'we' In John 21:24

[Berean]

I hope I am posting this in the right forum. I have a question concerning John 21:24, which reads 'This is the disciple that bears witness about these things and that wrote these things, and we know that the witness he gives is true.'

Now what I am wondering is, to whom does the 'we' here refer, since 'he' refers to John? My idea is that this was written by a scribe who penned down what John was dictating to him, since John was, by the time the gospel that bears his name was written, a very old man, and he might have had trouble writing, so he possibly used scribes, like Paul had done when he was in chains. This would mean that, if John 21:24 would indeed be written by that scribe, he was talking on behalf of all the Christians during the time that gospel was written.

In essence, my question is, do you think I am on the right track, or totally off? If so, who would the 'we' be referring to then, if John himself wrote it down like that? Any answers and commentaries would be much appreciated.

[Shibboleth]

I found this part of the gospels interesting. I thought John wrote this in third person. But he might have used a scribe, but why would a scribe insert his own terminology? The scribe is supposed to write verbatim what is said and not put things into his own words. This is just my opinion.




John 21

20 (http://) Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: “Lord, who is the one betraying you?” 21 (http://) Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, what will this [man do]?” 22 (http://) Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 (http://) In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”[/b]

I really like this point that Jesus made to Peter. It's also interesting that John, who wrote the Revelation, did witness Jesus returning in that vision.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Berean]

Well, the reason I started thinking about this again (I've always been fascinated by the conclusion of John's gospel), was the image in the Revelation book that shows John on Patmos, in chains. That's why I considered the possibility of him using a scribe to write through. Although this sounds a bit less likely for the book Revelation, which deals with visions, and I can't help but think that such things would be written down personally (besides, perhaps he wasn't even in chains, I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the Bible), but there could be a possibility of John having used a scribe in Ephesus, where he probably wrote his gospel and his three letters. It was not uncommon in those times to use a scribe - both Peter (whose scribe was Silvanus, according to 1 Peter 5:12) and Paul (whose scribe for the letter to the Romans was Tertius), made use of scribes. Interestingly, Tertius writes this in Romans 16:22: 'I, Tertius, who have done the writing of this letter, greet you in the Lord.' So it would seem that it wasn't entirely impossible that scribes put in a phrase of their own near the end of a writing. It does not put forward any personal ideas of the scribe in Tertius' case, and neither does it in John 21:24, if that verse was indeed written by a scribe. Of course I cannot provide any solid evidence for this at all, but I find it interesting to think about these subjects anyway, since it makes one more familiar with the Bible, and it helps me to understand how very real the people who Jehovah chose to write the Bible were. I know that not everyone may agree, but I find these sorts of things fascinating - but I will of course be careful not to indulge in seemingly trivial matters, so that I would lose sight of the bigger picture. It's just something that's been on my mind for a while, and I thought this would be a nice place to talk about it. :)

[Shibboleth]

Paul also used Timothy, didn't he, in writing?


In the case of John this may be the case with his gospel and maybe Revelation. I know Revelation was a widely disputed book because there were some that thought the Apostle John never wrote it but it some other John who was in the Christian congregation. It almost was canned from the Bible.

Maybe it was the use of scribes that made the writing look different. It would make sense.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Berean]

Paul also used Timothy, didn't he, in writing?[/b]
Yes, Paul wrote a few letters together with Timothy, and it's quite possible that Timothy did the actual writing for those.


Maybe it was the use of scribes that made the writing look different. It would make sense.[/b]
Yes, I have considered that possibility. I know that there is some controversy as to who wrote the books attributed to John (some even go so far as to say there were three different Johns), partly because of some differences in grammar. Reasons for this could be the use of different scribes, or perhaps that John only used one or more scribes in Ephesus, and wrote Revelation himself. It could be an explanation, even though the scribe might not have written down John 21:24 from his own perspective. Regardless, the way in which all the books of the Bible complement, and not contradict, each other gives us ample reason to trust in the authorship of those books written by John, and shows that the arguments of those scientists who propose otherwise are not watertight by a long shot.

[Nash]

Hi Berean! B)

Good question. I actually never gave it that much thought before.

Offhand, I'd say that the explanation offered with respect to the scribe makes sense to me too.

Nash