Question For Watchman

[littleone]

Hi Watchman,

I've been reading some of your essays and find many things very interesting.

According to the society, do they not teach that they are God's people because of the events that happened in 1914-1918 period?

They claim that Jesus arrived in kingdom power in 1914. At, or around this time they claim that judgment was passed upon God's house (the house according to them at that time was all of Christianity, with its various churches). They claim that at, or around this time, is when Babylon The Great fell, and they were called out of her in obedience to the words found in Revelation 18:4 which says: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins..." They also claim that Jehovah found favor only in the small group of Bible Students at that time. This is apparently when Jehovah chose them as "his people", setting them aside from the rest of Christendom. This is basically when they claim that they found favor in Jehovah's eyes, and became a special possesion to him, while the rest of Christendom was cast off in his eyes.

Does this sound correct? Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood anything they claim.

However, in your own teachings, you point out that these things are NOT so. You point out that 1914 had no scriptural significance. However, you still claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's chosen people, set apart from the rest of Christendom. You claim they are God's house; his earthly representation of the heavenly organization.

How can this be so if these various events really did not take place in 1914? When was it that they became God's chosen people, as set apart from the rest of Christendom (those claiming to be God's chosen people), if it wasn't during the 1914-18 period?

What I am asking is "What date did Jehovah's Witnesses become Jehovah's chosen people, set apart from all other religious groups?"

I know this sounds like a harsh question, and it almost sounds disloyal for asking it... and I mean no disrespect by asking it. However, if what you are saying is true concerning the 1914-1918 time period, then are you not also yourself disproving their claims of being Jehovah's chosen people at that time?

Thanks,
littleone

***please don't take this question the wrong way. I'm not trying to be a smart ass in asking it. But I do think it merits some consideration.***

[Gabriel]

I know this sounds like a harsh question, and it almost sounds disloyal for asking it... and I mean no disrespect by asking it. However, if what you are saying is true concerning the 1914-1918 time period, then are you not also yourself disproving their claims of being Jehovah's chosen people at that time?

Thanks,
littleone

***please don't take this question the wrong way. I'm not trying to be a smart ass in asking it. But I do think it merits some consideration.***[/b]

Littleone Never feel like youre being disloyal for asking anything. You're being disloyal to yourself and jehovah if you dont ask. Remember this is our life we're talking about. I think you've asked a very valid question. Robert is pretty good with giving explanations that makes really good sence. Dont worry..he'll get back at ya soon enough. Till then Do some reaserch and pray to Jehovah about it. You'll get the answer you need. Besides....where do you think Robert gets his answers from Lol

[DoubtingThomas]

Very good question littleone. Let me take a stab at this one. Your question was: "What date did Jehovah's Witnesses become Jehovah's chosen people, set apart from all other religious groups?" Isn't it true that God has always had certain individuals as well as organized groups who have endeavered to serve him on earth after the apostles finished their earthly course. Around the turn of the last century C.T. Russell's group had distinguished themselves as being such a group. It is apparent to nearly all of us here at this board that the group C.T. Russell started (which later became known as Jehovah's Witnesses) is the only religious organization today upholding and practicing the truth's from the Bible. What other organization could it be? Does there have to be a specific date they (modern day JW's) became approved by God as His chosen people? I think they are in a long line of faithful servants serving God ever since the first century. So the date would be Pentecost of 33 C.E. The various groups teaching accurate truths from God's Word over the centuries have gone by different names, and that group today who are accurately representing God go by the name of Jehovah's Witnesses. They (we) are living in the last days when God's judgements are finally due upon His people. So I don't believe there is a date for the modern group of Christians known as Jehovah's Witnesses to have suddenly received God's approval as His chosen. It has been a continuous line of Christians since Christ established the Christian church. Excellent question, and I do look forward to Watchmans response.

[DoubtingThomas]

The following information from the Wikipedia article on Restorationism adds a little more to my previous post:

RestorationismMain article: Restorationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism)See also: Dispensationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism) and Restoration Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement) Restorationism refers to various unaffiliated movements that considered contemporary Christianity, in all its forms, to be a deviation from the true, original Christianity, which these groups then attempted to "Reconstruct," often using the Book of Acts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles) as a "guidebook" or sorts. Restorationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism) developed out of the Second Great Awakening and is historically connected to the Protestant Reformation,^{[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#_note-75)} but differs in that Restorationists do not usually describe themselves as "reforming" a Christian Church continuously existing from the time of Jesus, but as restoring the Church that they believe was lost at some point. The name Restoration is also used to describe the Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) (Mormons) and the Jehovah's Witness Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses).

[watchman]

Hi Little One

You don't have to apologize for asking questions. That's what a discussion board is for. Actually, I recently wrote a review of a book called Captives of a Concept (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/captives-of-a-concept.html)that focuses on the question of how Jehovah's Witnesses can be the true faith in spite of the fact that the Society's 1914 teaching is a fraud. Basically, what makes Jehovah's Witnesses the true faith is the presence of spirit-anointed Christians -- as Russell and many of the original Bible Students were.

[littleone]

Hi Little One

You don't have to apologize for asking questions. That's what a discussion board is for. Actually, I recently wrote a review of a book called Captives of a Concept (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/captives-of-a-concept.html)that focuses on the question of how Jehovah's Witnesses can be the true faith in spite of the fact that the Society's 1914 teaching is a fraud. Basically, what makes Jehovah's Witnesses the true faith is the presence of spirit-anointed Christians -- as Russell and many of the original Bible Students were.[/b]Thank you for your responses. Watchman, I have read your review of a book called "captives of a concept". It has many interesting arguments. Thankyou.

It is very interesting to note what Charles Russell and those early Bible Students actually believed in the late 1800's. I don't have the various articles handy right now, but I can supply them if need be. But one of the beliefs that they had was that all of Christendom at that time was indeed part of the household of God. Although they believe that the various sects and religions of that time had apostasized from Jehovah, nevertheless they did believe that the giant house of Christendom constituted what Jesus spoke about in Matthew chapter 13, where he gives the illustrations of the kingdom of the heavens being like a mustard seed; leaven that was hidden by a woman in 3 jars; the wheat and the weeds; etc.

