Can A Prophet Of Jehovah Be Wrong?

[Maranatha]

Here's a question I've been wanting to ask since I came across this site. Can a prophet of Jehovah be wrong in what he proclaims will come to pass? Is a prophet's being right or wrong proof that they are being used by Jehovah (or not)?

I'd also like to know if someone can tell me if a watchman's role and a prophet's role are synonymous? Maybe Robert can answer this, or someone else.

Thanks

Thomas

[James]

First of all, Welcome Maranatha, I hope you find what you seek here a s we all search for the deep things of God.

As to your first question, we all know the prophets from the bible could NOT be wrong, since 2 Tim 3:16 says 16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial"....,so those are Jehovahs' thoughts, not man's.

Now since the 1st/ 2nd century, we read in 1 Cor. 13:8 ..."But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with;"...

James

[stayawake]

Hi Thomas, welcome
I really dont intend to high jack this thread but I feel one good question deserves another

Why is it the governing Body refers to its self as being the FAITHFUL and Discreet Slave .???

All scripture certainly points to them as NOT being FAITHFUL, and THEN that appointment does NOT take place until Jesus arrives.

As far as watchmen and prophets the GB has been niether.

All the solid truths that the slave boasts of providing
came from ONE man Charles Russell,
The GB has been wrong on everything , since Russells death.

Could you share some scriptual light on this ?

[Jeshurun]

Hi Thomas and welcome to the forum...

One of the scriptures that came to my mind was this one that seems to be very applicable here:

Ezekiel 14:9 “‘And as for the prophet, in case he gets fooled and actually speaks a word, I myself, Jehovah, have fooled that prophet; and I will stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they will have to bear their error. The error of the inquirer will prove to be just the same as the error of the prophet, 11 in order that those of the house of Israel may no more go wandering off from following me and may no more go defiling themselves with all their transgressions. And they must become my people and I myself shall become their God,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

We can see here that we can have prophets who claim to be speaking for Jehovah who have not proven to be diligent in their work. Of course 1914 immediately comes to mind, upon which an elaborate and unscrupulous castle of sand has been built upon a foundation of sand, and there's a huge wave comin' in. Will there be prophesying in the last days? According to Joel chapter 2, yes:

28 “And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see. 29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.

Notice the words "and after that it must occur". After what? The answer comes in the previous verses:

21 “Do not be fearful, O ground. Be joyful and rejoice; for Jehovah will actually do a great thing in what He does. 22 Do not be fearful, YOU beasts of the open field, for the pasture grounds of [the] wilderness will certainly grow green. For the tree will actually give its fruitage. The fig tree and the vine must give their vital energy. 23 And, YOU sons of Zion, be joyful and rejoice in Jehovah YOUR God; for he will be bound to give YOU the autumn rain in right measure, and he will bring down upon YOU people a downpour, autumn rain and spring rain, as at the first. 24 And the threshing floors must be full of [cleansed] grain, and the press vats must overflow with new wine and oil. 25 And I will make compensation to YOU for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among YOU. 26 And YOU will certainly eat, eating and becoming satisfied, and YOU will be bound to praise the name of Jehovah YOUR God, who has done with YOU so wonderfully; and my people will not be ashamed to time indefinite. 27 And YOU people will have to know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah YOUR God and there is no other. And my people will not be ashamed to time indefinite.

The problem here is that the last days have not begun, and the master prophet craftsmen at Bethel have had to contrive and concoct and manufacture and contort and split hairs using smoke and mirrors to make the prophecies fit their delusions of grandeur. As we can see from the above verses, Jehovah's people have been cleansed, punished, tested, refined, ready for his grand work to declare Jehovah's judgment upon the nations. We see this in the first 2 verses of chapter 3:

3 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.

As for a watchman and a prophet, I think they are two completely different things. The Watchtower is an empty tower with no watchmen in sight, so either there are no watchmen or the watchmen are drunk and have fallen asleep. The real watchmen have to be somewhere.

Here's a response Robert once gave someone who asked a similar question, from the October 2, 2005 mailbag:

http://e-watchman.com/mailbag/2005/october-2-2005.html

Agape
Lou

[stayawake]

.

Here's a response Robert once gave someone who asked a similar question, from the October 2, 2005 mailbag:
http://e-watchman.com/mailbag/2005/october-2-2005.html

Agape
Lou
[/quote]


Lou just read the link u supplied.

That was the perfect link and answer for Thomas
I think once the friends realize that Jah is NOT speaking to Christendem as the WT teaches, but rather He is speaking to HIS HOUSEHOLD ( professed annointed ) then one is able to see clearly.
The WT is not only blinded to the fact that the prophets judgements are against them, and NOT christendem
but cleverly had us believing the same thing.
Hard lesson we learned
Never ever put ones trust in man

love stayawake

[Maranatha]

First of all, Welcome Maranatha, I hope you find what you seek here a s we all search for the deep things of God.

