More Trouble In "spiritual Paradise"

[watchman]

Just posted this blood-boiler on the News Blog (http://jehovahs-witnesses-news.blogspot.com/2007/08/judge-cuts-serial-child-attacking.html)

[DoubtingThomas]

On the surface, this article in The Guardian certainly appears to be reporting another case of injustice in the legal system. But everyone here knows how the main stream media is only interested in selling papers, and they do that how? - by sensationalizing. That may not be the case her. Perhaps the facts are being accurately reported. None the less, none of us here are in a postion to personally know. And I am always a DoubtingThomas, weither I read it in the papers, the Watchtower publications, or even here on this board. Always keep an open mind and remember there are two sides to everything. We usually only hear one side. This judge heard two sides. Maybe the case was not cracked up to be what the media reported. But this may also be a case of a poor judge who is himself a pedophile wanting to keep other pedophiles out of jail so that they can molest more children at every possibly opportunity. Who knows?

DT

[Jinnvisible]

Without specific regard to this case, the prison system in the U.K. is in a state of overcrowding. It might be part of the reason that judges are reluctant to pass prison sentences.

It is also a political-economic situation which means if overcrowding issues did figure into thier general decsion making they proberbley wouldn`t admitt to it.

All of that on top of the fact that thier are cranky judges and disparative crime and punishment ratios.

[watchman]

Without specific regard to this case, the prison system in the U.K. is in a state of overcrowding. It might be part of the reason that judges are reluctant to pass prison sentences.

It is also a political-economic situation which means if overcrowding issues did figure into thier general decsion making they proberbley wouldn`t admitt to it.

All of that on top of the fact that thier are cranky judges and disparative crime and punishment ratios.[/b]

Hmmm. Perhaps the UK should take a page from the old Empire's playbook and start shipping criminals off to Australia's Outback again. Or better yet, send them to Iraq!

Watchman

[billy]

<div class='quotemain'>Without specific regard to this case, the prison system in the U.K. is in a state of overcrowding. It might be part of the reason that judges are reluctant to pass prison sentences.

It is also a political-economic situation which means if overcrowding issues did figure into thier general decsion making they proberbley wouldn`t admitt to it.

All of that on top of the fact that thier are cranky judges and disparative crime and punishment ratios.</span>[/b]

Hmmm. Perhaps the UK should take a page from the old Empire&#39;s playbook and start shipping criminals off to Australia&#39;s Outback again. Or better yet, send them to Iraq!

Watchman
[/b][/quote]


<span style="color:#ff0000">We have enough child molesters over here in Australia - dont think we need anymore

our govenments repsonse to child molesters within the Aboriginal communities now is to send in the army and take over their territories

it appears the justice systems all over the world are breaking down - law and order is being contaminated with western societies lack of boundries

i&#39;ve watched a few of the O&#39;Reily programs where he exposes the judges light sentencing of child molesters in America

therepy programs for this problem sound like a good idea - you&#39;d think they would be provided to the persons in jail - while the person is sent to jail to protect the children from further attacts

[Jinnvisible]

Hmmm. Perhaps the UK should take a page from the old Empire&#39;s playbook and start shipping criminals off to Australia&#39;s Outback again. Or better yet, send them to Iraq!

Watchman[/b]

True enough billy, sounds like the Aus goverment has gotten hold of a copy of the old Empires play book.

[billy]

The bizzare thing about our governments policies with the Aboriginal community is in all the media reporting of the problems in the Aboriginal communities of abuse and alcholism they forget to mention that our whole society has this problem, not just the Aboriginals

I&#39;m caucasin - both my parents were alcholoics - my ex husbands parents were alcholics - my ex husband was violent and abusive, an alcholic and drug abuser - I never saw the army show up at my door to take him away!- Our young caucasin people are constantly in the news for alcohol related bad behavoir

It must be a hypocritical trait with organizations - religeous and political

[Berean]

I found a quote in this Guardian article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2155269,00.html) (I assume it&#39;s okay to post the link, if not, let me know please):

The church said yesterday it would support him. But it denied claims by Porter&#39;s sister that he would continue to come into contact with children through his religion and visit families.

A spokesman said: "He will be carefully supervised."

If this is true, I can only wonder... how can you support someone like that? He should be excommunicated!

[watchman]

I found a quote in this Guardian article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2155269,00.html) (I assume it&#39;s okay to post the link, if not, let me know please):

The church said yesterday it would support him. But it denied claims by Porter&#39;s sister that he would continue to come into contact with children through his religion and visit families.

A spokesman said: "He will be carefully supervised."

If this is true, I can only wonder... how can you support someone like that? He should be excommunicated![/b]

No doubt this "monster," as his own sister called him, is allowed to go door to door as long as he is accompanied by another JW -- that&#39;s the WT&#39;s official policy. The public has no say in the matter, as to whether they want an admitted or even convicted pedophile knocking on their door. As I have stated elsewhere, apparently householders are supposed to feel secure in the knowledge that only one of the "ministers" at their door is a child rapist. The lawyers at Bethel evidently think they are being responsible by requiring pedophiles to have a chaparone while out in service.

Paul advised Christians not to become sharers in the sins of others. Apparently, though, his congregation and the Society is more than happy to share in his guilt before God.

The watchtower is just asking for it.

Watchtman

[Nambo]

Wouldnt be the first Judge to be a member of a child sex ring, but I wonder what the societies excuse is?

So according to the society, if you question thier involvement with the United Nations, or innocently point out all the satanic images in the societies literature, thats a sin serious enough to be disfellowshipped for, ie, anything that critisises them, but rape a small child, thats not so bad.

Are they really worshipping the same God as the rest of us?