They actually believed that they were still under a spiritual Babylonish captivity. They believed that Jehovah's anointed were "scattered about" throughout all the various sects of Christendom, which they deemed as "the nominal church". They also constituted the unfaithful majority of that "nominal church" as "Babylon the Great". They believed that their "gathering together" was in obedience to the Lord's word found in Revelation 18:4 which states: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues."

They stated that the "true church", had no earthly organization. Neither did they claim that those of the anointed were God's earthly representation of the "heavenly organization". Instead, they believed that they were "ambassadors for Christ", or "ambassadors for that heavenly organization"... believing that they were members of the spiritual temple spoken about in Ephesians 2:19-22. They believed that the "spiritual temple" was a heavenly one, not earthly at all... and that anyone making an image of a heavenly thing was indeed creating an idol and commiting idolatry.

Now if Babylon the Great hasn't fallen yet, as claimed by the society, then does it not mean that God's people still find themselves within it? If that is so, then we must pray that the "mystery" of her name is revealed to us. That said, scripturally, those Jews who were in Babylon were themselves captives, were they not?

In one article in 1881, CT Russel mentioned about the original apostasy of the church. He believed that apparently this apostasy took place in the 5th century. I beg to differ with this assumption, but that is neither here nor there. But he did say some interesting things about it... lets take a look:


Failing to see that the great work of the Church for the world is future, the Church in the fifth century, seeking to accomplish that work of the next age in the present age, saw that organization was essential to that work, and organized under antichrist a system or "clergy" which is neither more nor less than a counterfeit of the true Church of overcomers, the glorious Royal Priesthood, the Kingdom of God under the whole heaven, which Christ is to organize shortly and place in control. From this serious error, the Reformation movement of the sixteenth century only partially freed a few. Seeing the statements of Scripture, that the Church was to rule and judge the world, and losing sight of the "ages to come," all predictions were crowded into the present age, and the Scriptures were wrested so as to make the prophecies of Christ's Millennial reign applicable to their popes who represented him as his vice-gerents. And the promises made to the overcoming saints, they applied to the "clergy" who thus constituted a hierarchy claiming to be Christ's spiritual kingdom, the Royal Priesthood. Carrying out further their self-deception, they thereafter recognized only this hierarchy or clergy as THE CHURCH, and the common believers, who in the Apostles' days constituted the church, were styled the laity, or children of the church. It should be remembered, too, that about the same time, the church, having mistaken its proper present mission, viz.: the selecting of the church, the body of Christ, to be in due time joint-heirs with him, and having gotten the idea that they were now, in this age, enjoying the reign, strove to do the new, kingdom work, viz.: to convert the world and rule it. They therefore baptized the heathen professors of Christianity, who really knew nothing of Christ, and endeavored to teach them morality, which they made impressive upon them by forms, ceremonies and rituals. And to keep all power in their own hands, as well as because these savages were unprepared to do so, the right or authority to teach was claimed as the exclusive prerogative of the church. And so say we, that the church and its members alone may teach; only we object to their definition of true church--"the clergy" --and claim the Apostolic definition--all consecrated believers in and followers of Christ. All such are brethren; all such are God's ambassadors; all such are ministers (servants) of Christ, head and body, each according to his talents. As yet there are no "children of the church," and there will be none until the church is exalted and glorified. The Church complete --head and body--is to be the "Everlasting Father," or life-giver, and all the restored millions will be the "children of the resurrection."

From these erroneous ideas regarding the church, Protestants escaped in part only. They still organize, and still recognize the terms "clergy" and "laity," and vest the power and privileges of ministry chiefly in the former; and many of them still hold the Episcopal or hierarchal form of church rulership; and though under this the "clergy" rules as a superior and independent order, yet generally the "laity" is recognized as being part of the church, and not merely "children of the church." They have reformed this much at least over the great apostasy, of which the Church of Rome is the only full representative to-day.

The mistake started with the supposition that when the church obtained influence with the Roman Empire, it was being "set up" in power by God, to rule the world. It was really set up by Satan, as clearly shown in the book of Revelations, to deceive the nations, and if possible the very elect. How well his plan succeeded, let all judge.[/b]Does many of these things sound familiar? Watchman, you yourself have basically said many of the same things, though in other words. However, you were not referring to the Roman Catholic Church, rather your words were directed somewhere else, placed in a different context.


I guess what I'm really getting at is when did Jehovah tear down the "heavenly house" to build a "physical one"? Did he not instead tear down that which was physical (Jerusalem temple), to build up that which was spiritual (temple of "the Christ")?

When did Jehovah give the anointed an "earthly house", or "earthly organization"? Certainly it was not when CT Russell and associates were on earth. They themselves claimed they belonged to "NO EARTHLY ORGANIZATION". They likened themselves as "alien residents" in the flesh. Their citizenship was that of a "heavenly" nature. They claimed they were "members" of the heavenly organization... not that they themselves constituted an earthly organization. They also claimed that they were captive within these various earthly organizations ("nominal church") before they came out of them. They also claimed that those things that were born of the flesh ("earthly organizations") were designed to battle against those of the "heavenly nature", namely the anointed.

Lets consider the anointed amongst Jehovahs Witnesses today:

Are the various anointed scattered about throughout the organization finding freedom within that organization? No. As a matter of fact, lets take the example of Watchman himself. He claims to be one of Christ's brothers. However, does he have freedom to teach within that organization? No. Rather, instead, that organization battled with him and put him to death in a spiritual sense by disfellowshipping him. If he finds any freedom to teach, it is only within the freedom in connection with Jesus Christ... not with the organization. What about the other anointed throughout the organization. Do they have freedom to teach? No. The only ones that have freedom to teach are those in the Governing Body. Everyone else ought to shut up and fall in line with the Governing Body. So do these ones find freedom within the society? No. Rather, they find themselves as captives within it.

But hey... was not the original church which became the Roman Catholic church established by the anointed? It most certainly was. But what happened? Was not alot of the various sects that split off from the apostate church themselves set up by the anointed? Even the society admits that many of the religious movements started in the middle ages probably had anointed amongst them. CT Russell certainly believed this to be the case. He considered many of the original reformists as true anointed. But what happened to the various movements that they themselves were apart of? Did they not also go into darkness?