As to your first question, we all know the prophets from the bible could NOT be wrong, since 2 Tim 3:16 says 16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial"....,so those are Jehovahs' thoughts, not man's.

Now since the 1st/ 2nd century, we read in 1 Cor. 13:8 ..."But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with;"...

James[/b]

A question: Was Jonah a prophet of Jehovah? And if so, did what he prophesied against Nineveh come to pass? Or did he turn out to be wrong?

[littleone]

A question: Was Jonah a prophet of Jehovah? And if so, did what he prophesied against Nineveh come to pass? Or did he turn out to be wrong?[/b]There is a big difference in what Jonah prophesied, than what some others do. The message that he proclaimed against Nineveh was directly from Jehovah. It was not a message of error. The message he gave was absolutely correct, without error. However, Jehovah always does reserve the right to "change his mind", especially in circumstances like those concerning Nineveh.

This is why Jehovah actually sent Jonah there in the first place... to declare their pending doom. If Jehovah was set on destroying Nineveh no matter what, then what would even be the sense of sending Jonah there in the first place? It would have proven to be useless. Would he not just destroy them like he did with Sodom and Gomorrah? But instead, Jehovah sent Jonah there to give them a divine warning of their impending doom, with the hopes that they would turn around and repent. In this case, Nineveh did turn around and repent. For it, they were spared.

Jehovah's sending Jonah to Nineveh was actually an act of loving kindness towards the city. This is why Jehovah in other places has given divine warning of impending doom throughout the scriptures. It was so those ones could turn around and repent and be spared.

I suppose to some, that they could say that Jonah was a liar, for what he said did not come to pass. However, the message he gave was not "a message of error". For Jehovah's anger was against the city of Nineveh. If they did not turn around and repent, then they would have been destroyed. But this is alot different than giving false prophecies.

Giving a divine warning as Jonah did can have two results. Either the people that received the warning listen, turn around and repent. Or they reject that message. As stated above, this would seem to be the logical reason for giving such a message in the first place.... so that the ones receiving it can turn around and repent.

However, making such claims as God's kingdom arrived in 1914, and that Jesus Christ appointed a small group as the "faithful and discreet slave" at that time ("meaning themselves, so they can dominate over their brothers"), is not even close to being in the same ballpark as what Jonah experienced.

Furthermore, if one is to disagree with them concerning these things, then they will be thrown out of the organization. These ones sit as kings, and rule with an iron fist. Anyone who does not bow to them, and to their teachings is cut off as one worthy of death. They lord it over their brothers to the full. And what provisions do they use to do these things? They use "the lie" to protect their "place" amongst their brothers. Every provision that they use to base their authority over their brothers is based on a lie!

-We know that Jesus did not arrive in 1914 and appoint them as "the faithful and discreet slave". Therefore, the provision they use as a security blanket amongst their brothers is based on a lie.

-We know that Jesus taught that HE himself was the only way to Jehovah, not any earthly organization, nor through any group of men. There is only one way to Jehovah, and that is through Jesus Christ himself. - John 14:6; Acts 4:12

-We are taught by them that "Anyone who calls upon Jehovah's name will be saved". However, they do not point to Jehovah's only provision, namely Jesus Christ for salvation. They do not act as ambassadors for Christ by saying "Become reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, who is the ONLY MEDIATOR between mankind and God!" Rather, they point to themselves as "the way" to become reconciled to Jehovah... through, and only through their organization. - Acts 4:12 Therefore they divert the faith of the ones who follow them. Thus, they set themselves in Christ's seat.

-They teach that the only way to have a relationship with Jehovah is through his organization, by learning from "the faithful and discreet slave". However, the bible teaches that there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO HAVE ANY SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WITH JEHOVAH WHATSOEVER, UNLESS IT IS THROUGH AND ONLY THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. So in this way they set themselves in Christ's seat.

Concerning such ones, does the bible teach that we should still listen to such ones that use a lie to promote their position as overseer and prophet amongst their brothers? Can this be likened to Jonah in any way whatsoever?

[Maranatha]

<div class='quotemain'>A question: Was Jonah a prophet of Jehovah? And if so, did what he prophesied against Nineveh come to pass? Or did he turn out to be wrong?[/b]There is a big difference in what Jonah prophesied, than what some others do. The message that he proclaimed against Nineveh was directly from Jehovah. It was not a message of error. The message he gave was absolutely correct, without error. However, Jehovah always does reserve the right to "change his mind", especially in circumstances like those concerning Nineveh.

This is why Jehovah actually sent Jonah there in the first place... to declare their pending doom. If Jehovah was set on destroying Nineveh no matter what, then what would even be the sense of sending Jonah there in the first place? It would have proven to be useless. Would he not just destroy them like he did with Sodom and Gomorrah? But instead, Jehovah sent Jonah there to give them a divine warning of their impending doom, with the hopes that they would turn around and repent. In this case, Nineveh did turn around and repent. For it, they were spared.