[billy]

Are they really worshipping the same God as the rest of us?

thats a very good question???? :Yahoo_33:

[stayawake]

[quote]


What was upsetting to me is that the GB knowingly made us a sharer in her sins. There were 66 Awakes to be distributed in those ten years of their being a NGO.
Six Awakes were required each year in giving reconition to the good works of the UN.

The WT agreed to this NGO requirment, knowing that we were under their strong influence enough that we would never notice.
Keep in mind that mag was dedicated to bring out the blessings from the Messianic Kingdom.

Sad to say they were right, we went out into the ministry with the Awakes and did what satan wanted us to do. He had ten years of glee with us.
Yes we are quilty , and like one brother brought out he has prayed for forgiveness
Yes we were ignorent, but whos fault was that ???

Yes again the WT is asking for it .
Jah is not one to be mocked.
Thank God that though we were blind , NOW we can see.
The Light is not there anymore.

love stayawake

[NEW HEART]

Hi Stay Awake,

Thats interesting that you said this...."What was upsetting to me is that the GB knowingly made us a sharer in her sins. There were 66 Awakes to be distributed in those ten years of their being a NGO.
Six Awakes were required each year in giving reconition to the good works of the UN."


I didnt know that. Thats really strange that those are the numbers. The number of the beast..666. How can there be such a coincidence as that? If this is correct, than do you find this strange that they distributed this number of Awakes riding the Beast&#39;s back till they were discovered?

New Heart

[dgibson]

<div class='quotemain'>I found a quote in this Guardian article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2155269,00.html) (I assume it&#39;s okay to post the link, if not, let me know please):

The church said yesterday it would support him. But it denied claims by Porter&#39;s sister that he would continue to come into contact with children through his religion and visit families.

A spokesman said: "He will be carefully supervised."

If this is true, I can only wonder... how can you support someone like that? He should be excommunicated![/b]

No doubt this "monster," as his own sister called him, is allowed to go door to door as long as he is accompanied by another JW -- that&#39;s the WT&#39;s official policy. The public has no say in the matter, as to whether they want an admitted or even convicted pedophile knocking on their door. As I have stated elsewhere, apparently householders are supposed to feel secure in the knowledge that only one of the "ministers" at their door is a child rapist. The lawyers at Bethel evidently think they are being responsible by requiring pedophiles to have a chaparone while out in service.

Paul advised Christians not to become sharers in the sins of others. Apparently, though, his congregation and the Society is more than happy to share in his guilt before God.

The watchtower is just asking for it.

Watchtman
[/b][/quote]

Well, I admit that I&#39;m not up to speed on all of this situation. I do want balance to be on this board, so I ask, what would you do different? How, exactly is the WTBTS a sharing in this mans sins? And What happened to freely forgiving wrongdoers for their sins?

I guess if this man is showing remorse, and is seeking help, then why would the WTBTS be under obligation to turn him away?

I admit to never having any children. I don&#39;t know what, or how I would feel if I found out a man like this was messing around with my child. I think I would fell like most of you all.

Being a pet owner though, and loving animals like I do, I do know How I my feelings are towards scum bags like Michael Vick, and his known helpers in the way they treated/trained and executed the many Pit bull dogs for their money/excitment raising fights.

And I would imagine it would not be much different then the way you parents feel towards these pedifiles.


I wonder though, which is different? Or is their any difference?

The person being preyed upon by pedifiles, gets a free pass to paradise through the resurrrection, and all wounds will be completely reversed and healed.

Those poor suffering animals, will not have such a opportunity, other than to be another soul witness to Jehovah, of the gross mistreatment recieved by these evil men, and the display of true lack of repect for Jehovahs valuable creation he placed on earth under our subjection.

I guess, I have to be careful, to not let myself judge people&#39;s misdeeds. I instead need to focus the blame on satan&#39;s crooked system of thing&#39;s.

Its this system of things, that I hope is replaced before I get too sick of hearing yet one more way someone has figured out how to be the most evil, no good evil doer on the earth and in the news.

[watchman]

Well, I admit that I&#39;m not up to speed on all of this situation. I do want balance to be on this board, so I ask, what would you do different? How, exactly is the WTBTS a sharing in this mans sins? And What happened to freely forgiving wrongdoers for their sins?

I guess if this man is showing remorse, and is seeking help, then why would the WTBTS be under obligation to turn him away?[/b]

There have been tens of thousands of JW&#39;s disfellowshipped for comparatively trivial things like smoking, taking a blood transfusion, celebrating holidays or even simply talking to a disfellowshipped person. Then there is a guy who preys upon infants and young boys over a period of 14 years, all the while using his standing in the congregation as a trusted ministerial servant to gain access to his victims, and yet the news reports say the congregation is standing by him?

According to this news report (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007390418,00.html)the guy went to a few months of "rehabilitation." And that is supposed to have cured him of his wicked perversion? Why would the congregation disfellowship someone who takes a puff off a fag, which hurts no one but themself, and show "mercy" to a predator like this Porter creep? That&#39;s not mercy. The Society and the elders always say that their first responsibility is protecting the congregation. Okay, fine. So, how is the congregation being protected by allowing a guy like that to continue on in their midst?

Not only that, why would the Society allow known child predators to go knocking on people&#39;s doors in the community? That is crazy! Using your dog analogy, if you had a pit bull that had already killed other dogs and mauled young children would you take it on a walk through a crowded playground area, even on a leash? That would be irresponsible wouldn&#39;t it? A borderline criminal act, I would think.

Lawmakers in the United States are now requiring convicted sex offenders to make their presence known in a community. But here&#39;s the Society, in their wisdom, allowing known child abusers to secretly go into a neighborhood and walk up on the householder&#39;s porch and knock on their door, knowing that often times parents send their children to answer the door. And the parents have no idea that the guy at their door is a pedo. Apparently Bethel&#39;s lawyers feel that it is none of the householder&#39;s business who they send to their door. Okay, so you want to talk about love? Where is the love of neighbor? Are householders supposed to feel indebted to us just because only one of the pair of guys at their door is a criminal?

