on it, even though Jehovah might say otherwise. But it is hard to be "a little bit gay."

Excaliber

01-11-2007, 09:37 PM

I think it would be hard for a gay person to become a witness, because of how hard we come down on them.

I dont personaly know for sure....but I dont think all gay's are the same.
I think they all need help with there sexual inclinations individualy.
I dont think they are bad people at all.

But we all need to deaden our body members in regards to unclean practices.

Warren

01-17-2007, 04:36 PM

Is homosexuality a choice or are persons born that way? Whether or not to engage in homosexual acts is certainly a choice but what about one's sexual orientation in the first place? Is sexual orientation a choice or something imposed on us by biology? I don't recall choosing to be heterosexual.

Kenneth

01-17-2007, 06:01 PM

Londoner

01-17-2007, 06:33 PM

I'm going to take issue with this and the reason being, would a loving God ask us to be something we can't, I don't think so. There are are individuals whose sexual orientation sways in a certain directions and with a perverse society it easy for them to practice the sin. The bible however doesn't mince its words as Paul wrote in the book of Romans:

"That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error"[/b]

If one is born a homosexual then how can one be judged in all fairness? I'm no expert on the subject but I see problems with the idea that this is down to genetics, it appears to be more or less down to environment a case of nurture rather than nature.
Kenneth
[/b]

I agree, no one is born "homosexual", otherwise, why would God's word view it as unnatural, an "obomination"? Those genetic excuses are by those who do not want to change.

However, there are some who are born with an imbalance of female or male homones. A male could have too much "female" homones than normal, or a female could have too much "male" homones.

These ones are thought to be "gay", when attracted to the same sex. Many have addressed this imbalance of homones by getting a sex change in line with their dominate homones or feelings.

Londoner

Kenneth

01-17-2007, 06:47 PM

What would happen if a transsexual wanted to be a JW, just a thought?

kenneth

Jeshurun

01-17-2007, 08:43 PM

What would happen if a transsexual wanted to be a JW, just a thought?[/b]

I wish I could stop laughing long enough to answer that, but if we could fix her up with a pedophile, it might keep them both out of trouble.

Londoner, is it possible for a woman to become a man??? :o

Berean

01-17-2007, 08:58 PM

Is it scientifically proven that genes or hormones influence one's sexual orientation? Personally, I have a hard time believing that, and I think it is largely due to one's environment, i.e. the things one goes through in the path from childhood to adolescence. I think many homosexuals actually misinterpret their feelings. For instance, David and Jonathan were very close, so close in fact that I think if they were alive today and did not believe in God, they would be homosexuals. It's largely a problem with society as a whole - two men can't be close friends without being branded a homosexual, and therefore they either give up their close friendship, or become homosexuals, or, in a few cases, don't care about what other people say, but that's a very hard thing to do.

Nash

01-17-2007, 11:46 PM

I too agree that homosexuality isn't genetic; I think the environment plays a very large role.

Oh, and, uh, Jeshurun, get your mind out of the gutter! :185:

Nash

Nambo

01-18-2007, 02:15 AM

What would happen if a transsexual wanted to be a JW, just a thought?

kenneth[/b]

I related this on the old board when we had the same discussion.

When I was first in the truth, my Bible study conductor told me of, but kindly didnt point out at the assembly, a brother who had just come in the truth.

His mother had wanted a little girl but got a little boy instead.
So she brought him up as a little girl anyway, dressed him in girls clothes etc.
Of course the little boy grew up thinking he was alittle girl.
Later in life he managed to get rid of the spurious boy bits and became a transexual.

Then he got called on.

He was attracted to Jehovah to the extent that he knew he had to become a Man as he was indeed one in Jehovahs eyes.
So his "Bible study" lessons had to go as far as learning to walk and act like a man.

Can you imagine anybody having to do so much for Jehovah?

The at an assembly a couple of years later, I heard the born and bred Witness teenagers, pointing him out to each other, so that everybody knew his terrible sectret, extremely nice Spiritual people generally, but I think this was just to much for them to resist.
I invited them to put themselves in this Brothers unfortunate position and to imagine how they would feel to know every body was gossiping about his secret, they immediatly felt regret over thier actions.

A few years later however, I heard the Brother had gone out of the truth as he couldnt face everyone knowing about him and went back to being a woman.

Thats what its like for a transsexual in the Truth.

I hope Jehovah has mercy on this person and undoes the damage forced on his life from infancy, allowing him to feel normal happiness for ever in a Paradise Earth.

Regarding the other point on being born Homosexual.
I did once see a documentary maybe in the early 70s where an African Chief, told how homosexuality did not exist in his tribe, untill they learned it from the white man, and now 1 in 10 where homosexuals.

I think its part of the badness we learned when we eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
Certain gentler, more artistic males may be more surceptable to this inclination than the average man.

Apart from hope that marriage might end the suffering of the single male, I fail to see what the differance is between a hetrosexual single male and a homosexual single male in the Truth?

They both suffer mind gnoring sexual frustration and guilt that it is a mortal sin to even think about sex.

Kenneth

01-18-2007, 08:57 AM

I hope Jehovah has mercy on this person and undoes the damage forced on his life from infancy, allowing him to feel normal happiness for ever in a Paradise Earth.[/b]

That’s a very sad story. The point is JW are fundamentally conservative and a lot of them lack any real understanding of the wider issues people have to undertake. Also the preaching work as it stands appears unfair as it penalizes so many in term of survival into the new system.

However, what has been suggested by e-watchman and a powerful argument it is, that all humanity will have opportunity when the good news is preached in the end, as all humankind will have to take their stand either for Jehovah or Satan, transsexual or not.

Kenneth

Gandhi</span>

dgibson

01-18-2007, 10:18 AM

Nambo wrote:

"Regarding the other point on being born Homosexual.
I did once see a documentary maybe in the early 70s where an African Chief, told how homosexuality did not exist in his tribe, untill they learned it from the white man, and now 1 in 10 where homosexuals."

Kenneth wrote:

"If one is born a homosexual then how can one be judged in all fairness? I'm no expert on the subject but I see problems with the idea that this is down to genetics, it appears to be more or less down to environment a case of nurture rather than nature. "

Londoner wrote:

"However, there are some who are born with an imbalance of female or male homones. A male could have too much "female" homones than normal, or a female could have too much "male" homones."

Dear, friends

I think it is clear, that many reasons are the correct answers. Nambo's point, shows that there is a difference in raising children in a third world country, as opposed to a country where children are kepted playing alone in their own homes, while watching TV, or playing video games, when they could be closely associating around other families learning correctly how adults interact with each other. Maybe that's why wonderful Jehovah, has kept many of his people long ago, living is close tent communities, which makes Kenneth's point of nurture, rather than nature seem more correct. But, What do you say to those that are born with organs of both sexes? Londoner's point sounds to be more correct, highlighting a hormone imbalance.

Paul Wrote:

"That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error"

That is true, but lets remember his letters were mainly being written, and directed to those who would inherit God's kingdom, and be Jehovahs future heavenly son's. It was also to help us fight from being involved in a displeasing behavior under the sight of the heavens, that is promoted by satans, "everything goes style" system of things, and Jehovah also knew the damages to the human body, as the result of these practices. It would go against Jehovahs will, that everyone should enjoy a life, as best as they/you can, until Jehovah's time is reached, to dispatch his heavenly army of Angels to earth, to save everyone (the great crowd) putting up a fight against these, and many other human disfuctional behaviors.

So, with this in mind, Paul was writing correctly in the, Jehovah did give them up for any possible heavenly inheritence, but he did not abandon them complelely as imperfect human beings, subject to many flaws. Just like the many scriptures that point out, Jehovah does not want a minister of his truths to be a practicer of anything bad.

Even more now, with so many enviromental causes of malformation, and the speeding up, as it were by Jehovah himself after the flood of Noah, of a person becoming a balanced adult, (meaning we have so many hormonal changes ripping the body one way, then another between the ages of 8-20, this being acknowledged by many Doctors, and scientist), (when originally the preflood people had many more years of slow growth, evident by the hundreds of years they lived before dying)( so Jehovah holding our years to 120 max 70/80 speeded up many things concerning us, and he just takes snapshots of our lives for his records, of our behavior in certain circumstances, as our defense attorney/and Judge seeing everything, and nothing excaping his notice) Jehovah will act with love, and kindness towards many who give up their depraved practices at the end of the system of things. This must also include, a complete healing of the humane bodies of some sorts, to all individuals that accept him as their God, (rather than the one world government) and he will greatly enhance their ability to control themselves around others of the same sex, or even the opposite sex.