Jehovah&#39;s sending Jonah to Nineveh was actually an act of loving kindness towards the city. This is why Jehovah in other places has given divine warning of impending doom throughout the scriptures. It was so those ones could turn around and repent and be spared.

I suppose to some, that they could say that Jonah was a liar, for what he said did not come to pass. However, the message he gave was not "a message of error". For Jehovah&#39;s anger was against the city of Nineveh. If they did not turn around and repent, then they would have been destroyed. But this is alot different than giving false prophecies.

Giving a divine warning as Jonah did can have two results. Either the people that received the warning listen, turn around and repent. Or they reject that message. As stated above, this would seem to be the logical reason for giving such a message in the first place.... so that the ones receiving it can turn around and repent.[/b][/quote]

I appreciate you taking the time to answer me, but I still have questions for you or anyone who wants to respond.

I guess my first question right now is this: Where in Jonah&#39;s message was there a provision that in the event that Nineveh repented that his prophetic announcements would not come to pass? There are other occasions where Jehovah&#39;s prophets&#39; message included a "unless you turn around..." but this is not the case with Jonah when he served as one of Jehovah&#39;s prophets, so I&#39;d like to know why I should accept your response as anything but reading into the Bible&#39;s text in order to justify Jonah&#39;s prophetic announcements as turning out to be wrong.

Thanking you in advance,
Thomas

[littleone]

I appreciate you taking the time to answer me, but I still have questions for you or anyone who wants to respond.

I guess my first question right now is this: Where in Jonah&#39;s message was there a provision that in the event that Nineveh repented that his prophetic announcements would not come to pass? There are other occasions where Jehovah&#39;s prophets&#39; message included a "unless you turn around..." but this is not the case with Jonah when he served as one of Jehovah&#39;s prophets, so I&#39;d like to know why I should accept your response as anything but reading into the Bible&#39;s text in order to justify Jonah&#39;s prophetic announcements as turning out to be wrong.

Thanking you in advance,
Thomas[/b]There are many occurances within the scriptures where Jehovah has changed his mind. Consider the time of when Moses was upon Mount Sinai, and when the Israelites created the golden calf. Jehovah told Moses that he was going to exterminate them ALL. Jehovah was content to make a nation out of Moses&#39; seed. However, because Moses made petition for the people, Jehovah turned away from his blazing anger against the people... and some were spared.

Likewise, Jehovah always does reserve the right to have mercy. For he is a god full of merciful kindness. He can apply Christ&#39;s sacrifice upon anyone he chooses... even the people of Nineveh. Really, if you&#39;re going to pass blame and say Jonah was a liar, then wouldn&#39;t you also have to on the same hand say that Jehovah himself was the liar? For he was the one that told Jonah to go and proclaim the message that he proclaimed. Did Jehovah give Jonah a false message? Was he the liar? May that never happen! Instead, let Jehovah be found true, though every man a liar... including Jonah himself. Therefore we must recognize that Jehovah himself does reserve the right to change his mind. He has done so in many cases throughout the scriptures... always based on his righteous judgments.

The whole point of the book of Jonah was to show Jehovah&#39;s mercy... for he is a merciful God. He had mercy, not only for the people of Nineveh, but also for Jonah himself. For Jonah initially refused to go and proclaim Jehovah&#39;s message to the people of Nineveh. Yet, Jehovah in his mercy found provision for Jonah, and reproved him.

Your question also brings about another question: "Why did Jehovah send Jonah to the people of Nineveh to proclaim their destruction, if in fact there was no hope in changing Jehovah&#39;s mind?" Jehovah always has a purpose behind the things he does. He does not do things for no reason. If infact there was no way that he was going to change his mind, don&#39;t you think it would have been for no reason that he sent Jonah in the first place? Perhaps the book of Jonah isn&#39;t about the pending Judgments that were upon Nineveh... perhaps there was a greater and more important theme behind this book of the bible.

It says that Jonah walked from one end of the city to the other end, it took him 3 days. Do you think the only words that came out of his mouth was ""Only forty days more, and Nin´e·veh will be overthrown.""? If so, then really, the people of Nineveh wouldn&#39;t have even known it was Jehovah that was angry with them. However, by the words of the King of Nineveh, we realize that they did indeed know it was because of Jehovah&#39;s anger, for the King himself says: "Who is there knowing whether the [true] God may turn back and actually feel regret and turn back from his burning anger, so that we may not perish?" Does this itself not give evidence that Jonah did say more to the people of Nineveh than is mentioned in the account? Obviously Jonah explained to them that Jehovah himself was angry with them. And no doubt he also explained why Jehovah was angry with them. Likewise, there is also good reason to believe that Jehovah gave some sort of provision for them to repent and turn around, as he did in other accounts throughout the scriptures when giving "warnings" through the mouth of the prophets.

Obviously, the message about impending doom upon the people of Nineveh, what their sins were to begin with, and the provisions for them turning around was not the important message that we should glean from this book in the Bible. For it doesn&#39;t even mention many of these things, just as it doesn&#39;t mention what their sins were to begin with. Rather, the book of Jonah teaches us more important lessons... not lessons on Judgment, but rather lessons of mercy.