People who deal with sex offenders generally agree that pedophiles are irreformable. Some may stop abusing kids but given the right circumstances they will revert to type. That&#39;s the reality. Then there is the matter of bringing reproach on the name of God. This story has been reported on in all the press in the UK. The question is, if the general public is outraged why is the congregation standing behind this creep? If it is untrue, if the press has gotten the story wrong, which wouldn&#39;t be the first time, where is the Society&#39;s spokesman? Why doesn&#39;t Paul Gillies speak up and assure the public that the congregation is not standing behind this "monster"? Their silence speaks for itself.

That&#39;s how the Society has become a sharer in this man&#39;s sin --by their stupidly supporting a man who&#39;s sins are publicly known.

Watchman

[barry]

There was an incident in France just a couple of days ago for a French pedo who was freed from prison after 27 years for child abuse.
He had to follow a program to help preventing him from recidivism.
Already a couple of days after release from prison he abused a 5 year old boy.
So, this just shows how fast someone can get back to his old habits. 27 years of prison and a couple of days later again.

This scandal is a big issue since the police found viagra with him, prescribed by the jail doctor.

But this just shows that this is correct

People who deal with sex offenders generally agree that pedophiles are irreformable.[/b]

[James]

The person being preyed upon by pedifiles, gets a free pass to paradise through the resurrrection, and all wounds will be completely reversed and healed.[/b]

It doesn&#39;t work that way. I&#39;ve heard other horror stories like that, where a mother kills all her children so they will go straight to heaven. Each will be judged-even victims-even children.

James

[dgibson]

watchman wrote:


"There have been tens of thousands of JW&#39;s disfellowshipped for comparatively trivial things like smoking, taking a blood transfusion, celebrating holidays or even simply talking to a disfellowshipped person. Then there is a guy who preys upon infants and young boys over a period of 14 years, all the while using his standing in the congregation as a trusted ministerial servant to gain access to his victims, and yet the news reports say the congregation is standing by him? "

As you said, "news report" that says it all. Now are we to think that sexual sins are any less or more of a sin than idolatry, or worshipping a foreign god? Now, the act of forcing sex unto an individual, is violence. I just can&#39;t see him forcing himself unto an individual at the door out in service, with another brother with him.

"According to this news report (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007390418,00.html)the guy went to a few months of "rehabilitation." And that is supposed to have cured him of his wicked perversion? Why would the congregation disfellowship someone who takes a puff off a fag, which hurts no one but themself, and show "mercy" to a predator like this Porter creep? That&#39;s not mercy. The Society and the elders always say that their first responsibility is protecting the congregation. Okay, fine. So, how is the congregation being protected by allowing a guy like that to continue on in their midst?"

The sad truth is, there is no guaranteed "rehabilitation" for anyone who has a problem, no matter what it is. Only the person who has the problem, can correct the mental defect to the best of their own ability, once given proper knowledge of how to do so. Getting the proper knowledge, in the right sequence, at the right time, by a professional counselor, is like trying to reprogram the computer that launches the space shuttle with only one programmer, in thirty minutes, three days a week segments. It would be a disaster, and thats why many people today are walking mental diasters waiting to happen. Why even the professional counselors, who rehabilitate people, have to go to their superior counselors for corrections in their way of thinking. So, who is it? That can throw that first stone at anyone who is breaking Jehovahs laws of behavior? Yes, I think the society is unbalanced in the way they execute their judgements of error, and discipline, but when you join an organization, you give them the power over you, for better or worse.

"Not only that, why would the Society allow known child predators to go knocking on people&#39;s doors in the community? That is crazy! Using your dog analogy, if you had a pit bull that had already killed other dogs and mauled young children would you take it on a walk through a crowded playground area, even on a leash? That would be irresponsible wouldn&#39;t it? A borderline criminal act, I would think."

My dog analogy, was only to display that I would be very capable of hating a person so much so, to in fact be able to murder such a perosn that would treat animals in such a fashion, as in the case of Michael Vicks. This how I can relate to the anger parents must feel toward those who prey on young children. But then, I realize, I must not Judge another person, harsh enough to murder him for his error. That would be wrong, would it not?

Now as to your anaolgy, dogs can&#39;t talk to us, and reason with us. So, there is no guaranteed rehabilitation with them either. They have to be put down, or caged up by their owners ,indefinitely at their owners expense. Now, how do you think people should be treated? Should they be put down? Locked up? and at who&#39;s expense? If they should be killed, then who should be the trigger puller, or stone thrower. Emotions are running very high about these sexual crimes against children, because of the media, and the signs of the times, but haven&#39;t they been happening for some 6,000 years? Yes, they used to be able to put to death those caught doing such a thing, but now we are under a different law. An satan is fueling the flames in these people, with all kinds of TV programs, and movies with sexual content. I&#39;m not making excuses for these people, I&#39;m just saying, don&#39;t get caught up in the extreme hatred being dished out unfairly to these people.


"Lawmakers in the United States are now requiring convicted sex offenders to make their presence known in a community. But here&#39;s the Society, in their wisdom, allowing known child abusers to secretly go into a neighborhood and walk up on the householder&#39;s porch and knock on their door, knowing that often times parents send their children to answer the door. And the parents have no idea that the guy at their door is a pedo. Apparently Bethel&#39;s lawyers feel that it is none of the householder&#39;s business who they send to their door. Okay, so you want to talk about love? Where is the love of neighbor? Are householders supposed to feel indebted to us just because only one of the pair of guys at their door is a criminal?"