In every one of these movements that started off, corrupt man finally became in charge of it. These various sects and denominations ended up setting a man or men in charge of it. Soon these men seat themselves in Christ's seat and begin to rule the people. Even CT Russel acknowledges this where he states:


Contrast this church organization with what now affects to be a continuance of the same; the various denominational organizations, each of which binds its members to a mental union on the basis of some creed or dogma of its own (many of them anything but (love) and each having its own laws.

These laws emanate from their heads or rulers and law-givers; so it is clearly seen that these present day churches have and recognize as heads, or directing, ruling powers over them in conferences, councils, synods and presbyteries, interpret and enforce the "traditions of the elders," which "make void the Word of God." These take the place of the true head of the church Jesus and the true teacher and guide into all truth, the Holy Spirit.[/b]Is this not what Jehovah's Witnesses have become?

I am really perplexed in spirit. Starting about 7 years ago or so I prayed to God that he would teach me the way of the truth. I wanted to serve him, and him alone. The next day a man, one of Jehovah's Witnesses knocks on my door. He was a friend that I knew from when I was a child, as my mother was a Jehovahs witness that was disfellowshipped for adultery. Therefore, I was not brought up as a Jehovahs witness, as my mom took me at a young age from my father, and I grew up outside of the organization. He was alot older than me, about 20 years older. We began studying the "brown book" (I forget its name)... but it was the typical book that Jehovahs witnesses studied with new bible studies at the time.

During our studies, he would skip various sections... then finally he told me that we would no longer be studying that book. Instead, he started to teach me out of the bible... but recommended that I come to the meetings. So I did. During those meetings this brother would put up his hand and give comments like: "Jehovah's house has been broken into". He would give explanations to scriptures in public that were contrary to some of the teachings at the time. He claimed that he was one of the anointed. Anyways, I was very perplexed at the time about what was going on. We continued studying, and I would go over to his place and help him out with his business that he did for a living. During those times, we would have many conversations concerning things in the bible. To tell you the truth, at the time I myself wondered if this man had lost his mind, or if he was infact an apostate as the society's literature would say. Because he used to speak out publically at the meetings against the corruption in the society. He mentioned that they've rejected Jesus Christ as their head... ect. Actually, many of the same things that I myself are writing in various posts are things that he had alluded to in public.

Finally, during this business trip that I took with him, we started to talk about the body and blood of Christ. Immediately my mind became open in a new way of understanding. I began to actually understand new scriptures in a new light. Shortly afterward, it became apparent that I was also teaching him things, as much as he was teaching me things concerning Christ. Therefore, it became apparent to us both that I should become baptised.

To make a long story short, I later on moved away about a thousand miles away from this brother, and no longer went to meetings at the kingdom hall. However, my learning in Christ did not stop. I found that most of the things I began to discern were not taught by the Watchtower society. However, I stumbled upon some of CT Russell's writings, and actually bear witness to some of the things he said in them... that are no longer taught in the society today. I was joyful, because I finally found some things that bore witness to the things that I was taught from scripture. Although I personally do not agree with everything he wrote, and especially some of the later things he wrote, I did find things that were based on the things that I was learning myself.

Finally, one day I browse the internet for something that resembles what I believe. Lo and behold, I find this site! I read a couple of Watchman's essays, and literally yelled out: "Holy shit!" Then I send off watchman an email, and say to him a few things, then he refers me to this site. Immediately I sign up to this site, and here I am.

Now, alot of the things that I've read here I agree with. But not all things. The most troubling thing I read here is that although most here believe that the watchtower society is itself an idol. You still say that it constitutes Jehovah's people. I find this a contradictory belief.

I will be the first to admit that I am a babe in Christ. I do not consider myself to be very smart, nor very wise in Christ. I have many things that I am trying to cleanse myself of. I'm trying to quit smoking, and get my life in order. In many ways, my life is not that of a Christian at all... but I am trying to clean up my act. This I will openly confess. But I have come to discern what I myself am. Also, I believe that Jesus Christ is with me, and will continue with me if I follow his commandments.

So where does this leave me? Right here. I agree with many things that are said here, but my spirit groans within me for an explanation of how something that is spoken of as being an idol can still be that which constitutes God's earthly organization. The scriptures, nor the spirit indicates this to me. Perhaps I myself am captive to a concept... but that concept would by necessity to me be the concept of Christ. For I find no freedom in anything else but him. I know that I would be killed (marked as one to disassociate with) for teaching what I believe in a kingdom hall. Yet, where does that leave me? Troubled.

[DoubtingThomas]

I agree with much of what you wrote in the post above Littleone. And I believe I understand your frustration at what appears to be a paradox. That is the fact that the WT constitutes an idol for many of of Jehovah's Witnesses, yet we still consider it to be the House of God at this time. But I believe the essays of Watchman explain this situation to have been foretold in the scriptures, and not only will the Watctower be judged as an organized body or religion (House of God) that has fallen short, but all of us will be judged individually who have fallen in to the trap of idolizing the organization, if we have indeed fallen in to that trap, which some of us have. It sounds like you have avoided this, and that is to be commended. Perhaps you already are worshipping Jehovah in an approved state without becoming formally baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses? There have been approved worshipers of God (both annointed and otherwise) thru out the centuries, long before the modern day organization founded by Russell appeared on the scene. But I believe you are more the exception than the rule. I believe that most individuals who have accurate knowledge of God and are worshipping Him in an acceptable way have learned to do so thru the teachings of the Watchtower.

[Nambo]

I too think you speack a lot of sense Littleone, (apart from the bit about the Catholic Church, I think that was more a takeover).

I too also stuggle with my views of the Jehovahs Witnesses.

True, it was the Jehovahs Witnesses who took the trouble to teach me about God, and true I experienced the Holy Spirit, but was this through being in the Jehovahs Witneses, or finding God?, ie, whatever avenue I had found God by, as long as it WAS God I found, and had the right heart condition, would it matter what religion it was?

The Jehovahs Witnesses surely must be doing a lot more than any other religion to bring truth to people, but does this mean they alone own Jehovah?, or as Jesus impled, it matters not who preaches the Christ.