[Steadfast]

Dear LittleOne,

I like your thoughts concerning the book of Jonah. I was thinking, too, when reading what you said, that perhaps the book of Jonah may well picture the work of the two witnesses during the great tribulation.

The great crowd that comes out of the tribulation as a result of the preaching work of the two witnesses, shows that Jehovah will have great mercy on many because of their repentance.

Love,

Steadfast

[Jinnvisible]

I&#39;d also like to know if someone can tell me if a watchman&#39;s role and a prophet&#39;s role are synonymous? Maybe Robert can answer this, or someone else.

Thanks

Thomas[/b]

I don`t believe that they, neccesarily are synonymous.

Samuel`s role doesn`t really encompass this (in biblical report), in fact when Saul attempted to consult Samuel in this regard there were some strange results. Jonah`s role for instance doesn`t seem to encompass this aspect, as God`s feelings about Ninevah were not widely understood (or at least do not seem to be reported as so) before Jonah pronounced it, and because the judgement on Ninevah was overturned by the same prophet that announced its posible fate within the timespan of the errand.

Ezekiel`s role as watchman has a specific militaristic connection.

Remember David`s reaction to the Philistine Goliath. David didn`t note the grandure of the adversary, he noted the grandure of the one whose battleline was taunted. David`s size didn`t matter, his brothers didn`t see it coming he was the young errand boy to them.

It would seem that Ezekiel`s being made a watchman is similar to David`s comparitive smallness.

When would a watchman ever lie down on the floor to see an enemy approaching ? A watchman would usually stand in the highest battlement with a 360 view if possible. Yet Jehovah is making a point with Ezekiel and is performing his unique and most holy poetry of justice. The God of Israel makes Ezekiel, not only lie down on the ground, but face in only one direction for months at a time.

Jehovah can show his watchman what is coming regardless of his position in Israel. So the fact that he was made a watchman wouldn`t have been pointed out in specifics if it was a general aspect of every prophet`s mantle. Seemingly.

This of course was with respect to the panicky nature with which Israel had attempted to gain alliances with millitaristic nations such a Egypt for protection which of course could perhaps be seen as UN-NGO type of instances.

The Great Tribulation is spoken about as being a time unique on the earth with no comparison. This is a very good rule of thumb.

You can take all of what is known about the bible in terms of cross referencing and understanding what went previously and still not fully understand what is coming and how prophesy will fulfill.

Although their are previous patterns of prophetic events which did fulfill thier are really no precidents for the fuller fulfilments which are approaching now, only outlines.

There will be surprises to every position of thought because it is Jehovah`s own day that approaches. Jehovah of armies is an unassailible warlord.

[Shibboleth]

Ninevah was destroyed, but at a later date. Jehovah felt remorse for them since the King repented and turned from his ways, but Jehovah&#39;s Divine Judgement against them did come to fruition. Jonah&#39;s message was also a test for Jonah as well. Jehovah humbled Jonah.

[James]

I appreciate you taking the time to answer me, but I still have questions for you or anyone who wants to respond.

I guess my first question right now is this: Where in Jonah&#39;s message was there a provision that in the event that Nineveh repented that his prophetic announcements would not come to pass? There are other occasions where Jehovah&#39;s prophets&#39; message included a "unless you turn around..." but this is not the case with Jonah when he served as one of Jehovah&#39;s prophets, so I&#39;d like to know why I should accept your response as anything but reading into the Bible&#39;s text in order to justify Jonah&#39;s prophetic announcements as turning out to be wrong.

Thanking you in advance,
Thomas[/b]

Hi Thomas,

Just wanted to add some more thoughts on this...

First of all, was Jonah gifted with speaking in tongues to speak to them in the assyrian language? Or did an ninevite follow him around translating his message from hebrew?

Secondly, why would they believe a single man without an army could overthrow their "great city"? Would you not think him &#39;mad&#39; and laugh at him?
Unless Jonah was doing powerful works and performing miracles...
And we can reasonably assume so, as even Jesus alluded to in Matthew 12:38 Then as an answer to him some of the scribes and Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo′nah the prophet. 40 For just as Jo′nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 Men of Nin′e·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jo′nah preached, but, look! something more than Jo′nah is here."

"And the men of Nin′e·veh began to put faith in God."
Also we read, "Who is there knowing whether the [true] God may turn back and actually feel regret and turn back from his burning anger, so that we may not perish?"

So even though it is not recorded as ( "unless you turn around..." ) we can be sure they were given a choice and the outcome proves that.

So to sum it up, no the prophecy was not wrong, we just don&#39;t have all the details.

As Peter also wrote "For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."