The next person calling at your door, ask him to disclose all of his defects before continuing on with his sales pitch. Ask him if he has ever molested a child, or had sex outside of a marriage, or had any kind of experience in committing murder of a person. My point is, no one needs to know all of my confessions. The past is the past, and all I or anyone can do, is move toward being a valuable decent human being from this minute forward, and not repeat past mistakes. Now, is it the law, that a murderer register his presence in your neighborhood? No, because again, the sign of the times is, nothing gets more attention than "a child getting hurt or killed", or something has to be changed under the guise of "safety". There bad/dangerous intersections all over the cities, but until a huge accident, someone famous gets killed, or a bus load of children gets tee-boned from a stop sign runner/drunk, no lights or cameras get installed. The society with its rule on this person being escorted, is like installing a human camera, to make sure this person does behave correctly, and properly at the neighbors doorstep.

"People who deal with sex offenders generally agree that pedophiles are irreformable. Some may stop abusing kids but given the right circumstances they will revert to type. That&#39;s the reality. Then there is the matter of bringing reproach on the name of God. This story has been reported on in all the press in the UK. The question is, if the general public is outraged why is the congregation standing behind this creep? If it is untrue, if the press has gotten the story wrong, which wouldn&#39;t be the first time, where is the Society&#39;s spokesman? Why doesn&#39;t Paul Gillies speak up and assure the public that the congregation is not standing behind this "monster"? Their silence speaks for itself."

The congregation is standing behind him, because no one is without a flaw. No one can say they have not sinned against Jehovah. Just because you label him as a bigger monster than everyone else, is not reason enough for everyone to give up on him and cast him aside.




"That&#39;s how the Society has become a sharer in this man&#39;s sin --by their stupidly supporting a man who&#39;s sins are publicly known."

Not good enough, what about the known murderer, or drunk driver, who just happened to have killed someone in a driving accident, that person killed being a child, born or unborn? It is publicly known? Does that mean the society if it didn&#39;t disfellowship him, or ever reinstated him would be a sharer in his sin?

James wrote:

"It doesn&#39;t work that way. I&#39;ve heard other horror stories like that, where a mother kills all her children so they will go straight to heaven. Each will be judged-even victims-even children."

Your correct, I meant that the children now being defective by means of a gross sin from another person, (be it from another child, or an adult,) would be taken into deep consideration by Jehovah in his judgement, and he being a loving creator would probably make thees ones, exempt of many sins caused from this inflicted defect from another defective person.

[Jinnvisible]

I just can&#39;t see him forcing himself unto an individual at the door out in service, with another brother with him.[/b]

<div align="left">[/b]Matthew 18:6 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea</div>

[watchman]

As you said, "news report" that says it all. Now are we to think that sexual sins are any less or more of a sin than idolatry, or worshipping a foreign god? Now, the act of forcing sex unto an individual, is violence. I just can&#39;t see him forcing himself unto an individual at the door out in service, with another brother with him.[/b]

I am not suggesting that a pedophile would attack a child at the door. That&#39;s generally not how pedophiles operate. First they make friends and establish trust. Sending a pedophile to someone&#39;s door allows him that opportunity. Perhaps the pedophile will make a return visit. Maybe start a study. By allowing a known pedophile to participate in the ministry the Society is lending them a measure of respectabilty they do not deserve.



Now as to your anaolgy, dogs can&#39;t talk to us, and reason with us. So, there is no guaranteed rehabilitation with them either. They have to be put down, or caged up by their owners ,indefinitely at their owners expense. Now, how do you think people should be treated? Should they be put down? Locked up? and at who&#39;s expense? If they should be killed, then who should be the trigger puller, or stone thrower. Emotions are running very high about these sexual crimes against children, because of the media, and the signs of the times, but haven&#39;t they been happening for some 6,000 years? Yes, they used to be able to put to death those caught doing such a thing, but now we are under a different law. An satan is fueling the flames in these people, with all kinds of TV programs, and movies with sexual content. I&#39;m not making excuses for these people, I&#39;m just saying, don&#39;t get caught up in the extreme hatred being dished out unfairly to these people.[/b]

I am not talking about capital punishment. Disallowing a known child abuser from going out in service places no hardship on him. The Society&#39;s primary obligation is to make sure that a known sex offender does not have access to any more children. That&#39;s not such a hard thing to do.



The next person calling at your door, ask him to disclose all of his defects before continuing on with his sales pitch. Ask him if he has ever molested a child, or had sex outside of a marriage, or had any kind of experience in committing murder of a person. My point is, no one needs to know all of my confessions. The past is the past, and all I or anyone can do, is move toward being a valuable decent human being from this minute forward, and not repeat past mistakes.[/b]

The past is not the past with most sex offenders. They are notorious recividists.(?)That means they offend again and again, every chance they get. The Society requires two elders to screen every would-be publisher before ever they are permitted to become an unbaptized publisher. If for example, a person smokes, they cannot go out knocking on doors in the community representing the Watchtower. If their hair is too long they are not permitted to go preach. So, here is a guy who has sexually abused a couple dozen young boys and infants and they Society permits him to go door-to-door? Get real! The householder has every right to know what kind of persons the Watchtower is sending to their door.



the congregation is standing behind him, because no one is without a flaw. No one can say they have not sinned against Jehovah. Just because you label him as a bigger monster than everyone else, is not reason enough for everyone to give up on him and cast him aside.[/b]

I did not label him a "monster." The man is an admitted child absuer. Most people, even non JWs, recognize that adults who prey upon children are the scum of the earth. The congregation has authority to disfellowship persons who are wicked. It is their responsibilty to do so. Paul said remove the wicked man from your midst.


not good enough, what about the known murderer, or drunk driver, who just happened to have killed someone in a driving accident, that person killed being a child, born or unborn? It is publicly known? Does that mean the society if it didn&#39;t disfellowship him, or ever reinstated him would be a sharer in his sin?[/b]

Perhaps. Obviously, though, accidental homicide is not the same as a cuning predator who preys upon innocent children over many years, all the while hiding behind his religious veneer.