Iam not so sure I can go along with the notion that the JWs are Gods current chosen people, in the way the Hebrews where, if that was the case I would have expected that Jehovah would have given us more guidance. The society felt it was being guided by Jehovah in its early days through its spiritualistic channeling, but we can see from the failed prophecies that this wasnt the direct link to Jehovah they thought at the time.

And maybe as Watchman says, its Gods organisation because it has annointed of God in it, but could this be putting the cart before the horse?, in that these Spiritual people find the purest message in this above other religions, but would Gods religion then throw them out for doing the very work they are assigned to do?, or do they carry on doing thier assigned work in the way Watchman, and the Brother who taught you, are doing independant of the Watchtower society which might have fullfilled a purpose only in as much as the very stones themselves would have cried out?

Possibly there are genuine Spritual people every where and the more "truth" a particular religion has, the more of these genuine ones it will attact, but I think when Jehovah sends his Two Witnesses, people from all religions will see where God really is and will say "we will go with you people because we have heard God is with you people" and grab the skirt of said Jew, God will gather people together from every tribe and nation and tongue, maybe this will include every religion, like I said, maybe there will be most from the Jehovahs Witnesess in proportion to how much purer and appealing its worship is to right-hearted ones, but that this in itself doesnt mean Jehovah started and runs this particular religion.

[Jeshurun]

For me it's really difficult to understand how people could ever accept what Christendom spews out. I couldn't have been more than 6 years old when I started asking questions that they couldn't even begin to answer. All I saw was the glitz and gold and gothic buildings that dominate neighborhoods, and even before I started studying I doubted any of it was coming from God. God would have answers to simple questions about life and why we're here. The only thing I learned from the Catholic Church was Adam, Eve, Noah, and evolution. I tried other churches and learned how to make a real fancy cross out of ice cream sticks, and other such spiritual things.

Jehovah's people won't accept the world's makeshift paradigms when so many questions go unanswered. They know better, instinctively. That's how they end up being Jehovah's Witnesses. They were the only people who could answer your basic questions from God's Word. And they made house calls. How convenient! The magazines were cheap. Nobody else was doing that. Nobody else was meeting in plain old modest buildings and really teaching you something for two hours on a Sunday morning. And there was no collection plate. That, to me, was what made it Jehovah's organization.

If only they could have just left it at that. :deal:

Its now that we have the gift of the internet that we can finally have release from bondage and spiritual freedom in association.

Look at the Tower now---> :hot:

[watchman]

It is very interesting to note what Charles Russell and those early Bible Students actually believed in the late 1800's. I don't have the various articles handy right now, but I can supply them if need be. But one of the beliefs that they had was that all of Christendom at that time was indeed part of the household of God. Although they believe that the various sects and religions of that time had apostasized from Jehovah, nevertheless they did believe that the giant house of Christendom constituted what Jesus spoke about in Matthew chapter 13, where he gives the illustrations of the kingdom of the heavens being like a mustard seed; leaven that was hidden by a woman in 3 jars; the wheat and the weeds; etc.[/b]

Hi Littleone

That is still what the Watchtower teaches, in so far as the weeds of Christ's illustration supposedly represent the nominal Christians of Christendom.


They actually believed that they were still under a spiritual Babylonish captivity. They believed that Jehovah's anointed were "scattered about" throughout all the various sects of Christendom, which they deemed as "the nominal church". They also constituted the unfaithful majority of that "nominal church" as "Babylon the Great". They believed that their "gathering together" was in obedience to the Lord's word found in Revelation 18:4 which states: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues."[/b]

Well, Russell then, as well as the Watchtower now, got a little ahead of themselves with the idea that God has already issued the command to get out of her. In a general way, though, we can say that he has, as even Paul quoted from Isaiah when exhorting the Corinthians to get out of Babylon back then. But, it is undeniable that the WTS back then did serve as a rallying point around which individuals from the churches gathered. Interestingly, persons that became associated with the International Bible Students who had already been baptized in one of the churches were not required to get re-baptized. After 1919, though, that changed.


They stated that the "true church", had no earthly organization. Neither did they claim that those of the anointed were God's earthly representation of the "heavenly organization". Instead, they believed that they were "ambassadors for Christ", or "ambassadors for that heavenly organization"... believing that they were members of the spiritual temple spoken about in Ephesians 2:19-22. They believed that the "spiritual temple" was a heavenly one, not earthly at all... and that anyone making an image of a heavenly thing was indeed creating an idol and commiting idolatry.[/b]

That is true, and yet the early Christians grouped into congregations and had a visible governing body, for lack of a better term, called apostles.


Now if Babylon the Great hasn't fallen yet, as claimed by the society, then does it not mean that God's people still find themselves within it? If that is so, then we must pray that the "mystery" of her name is revealed to us. That said, scripturally, those Jews who were in Babylon were themselves captives, were they not?[/b]

The Watchtower teaches that Babylon the Great fell back in 1919, in that it no longer has the power to impose restraints on God's true servants. However, e-watchman espouses the view that the captivity to Babylon the Great has not taken place yet. It is a future event and will come about when the system collapses only to give rise to the 8th king along with his harlot consort. It will be a form of discipline from Jehovah.


I guess what I'm really getting at is when did Jehovah tear down the "heavenly house" to build a "physical one"? Did he not instead tear down that which was physical (Jerusalem temple), to build up that which was spiritual (temple of "the Christ")?[/b]

The spiritual temple of God is still in existence. However, it has always had a corrupt element attached to it. For example, in Paul's day he wrote that in a large house there are vessels for various purposes, some honorable and some lacking honor. One of the primary purposes for the coming of Christ is the cleansing of God's spiritual temple of all lawless persons and stumbling blocks associated with it.


When did Jehovah give the anointed an "earthly house", or "earthly organization"? Certainly it was not when CT Russell and associates were on earth. They themselves claimed they belonged to "NO EARTHLY ORGANIZATION". They likened themselves as "alien residents" in the flesh. Their citizenship was that of a "heavenly" nature. They claimed they were "members" of the heavenly organization... not that they themselves constituted an earthly organization. They also claimed that they were captive within these various earthly organizations ("nominal church") before they came out of them. They also claimed that those things that were born of the flesh ("earthly organizations") were designed to battle against those of the "heavenly nature", namely the anointed.[/b]

Yet, the very institution of the Watchtower Society, of which Russell was one of the founders, constituted an earthly organization, did it not? So, in sense C.T. Russell was contradicting himself.