Agape brother,
James

[Shibboleth]

First of all, was Jonah gifted with speaking in tongues to speak to them in the assyrian language? Or did an ninevite follow him around translating his message from hebrew?[/b]


Most likely Jonah knew Assyrian and most likely the King of Nineveh knew Hebrew. Since they were close neighbors and probably had trade between the two nations. it would be safe to say most people at that time were multilingual.

[billy]

Hello Thomas :wave:

I dont think watchman or the wts are prophets - when ever i have read about prophets in the bible, they were ones Jehovah had directly spoken too

I do see watchman and the wts to some degree as keeping on the watch - although as watchman has pointed out the wts seems to be asleep in regards to what to watch out for - they are so puffed up with pride about themselves and have elevated themselves to heaven - pride before a crash

i think watchman has alot of insight - and the book "Jehovah Has Become King" brought a fresh view of the scriptures inregards to what the real prophets had to say about Isreal and sSpiritual Isreal

The account of Jonah reminds me of the wts and christendom in some ways - the wts constantly condemns christendom - but fail to see their own inadequcies, just like Jonah failed to see his lack of love and mercy for the people of Ninevah -
I have a great love and respect for Jehovah on forgiving these people of NInevah - and hope this will be the situation in the last days of judgement that Jehovah will forgive in a large way - of course people have want to change and learn to love their God and fellow man

[stayawake]

"And the men of Nin′e·veh began to put faith in God."[/b]
Also we read, "Who is there knowing whether the [true] God may turn back and actually feel regret and turn back from his burning anger, so that we may not perish?"
James[/b] Thank you James


Hi Thomas,
The men of Nineveh started to put faith in Him , Isn&#39;t our God a hearer of prayers when someone turns around and is truly repentent !
Isn&#39;t our God Jehovah a loving God in fact God is LOVE, isn&#39;t He Long Suffering, Slow to anger and Just .??

"Who is there knowing whether the [true] God may turn back and actually feel regret and turn back from his burning anger, so that we may not perish?"
The Men of Nineveh didn&#39;t know ,nor did Jonah know , so theres a lesson in here .
Not to take the Underserved kindness of Jehovah for granted [u], and[b] Miss it&#39;s purpose.
2Pet 3:9

Love stayawake

[Maranatha]

Thanks everyone who replied. I kept hoping that someone would pick up my line of thought (not that I thought anyone would read my mind), but everyone seems to be looking at this with the advantage of hindsight, knowing how it turned out. But from Jonah&#39;s point of view, what he was preaching really was going to happen, and he became distraught when it didn&#39;t. Similarly, the apostles preached that the end of the system of things would arrive "soon" and it wasn&#39;t until toward the end of their lives that they began to realize that it wasn&#39;t going to happen the way that they had been preaching. Maybe they didn&#39;t name a date, but the point is the same: they preached that the end was upon this world and that Christ&#39;s kingdom would arrive within their lifetime. And it didn&#39;t happen. Did that nullify their preaching work? Did that make them false prophets? Of course not! But they were wrong, regardless.

In the same way, the brothers in our day really were convinced that the kingdom of God was soon to arrive. They came to the date of 1914 as the due date, and preached accordingly. When 1914 arrived, and the world broke into war, it seemed that they were right in their studies and calculations. But 1914 passed, and then 1915, and nothing came of their expectations. The world didn&#39;t end. The kingdom didn&#39;t overtake the earth. Did that make them false prophets for preaching and anticipating the arrival of the millennial kingdom? Opposers like to say so. But for all we know, the world WAS due to end in 1914, and maybe Jehovah exercised mercy just as he did for the Ninevites. As a result of it not happening, millions more have been able to learn the truth and become a part of Jehovah&#39;s organization. Meanwhile, the world as a whole keeps going on towards the finale. And it will continue to do so against the expectations of Jehovah&#39;s people.

On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming. (Matthew 24:44 NWT)

“But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ (Matthew 24:48 NWT)

While the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep. (Matthew 25:5 NWT)

Just to reiterate: there is no way we can know whether 1914 really was to be the end of the system of things, apart from all the studying and calculations and evidence leading to that year. We don&#39;t know why Jehovah allowed that year to pass without the arrival of the kingdom, except as an exercise in mercy, to allow untold millions more to become a part of his people. But the Bible is also clear that it will appear to us as though Jehovah is delaying, and because of that the "evil slave" will begin to beat the brothers, perhaps in a misguided attempt to keep us together in unity under human efforts (such as increased rules and expectations) rather than relying on Jehovah&#39;s ability to keep his people together. But it doesn&#39;t constitute false prophecy in the Christian sense (under Mosaic Law it would, but we are not under Mosaic Law) to announce something that you are certain will come to pass based on your examination of the scriptures alongside what is happening in the world around you.

Announcing pending judgments from Jehovah can be considered prophecy, but doing so may also lead to you being wrong because you are doing so by interpretation. Not to be confused with when Jehovah puts his words into the mouth of one of his people and directs them to speak that message, which is also prophecy, by inspiration. So, to answer my own question, yes, a prophet of Jehovah can be wrong. Because of this, we follow the directive of "making sure of all things" and put things to the test.