Think about this, if we are all to be changed back to being young, and beautiful again, without pain, and death, a healing and balancing must take place. Remember, Jesus healed people, before sending them away, and saying sin no more. They still, due to the enviroment around them sinned again, and died, because the ransome of Jesus innocent perfect human death, had not been paid yet, to bring all mankind back to perfection, and be tested as perfect humans like Adam, and Eve. Now that this ransome has been paid, the next baptism of real sorts, will and must include a reversal of our age, health, and damages caused by all the distructive forces around, and within us.

Now, Jehovah doesn't want anyone to be destroyed forever without a hope of a ressurrection, at the end of the system of things.

But he does want people to know, ( this is what the Good News is all about) that he has the power (to move mountains for those excersizing faith) to heal all disfuctional people, should they exercise faith in him, at the end of satans system of rule.That is the simplistic view, as being the word that should be given to the people living today, the great hope for mankind as laid out in the bible, for the great crowd of witnesses alive at the very end of this system of things.

We should be welcoming everyone to know about him, and his great and holy Name, and his future plans for humankind. No matter what their faults may be. This would include helping them see, the vast weight of what their future choices will be, when they are suddenly thrusted upon them by colasping governments, economies, and this 8th king.

It will probably be somewhat like the days of Hitler, all over the earth. A thrust to put people to work in bulding projects, while having a separating of the people, those who love God, and those who don't but love money and possesions. This is going to take place, because false, and true religion has ruined its way on the earth, in the eyes of the people. We have to help people see the difference between serving Jehovah God, (by putting up a fight in our flesh, to not mis-behave under the sight of heavens, to the best of our knowledge/wisdom/ability) and stop ourselves short from following these protesters, and false religion, or anti-religious/ anti-True God kingdom government people.

Stay away for the crowds, no matter how curious you are about what is goin on, and rely on Jehovah by praying to him, during the coming times of great trouble on the earth.

Love
Dgibson

Sketch

01-18-2007, 12:28 PM

Hate to burst any bubbles... but at least on the animal side of the topic, it looks like they can already prove its genetic... (Admin, I am sorry for the multiple links - though I do believe they fit both topic and function).

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=6421

"Researchers in the Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine have confirmed that a male sheep's preference for same-sex partners has biological underpinnings."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/02/sheep_research/

"Specifically, they cut open the offending sheeps' skulls, attached electonic sensors to their grey matter and monitored them while "varying the hormone levels, mainly by injecting hormones into the brain". They reported "considerable success" in getting previously gay rams to consider a bit of boy-on-girl.

The purpose behind these experiments is to "improve the productivity of herds" since "approximately one ram in 10 prefers to mount other rams rather than mate with ewes". The implications are far more sinister, opponents claim, since the acquired knowledge could in the future be used to "cure" human homosexuality, or may offer the prospect that "pregnant women could one day be offered a [hormone] treatment to reduce or eliminate the chance that their offspring will be homosexual".

I think the safest way to act is to just not bother with it. We should treat everyone the same REGARDLESS of what someone else says. Jesus told us to care for everyone - let HIM judge the consequences for what MAY or may NOT be genetic.... it might not be Jack's fault he's gay, just like it's not my fault that I'm black. either way, treating someone differently is un-christian...

Kenneth

01-18-2007, 01:06 PM

The problem is animals aren't under law we are, that's what separates us form them. The more I think about this the more complicated it gets. If one were to consider the amount of abused children who have to put up with not just abuse form relatives but when they are shipped of to boarding schools and other such places the individuals worldwide no doubt run into there millions. However, we live in a society where children are encourage to experiment to see what their sexual orientation is, the media and show biz is riddled with it along with idea of 'give it a go you won't know until you try it' , Satan's system is just sick. When I see gay marriages and that we have to accept it or be a bigot its just plain wrong. I treat homosexuals as I would my neighbour, but at the same time I'm not willing to water down the word of God for the sake of 'Political Correctness'. Jehovah has set the standard and that's where all need to take their stand regardless.

Kenneth

Sketch

01-18-2007, 01:54 PM

When I see gay marriages and that we have to accept it or be a bigot its just plain wrong.[/b]

Accept it for YOURSELF as wrong... you know, Klansman think that the bible says only white folks (WASPs) are worthy of being treated decently. No one said you HAD to accept homosexuality as being Okay or water down Jehovah's Word - but its not as if homosexuals don't KNOW that the bible says its wrong... its not a great EPIPHANY to them. You won't be telling them anything new.... But one thing the bible DOES say is to care for everyone, REGARDLESS... if a gay man (or black man) is your enemy, you still have an OBLIGATION to love them. Otherwise you judge them, when its not your place to judge.

Londoner

01-18-2007, 03:21 PM

<div class='quotemain'>What would happen if a transsexual wanted to be a JW, just a thought?

kenneth[/b]

I related this on the old board when we had the same discussion.

When I was first in the truth, my Bible study conductor told me of, but kindly didnt point out at the assembly, a brother who had just come in the truth.

His mother had wanted a little girl but got a little boy instead.
So she brought him up as a little girl anyway, dressed him in girls clothes etc.
Of course the little boy grew up thinking he was alittle girl.
Later in life he managed to get rid of the spurious boy bits and became a transexual.

Then he got called on.

He was attracted to Jehovah to the extent that he knew he had to become a Man as he was indeed one in Jehovahs eyes.
So his "Bible study" lessons had to go as far as learning to walk and act like a man.

Can you imagine anybody having to do so much for Jehovah?

The at an assembly a couple of years later, I heard the born and bred Witness teenagers, pointing him out to each other, so that everybody knew his terrible sectret, extremely nice Spiritual people generally, but I think this was just to much for them to resist.
I invited them to put themselves in this Brothers unfortunate position and to imagine how they would feel to know every body was gossiping about his secret, they immediatly felt regret over thier actions.

A few years later however, I heard the Brother had gone out of the truth as he couldnt face everyone knowing about him and went back to being a woman.

Thats what its like for a transsexual in the Truth.

I hope Jehovah has mercy on this person and undoes the damage forced on his life from infancy, allowing him to feel normal happiness for ever in a Paradise Earth.
[/b][/quote]

Hi Nambo

I heard a nice story told by my Presiding Overseer, when he was conducting my study in the early 90's. He said a brother had a sex change to a woman before he came into the truth, but converted back to a man before he could get baptised.

The PO couldn't keep a straight face, remarking about the things people put themselves through.

At least he did it, and is now a brother.

Kenneth

Yes, a woman can become a man, I have seen a documentary on it. I would not like to describe how they do it...... :icon_redface:

Londoner

Londoner

01-18-2007, 03:55 PM

I think the safest way to act is to just not bother with it. We should treat everyone the same REGARDLESS of what someone else says. Jesus told us to care for everyone - let HIM judge the consequences for what MAY or may NOT be genetic.... it might not be Jack's fault he's gay, just like it's not my fault that I'm black. either way, treating someone differently is un-christian...[/b]

Hi Sketch :)

Being black, is genetic and natural (as I am), but being homosexual is not natural, as the bible says, and is therefore not genetic. It is a Satanic teaching, similar to the way Satan has used the fossil records to convince many that life came about by evolution and that God did not create the universe.

Think about it. If it is genetic, that means it is natural, and something you cannot help doing. Sin is genetic. It is natural (though obviously bad), and undeniably, sin is something no human can ovoid.

Why would a God of justice, punish humans for willfully practicing homosexuality from entering the kingdom (heaven or earth) if the individual was doing something natural which he could not help?

If the world embraces this genetic lie, then it becomes apparent how the world will end up like Sodom and Gomorrah in regards to uncontrolled immorality, either straight or homosexual.