Lets consider the anointed amongst Jehovahs Witnesses today:

Are the various anointed scattered about throughout the organization finding freedom within that organization? No. As a matter of fact, lets take the example of Watchman himself. He claims to be one of Christ's brothers. However, does he have freedom to teach within that organization? No. Rather, instead, that organization battled with him and put him to death in a spiritual sense by disfellowshipping him. If he finds any freedom to teach, it is only within the freedom in connection with Jesus Christ... not with the organization. What about the other anointed throughout the organization. Do they have freedom to teach? No. The only ones that have freedom to teach are those in the Governing Body. Everyone else ought to shut up and fall in line with the Governing Body. So do these ones find freedom within the society? No. Rather, they find themselves as captives within it.[/b]

The Governing Body are the final arbiters of what is true and what is not. They have the responsibility to oversee what is taught within the congregations. The apostles served a similar function in the 1st century. Recall, please, that Paul put several men out of the organization because they taught things that were unture. For example, there were a couple of characters called Hymaneaus and Philetus that were teaching that the resurrection had already begun and they were overturning the faith of some. So, that puts things in perspective. Did first century Christians have the freedom to teach whatever they wanted? Oviously not. That is not to say that the WTS has not become oppressive in many respects. But, all the prophecies allow for that and point to the remedy.


But hey... was not the original church which became the Roman Catholic church established by the anointed? It most certainly was. But what happened? Was not alot of the various sects that split off from the apostate church themselves set up by the anointed? Even the society admits that many of the religious movements started in the middle ages probably had anointed amongst them. CT Russell certainly believed this to be the case. He considered many of the original reformists as true anointed. But what happened to the various movements that they themselves were apart of? Did they not also go into darkness?[/b]

That's the point. Even the orginal Christian congregation became corrupt. Did that mean that it wasn't God's organization? Of course not.



Now, alot of the things that I've read here I agree with. But not all things. The most troubling thing I read here is that although most here believe that the watchtower society is itself an idol. You still say that it constitutes Jehovah's people. I find this a contradictory belief.[/b]

The first century congregation was menaced by idolotry too. Recall that Paul rebuked the Corinthians because some were saying that they belonged to Paul and others to Apollos etc. The fact is, humans and an inborn tendency to worship persons and things. Even John tried to worship an angel during the revelation. And, of course, Satan nutures the tendency toward idolotry. In the case of Jehovah's Witnesses Satan has slyly promoted the Society and "faithful and discreet slave" into an idol. But, again, the prophecies foretold this situation and how Jehovah intend to remedy the situation.

[littleone]

Hi once again Watchman,


Well, Russell then, as well as the Watchtower now, got a little ahead of themselves with the idea that God has already issued the command to get out of her. In a general way, though, we can say that he has, as even Paul quoted from Isaiah when exhorting the Corinthians to get out of Babylon back then. But, it is undeniable that the WTS back then did serve as a rallying point around which individuals from the churches gathered. Interestingly, persons that became associated with the International Bible Students who had already been baptized in one of the churches were not required to get re-baptized. After 1919, though, that changed.[/b]
I will not deny that the Bible Students did serve as a rallying point around which individuals from various churches gathered. At the time though, the WTBTS was merely a printing corporation, that was being used as a tool to pass along the written word. Since technology was lacking in those days, they did not have computers as we do, so the best way to send along communications was with the printed word. That said, in those early days the WTBTS was given little or no praise into itself. It was not considered in itself God's organization. Rather, the ones gathering together, as "Bible Students" considered themselves to be sincere bible students gathering in the name of Jesus Christ. Neither did these ones claim that they were solely God's organization... for they still recognized the anointed within the "nominal church", and were calling them out to join them.

Interesting to note also is that CT Russell died 3 years earlier before the change of doctrine concerning "baptisms". That occured when there was a new sheriff in town, by the name of "Judge" JF Rutherford.


That is true, and yet the early Christians grouped into congregations and had a visible governing body, for lack of a better term, called apostles.[/b]There is no doubt that there are those within Jehovah's arrangement that have authority. This there can be no argument for. There are many places within scripture that overseers are appointed; provisions for elders and ministerial servants, etc. This I in no way contend with. The apostles did have authority. However, the arrangement set in place in those days did not resemble that which is set up now.

The society at one time, and probably to this day believe that the apostle Paul's apostleship was THROUGH the governing body of that day. This can be no further from the truth. Galatians 1:1 clearly points out that his apostleship was NOT through any other man/men. So by this, even the other 12 original apostles were kept on due notice that it was Jesus Christ who was in charge.... not they themselves. Rather they were not "governors", but instead they were "stewards" of the good news.

The term "governing body" does rightly describe those who are in charge of the society today. They govern. They send down law, and anyone who does not fall in line with it is cast away. They LORD it over their fellow brothers. This is something that the apostles never did. However, these ones have been doing it from the start.

Another difference is that the apostles recognized Jesus Christ's authority over other Christians as well. Take for example Agabus the prophet. Does the governing body of today recognize anyone else except themselves? No. Even the anointed scattered throughout the congregations are taken as of little or no account. Watchman, what about you? Did they recognize you? No. Point is, these ones never did recognize any other authority except for their own.


The Watchtower teaches that Babylon the Great fell back in 1919, in that it no longer has the power to impose restraints on God's true servants. However, e-watchman espouses the view that the captivity to Babylon the Great has not taken place yet. It is a future event and will come about when the system collapses only to give rise to the 8th king along with his harlot consort. It will be a form of discipline from Jehovah.[/b]Point taken. Perhaps we'll discuss this some other time.


The spiritual temple of God is still in existence. However, it has always had a corrupt element attached to it. For example, in Paul's day he wrote that in a large house there are vessels for various purposes, some honorable and some lacking honor. One of the primary purposes for the coming of Christ is the cleansing of God's spiritual temple of all lawless persons and stumbling blocks associated with it.[/b]Ah yes... it surely does have a corrupt element attached to it. This goes back to Jesus' parable about the wheat and the weeds does it not? However, those weeds, even though they're associated with that temple, and call themselves a part of that temple, are not really members are they? No they're not. They could be likened to what Paul says in Galatians 2:4 when he says "false brothers". Yet, there are also those who were members of that temple and who later turn apostate. I guess in this regard, we both agree. And we both agree that when Jesus arrives, he's going to discard the unfaithful ones who consider themselves apart of that temple arrangement.