Thomas

[James]

Hi Maranatha,

Obviously we have a different understanding of biblical prophecy and who is a prophet of Jehovah.

As we read once again from 2Peter 1:20,21 "For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

So, the WTS&#39;s private interpretation of 1914 is just that- private interpretation!


So, once again, I respectfully disagree with you and I do not believe Jehovahs&#39; Holy Spirit gave Jonah a false prophecy.

Agape,
James

[stayawake]

I agree with James, so at least that makes two of us To think otherwise
IMHO is insulting to Jehovah

[NEW HEART]

Dear LittleOne,

I like your thoughts concerning the book of Jonah. I was thinking, too, when reading what you said, that perhaps the book of Jonah may well picture the work of the two witnesses during the great tribulation.

The great crowd that comes out of the tribulation as a result of the preaching work of the two witnesses, shows that Jehovah will have great mercy on many because of their repentance.

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

The book of Jonah is very important to our time...I had a dream back a year or so ago... and I could hear a mans voice say to me....feed the sheep...warn them to repent..."REMEMBER JONAH"....Then I woke up. I have been trying to speak up ever since..

New Heart

[watchman]

The difference between Jonah&#39;s preaching and the 1st century apostles and early Bible Students is that Jonah was specifially told to preach "40 days more and Niniveh will be overthrown." However, Jesus said that no one knows the day and hour -- except Jehovah. In the case of Niniveh Jehovah simply changed his mind and postponed the destruction because the Ninivites repented. But, as regards the day and hour of Jehovah&#39;s judgments it is already a fixed date that will not be postponed. Jehovah has already established the exact day, but no one knows it -- not even Jesus knew the day and hour when he was on earth. However, there is a seeming delay on God&#39;s part. But that is only our perception.

[DoubtingThomas]

Jonah is no fish story. The scriptures show that he was not a false prophet, but that he preached God’s message to the Assyrians exactly as he was commanded. It was due to the Assyrians sincere and dramatic repentance that they were not destroyed in within the 40 days as Jonah preached they would be. Also, we don’t know the details of Jonahs message. In fact, only one verse summarizes his message to the people of Nineveh. In Jonah 3:1 God say’s “proclaim to her (Nineveh) the proclamation I am speaking to you”. The details of that proclamation were not given. Perhaps they were promised God’s mercy if they repented. Nevertheless Jonah’s prophecy eventually did come true. It was just not in the time frame that Jonah was hoping for and expecting. Because Nineveh’s repentance must have been short lived, Jonah’s prophecy later did come true, as the Assyrian capital was destroyed in 612 BCE.

[Maranatha]

Okay I can see that I stepped on a lot of people&#39;s comfort zones with this, so I won&#39;t be pushing the discussion. I would like to say from the start here that I never said that Jonah was a FALSE prophet. What I said was that what he preached he believed was going to happen, but it did not happen as he thought. He was wrong. And I feel that warrants the question of whether a person being used as a prophet by Jehovah can be wrong. But it treads into people&#39;s comfort zones so I won&#39;t raise a ruckus.

Now, Robert writes:

Really, the idea of serving as modern Christian prophets should not be a foreign concept to Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. For example, the Watchtower coined the term "the Jeremiah class" in reference to the anointed of Jehovah who are living during the present era, because it is assumed that the organization fits the pattern of Jeremiah by our denouncing of Christendom.

So, in that respect we ought to understand the principle, at least, that those who correctly understand and deliver the ancient prophet&#39;s message are themselves serving as prophets, even though they are not personally appointed by Jehovah—as were the prophets with whom the messages originated. (Commentary Are You Saying You Are a Prophet?)

This is what I was talking about when I said that there is a marked difference between inspired prophecy and interpretive prophecy. Those who are appointed to deliver prophecy by inspiration are called prophets, and those who deliver the message of those prophets are prophets. If I misunderstand what Robert wrote then tell me. Anyone who delivers a message of judgment or deliverance from Jehovah is a prophet. Today, the Society does so by interpreting the clues given in the Bible, along with observations of our times. Robert does this as well, as do others. Do their prophetic announcements stand the test of time? Few do, if any, because they are interpretive, and as a result, new facts and new events change the situation. Does that invalidate the message underlying prophetic announcements? Not so long as that message is that there is a time appointed when Jehovah will hold the world to an accounting and a time of judgment and of refinement. That is the bottom line. We can try to guess how near or how far that Day is, but it will happen when we aren&#39;t expecting it no matter how awake we try to be. And that is what I was trying to get at in an earlier post. Prophets of Jehovah can be wrong, especially today. But what it doesn&#39;t diminish is that there IS a Day appointed.

I think I alluded to it in my earlier post, but the Society seems to have fallen victim to the perceived delaying on the part of the arrival of that day, because they now "beat" their fellow slaves into submission, using failed interpretations like 1914 and 1919 as a litmus test for loyalty and approved association with other Witnesses.