Londoner

Sketch

01-18-2007, 06:10 PM

Being black, is genetic and natural (as I am), but being homosexual is not natural, as the bible says, and is therefore not genetic...... Think about it. If it is genetic, that means it is natural, and something you cannot help doing. Sin is genetic. It is natural (though obviously bad), and undeniably, sin is something no human can ovoid.[/b]

then like sin, what is cancer? a lot of Cancers are genetic, a lot of other diseases are genetic, yet not natural. I am not trying to make excuses. I am only trying to get people to treat EVERYONE with respect and love. RESPECT a person's decisions, respect them for who/what they are. Is it MY fault that I have Cancer? (i don't). What about alcoholism? thats been proven to have genetic tendancies? So, If Sin is Natural, yet no man can avoid it, how do you KNOW homosexuality isn't the same - or some subset of it?? If we know sin is bad, yet we can't avoid it, are we still held liable for it?

It is a Satanic teaching, similar to the way Satan has used the fossil records to convince many that life came about by evolution and that God did not create the universe.[/b]

the funny thing about that is, you can't physically PROVE evolution false either, can you? no. You can only say that you have FAITH that that is not how it happened. How do we know that Jehovah didn't create us THROUGH evolution? I don't know. I don't see that it matters. Jehovah created us. Thats all the bible says on the matter. But i will not discount someone very existance because he/she believes in evolution. not that I care, but even so, its a discussion for a different thread....

Why would a God of justice, punish humans for willfully practicing homosexuality from entering the kingdom (heaven or earth) if the individual was doing something natural which he could not help?[/b]

You answered you're own question. Sin is natural - though bad. no one can avoid it. how do you know for a FACT that homosexuality isn't the same? you don't. Ask your question again, and insert the word "SIN" in place of "homosexuality" as homosexuality is a sin, right? ... yet none of us are free from all sin... does that mean we are free to do what we want, when we want? no.....

It seems a LOT of people here, and certainly a LOT of JWs in general - are almost overly freaked out by homosexuality. I admit, I am not the most comfortable with the idea, but they are STILL PEOPLE and you STILL HAVE to love them - REGARDLESS of any arguments you may have to the contrary. I don't care if Joe Schmo is gay. its not my concern. but his welfare IS - or should be... Thats my point. thats the ONLY point I've ever tried to make on this thread...

Warren

01-18-2007, 10:41 PM

Being black, is genetic and natural (as I am), but being homosexual is not natural, as the bible says, and is therefore not genetic. It is a Satanic teaching, similar to the way Satan has used the fossil records to convince many that life came about by evolution and that God did not create the universe.

Think about it. If it is genetic, that means it is natural, and something you cannot help doing. Sin is genetic. It is natural (though obviously bad), and undeniably, sin is something no human can ovoid.

Why would a God of justice, punish humans for willfully practicing homosexuality from entering the kingdom (heaven or earth) if the individual was doing something natural which he could not help?

If the world embraces this genetic lie, then it becomes apparent how the world will end up like Sodom and Gomorrah in regards to uncontrolled immorality, either straight or homosexual.[/b]

Where in the world did you come up with the idea that if something is natural that means you can't help doing it? Is sex between a man and a women outside of marriage natural? Yes. Does that mean we can't avoid engaging in fornication? Of course not.

You say sin is something no human can avoid. Yes, we can't avoid having sinful tendencies but we can avoid engaging in sinful acts like fornication. Likewise, a person may have homosexual tendencies but they can still avoid participating in homosexual acts.

You say that sin is genetic, something we can't avoid, and yet for some reason you think the sinful tendency toward homosexual behavior couldn't have anything to do with genetics. Seems illogical to me. The effects of sin have corrupted how our body and mind functions. There are hundreds of recognized genetic disorders affecting the human race. Why is it so hard to accept that there may be a genetic disorder affecting the sexual orientation of some individuals?

Nambo

01-19-2007, 01:06 AM

That is true, but lets remember his letters were mainly being written, and directed to those who would inherit God's kingdom, and be Jehovahs future heavenly son's. It was also to help us fight from being involved in a displeasing behavior under the sight of the heavens, that is promoted by satans, "everything goes style" system of things, and Jehovah also knew the damages to the human body, as the result of these practices. It would go against Jehovahs will, that everyone should enjoy a life, as best as they/you can, until Jehovah's time is reached, to dispatch his heavenly army of Angels to earth, to save everyone (the great crowd) putting up a fight against these, and many other human disfuctional behaviors.

So, with this in mind, Paul was writing correctly in the, Jehovah did give them up for any possible heavenly inheritence, but he did not abandon them complelely as imperfect human beings, subject to many flaws. Just like the many scriptures that point out, Jehovah does not want a minister of his truths to be a practicer of anything bad.

Even more now, with so many enviromental causes of malformation, and the speeding up, as it were by Jehovah himself after the flood of Noah, of a person becoming a balanced adult, (meaning we have so many hormonal changes ripping the body one way, then another between the ages of 8-20, this being acknowledged by many Doctors, and scientist), (when originally the preflood people had many more years of slow growth, evident by the hundreds of years they lived before dying)( so Jehovah holding our years to 120 max 70/80 speeded up many things concerning us, and he just takes snapshots of our lives for his records, of our behavior in certain circumstances, as our defense attorney/and Judge seeing everything, and nothing excaping his notice) Jehovah will act with love, and kindness towards many who give up their depraved practices at the end of the system of things. This must also include, a complete healing of the humane bodies of some sorts, to all individuals that accept him as their God, (rather than the one world government) and he will greatly enhance their ability to control themselves around others of the same sex, or even the opposite sex.

Now, Jehovah doesn't want anyone to be destroyed forever without a hope of a ressurrection, at the end of the system of things.

But he does want people to know, ( this is what the Good News is all about) that he has the power (to move mountains for those excersizing faith) to heal all disfuctional people, should they exercise faith in him, at the end of satans system of rule.That is the simplistic view, as being the word that should be given to the people living today, the great hope for mankind as laid out in the bible, for the great crowd of witnesses alive at the very end of this system of things.

Love
Dgibson[/b]

Dgibson, I Love you reasoning here and hope it is correct.
The society allways teach us that the great crowd have to be just as good as the Annointed yet for instance the annointed are said to be "virgins" but the great crowd are not.
Also looking at the requirements to be a priest in Leviticus indicated they had to have a degree of perfection and cleanliness not required in the Nation of Israel as a whole.

When you think that there have been many practising homosexuals through the ages who have died, are we to think Jehovah will not resurrect them because of being gay?
But if he does resurrect them the day after killing millions of other homosexuals at Armaggedon, does this seem to fit in with Jehovah being a God of Justice?

So surely people will not be destroyed for being Gay.
I would think as has been pointed out it will be for refusing to choise the side of Jehovahs Kingdom, so you might get a situation where a gay has the choice between a homosexual free-for-all paradise as offered by the Satanic New World Order, or deniening thier passions knowing that they will never experience such sensual delights again but preffering to choise Jehovah knowing he will "cure" them in the new system, the same as he will cure the resurrected homosexuals.

Something else to consider, "it is childs play for the demons to arouse in man the most vile passions", not my words so dont judge me on them but a thought that the sex drive is so powerfull, if the demons can direct it towards sin, it is a powerfull weapon for them.
Iam sure they can equaliy do it with animals so that the asme wonderfull scientists who teach us evolution is fact, can also teach us homosexuality is normal.

Sounds a bit fishy to me anyway, animals sex drive are generally triggered by factors such as the scemt an ovulating female will give out which arouses the passion of the male animal. A scent other males wouldnt have.
Humans on the other hand have a head full of sex which can arouse passions in whatever way our fantasys have been moulded.

dgibson

01-19-2007, 03:48 AM

Thanks Nambo

I like your reasoning, that Jehovah just might allow the 8th king to bring about a ViVa Las Vegas Style/type government, where anything goes, and is accepted, but those who are on Jehovahs side of things, will act in such a way, showing faith in him, knowing that they will be healed from all their wrong ways of thinking, and behaviors, and then will be able to develope the proper balanced view towards all things.

Yes, I think the teaching of "same/same", by the society, is for the protection wall against satans attacks on the 144,000. If you have a great crowd of people doing the same as you, around you, it makes for an easier more focused life.

That is why, I think, the fortress of the society is crumbling, because the wisdom of Jesus ransom covering all mankind, all the way back to Adam & Eve, in and out of the WTBTS is taking hold.