Watchman

[Shibboleth]

Why does the pedo have to go door to door? According to the Society there are a number of ways to Witness without having to go door to door. Telephone and letter writing come to mind. Also talking to co-workers counts.

I&#39;ll tell you one thing, if this happened in the US and the media got wind of it and also the town and citizens heard about it, there would be hell to pay. (This is concerning someone in the UK if I read correctly.)

"Hi I&#39;m Chris Hanson with Dateline NBC..."

[dgibson]

Watchman wrote:


"I did not label him a "monster." The man is an admitted child absuer. Most people, even non JWs, recognize that adults who prey upon children are the scum of the earth. The congregation has authority to disfellowship persons who are wicked. It is their responsibilty to do so. Paul said remove the wicked man from your midst."

Where does Paul say, that just the known pedoifiles are the most wicked vile persons of all, and they have no business going out working in the door to door ministry?

Isn&#39;t their more scriptures that encourage forgiveness of sins towards persons of a remorseful, repentant attitude? Even though they may sin again?

I guess, I need counsel as to the exact definition of a wicked vile person, as compared to those, that we should be forgiving up to, and beyond seventy-seven times.

I don&#39;t understand why you are helping feed into this media frenzy elevating the pedofiles above the other gross sinners who have the potential to do persons harm, whether it be a child, or an adult?

Why is it you believe in the congregations authority, to govern those who choose to be within its walls of authority, yet when it becomes a matter of disclosing everyone&#39;s sins to the congregations members, or to the public authorities, you allow them to sway back and forth about what should be let known, and what should not, according to how it will publicly affect the worlds perception of the whole organization, rather than the safety of those within its walls and in its community? The very same organization, that which you have proven to be defective in its own group thinking in so many ways?

A sin is a sin, and all things are going to be recorded, judged, and repaired to new conditions in the coming new kingdom. Jehovah will not let any transgression go unpunished, as well as those victims will be rewarded for their suffering. I know Jehovah will deal out Justice to everyone according to their deeds.

Second guessing the society about this news matter, is feeding the silent lambs agenda, to have all the records of child molestation released to the public authorities, so the victims can seek monetary damages against the WTBTS. I&#39;m not against releasing the info, but I&#39;m against the separate treatment of those who have commit those violations, from those who have committed sins against another brother or sister. Release all the info., and don&#39;t withhold committee meeting secrets anymore. If someone goes into the little room, or library for something, tell everyone the next day. How about that, or stop being the peoples sin police, for they have no power to forgive them anyway.

[Jinnvisible]

Isn&#39;t their more scriptures that encourage forgiveness of sins towards persons of a remorseful, repentant attitude? Even though they may sin again?

I guess, I need counsel as to the exact definition of a wicked vile person, as compared to those, that we should be forgiving up to, and beyond seventy-seven times........

A sin is a sin, and all things are going to be recorded, judged, and repaired to new conditions in the coming new kingdom. Jehovah will not let any transgression go unpunished, as well as those victims will be rewarded for their suffering. I know Jehovah will deal out Justice to everyone according to their deeds.............[/b]

Jesus is giving counsel that a person should commit suicide. Now ask yourself have you ever seen Jesus give counsel like that anywhere else ? This is specifically given for sins against children. If you can find a more devastating piece of direction from Christ`s own words then I might conceed that there is a more serious sin. If you cannot then as far as i can see the conclusions are drawn for you.</span></div>
</span>

[watchman]

Where does Paul say, that just the known pedoifiles are the most wicked vile persons of all, and they have no business going out working in the door to door ministry?[/b]

Hi Gib

Paul didn&#39;t write anything specifically regarding pedophiles. However, there are Bible principles that ought to come into play. Take, for example, the Mosaic Law regarding how, if a man who owned a bull that was known to have the tendency to gore and the owner took no action to prevent the bull from hurting others, and the bull ended up killing someone, then the owner was to be put to death.

Of course, I am not suggesting that we are under the Law, but that ancient law establishes a principle; a principle of responsibility towards one&#39;s community and individual accountability.

As I have already pointed out, the Society has absolute control over who can and who cannot represent them out in service. They seemingly take their responsibilty seriously when it comes to screening prospective publishers. However, when it comes to allowing known abusers to go out and contact unsuspecting householders the Society is obviously missing the mark. Will it take an outrageous sexual crime to bring them to heel?


Isn&#39;t their more scriptures that encourage forgiveness of sins towards persons of a remorseful, repentant attitude? Even though they may sin again?[/b]

There is such a thing as congregational forgivness and individual forgiveness. But the bottom line is: The victims of pedophiles should be the ones who choose whether to extend their forgiveness or not. The Society and the elder&#39;s are not the victims. And disallowing a pedophile from going out in service is not showing a lack of mercy. They simply are not qualified.

In the case of sexual predators, the organization&#39;s main responsibilty ought to be to protect the children of the community and the congregation from being victimized. Extending mercy might be the absolute worse thing for all concerned.


I guess, I need counsel as to the exact definition of a wicked vile person, as compared to those, that we should be forgiving up to, and beyond seventy-seven times.[/b]

Mercy is a beautiful thing. If you have been the victim of sexual assault and the victimizer begs for your forgiveness, then you have the option of forgiving him. But not every victim may be inclined to forgive. Even Jehovah at times chooses not to forgive. But, again, the congregation should give the greatest emphasis to making sure that pedophiles do not abuse again. Disfellowshipping might be the most effective guarantee.