FWIW,
Thomas

[DoubtingThomas]

I don&#39;t think anyone here believes that you have "stepped on their comfort zones" Thomas. Speaking for myself anyway. Some are just trying to correct what we believe is a misunderstanding you have of the account of Jonah. We were just responding to your post(s). It is called communication - a sharing of information and beliefs.

And a little further research will also reveal to you that Jehovah was actually disciplining Jonah for his lack of compassion and mercy on the Assyrians. It was more important to Jonah to look right to those whom he had preached to, and not to appear as a false prophet, than it was for him to be glad they had repented. This was the lesson Jehovah had to teach Jonah using the bottle-gourd plant, as Jonah sat in the desert waiting for the "end" to come. May we all learn a good lesson from this account.

[Londoner]

I don&#39;t think anyone here believes that you have "stepped on their comfort zones" Thomas. Speaking for myself anyway. Some are just trying to correct what we believe is a misunderstanding you have of the account of Jonah. We were just responding to your post(s). It is called communication - a sharing of information and beliefs.

And a little further research will also reveal to you that Jehovah was actually disciplining Jonah for his lack of compassion and mercy on the Assyrians. It was more important to Jonah to look right to those whom he had preached to, and not to appear as a false prophet, than it was for him to be glad they had repented. This was the lesson Jehovah had to teach Jonah using the bottle-gourd plant, as Jonah sat in the desert waiting for the "end" to come. May we all learn a good lesson from this account.[/b]


AMEN!!!! :applaudit:


Londoner

[Maranatha]

I don&#39;t think anyone here believes that you have "stepped on their comfort zones" Thomas. Speaking for myself anyway. Some are just trying to correct what we believe is a misunderstanding you have of the account of Jonah. We were just responding to your post(s). It is called communication - a sharing of information and beliefs.[/b]

Noted.


And a little further research will also reveal to you that Jehovah was actually disciplining Jonah for his lack of compassion and mercy on the Assyrians. It was more important to Jonah to look right to those whom he had preached to, and not to appear as a false prophet, than it was for him to be glad they had repented. This was the lesson Jehovah had to teach Jonah using the bottle-gourd plant, as Jonah sat in the desert waiting for the "end" to come. May we all learn a good lesson from this account.[/b]

Sounds a lot like a lesson the Society should learn as well. :icon_rolleyes:

Thomas

[Jeshurun]

Here&#39;s some evidence that a "prophet of Jehovah" may not only be wrong, but can also admit they are wrong:

“True, there have been those in times past who predicted an “end to the world,” even announcing a specific date…. Yet nothing happened. The “end” did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? … Missing from such people were God&#39;s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them.” Awake! 1968 Oct. 8 p.23

Interestingly, another false date "suggestion" emanated from Bethel within a few years of this article. Does it make any difference to say "system of things" instead of "world"?

I am in no way suggesting that Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses are not "the intimate group" of God&#39;s people, but according to the Watchtower, they were never "God&#39;s channel of communication". The only "channels" are the testimonies of Jehovah, his only begotten Son Jesus, and the words of the inspired writers recorded in the infallible Holy Word of God, the Bible.

What the Bible does say is that some of the shepherds entrusted with tending to the flock have not done their job, but instead exalted themselves above The Word.

No man&#39;s word should be trusted, as every man has proven to be a liar.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don&#39;t think anyone here believes for one moment that Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses or any of their leadership have ever been a prophet of God. JW&#39;s certainly deny prophecying, in spite of their many failed predictions. But the point is this ... a true prophet of God can never be wrong when the message he proclaims comes from Jehovah himself. The prophet may be wrong in other matters, such as Jonah was when he was corrected by Jehovah, but the message Jonah proclaimed from God was not wrong. The Bible gives a clear distinction between a true prophet and a false prophet, but the question the original poster asked here is: "Can a True Prophet of God Be Wrong"? The answer is a clear and emphatic NO!

DT

[Jeshurun]

I don&#39;t think anyone here believes for one moment that Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses or any of their leadership have ever been a prophet of God. JW&#39;s certainly deny prophecying, in spite of their many failed predictions. But the point is this ... a true prophet of God can never be wrong when the message he proclaims comes from Jehovah himself. The prophet may be wrong in other matters, such as Jonah was when he was corrected by Jehovah, but the message Jonah proclaimed from God was not wrong. The Bible gives a clear distinction between a true prophet and a false prophet, but the question the original poster asked here is: "Can a True Prophet of God Be Wrong"? The answer is a clear and emphatic NO!

DT[/b]

I agree, DT. I was being facetious. But the scriptures do say that a prophet can be "fooled" by Jehovah. I&#39;m pretty sure who he had in mind. If they&#39;re capable of "double divination", they must be prophesying, in spite of their denying being prophets.

Agape
Lou

[Molly]

This is what I was talking about when I said that there is a marked difference between inspired prophecy and interpretive prophecy.