Even though we and all persons would benefit from living as a member of the WTBTS, (and I must point out here, that many people of other christian religions have also benefitted from living a strict life within their churches, as I do see many of them in this small town living well into their 80's and 90's having always a clear conscience that they were god fearing people, treating others fair, working hard all of their lives, while living a modest life free from heavy drinking, drug use, and stressful ways of the wicked) the WTBTS have ruined their way, just like the other christian religions still in existence, by not always giving the correct guiding principles, and through years of silence on important issues like Homosexuality, waffling back an forth on issues like whether King Solomon or anyone that died before Jesus ransom will be resurrrected, heavy suggestions of events coming that turned out as false biblical interpretations of scriptural prophecies like 1974, all the while giving everyone the impression that they are "Shepherds of Jehovahs sheep" to be obeyed as the leader of Jehovahs people, rather than following your our own reasoning ability, or listening to anyone elses, and now today in the courts of our government, giving argument, that they are not responsible for any of our behaviors.

Wonderful world we live in, so natural. I wonder why the food industry has such a hard time defining that word? Is it becaus ethe world we see, is not the way it was originally intended?

Love
Dgibson

Ps. Maybe the WTBTS was not the way it was intended to be? That would be an out for them, wouldn't it?

Sketch

01-19-2007, 06:06 PM

"Scientists in Israel have been working on a new drug, a designer steriod called STR which is said to turn homosexuals males into straight men. This designer steroid is given in a shot once a month to a homosexual male."

Strange that google news picked it up... I can't find anything else on it... so it may be something, may be nothing... Its on Leo Stoller's blog if you want to google it...

Jinnvisible

01-20-2007, 02:22 AM

I went to school with a boy who at twelve years of age thought that women had a penis. He wasn`t gay, he was attracted to girls yet he thought that they had a penis.

Nambo

01-21-2007, 06:23 PM

Kenneth

01-22-2007, 08:32 AM

This whole affair has Sodom and Gomorra written all over it. All it proves is just how close we are to the end of the system. As for ‘no religious exemptions whatsoever’ that just wont work as there are many religion today that are not prepared to water down Gods word to that degree. If one is a homosexual what is the point in getting married in church as the word of God is plain for all to see. If they wish to marry the simple answer is have a civil service and leave religion out of the equation. We do here of gay Christians and I for one would be interested to see just how they get around the bibles viewpoint on the matter. As for Blair and his babes they want to be all things to all people and so anything goes.

Kenneth

Jinnvisible

01-22-2007, 08:50 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=430352&in_page_id=1770)

Ruth Kelly discovers there will be no religious exemptions whatsoever.[/b]

You can define a celebate person as heterosexual. There is also such a thing as a celebate homosexual. A person who only feels attraction to people of the same sex and yet is not active sexualy. In this instance a homosexual is not a man who lays with men, is he ? He is a man who would like to lay with other men yet does not.

It could be a touchstone issue for destruction of religion under Babylon the great. A false posturing of equality in disregard to God`s laws.

The bible testifies there were certainly approved men who had formerly been active homosexuals in the first century Christian congregations. In this regard i don`t suppose it really matters what issue the 8th king uses as an excuse to persecute worship toward Jehovah God.

Jinnvisible

01-22-2007, 09:01 AM

If the world embraces this genetic lie, then it becomes apparent how the world will end up like Sodom and Gomorrah in regards to uncontrolled immorality, either straight or homosexual.

Londoner[/b]

I understand your thrust of thinking. Yet there were no genetic scientists in Sodom and Gomorrah were there ? I think you are engaging the misapprehension that if something is genetic then God put it there. The Genetics of humans was proberbly corrupted with the introduction of sin, hense Genetics - Genesis, same root word. People are weak in different ways. Different people are prone to different weaknesses. Whether that is reflected in the geneohm or not is niether here nor there in regard to God`s justice

The world is alot like Sodom and Gomorrah right now, proberbly worst with paedophilia.

juffowup

01-24-2007, 05:23 PM

Why would a God of justice, punish humans for willfully practicing homosexuality from entering the kingdom (heaven or earth) if the individual was doing something natural which he could not help?

If the world embraces this genetic lie, then it becomes apparent how the world will end up like Sodom and Gomorrah in regards to uncontrolled immorality, either straight or homosexual.[/b]

Why would a god of justice allow someone to be born with XXY chromosomes in the first place? This is an extreme case, but there are people who have no way to follow their god given instincts to pair off with a man or a woman and form a family unit.

The answer of course is because Jehovah didn't do this to them, this is a result of their corrupted bodies. The same reason we are born blind, deaf, dumb, crippled, and the same reason that over half off all pregnancies self-abort in the first place. Sin and imperfection.

So, can homosexuality be genetic? Sure. Since you can have a woman born with a penis I don't see it as a stretch that you can be a man and be wired with a female's idea of sexual attraction. Does that mean it is ok to practice homosexuality? No, of course not.

But that means we can show compassion to ones that are burdened with this, and Jesus may well show compassion along with the 144,000 in judging such ones. After all, we are commanded to read and meditate on the bible daily. In my hall, I was friends with a profoundly retarded man who never read the bible at all, but could understand the concept of Jehovah and reflect his qualities of love and mildness. There has got to be a curve we are all graded on, or nobody is going to make it, you know what I'm saying?

That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make homosexuality more wrong than any other sin. A person who slips up and gives in to homosexuality is in the same boat as I am when I look at a woman with lust in my heart and when I call my brother a dispicable fool, both of which happen far too often for me. Once is far too often.

Londoner

01-24-2007, 07:07 PM

Hi Warren,Juffowup,Jinnvisible :)

This is why I believe homosexuality is not genetic. It is a sin like any other sin:

1. Unlike genetic illnesses such as Sickle Cell, Brittle-bone disease, there have not been found a gene that causes "homosexuality". A few years ago, the science world made a claim that they had found the "gay" gene. It was a false alarm.

2. Remember, "genes" decide the colour of your eyes, hair, the shape of your nose, personality, etc, as well as negative influences such as disease. Homosexuality does not come into these brackets. It is not a disease or illness.
You will not find any family with occurences of generation after generation of homosexuals.
It is a sin like all the other sins which the bible says will bar one from everlasting life. Yes, hormones, environment, experiences, etc can influence one towards homosexuality, but it is not genetic.

Why do you want to make a special case for homosexuality by saying in effect: "It's all in the genes"? It is no more a genetic thing as womanising is not genetic. I used to be a bit of a womaniser before I came into the Truth. I did not blame it on the genes.

3. There was an African tribe I saw in a documentary I think in the 80s/90s who did not have a word for "homosexual". It did not exist among them. As that tribe is sinful and imperfect, why haven't the genetic "gay" gene surfaced?

The main reasons I think it is not genetic is God's word:

4. Deu 23:18 -

You must not bring the hire of a harlot or the price of a dog into the house of Jehovah your God for any vow, because they are something detestable to Jehovah your God, even both of them.

<span style="color:#000000">Why did Jehovah call the male prostitute a "dog"? I am not thinking about the obvious mechanics. Why did Jehovah use such a word and the emotion behind it for something that supposedly is "only in the genes"?

Rom 1:26,27 -

That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 (http://) and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

Again, under inspiration, why did Paul say it was "disgraceful" and "obscene"? Why such strong language for a mere genetic problem?
Again, it's "contrary to nature". It is not "natural". If it is in the genes, that makes it natural, or at least it would come "naturally". But that thinking is contrary to want the bible says.

The last word Paul uses is "error". This sums it all up for me. Homosexuals and lesbians (and immoral heterosexuals) are in "error". Sin is an error. We cannot blame it on the genes.

As I've said before, I believe this gene thing is a sublime thinking promoted by Satan to ease the world into accepting all kinds of serious sin, as merely being "in the genes". In other words, you cannot help it, it is "natural" and nothing to worry or fuss about. You don't need to change.

Londoner

</span>

dgibson

01-24-2007, 08:18 PM

juffowup, Wrote:

"So, can homosexuality be genetic? Sure. Since you can have a woman born with a penis I don't see it as a stretch that you can be a man and be wired with a female's idea of sexual attraction. Does that mean it is ok to practice homosexuality? No, of course not."

Let's see, how many centuries ago did the apostle Paul write to the Romans? Since then, I wonder just how far we have deteriorated in our gene structure? My point is also, that the reasoning you use here, gives the self-righteous snobs, the fuel to say, "well then, if they weren't born that way, then they can help from being who they are, so I don't feel a bit sorry for them, and in fact these ones go out of their way to make these peoples lives miserable, more then they would a person like there self, even one who is active in the military and kills, or has killed for a living,or the neighbors who don't properly care for their animals, or children, or the wife beater, etc.."