I don&#39;t understand why you are helping feed into this media frenzy elevating the pedofiles above the other gross sinners who have the potential to do persons harm, whether it be a child, or an adult?[/b]

What other gross sinners are you referring to? Can you give specifics? Because, in this case the guy&#39;s name and face is out there for the public to see. This is a real situation, not some hypothetical -- "what if?"


Why is it you believe in the congregation&#39;s authority to govern those who choose to be within its walls of authority, yet when it becomes a matter of disclosing everyone&#39;s sins to the congregations members, or to the public authorities, you allow them to sway back and forth about what should be let known, and what should not, according to how it will publicly affect the world&#39;s perception of the whole organization, rather than the safety of those within its walls and in its community? The very same organization, that which you have proven to be defective in its own group thinking in so many ways?[/b]

You seem to be saying that the sins of pedophiles ought to be kept under wraps. That is also the way the Society has operated over the years. However, that is not the way the universe operates. Paul wrote: "The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men their sins also become manifest later."

We don&#39;t know how this guy&#39;s sins became public, but the congregation&#39;s dealings with him are now in the public spotlight due to the fact that his crimes have been taken up by the state. That highlights why Paul told Timothy not to lay his hands hastily on any man or become a sharer in his sins.


Second guessing the society about this news matter, is feeding the silent lambs agenda, to have all the records of child molestation released to the public authorities, so the victims can seek monetary damages against the WTBTS. I&#39;m not against releasing the info, but I&#39;m against the separate treatment of those who have commit those violations, from those who have committed sins against another brother or sister. Release all the info., and don&#39;t withhold committee meeting secrets anymore. If someone goes into the little room, or library for something, tell everyone the next day. How about that, or stop being the peoples sin police, for they have no power to forgive them anyway.[/b]

No one is "second guessing the Society." There really isn&#39;t any guess work involved. The WT has a history dating back many, many years. They have a recognizable modus operandi. They have a well-honed policy in place that indisputably places the financial well being and reputation of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society above the welfare of children. This is just the latest case that demonstrates where their priorities are placed -- or mis-placed, as the case may be.

The organization will be judged by their treatment of the disadvantaged and the weak. As you surely know, Jehovah places the highest priority, not upon our extending sympathy and sucor to dangerous predators, but upon our treatment of the widows and orphans. Unfortunately, it appears as if protecting the proverbial widows and orphans is pretty far down on the Society&#39;s priority list.

Watchman

[dgibson]

1Cr 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.



I end this discussion with the law we are under today, as people in hope of a promised living on a paradise earth, with no more mental illnesses.

[Jeshurun]

Dear dgibson

I don&#39;t think any of us knows what kind of defect causes this kind of behavior. Is it warped DNA, insanity, or just plain wickedness? Only Jehovah can judge. But that isn&#39;t the point. No one is condemning these people to Gehenna. It&#39;s a question of a religious organization&#39;s responsibility to ensure that a known pedophile cannot hide behind the cloak of "minister" in order to have opportunities to pounce upon.

The Watchtower is now showing the world that they are no different, in fact worse, than the clergymen of Christendom. They do this in Jehovah&#39;s name, and they&#39;re making housecalls. It&#39;s one thing to have your kid subjected to pedophiles at church. It&#39;s another thing for the church to send the pedophile to your front door. This seems to be the legacy that Watchtower Inc. is leaving for themselves.

How do you think Jehovah feels about the fact that you can now use any search engine, type in "Jehovah" and "child abuse", and fill up endless pages of gut-wrenching information?

[watchman]

1Cr 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NKJV#)

1Cr 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.



I end this discussion with the law we are under today, as people in hope of a promised living on a paradise earth, with no more mental illnesses.[/b]

You want to talk about love, do you? Why is it that whenever a pedophile abuse case comes to light there is always a rush to comfort and support the abuser and justify the Society&#39;s negligence? The Wt never puts the victims in the fore-front --NEVER! Neither do the elders. The abusers certainly don&#39;t. This latest pervert made no public apology to his numerous victims. Always, ALWAYS, the abused are on the bottom of the list. Where is the love in that? When are Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses going to stand up and defend the defenseless and stop blabbering about showing love to child-raping perverts?

Watchman

[billy]

The sad truth is, there is no guaranteed "rehabilitation" for anyone who has a problem, no matter what it is. Only the person who has the problem, can correct the mental defect to the best of their own ability, once given proper knowledge of how to do so. Getting the proper knowledge, in the right sequence, at the right time, by a professional counselor, is like trying to reprogram the computer that launches the space shuttle with only one programmer, in thirty minutes, three days a week segments. It would be a disaster, and thats why many people today are walking mental diasters waiting to happen. Why even the professional counselors, who rehabilitate people, have to go to their superior counselors for corrections in their way of thinking. So, who is it? That can throw that first stone at anyone who is breaking Jehovahs laws of behavior? Yes, I think the society is unbalanced in the way they execute their judgements of error, and discipline, but when you join an organization, you give them the power over you, for better or worse.

the child molester is a practicer - if there was effective treatment and the person could be cured and the molester didnt practice the abohorant behavior then he may be given more freedom - just like the murderer - if a murder practices murdering children and adults then he would have to be removed from society and then be given treatment while incarcerated - to protect society these damaging individuals must be isolated