Yet, the very institution of the Watchtower Society, of which Russell was one of the founders, constituted an earthly organization, did it not? So, in sense C.T. Russell was contradicting himself[/b]In this regard, I absolutely disagree. He incorporated a company that was USED by the anointed to publish. It is much like you use your website to proclaim the things you believe. Are you yourself foolish enough to say that your website is Jehovah's organization? I certainly hope not.

Put yourself in their shoes back then. They had no internet, nor had our modern day technology. What was available? The printed page. So this is what they used to distribute their thoughts. Now, the majority of the articles that were written were by CT Russell himself. But in CT Russell's day, there were also many other contributors to the Watch Tower... each of them with their own name at the end of each article.

CT Russell no doubt acted as editor in Chief. Likewise, today you yourself act as editor in Chief of the things you post on your www.e-watchman.com website. I have no idea if others have written articles or essays on your site, but likewise, it is almost the same thing as in CT Russell's day. Likewise, they did not consider their "brotherhood" to be solely God's organization either, as they still recognized the "nominal church", even though they themselves were the first to admit that the "nominal church" was apostate. Likewise, is it not the same thing at this site? You have many that come to it, but do you dare declare that only these ones solely constitute God's organization? Most of the people that come to this site are either current or former Jehovah's witnesses. Most here believe that the WTBTS is in a state of apostasy. They believe that there are righteous and unrighteous within the Jehovah Witness arrangement. Likewise, those in CT Russell's day were either current or former members of the "nominal church". They also believed that there were righteous and unrighteous within the "nominal church" at that day. Instead of gathering in cyberspace, they met in person in various congregations.

Now there is one major difference though between the group in CT Russell's day and the ones gathered on this site. The thing is that CT Russell and those of his day did not point back at the "nominal church" and say it was Jehovah's Organization. Rather, they said that they themselves were members of Jehovah's Organization that was in the heavens... not on the earth. The whole idea of an earthly organization only came about after CT Russell's death.

Likewise, let me ask you this question Watchman: Are you yourself apart of Jehovah's earthly organization known as the Jehovah's Witnesses? I can answer this question for you: NO YOU ARE NOT! Why? Because they threw you out did they not? Did they not announce in your local congregation that "Robert King is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses"? They surely did. So what provision of salvation does that leave you??? Are you not tossed to the wind... cast off as one already worthy of death? Are you not called an "apostate", in which there can be no repentance from... one meaning you're already worthy of the second death? Are you not already considered as one who was better off never learning the truth in the first place? Then what provision does that leave you for salvation?

Ahh! But you beg to differ do you not? Does not your provision lie not with that which is earthly, but that which is heavenly? Will you not yourself argue that you are still apart of Jehovah's organization? And then point out that you're apart of his "heavenly arrangement", although cast away and rejected by the "earthly arrangement"? If so, then do you not recognize that his arrangement is no part of this world? It is a heavenly one, and not an earthly one. This is why the apostle Paul told those in Hebrews 12:18 - 24:

For YOU have not approached that which can be felt and which has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a tempest, 19 and the blare of a trumpet and the voice of words; on hearing which voice the people implored that no word should be added to them. 20 For the command was not bearable to them: “And if a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so fearsome that Moses said: “I am fearful and trembling.” 22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood].

Notice that the apostle Paul did not tell them that "they approached the 'new Jerusalem', the Christian congregation, here now on earth." Rather he told them of the heavenly arrangement... and that was the one they were to strive for.

Yes, no doubt the brothers at that time constituted an earthly brotherhood. However, those who were faithful of that "brotherhood" claimed to be apart of a heavenly organization, not an earthly one. They were called by divine inspiration "Christians". The faithful ones followed their Master Jesus Christ "no matter where he went".

When that original congregation apostasized, it formed the Roman Catholic Church. Was it that the Roman Catholic Church was Jehovah's organization? No. But it itself did hold Jehovah's anointed within it, did it not? What about the reformation periods? Jehovah still had his faithful anointed scattered thoughout the various sects and denominations of the nominal church. Was it that the baptists were God's organization? Was it that the anglican church, the presbyterian church, the adventist church, the pentecostal chuch, or any other church was to be considered Jehovah's earthly organization? No. But we do know that these various denominations had Jehovah's anointed within them. Likewise, even today, we know that Jehovah has anointed within the Jehovah's Witness congregations, but does that in itself mean that the WTBTS is Jehovah's earthly organization? Of course not. It can be said that these various anointed belong to Jehovah's heavenly organization, but it cannot be said that the earthly organization of Jehovahs Witnesses itself is God's organization. For we ourselves gathered here, at this site, also claim that we have anointed present, do we not? But do we dare declare ourselves as Jehovah's new earthly organization? Perhaps we should start writing posts to praise the e-jehovahs-witnesses.com website, declaring it as Jehovah's new earthly organization... telling people that they can only find salvation through this website... may that never happen!

Likewise, how many here are active members of Jehovahs Witnesses? Of course there are some. But many here were either disfellowshipped, which means they were kicked out and therefore no longer members of Jehovah's Witnesses, or they disassociated themselves, which also means they're no longer members of Jehovah's Witnesses. Also, we have members here who never were Jehovah's witnesses to begin with... like myself. But of those who are disfellowshipped, disassociated, or who never became members of Jehovahs Witnesses, are we all to be considered OUTSIDE of Jehovah's organization? May that never happen! For if that is the case, then WOE to us! For we have found ourselves as opposers of Jehovah himself!

This is also why everything that was carefully concealed within that organization is now being revealed. The "proof" that was used to show that the Jehovah's Witness organization was indeed Jehovah's earthly organization has now perished. It has been revealed from heaven that the claims made about 1914-1918 are NOT SO. It has been revealed from heaven that Jesus did not come in 1914-1918 to cleanse the temple. It has been revealed from heaven that Jesus did not come in 1914-1918 to appoint the "faithful slave" over all of his belongings. His "belongings" by the way also include those god fearing people of the "nominal church". Rather, what has it revealed? Transgression. Transgression against whom? Jesus Christ and Jehovah God. Transgression by whom? By those who made these claims to begin with, and by those who refuse to be reproved today concerning those claims.