I think my point is, that achololism, drug addiction, and those who have tried to take their own lives through suicide, from not being able to reconsile the emotional outcast feeling dealt them from not being able to live, and love as they may wish at this time of confusion, (that is being caused by satan, and his co-workers), get more sympathy/empathy, than those who openly admit to having a problem, and wish only to be accepted as a friend, along with a friend, until matters can be reversed for all humankind.

In other words, Londoner

Your view of it as being only another sin, is correct, but the way religions and people within religions, have at this time treated all other sins, and then this one, is very different, even though you may have a perfectly balanced view yourself.

Many shun those who may have, or have had a same sex partners, but the funny alcoholic is always invited to the parties. The same with those who have ventured outside the natural sexual method between a man, and a woman to include oral sex, or food, toys etc. They are still held up by those within congregations, and churches as being good fine christian examples to follow, whether their problems are known or not known at the time.

No, living this way is not normal, or natural, but since satan interupted the natural path of humans at the begining, nothing will be 100% normal or natural until paradise is restored, and mankind is complelely healed. Our jobs as human animals, (I SAY IT THAT WAY, BECAUSE WE ARE STILL ANIMALS AS VIEWED FROM THE HEAVENS, JUST FANCY ANIMALS THAT HAVE A LEARNING AND REASONING ABILITY) within our BIO-SHERE/AQUARIUM enviroment, is to fight against embarrassing ourselves by our behavior under the sight of Jehovah God, (much like we don't want our pets to embarrass us when company comes to visit in our home),but also recognise that if we do, we have a loving Father who is willing to forgive us, immediately, when we approach him in prayer, and renew our fight against behaving incorrectly.

It is not the place for others around us, in our aquarium, to judge whether we have given up on our fight, just because we continue to live with those whom we love, and hope that will survive with us, the end of this un-natural system of things.

Love
dgibson

juffowup

01-24-2007, 08:38 PM

Hi Warren,Juffowup,Jinnvisible :)
1. Unlike genetic illnesses such as Sickle Cell, Brittle-bone disease, there have not been found a gene that causes "homosexuality". A few years ago, the science world made a claim that they had found the "gay" gene. It was a false alarm.[/b]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The human genome has just been decoded in the past five years. Less than 10% has been analyzed at this time. We have not yet found the gene or pathology that causes Alzheimers. Do you deny there is such a thing?

2. Remember, "genes" decide the colour of your eyes, hair, the shape of your nose, personality, etc, as well as negative influences such as disease. Homosexuality does not come into these brackets. It is not a disease or illness.
[/b]Why does it not fit in those brackets?

You will not find any family with occurences of generation after generation of homosexuals.
It is a sin like all the other sins which the bible says will bar one from everlasting life. Yes, hormones, environment, experiences, etc can influence one towards homosexuality, but it is not genetic.[/b]

Of course you won't find generations after generations of homosexuals. Have you even thought this through? In order to pass on their genes they would have to reproduce, and homosexuals cannot reproduce. That's like trying to disprove that mules are genetic by saying you don't see generations of mules.

Why do you want to make a special case for homosexuality by saying in effect: "It's all in the genes"? It is no more a genetic thing as womanising is not genetic. I used to be a bit of a womaniser before I came into the Truth. I did not blame it on the genes.[/b]Why do you think that a genetic component to something automatically means we are excusing something? It has largely been proven that some people are more susceptible to addictions, such as drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. Does that mean they aren't to blame when they sucumb to these tendancies? No. I think you think that I am condoning homosexuality by allowing for the fact that it may well be genetic. This is not the case.

3. There was an African tribe I saw in a documentary I think in the 80s/90s who did not have a word for "homosexual". It did not exist among them. As that tribe is sinful and imperfect, why haven't the genetic "gay" gene surfaced?[/b]

This is annecdotal evidence, which is the weakest type of evidence there is. In other words, how do you know there were no gays before the westerners came around? How does this documentary guy? For that matter, how does the tribesman? Did someone go around and take a scientific study? Is it possible that there were always some gays around that kept it secret because the tribesmen would beat them to death if they were found out? And when westerners came around and made the idea more acceptible, magically there were now openly gay tribesmen?

The main reasons I think it is not genetic is God's word:[/b]

This is the crux of your argument, because all the other evidence in the world would go out the window if it conflicts with God's word. So, you list several scriptures that state that homosexuality is not natural and is obscene. However, the scriptures also tell us that death is not natural. Childbirth pain is not natural. Disconnection with God is not natural. And yet here we are contending with it.

What of people born with XXY chromosonal sex structures? This is really, really not natural, yet here they are. Are they de facto abominations before God? How will he fix them in the new system? Do you know? Why is conceivable something like that could happen but something more subtle in the brain that happens to be invisible cannot be possible. Some people do not get depressed and some do. Some people, once depressed, do not need medication to recover, and some do. This is all in the brian, but do you deny it is biological?

As far as being obscene, that is a adjective describing many sins in the bible. It means lewd, foul, destable, or repulsive. Drunkeness is obscene. Speech can be obscene. Gluttony is obscene. Idol worship in its many forms is obscene. There is probably a genetic component that makes some people especially susceptible to any one of these, and resistant to other forms. I've never had a problem with drunkeness, at all, never tempted even. I have a devil of a time with others.

I am not condoning homosexuality, I am merely stating what I feel is obvious from my personal experience with those afflicted with it, and what I feel research points to: There is some biological component to it. If we want to differ on that, that's ok.

What I don't understand at ALL, and maybe what you can help me explain or set me straight, is why you think homosexuality is extra, extra wrong above and beyond any other sin? Or maybe I'm just reading you wrong.

Alex

01-24-2007, 08:45 PM

I am no expert on the science of sexual orientation, but there are situations which I would like to comment on, which I believe, not necessarily proves that same sex attraction is genetic, rather more of the deficiencies we as imperfect beings may have to fight against, and which may be prominent as a consequence of sin and imperfection plaguing our bodies, our thinking process and judgment.

There are elders and ministerial servants who are homosexual, a few of which have been brought up in 'theocratic' households, in an environment of love and security. Often such ones have not been exposed to any 'unnatural' sexual experiences, yet as they grew up, and particularly when they approached adolescence found themselves to be 'different' from others. In some cases, it could be a case of confused identity, (hence it is known some minors do experiment with sexual encounters in their quest to establish and develop their orientation - not recommended for servants of Jehovah), but same sex attraction has intensified during youth and beyond. One dilemma this raises is, what has caused these feelings to surface? How can it be explained that perhaps one in a 'theocratic' family is homosexual, whereas their siblings are heterosexual?

It becomes very easy for heterosexual individuals to freely comment on what is expected from those with same-sex attraction. The Bible comments on the moral code true Christians have to abide by and rightly so. Yet at the same time, from my discussions with homosexual brothers, in the majority of cases, it is not a chosen alternative life-style or a free choosing of their orientation.

Who in their right mind would want to experience the self-loathing, the feelings of inadequacy and insecurity, coupled with low self esteem and depression, which many of our homosexual brothers and sisters experience?

What even drives a few brothers to suicide, if the change to becoming heterosexual was easily attainable?

The truth of the matter is brothers and sisters with same-sex attraction have a hard time 'in the truth', even from heterosexual fellow believers, who are only too willing to pin point and condemn homosexuality publicly while tolerating heterosexual intimacy outside marriage without the same intense condemnation.

Personally, in my experience I have found homosexual brothers to be spiritual men, offering much understanding and compassion, because they have an inner fight which heterosexual individuals would find hard to understand or comprehend.

They loyally keep to the Bible's clear command 'to abstain from fornication', hence are not practicers of what is 'unnatural' or 'obscene'.

Our brothers and sisters experiencing the fight against same-sex attraction and are succeeding in not yielding to sin's law deserve more of our commendation, support and encouragement. They are a great example to us all.

Brotherly affection, Alex.

juffowup

01-24-2007, 09:17 PM

Personally, in my experience I have found homosexual brothers to be spiritual men, offering much understanding and compassion, because they have an inner fight which heterosexual individuals would find hard to understand or comprehend.

They loyally keep to the Bible's clear command 'to abstain from fornication', hence are not practicers of what is 'unnatural' or 'obscene'.