The next person calling at your door, ask him to disclose all of his defects before continuing on with his sales pitch. Ask him if he has ever molested a child, or had sex outside of a marriage, or had any kind of experience in committing murder of a person. My point is, no one needs to know all of my confessions. The past is the past, and all I or anyone can do, is move toward being a valuable decent human being from this minute forward, and not repeat past mistakes. Now, is it the law, that a murderer register his presence in your neighborhood? No, because again, the sign of the times is, nothing gets more attention than "a child getting hurt or killed", or something has to be changed under the guise of "safety". There bad/dangerous intersections all over the cities, but until a huge accident, someone famous gets killed, or a bus load of children gets tee-boned from a stop sign runner/drunk, no lights or cameras get installed. The society with its rule on this person being escorted, is like installing a human camera, to make sure this person does behave correctly, and properly at the neighbors do

theres a very big difference between being careless or just a plain accident which may hurt others and intentionally damaging and hurting others - I think thats where people get confused with Jesus words about judging one another - because He further expresses the idea that we must judge people by their fruits to watch out for levan etc. - it&#39;s balance in judgement we must have - we cant let a murderer go running around murdering people continuosly and say -Oh i cant judge him because i have commited sins too - thats rediculous

[dgibson]

Just a quick note to say after considering all things said, I believe a big thank you is in order to Jinn, and EW for straightening my thinking out on this matter.

You both shine on this board with deep wisdom and understanding, and Jehovahs holy spirit shining through both of you is very much evident.

I too, NOW, believe that the WTBTS is totally asleep on this one, and at its real everyday guardianship over their volunteer sheep.

PLEASE, except my apologies.

Love and Affection to both for you

Dgibson

[DoubtingThomas]

This topic is an emotionally "hot button" one for all of us here on this board. It should be. I too have been effected by this horrible crime (as a victim) in a way that I will never share on this board in any kind of detail. Nor will I share it on any other board for that manner. But I can still find it in my heart to have forgiveness for other sinners. I will never cast the first stone. But I see many others here doing that very thing. Every normal sane person hates a pedophile or anyone who harms a small innocent child in any way whatsoever. But only God (and His son) can judge these perverts. But it seems that some here want to play God and condemn them from trying to repent of there sins and try to continue on as one of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. If I had this sickness (pedophilia), which I most certainly do not, I would still want my brothers and sisters, and most importantly God and His son, to give me just one more chance!

DT

[Viking]

pedophile crime is the most detestasble thing, a perverted sexuality. The monsters have their joy and destruct the life of a child. Did the monster ever ask himself how a victim of his abuse will spend his future?

No, he only thinks in pleasure and his sexual satisfaction.

I cant understand that the WTS encourages those evildoers to go into the ministry. Is it their greed for more publishers? Is it their menaing that the monster gets healed?

I know that always when the CO came he motivated the elders to bring a father before the judicial committee whne he had gone to the attorney. That went so over years.

And suddenly, about in 2002 there was a letter read in the elderschool, that elders might nobody hold back when he goes to the prosecutor.

why that change of 180°? Of course because the WT had in the meantime notified that their former policy is tooooo much expensive, they loos money and public reputation.

Now they are for going to the police - after decades of ignorance. And there was nowhere any apologize.

And in the print media of the WT they shine in fine glance as if they ever were doing everything agaist this crime.

there is no confession of any guilt. That is typical for WTS. They ignore their own errarum.

I remember how they reported over the former German branch overseer Balzereit. IN the WT Balzereit was guilty to have falsiefied the creepy letter to Mr. Hitler. Balzereit was fired by Rutherford and after WW" he came back to the German Bethel and Knorr fired him again. And all the literature accused him to be wicked. Balzereit the evil guy who was the ram for Rutherford. within his generation he was slammed by the WT. And when they all had disappeared by death, in the Holocuast AWAKE from 1998 there you can read on small sentence: he was innocence, not guilty in regard to all the accusations.

Those in the ivory tower knew it over all the 65 years, over the time of a human life and they kept it silent.

Those responsible officers will have their harvest. The teach water and drink wine.

I diont want to know how much the Watchtower payed for the 16 victims who made with the WT an agreement outside the court. When the catholic church payed for 660 viticms 660 Mio $ the WT perhaps payed much more. Rumors mean that the values of the sold properties in Crooklyn were payed for them.

the little on has to confess. The big one puts under the rug. And when you walk thereon the dirt comes out and all see it.

shame onto the kinks of the shame

[watchman]

This topic is an emotionally "hot button" one for all of us here on this board. It should be. I too have been effected by this horrible crime (as a victim) in a way that I will never share on this board in any kind of detail. Nor will I share it on any other board for that manner. But I can still find it in my heart to have forgiveness for other sinners. I will never cast the first stone. But I see many others here doing that very thing. Every normal sane person hates a pedophile or anyone who harms a small innocent child in any way whatsoever. But only God (and His son) can judge these perverts. But it seems that some here want to play God and condemn them from trying to repent of there sins and try to continue on as one of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. If I had this sickness (pedophilia), which I most certainly do not, I would still want my brothers and sisters, and most importantly God and His son, to give me just one more chance!

DT[/b]


I am all for showing mercy to sinners too. For instance, having the elders go see a JW pedophile in prison would be a merciful thing to do. Re-instating a disfellowshipped pedophile after a reasonable period might be a form of mercy.

It is the Society&#39;s and congregation&#39;s responsibilty to deal with such things. It is not playing God to act in behalf of abused indiviuals and take measures to prevent predatory individuals from having access to more vitcims. It is what God expects overseers to do.

By the way, according to Silentlambs this latest criminal was apparently an elder and a "trustee" of one of the Society&#39;s legal corporations in the UK. He lived a double life for over a decade. Obviously, he did not take a false step before he was aware of it. He engaged in a deliberate course of deception and no doubt still is. Showing "mercy" to a cunning predator like that is not real mercy. It is sharing in the sins of others.