I think I alluded to it in my earlier post, but the Society seems to have fallen victim to the perceived delaying on the part of the arrival of that day, because they now "beat" their fellow slaves into submission, using failed interpretations like 1914 and 1919 as a litmus test for loyalty and approved association with other Witnesses.

FWIW,
Thomas[/b]

I agree with you Thomas, that there is a huge difference between inspired prophesy and interpretive prophecy. Ezekial, Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, etc. are prophets. Simply to interpret the word of God by means of events, comparisons, archeology, historical analysis, or any other method is not of itself prophesy. Each of us here have added our 2 cents worth to the mix. I don&#39;t consider myself a prophet.

I think that the difference lies with how the message is presented, such as was noted that the WTS considers themselves the "Jeremiah class." With the WTS, their interpretation is held in the same esteem as the Bible&#39;s prophets and regarded by the Society and those receiving the interpretation as of identical value with the Scriptures, actually they have been in many cases raised higher than the Scriptures. Their interpretations have been elevated far beyond their actual value. In other words, they have become infallible and beyond question. It has resulted in an idolotrous relationship between the Society and adherents. Probably that is why Ezekial 14:10 says, "10And they will have to bear their error. The error of the inquirer will prove to be just the same as the error of the prophet." That&#39;s why they qualify as "false prophets."

Robert&#39;s interpretations of the prophecies make much sense, but is anyone here going to accord them the same value as the Scriptures themselves? I don&#39;t think so. As the system moves on to the end, we may need to revise some of our thinking as new information becomes available. I simply don&#39;t think comparing scriptures and publishing one&#39;s findings could be considered prophesy.

And that&#39;s my 2 cents.

Molly

[James]

Hey Molly,

You took the words out of my mouth...

Prophecy,by definition,as it applies to the bible, to me means divine inspiration. God-breathed thoughts. Which of the Prophets claimed that title by interpreting other Prophets from the holy writings?
Even demonic fore-telling or divination was demon inspired.

Jesus foretold for our day "“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them.
Who are these false prophets? Mostly, they are the religious leaders who claim God spoke to them in a dream, yeah, the t.v. evangelists that &#39;had a chat with god the other day&#39; -divine inspiration.
Even Joseph Smith claimed divine inspiation for the book of mormon.
These are the false prophets in sheeps&#39; covering.

Now you say if there are false prophets among us, then there must be true prophets, right? Not necessarily.
As Jeshurun brought out in his post regarding the prophet Joel -“And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see. 29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.
30 “And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah."

As we see this occurs when? In the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah which is yet to come. Also take note of how they will prophesy &#39;I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh&#39;. So Jehovahs&#39; spirit is what impels them to prophesy! Their words are from Jehovahs&#39; mouth to their brains.

" I simply don&#39;t think comparing scriptures and publishing one&#39;s findings could be considered prophesy." (quote from Molly) I agree.
Brother Russell and the WTS&#39;s prediction for 1914 was not based on a claimed &#39;divine inspiration&#39;, but on a dilligent study of the scriptures and a zeal for Gods&#39; word.


Brotherly love,
James

[billy]

Hey Molly,

You took the words out of my mouth...

Prophecy,by definition,as it applies to the bible, to me means divine inspiration. God-breathed thoughts. Which of the Prophets claimed that title by interpreting other Prophets from the holy writings?
Even demonic fore-telling or divination was demon inspired.

Jesus foretold for our day ""Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep&#39;s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them.
Who are these false prophets? Mostly, they are the religious leaders who claim God spoke to them in a dream, yeah, the t.v. evangelists that &#39;had a chat with god the other day&#39; -divine inspiration.
Even Joseph Smith claimed divine inspiation for the book of mormon.
These are the false prophets in sheeps&#39; covering.

Now you say if there are false prophets among us, then there must be true prophets, right? Not necessarily.
As Jeshurun brought out in his post regarding the prophet Joel -"And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see. 29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.
30 "And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah."

As we see this occurs when? In the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah which is yet to come. Also take note of how they will prophesy &#39;I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh&#39;. So Jehovahs&#39; spirit is what impels them to prophesy! Their words are from Jehovahs&#39; mouth to their brains.

" I simply don&#39;t think comparing scriptures and publishing one&#39;s findings could be considered prophesy." (quote from Molly) I agree.
Brother Russell and the WTS&#39;s prediction for 1914 was not based on a claimed &#39;divine inspiration&#39;, but on a dilligent study of the scriptures and a zeal for Gods&#39; word.


Brotherly love,
James[/b]


well said brother James :applaudit:

[vonstauffenberg]

The bibel talks about testing inspired expression to see if it comes from God, and if it does not, then it must be rejected. But jesus and the prophets of old did not speak of their originality, but of the one that had sent them, and I have seen some that speak from their own disposition...i dont know why and you get the feeling how could jehovah allow that. But the bibel says, hold fast to what is fine, and if we read the bibel and believe its from jehovah and ask for his spirit on a question, he will reveal it to us all.