Our brothers and sisters experiencing the fight against same-sex attraction and are succeeding in not yielding to sin's law deserve more of our commendation, support and encouragement. They are a great example to us all.[/b]

I agree 1000%. Very well said.

dgibson

01-25-2007, 02:38 AM

Very well said, indeed.

I agree, that those living within the theocratic arrangement, and are not, nor have not ever been particpating in fornication, deserve our respect indeed.

I also believe, that those caught up in these matters, and find themselves unable to shut off these troubling problems, have just as much right to recieve the love, and support of the entire congregation, to help them overcome these behavior problems, rather than the strict unbalanced condemnation, and separation many have experienced from those who are lead to believe, they can change, or be changed just by reading ,and studying God's word, and praying to Jehovah.

I really think, this situation of how to properly treat homosexuals, is one of the very last situations needing a balanced reasoning afforded to it, by the leading men of the christian congregations.

I think, the reasoning from the scriptures, in this area, needs a complete over-hall, by everyone, includingthe FDS.

I add this, That it needs to be written, and studied by all the brothers and sisters within the congregation, so they can get their behaviors in order before the great tribulation, and gathering of the great crowd begins. How some respond, to who's collected at the end of the system of things, just may stumble some back into a world of everlasting distruction, no matter how good their works were with the confines of the WTBTS rules book, before the great tribulation starts.

Love
Dgibson

Jinnvisible

01-25-2007, 05:41 AM

Why do you want to make a special case for homosexuality by saying in effect: "It's all in the genes" ?[/b]

Active Homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God.

You are still attaching the idea that if something is genetic is must be something provided incorrupted by God. Stating that something is - or maybe connected to genetics by tendancy, is not the same thing as making an excuse for it.

The theologians at the WTBTS have identified Alexander the Great as a General whose actions fullfiled a small portion of Jehovah`s prophesy as recorded in the book of Ezekiel.

In a future paradise londoner what would you talk to Alexander about ?

The many great warriors and war tactics of ancient Israel or Gay Genetics ?

Active Homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God.

God does have eyes and sees to the heart of all men, this is not the same thing as having the knowledge that something is wrong and yet at the same time, being spiritualy blind, the pharasees were better aquainted with the law than most.

Active homosexual behaviour is wrong in God`s eyes.

I know it may be hard to accept however, being a Christian may mean loving men who have previously had gay sex.

Active Homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God.

Londoner

01-25-2007, 12:22 PM

Hi Juffowup and Jinnvisible

You seem to have misunderstood me. I do not think any of you are condoning homosexuality.

Juffowup: No, I do not think it is an extra wrong or bad sin. You have completely misread me. Dgibson (thank you my brother) has understood what I am saying. I believe homosexuality is just a sin like all the others the bible lists that bars unrepentant sinners from the kingdom. It is no worse than other forms of fornication.

My disagreement with both of you is whether it is genetic. I believe it is not, just like all the other forms of fornication is not genetic. Here's a more blunt explanation:

If someone verbally abuses another and calls someone all the names under the sun because of the colour of their skin; I am sure you would agree that would be cruel, prejudicial,wicked and bigotry.

That is because the colour of ones skin is genetic: the bearer has no control over it, he is born with it, and cannot do anything about it.

Consider this: Jehovah has called a male prostitute a "dog", and homos as practicing things disgraceful, unnatural and obscene.

If homosexuality is genetic, that means Jehovah is being cruel, prejudicial, wicked and a bigot. Being genetic means homos have no control over their urges, they are born with it, and can do nothing about it.

We know our loving and righteous Father is not like that. The only reasonable explanation Jehovah can use such language and not contradict His completely loving personality, is because homosexuality, like all other forms of fornication, is not genetic.

Do you understand the problem I have by saying it's "in the genes"? Going down this type of thinking is a very dangerous path I would not like to walk.

Londoner

Kenneth

01-25-2007, 12:27 PM

Has anyone read the front page of the Guardian today concerning the adoption laws for gays, lesbians and sexual orientation? I'm not going to say too much on the matter as we don't need God's laws to be spelt out. However, page p34 makes the point that the laws on race sex and disability all met resistance, yet proved their worth in encouraging progressive attitudes. And now the time is ripe for the new sexual orientation laws to do the same.

The views appear as if Christianity is discriminately and that the conscience of the church goer should be done away with. Some of the remarkes on page 35 are all one-sided in fact one person noted that "Nowhere in the bible does it state that lesbians and gay should be discriminated against". Even though the scriptures advocated equality and in the eyes of God all men are created equal but at the same time the bible tells us that morality must be at the forefront of it. I'm not sure which bible people are reading but I pretty sure it not the one I read and I read quite a few.

Kenneth
Whose off the buy a copy of the 'Forger's gazette' ( Daily mail)</span></span> :wacko:
</span></span>
</span>

Berean

01-25-2007, 06:12 PM

The views appear as if Christianity is discriminately and that the conscience of the church goer should be done away with. Some of the remarkes on page 35 are all one-sided in fact one person noted that "Nowhere in the bible does it state that lesbians and gay should be discriminated against". Even though the scriptures advocated equality and in the eyes of God all men are created equal but at the same time the bible tells us that morality must be at the forefront of it. I'm not sure which bible people are reading but I pretty sure it not the one I read and I read quite a few. </span></span></span></span></span>[/b]
This is precisely the problem. It has become so politically correct now to condone homosexual activity, that people are having a hard time speaking out against it (since the active homosexuals have formed a very vocal community), and now people are even forced to accept practicing homosexuals. Note that I have absolutely nothing against people with homosexual feelings who do not act upon those feelings, but I do have much against practicing homosexuals.

I think from this political correctness also comes the argument that homosexuality is genetic, and that it therefore can't be helped. I know that the people in this thread aren't saying that, but many people outside, once they start on that slippery slope, they go all the way down, and who knows where it will end? Is pedophilia genetic? What about bestiality? Drug abuse, alcoholism, gambling? It could all be traced back to some gene, but the trick is to fight your flesh, even though that's very hard. Jehovah knows this and takes this into consideration, but at the same time we must be careful not to lower ourselves to the standards of the world outside.

Steadfast

01-25-2007, 06:25 PM

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

This whole idea of homosexuality being 'genetic' is pure New World Order diatribe. Anyone who looks closely at the agenda realizes that their basic tenets are to pervert and destroy any truth stated in the Bible. From the inroads of gay agenda groups, I would say they are very successful and will continue to be so.

I support any brother who is stuggling with this problem, and my heart goes out to each and every one.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

dgibson

01-26-2007, 04:08 AM

Dear, friends

Here's the problem, as I think adjustments need to be made. There's no doubt that active practicing homosexuality is wrong, just like a practicing drunk, or a married couple practicing oral sex. The probem I have, is the protocol of what people in the spiritual lead of things expect those with these kinds of problems to do, if they have them.

The drunk, is he not to frequent bars or known resturants that serve, or encourage acoholic drinks? No, not always, sometimes its left up the the individual, as to whether they are strong enough to overcome this problem.

The marrried couple, are they to never see each other, and go their separate ways, never to see one another again? No, they are married, and in a marriage contract to love, and care for each other, for better or worse. It's up to them individually, whether to separate in order to get over this problem.

Now, what about the active homosexuals, or previously active, who want to learn a new behavior pleasing in the site of Jehovah, how are they instructed by the religious elders of most all christian religions? Most all advise them to immediately go their separate ways, and never, I repeat never speak, or be seen with , or absoulutely never touch one another again.

They are to begin their therapy alone, away from your very close friend, and deal with your emotions alone. Do they even have a clue as to the issues surrounding such advice? Do they realize the struggle it is to be alone in todays world?

Do they even care how many others who find out what type of person you were, then shun you, and overly protect themselves,and children from you, because of the stereotyping in the world? Like if he's a homosexual, he must be a pedifile.

This reasoning, I think at this time in our non-tent living, secluded style of living, is wrong.

I think this promotes these individuals to strike at another source for emotional comfort. It cause suicides, drinking problems etc.

I think these individuals, would better be served having their someone, close to them working together to help overcome these issues of bad behavior.

I think that it is also cruel for people to think, that giving up ones close friend, is easier than giving up ones legal spouse. It's the same feelings, and just as difficult.