Jehovah's organization is that which it has always been since Pentecost 33 CE. It is still comprised of Jesus Christ as its foundation cornerstone, the Apostles and prophets as its foundation stones, and Jehovah's anointed being harmoniously joined together to be built up together for a place for Jehovah to inhabit with spirit. Anyone who is a part of this heavenly organization has no fear of being kicked out of any earthly organization... for their organization is that which is in the heavens, and has nothing to do with any earthly organization. Jesus did say that whenever two or more are gathered "in his name" (let the reader discern that I did not say "those who claim to gather in his name"), that he himself will be there. Likewise, Jehovah himself will be there with spirit and power. It does not matter what earthly organization these ones are apart of, for Jehovah recognizes none except the one in which he himself established through his son Jesus Christ... that organization is a heavenly one. This organization is also extensively organized, because it has Jesus Christ as its head. He himself is now alive and acting as head and Master over this heavenly organization... a perfect governor, one ruling to perfection those whom look to him for salvation.

I am not trying to prove that Jehovah's Witnesses are not god's people.... for I believe that all persons belong to him. But one may ask: "Where was Jehovah's earthly organization before CT Russell and the Bible Students came along?" The answer that most Jehovahs witnesses would give is that Jehovah during that time had faithful anointed followers that were "scattered about" throughout the various religious organizations of the times. And that these ones themselves were apart of his organization. I doubt any Witnesses would say that his earthly organization was the various churches of Christendom themselves during that time.... rather, they would say that Jehovah's organization was separate from that. Likewise, on that same thought, I contend that Jehovah's Organization now is the same one that existed even back then.... separate from ANY earthly organization. Likewise, I also believe that if anything is formed by man, and said to represent Jehovah's heavenly organization, then I contend that this thing formed is indeed an Idol. And those that made it are idolators. And I also contend that all those who either in word or deed that bend their knees to such an idol are also guilty of Idolatry, and need to be warned so they can turn around and repent. The scriptures clearly state that Jesus Christ is the way to Jehovah (John 14:6) Whoever teaches that the way to Jehovah is through an organization is teaching something contrary to Jesus Christ. Just as the Roman Catholics teach that salvation only comes THROUGH the church, can we at the same time teach people that salvation only comes through the Jehovah's Witness organization? If so, we're idolators and are in need of repentance, because we have replaced Jesus Christ with something else... this is idolatry. If we teach that salvation rest THROUGH any man or group including the anointed themselves, then we're idolators, and in need of repentance. For we have replaced Jesus Christ with something else... this is idolatry. For the scriptures clearly teach there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved... except Jesus Christ. (Acts 4:12)

The "brotherhood" of the anointed, those who are members of the spiritual temple act as ambassadors substituting for Christ. Their mission is to tell those of the earth to "become reconciled to God!" How does one become reconciled to God? Only through Jesus Christ whom is alive and ruling as head and Master over the congregation of God in power and glory in the heavens (2Cor 5:20). He is "the way", "the truth", and "the life" (John 4:16) Noone, noone, noone, comes to the father except through Jesus Christ. He is the gatekeeper. And anyone or anything that comes in his place is a thief and a plunderer. (John 10:1-16)

The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples (nor earthly buildings, or earthly organizations), neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all (persons) life and breath and all things. And he made out of one (man) every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and he set limits of the dwelling of (men), for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. - Acts 17:24-31

[DoubtingThomas]

I fully agree with your points about men who establish religions as actually setting up an idol for others who may come to worship that religion eventually, rather than God.. That has happened to many of us in the WTBTS religion. But that is why the judgment starts with us. Who else were the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that were not completely filled yet supposed to apply to but God’s people on earth – an organized religion that is known today as Jehovah’s Witnesses!

Excellent topic by the way.

DoubtingThomas

[Cephalon]

But that is why the judgment starts with us. [/b]

Good Point DT,

I have always wondered if God doesn't have a group of people, a 'house', an organisation, why does the judgment start within His own house? If one says that God people can be found in every religion, the notion "judgment starts within his own house first" does not make sense.

[littleone]

I fully agree with your points about men who establish religions as actually setting up an idol for others who may come to worship that religion eventually, rather than God.. That has happened to many of us in the WTBTS religion. But that is why the judgment starts with us. Who else were the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that were not completely filled yet supposed to apply to but God's people on earth – an organized religion that is known today as Jehovah's Witnesses![/b]DoubtingThomas,

If I may, can I ask you a few questions? From the time of the fifth century CE, until about the year 1850, what was Jehovah's organization? What was its name? Where was its earthly headquarters? Where did all his true followers from Jehovah's organization gather back then? If you and I could travel back in time to the 16th century... could you take me to the place where Jehovah's people worshipped him? Could you bring me to the place where it was acceptable to Jehovah to worship him (ie: kingdom hall)? Which organized religious group back then had the truth?

Surely Jehovah had a "house" back then, did he not? Those apart of it were his people...... so where were they gathered together? Which organization back then had the "elders" and "ministerial servants" spoken about in the bible? According to your reasoning, there had to be one. So which one was it? Catholic, Protestant, Anglican perhaps?

I do not argue with you that Jehovah did indeed have an organization back then, for there certainly was one.... but can you tell me what its name was back then? And if not, do you get the point?


Consider this. If you and I are members of a corporation, lets say we're "representitives" of that corporation. We fly to Japan to represent our corporation in business. Would we ever say that we ARE that corporation? Even if a whole plane load of us were to go to Japan... would we say that we ARE that corporation? Or would we still yet only be representatives of that corporation?

Likewise, it is a serious thing to say we ARE Jehovah's organization, if we're merely representatives of it. Where is his organization? Is it on earth? If so, then where was it during the times of the 5th century CE to 1850? Where was it centralized? Where was its headquarters? I can tell you where the Jehovah's witness headquarter is... its in Brooklyn New York. Where was it back in those days?