Love
Dgibson

Kenneth

01-26-2007, 08:45 AM

When Blair came to power he wanted to be all things to all people. It looks like he got what he wanted. Question Time last night just summed it all up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/ques...ime/default.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/default.stm)

Kenneth
Who did go and buy a copy of the 'Forger's gazette'

Jinnvisible

01-26-2007, 05:15 PM

If homosexuality is genetic, that means Jehovah is being cruel, prejudicial, wicked and a bigot. Being genetic means homos have no control over their urges, they are born with it, and can do nothing about it.

Londoner[/b]

<div align="left">Romans 7:8-11 But sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, worked out in me covetousness of every sort, for apart from law sin was dead. In fact, I was once alive apart from law; but when the commandment arrived, sin came to life again, but I died. And the commandment which was to life, this I found to be to death. For sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, seduced me and killed me through it</div>
</span><div align="left">Romans 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the congregations of the Christ greet you.</div>
</span></span></span></span></span>

Sketch

01-26-2007, 10:11 PM

There's no doubt that active practicing homosexuality is wrong, just like a practicing drunk, or a married couple practicing oral sex.[/b]

HA!!! okay... I'll give you 100:1 odds that you can not find a scripture that supports all 3 of these things... 2 out of 3, yes. but the 3rd is a personal opinion.... another one of the laws of man...

dgibson

01-26-2007, 10:38 PM

QUOTE(dgibson @ Jan 25 2007, 11:08 PM) http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_images/1/post_snapback.gif (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1085)There's no doubt that active practicing homosexuality is wrong, just like a practicing drunk, or a married couple practicing oral sex.

HA!!! okay... I'll give you 100:1 odds that you can not find a scripture that supports all 3 of these things... 2 out of 3, yes. but the 3rd is a personal opinion.... another one of the laws of man...

Dear, Sketch

Looks like you have me there, it falls under "unnatural sexual behavior" and just like the word "homosexuality" is not used in the bible, the principle is drawn very clear by Pauls words.

Love
Dgibson

Dear, Jinnvisible

What a very loving and caring response. You are dead on, about not finding anyone within the congregations to admit, because they would be talked about endlessly in closenit car groups, or congregational cliques.

The WTBTS has a long way to go, to reach out to these kinds of people, and they are not even trying, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't think they really feel any responsibility to do so!

The FDS has set up such a cold hearted response to any of these individuals, or couples as being part of satans direct organization, and that they must be separated completely, and spiritually cleansed. When in the process, they forget that they are only human, and need companionship like all the rest of the congregation.

There are thousands, if not millions that would come and love to be a part of Jheovahs organization, (Not as ministers, but as people needing help) if it was free from these unkind, (you can help it), type individuals, that just happen to personally cringe with a distaste, at the very thought of what they are all about, and go about poking fun, and whispering hurtful jokes about them.

Very Thankful for your kind words.

Dgibson

Sketch

01-26-2007, 11:52 PM

Looks like you have me there, it falls under "unnatural sexual behavior" and just like the word "homosexuality" is not used in the bible, the principle is drawn very clear by Pauls words.[/b]

In YOUR opinion. Please show me where and how paul said ANYTHING about oral sex? True, the term "homosexuality" is not in the bible, but the phrase "men who lie with men" is - don't play stupid.

The bible is clear on what married couples can do by themselves.... and THAT is anything they WANT - as long as its between those two, and ONLY those two. so PLEASE, stick to the facts. YOU may not have it in your marriage, but thats YOUR opinion... and thats totally fine, but don't insert your opinion as fact.

Jinnvisible

01-27-2007, 12:21 AM

Gone Fishing

dgibson

01-27-2007, 07:29 AM

<div class='quotemain'>Looks like you have me there, it falls under "unnatural sexual behavior" and just like the word "homosexuality" is not used in the bible, the principle is drawn very clear by Pauls words.[/b]

In YOUR opinion. Please show me where and how paul said ANYTHING about oral sex? True, the term "homosexuality" is not in the bible, but the phrase "men who lie with men" is - don't play stupid.

The bible is clear on what married couples can do by themselves.... and THAT is anything they WANT - as long as its between those two, and ONLY those two. so PLEASE, stick to the facts. YOU may not have it in your marriage, but thats YOUR opinion... and thats totally fine, but don't insert your opinion as fact.
[/b][/quote]

Dear, sketch

Rom 1:26,27 -

That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 (http:///) and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

Let's start here, with "contary to nature". Do you know of any other animals, in the animal kingdom, that do it? That have oral sex with each other? Do monkeys, or apes engage in such activities? The fact is, NO they don't.

How, about smoking, do you find any other animals, rolling and smoking a cigarette, or cigars? No, they can be taught by humans to a degree to do so, but the answer is still no they do not know how or what they are doing. Just because mankind was endowed with intellegence and the ability to invent such things, and much time has passed, since Paul wrote his letters to the Romans to invent such ideas. Do you think that they are exempt from being call, or clasified as being "contrary to nature"?

Good reasoning, would say NO!

Let's look at "loose conduct", how would you fit consider oral sex, as an action outside the realms of "loose conduct". Just because you have a marriage license before all of mankind, and under the sight of Jehovah, does that give you the right to practice loose conduct between you and your marriage partner, in secret? No, it doesn't.

Now, I hope I don't get in trouble with this example, but I will try to make a point.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
<div align="left">What! do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were</div>
Now, let's realize that the above letter is being directed to the earthly 144,000 son's that Jehovah is about to adopt into the heavens, because it is a well known fact that the christian greek scriptures were written mainly to benefit them. While the old test of the bible was to give us great crowd a glimpse of Jehovahs dealings with mankind, and his huge righteous personallity.

Now then, let's look at the above scripture, from the angle, that it is also for our benefit as the potenial great crowd to be gathered just before Jehovah destroys the stubborn leftover unrighteous people who wish not to be a part of any heavenly directed system, and sign off as there is no God but the eight king.

So below, I have not attempted to water down the message of Paul, but have attempted to adapt it in such a way, to what it may have looked like, If the apostle Paul knew, that we would be at this point in time, and was still alive today to see how it would apply to the great crowd at the end of the system of things. It is only an attempt to help clarify, not change God's word, but if you do not see my point, then I will remove it.

<div align="left"> </div><div align="left">What! do you not know, that the persons who voluntarily, remain full of pride, stubborn, that keep on misbehaving willingly, those who want to remain unrighteous people, while destroying the earth for personal gain, will not benefit from God's new kingdom government? Do not be misled. No unrepentant, voluntarily, practicing fornicators, nor stubborn idolaters, nor those choosing to remain adulterers, nor men allowing themselves to be kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who want to continue to lie with men, nor unrepentant thieves, nor unrepentant greedy persons, nor continously unrepentant drunkards not wanting help, nor revilers, nor those who keep practicing extortion will enter into God's new system of things on earth. And yet that is what some of you will have been, before true help arrives from the heavens. </div><div align="left"></div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Your prayers, and how you feel inside after getting involved with such things on a daily basis, is what Jehovah will be watching, and considering along with your entire life, and history of upbringing from a child. Only he knows the core of a persons true feelings, and he knows if you have the ability to correct yourself if all the stumbling blocks satan has before us, are removed, and you are complelely healed pyshically, and mentally, educated correctly, and given another chance to behave correctly as a perfect human being during the thousand years. Jehovah will pread our case as a defense attorney with all records available to him. He will be on our side, not wanting any to be destroyed forever.</div><div align="left"></div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Love</div><div align="left">Dgibson</div>

<div align="left">

</div>

Eli's Foe

01-27-2007, 07:46 AM

Let's start here, with "contary to nature". Do you know of any other animals, in the animal kingdom, that do it? That have oral sex with each other? Do monkeys, or apes engage in such activities? The fact is, NO they don't.

Dear all,

we seem to be straying into the land of make-believe here. Does that mean kissing is out, because my cat doesn't do it? Lets be sensible, and keep to the facts.

Whatever the underlying reasons for homosexuality, practicers will not enter the Kingdom of God, any more than adulterers etc.

Anything more is just personal conjecture or preference.

EF

Nambo

01-27-2007, 11:08 AM

Let's start here, with "contary to nature". Do you know of any other animals, in the animal kingdom, that do it? That have oral sex with each other? Do monkeys, or apes engage in such activities? The fact is, NO they don't.