[Jinnvisible]

Consider this. If you and I are members of a corporation, lets say we're "representitives" of that corporation. We fly to Japan to represent our corporation in business. Would we ever say that we ARE that corporation?[/b]

depends how badly you speak japanesse

[stayawake]

QUOTE(littleone @ Jul 25 2007, 11:57 PM)
Consider this. If you and I are members of a corporation, lets say we're "representitives" of that corporation. We fly to Japan to represent our corporation in business. Would we ever say that we ARE that corporation?


Dear littleone
I can see exactly where you are coming from.
In fact now that I am out looking in, I can see that the WT is exactly that
A BIG CORPORATION.

We have our brothers and sisters who must dress their best for the meetings,and assemblies. Now its also the tours to Bethel, where casual clothing is a no,no/

When one would see a brother all done up in shirt tie, suit, haircut,brief case apart from the meetings one would view that one as a white collor worker representing a corporation,
Not Jehovah and his son

The WT is more concerned about their name, not Jehovahs .After all we are talking about Big Busniess.
Weren't the Pharasees more concerned over the deciples not washing ,before they sat down to eat with Jesus,
They certainly were not interested in anything Jesus had to say, it was disturbing them that they weren't keeping the law.

I know of cases where a brother was counciled after being on the platform, for wearing a sport coat, instead of a suit.
It didnt matter how much time and energy that he put into his part, did his preperation for what he presented mean anything ??? Was anyone even listening !! or were they thinking He should be dressed better. Show me the scriptures !

Keep in mind it is the WT that tells us why we should dress our best, like the saying goes "there orders from Headquarters "it certainly isn't to make Jehovah look good.
Look at John the baptist,and one prophet even was in the nude.
At one time Jehovah even counciled Samual to not look at the outside appearence when he went to select the next king. It was David ,the least of his brothers who Jehovah selected.

So in reality these suits ,ties, brief cases do represent the WTBTS a corperation and , and NOT Jehovah God ,no matter what they say.
The WT has become a idol,
I remember working with circuit overseers in the field and there introduction was,after giving their name was, I am a visiting represenative from the Watchtower Tract and Bible society.
Never did any of them say they were a represenative from Jehovah God.
They were plugging a Printing corperation.
Was this making Jehovahs name Known, ?
ok Jehovah was mentioned if they got a listener, but the WTBTS was right in there at the top.

I only speak for myself
love stayawake

[DoubtingThomas]

Excellent questions littleone. But they will take a little more time to answer than I have to give them this Friday evening. I could give you a brief answer right now, but I am sure that you want to know the sources of my information, so I will give your questions the time they deserve later this weekend when I am not so busy. And since you are not a baptised witness, and I am low on hours this month, I will be able to count my time! How's that for WT corporation mentality?

I hope no one takes that seriously!

Actually your questions are fairly elementary in nature. That is not a put down to you. Please don't be offended. But I am sure most here on this board could answer them. I am just suprised that no one else has jumped in and attempted to do so yet.

Take care my Brother.

DoubtingThomas

[sayjay3]

I fully agree with your points about men who establish religions as actually setting up an idol for others who may come to worship that religion eventually, rather than God.. That has happened to many of us in the WTBTS religion. But that is why the judgment starts with us. Who else were the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that were not completely filled yet supposed to apply to but God's people on earth – an organized religion that is known today as Jehovah's Witnesses!

Excellent topic by the way.

DoubtingThomas[/b]

[sayjay3]

<div class='quotemain'>I fully agree with your points about men who establish religions as actually setting up an idol for others who may come to worship that religion eventually, rather than God.. That has happened to many of us in the WTBTS religion. But that is why the judgment starts with us. Who else were the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that were not completely filled yet supposed to apply to but God&#39;s people on earth – an organized religion that is known today as Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses!

Excellent topic by the way.

DoubtingThomas[/b]
[/b][/quote]

There are still people out there who do know the truth without having to have someone teach it to them. My husband knew these truths before I ever met a Jehovah&#39;s Witness. He did not grow up in any religion. I was a Baptist until I was 32 years old. I used to make fun of my husband for not believing in hell and always quoting Matthew 5:5 to me when I was angry over some trival thing. He always told me that the Bible was God&#39;s owners manual for humans to live by. Most of the truths I learned from Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, I had already heard about from my husband 10 years before I met them. When one of the Witnesses came to my door I was dumbstruck at what they were saying because I had already heard them for so many years before from my husband. Because they could answer so many of the questions I had wondered about for most of my life, I began to attend the meetings. My point is there are still people out there in the world who know Jehovah without any one having to tell them who he is. Some of them may be part of other religions who have not had a Witness come to their door yet so they have not got out of false religion. That isn&#39;t to say they still can&#39;t come to an accurate knowledge of Jehovah thru his Word.

[Nambo]

Why only today I was chatting to a Woman at work, on learning she was involved with a church, I asked her if her church thought that we where close to Jesus coming with his Kingdom, she said yes, you can see with all the bad things happening etc, I asked her what church teaches her this, she said, "Catholic".

On further discussing a TV programme she had seen about Muslims and there views on Jesus, I pointed out they consider it blaspomous of Christianity to say that Jesus is God, no, she said, Jesus is the Son of God, on further enquiry it is plain that she has no concept of the Trinity but truly belives Jesus is the Son of God.

Maybe she doesnt knock on doors, but Iam sure Jesus can see her heart that she is a good person who belives in Jesus and God just the same as we do.

[James]

Hi Nambo,

I wonder if she is a practicing catholic or just identifies with them.

Being a former catholic myself from childhood, I haven&#39;t heard any recent revelations that they no longer believe in the &#39;mystery of the trinity&#39;.

But then, I do hear stories of how catholcism becomes intermeshed with local pagan customs, so that a catholic in one country might have different views on basic doctrines than one from another region.

agape,
James

[Jinnvisible]

Maybe she doesnt knock on doors, but Iam sure Jesus can see her heart that she is a good person who belives in Jesus and God just the same as we do.[/b]

Okay, but why would Jesus need to look in her heart to see if she was a good person if you didn&#39;t have to ? Surey she&#39;s not good simply because she doesn&#39;t believe in the trinity. Satan doesn&#39;t believe in the trinity, and Satan doesn&#39;t think Jesus is God either.