How, about smoking, do you find any other animals, rolling and smoking a cigarette, or cigars? No, they can be taught by humans to a degree to do so, but the answer is still no they do not know how or what they are doing. Just because mankind was endowed with intellegence and the ability to invent such things, and much time has passed, since Paul wrote his letters to the Romans to invent such ideas. Do you think that they are exempt from being call, or clasified as being "contrary to nature"?

Good reasoning, would say NO!

<div align="left"><div align="left">Love</div><div align="left">Dgibson</div><div align="left">[/b][/quote]</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">We had a dog that was forever pleasing herself in this way, though I admit she allways looked a bit sheepish and guilty afterwards.</div><div align="left">Once on the field service, I saw two young bulls in what is known as a 69</div><div align="left">In fact I would say that in the abscence of hands and fingers, this is theonly form of foreplay that animals do use.</div><div align="left">So from your logic are we to assume that all forms of foreplay between humans is "contary to nature"?, maybe a good excuse if you are in a rush but I dont think your wife will be too pleased.</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Maybe using a woman contary to nature would more likely mean something like an*l </div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">The main reason I would think oral might be wrong is that it wouldnt be so good to praise Jehovahs Holy name out of a sex organ.</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Anyway, Ive yet to see an animal ride a bike so guess I will have to give up cycling as well. </div><div align="left">

</div>

Kenneth

01-27-2007, 11:30 AM

The main difference between animal and man is one has sex for pleasure the other out of instinct. We are moral beings animals are not, we were made in Gods image, and animals were not. The bible doesn't say much on the on the subject, but the subject makes me feel uncomfortable.

Kenneth

Sketch

01-27-2007, 11:58 AM

I've started another thread in reply to the oral sex issue as I have already hi-jacked this one too much...

My point on the matter of homosexuality is pretty clear i think... i don't know if in fact it IS genetic - i think it may be - but either way, I am bound by the Word of Jehovah and the actions of his son, Jesus to treat EVERYone as my brother, with love and compassion. To look DOWN on ANYONE is to put yourself ABOVE them, and we all know thats not right.

dgibson

01-27-2007, 04:47 PM

Let's start here, with "contary to nature". Do you know of any other animals, in the animal kingdom, that do it? That have oral sex with each other? Do monkeys, or apes engage in such activities? The fact is, NO they don't.

Dear all,

we seem to be straying into the land of make-believe here. Does that mean kissing is out, because my cat doesn't do it? Lets be sensible, and keep to the facts.

Whatever the underlying reasons for homosexuality, practicers will not enter the Kingdom of God, any more than adulterers etc.

Anything more is just personal conjecture or preference.

EF[/b]

Let's not kid ourselves, animals help clean each other and show affection like moves, but the reality is they act on instinct, and smells. Its only us humans that have the ability to develope inventions that can be used for the good of mankinds existence, while outside paradise, or can develope things that can be used or done, that embarrass ourselves in front our creator.

Nambo

01-30-2007, 10:08 AM

Dorcas

01-30-2007, 10:19 PM

This article just talks about Tony Bilderberg Blair giving no exemption to the Catholic church over the adoption issue http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6311097.stm

But when I saw Tony speaking on the news he said "there will be no exemption for any religious reason", or words to that effect.[/b]

Greetings to all sensual friends (I am one),
Through life, we all are driven by "urges". I won't list them because we all have a sense of what they are. The question is, which ones may we act on and which will produce negative effects. Which ones does Jehovah deny us.

Strait fornication (disease, unwanted prognancies, most often no one to help raise the child, etc.)
Oral sex (disease - the wastes from our bodies pass through these organs.
Masterbation (are we really deadening our bodies to fleshly things? If we marry, will our mate "pleasure us as well as we can ourselves?)

Not every activity is spelled out for us in the scriptures; but remember that fornicators and adulterers were stoned to death. Something to think about --
There are many MARRIED COUPLES who, for one reason or another, cannot enjoy normal relations. Does that give them the right to "pleasure themselves" (new worldly term)? Are they justified in going outside of the marriage?
Paul said that all things may be legal, but not all things are beneficial. Jehovah is the one teaching us to benefit ourselves.
Are some of the friends homosexual physically? Perhaps...but do they have to act on those impulses? I think Pauls words about "men who lie with men" not inheriting the kingdom should be reason enough to remain celebate. Think of your restraint as something you must sacrifice indefinitely in order to serve our dear Heavenly Father in a way that pleases Him!
My 2 cents from Dorcas
PS Extra blessings to those who make this sacrifice.

Nambo

01-31-2007, 09:20 AM

Not every activity is spelled out for us in the scriptures; but remember that fornicators and adulterers were stoned to death.[/b]

Can anybody remind me of the scriptures that give stoning as the punishment for the above please?.
For I certainly thought this to be the case, but have just read in Numbers for the test of Jealousy if a husband suspected his wife of commiting adultery, she had to drink the bitter water before Jehovah and if she where innocent, it did her no harm, but if she had commited adultery, and also lied about it, her stomach would pemanantly swell and her "thigh" would fall away.
This would certainly have exposed her as an adulteress, yet never is she then said to require stoning to death in this account? Her punishment was the fact all Israel would know she was an adulteress and presumably no more sex for her if her "thigh" had fallen away.

Also noted, there was no punishment proscribed for the man she committed adultery with.
In fact at th ene of the account it says as for the man, he will be pardoned his error, or will have committed no error.
Now Iam not sure if "the man" refers to the partner in adultery, or the Husband who suspected his wife?

Berean

01-31-2007, 05:52 PM

Can anybody remind me of the scriptures that give stoning as the punishment for the above please?.[/b]

"In case a man is found lying down with a woman owned by an owner, both of them must then die together, the man lying down with the woman and the woman. So you must clear away what is bad out of Israel.

"In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman. So you must clear away what is evil from your midst. - Deuteronomy 22:22-24

Nambo

01-31-2007, 07:59 PM

<div class='quotemain'>Can anybody remind me of the scriptures that give stoning as the punishment for the above please?.[/b]

"In case a man is found lying down with a woman owned by an owner, both of them must then die together, the man lying down with the woman and the woman. So you must clear away what is bad out of Israel.

"In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman. So you must clear away what is evil from your midst. - Deuteronomy 22:22-24
[/b][/quote]

Thanks Berean, so now there remains the question as to why it this instance, stoning was the punishment, but when Jehovahs bitter water prounounced a wife guilty of adultery, she wasnt stoned?

Also, I note that both the Deuteronomy involves a woman that was owned by another, are there any scriptures that prescribe stoning for the pure act of fornication itself rather than for the stealing of the most emotional precious of another mans property, ie his wife indicating wither the real sin is fornicating or stealing another mans wife.

Berean

01-31-2007, 08:46 PM

Well, just before that text I mentioned, in Deuteronomy 22:13-21, the case of a woman who isn't a virgin before marriage is mentioned, but it apparently refers to having sexual relationships with another man before marrying:

"In case a man takes a wife and actually has relations with her and has come to hate her, and he has charged her with notorious deeds and brought forth a bad name upon her and has said, 'This is the woman I have taken, and I proceeded to go near her, and I did not find evidence of virginity in her'; the father of the girl and her mother must also take and bring forth the evidence of the girl's virginity to the older men of the city at the gate of it; and the girl's father must say to the older men, 'I gave my daughter to this man as a wife, and he went hating her. And here he is charging her with notorious deeds, saying: "I have found your daughter does not have evidence of virginity." Now this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they must spread out the mantle before the older men of the city. And the older men of that city must take the man and discipline him. And they must fine him a hundred silver shekels and give them to the girl's father, because he brought forth a bad name upon a virgin of Israel; and she will continue to be his wife. He will not be allowed to divorce her all his days.

"If, though, this thing has proved to be the truth, evidence of virginity was not found in the girl, they must also bring the girl out to the entrance of her father's house, and the men of her city must pelt her with stones, and she must die, because she has committed a disgraceful folly in Israel by committing prostitution in the house of her father. So you must clear away what is bad from your midst.

I must admit I do not know why Numbers speaks of bitter water and not of stoning. The only reason I can think of is that in Numbers it is explicitly mentioned that Jehovah gave that law to Moses, while in Deuteronomy it isn't explicitly mentioned as far as I know, which could imply that some parts of Deuteronomy were laws that Moses himself gave to Israel, thus the expression 'Law of Moses'. I could be totally wrong here though, so perhaps someone else would like to shine his or her light on the matter as well.