Watchman

[Jinnvisible]

Every normal sane person hates a pedophile or anyone who harms a small innocent child in any way whatsoever. But only God (and His son) can judge these perverts. But it seems that some here want to play God and condemn them from trying to repent of there sins and try to continue on as one of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses.[/b]

Even in a spiritual paradise there are actions and consiquences.</span></div>
</span></span>

[Jeshurun]

It seems that the Apostle Paul was addressing a similar problem in the first century, in his letter to the Romans. From the context it seems that he was particularly referring to the Pharisees. He said:

18 For God&#39;s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world&#39;s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God,they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. 22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things.

24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but consent with those practicing them.

There is a "holy book" which condones such vile things. From it&#39;s teachings, Kabbalistic Freemasonry is derived. It&#39;s become quite evident that we have such devil-worshipping Freemasons residing within the Phariseeic leadership at Bethel.

The Talmud&#39;s teachings on sexual matters are especially revealing in light of the recent explosion of sexually explicit material which on every hand, as everyone knows, gets more revolting by the day. Coupled with the universal admission of control of the pornography, media and entertainment industries, it is promoted thru "education", television, movies, etc. The root cause comes into focus. Pedophilia and sodomy are Talmudic favorites:

Sanhedrin 55b: "It is permitted to have sexual intercourse with a girl three years and one day old."

(Sexual relations with three year olds are clearly permitted also in: Yebamoth 12a, 57b, 60b; Abodah Zarah 37a; and Kethuboth 39a.)

Yebamoth 59b: "Though the hire of a harlot may not be given to God, yet if the harlot is paid for bestiality [sex with an animal], her money may be accepted ."

Sanhedrin 54b: "If a man commits sodomy with a boy less than nine years old, they are not guilty of sodomy."

Sanhedrin 59b: "Sexual intercourse with a boy less than eight years old is not fornication."

Kethoboth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a girl less than three is nothing."


This very much reminds me of "the disgusting things of the earth".



[b]

[dgibson]

Deleted by author.dgibson

[dgibson]

Deleted by author. DGibson

[Obedience]

I am new to this forum. I have read all the responses in the section,"Child Sexual Abuse Among Jehovah&#39;s Witness." I have experienced the pain firsthand of having my own sons being a victim of molestation by a baptized member of the congregation that was in good standing and loved by his congregation. He was my husband at the time(MY children were from a previous marriage. ) We are now divorced. It is such a long heart wrenching story I don&#39;t know where to begin But I can tell you this. The elders in his congregation set out to have me disfellowshipped for slander for bringing up the charges against him. They called my children liars who were 4 years old and 6 years old at the time, I was talked about by numerous people in his hall and the new one I moved to by many brothers and sisters(they all supported him), they refused to believe the pyschiatrist, school counselor, etc...... It was a terrible time for me in the truth. But, I left it all in Jehovah&#39;s hands. And I continued to get counseling for my sons. My ex eventually stopped coming to the hall torturing me, and married a nonbeliever, and that set me free to remarry and start a new life for myself. To sum it all up. Men may fail you and disappoint you but Jehovah will never. I owe the fact my sons are still serving him, they are honor students, I got remarried in the Kingdom Hall to a wonderful brother, I pioneered for a year, My children got baptized this year. I have had a new born baby in the meantime. Jehovah gave me and my sons justice. My point is this. I believe what has been printed about the WTBS handling of child sex abuse, I have been through it and it was terrible. But, it was my God Jehovah that has helped me through all of it. Maybe this will encourage someone on this forum.

[barry]

Hi Obedience,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing this story with us.
This must have been very difficult to go through.
It is very good that you have been able to keep your faith in Jehovah and also for your childeren, because it happens a lot that childeren who are victims loose their faith in Jehovah.

christian regards,
Barry

[Jeshurun]

Maybe this will encourage someone on this forum.[/b]

It encourages me, very much so, to see you strong in your faith in Jehovah, and your children too, after your ordeal. May Jehovah continue to bless you!

Welcome to the forum, Obedience!

Agape
Lou

[stayawake]

Dear obedience
Welcome to the board and welcome to others I may have missed
My heart goes out to you, but I am very happy about the outcome.
Under such stress you knew that it was Jehovah that was the STRONG TOWER.
It was He JEHOVAH that Sheltered, Cared, and Blessed you
Dispite the ill treatment with in the organization, you stll never left Jah.

I speak for all with in and out sideof the WTBTS..

This is the KEY to survival,
Its loving Jehovah with ones whole heart soul ,and mind
Love stayawake

[Obedience]

Thank everyone for their nice welcomes. I am glad my experience has been of some encouragement. Because of my going through that terrible trial from within the organization. Nothing surprises me anymore. I just leet others do as they wish . As for me, I will continue to serve Jehovah. Because I know that whatever unfair situation that may develop in the future eventually Jehovah will give you what you need and make it right.

[Molly]

Dear Obedience-

Welcome to the forum and thank you for relating your experience.

It must have been horrible to find that your children were victimized and then to be victimized again for exposing the problem. It defies belief that an organization that claims to represent Jehovah could be that hardhearted and cruel. Certainly your boys appreciate that you rescued them from their stepfather. Jehovah knows the pain you and you boys have experience and will mete out the appropriate justice at the appropriate time.

On the other hand, it is your strong faith has pulled you through and happily you now have a husband that loves you and a new child. Congratulations on all counts.

Molly

[James]

I am new to this forum.[/b]

From one Christian to another-A very warm welcome!


My ex eventually stopped coming to the hall torturing me, and married a nonbeliever, and that set me free to remarry and start a new life for myself.[/b]

Dear Obedience,
IMHO, you were set free from this marriage before your EX remarried, yes, when you found out that he had sexually abused YOUR chidren!
"However, I say to YOU that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."-Matthew 5:32

"Fornication&#39; (Hebrew: zanah / Greek: porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, &#39;fornication&#39; can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Lev 20:10-21. Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting Matthew 5:28."

It is so sad to hear once again where the WTS priorities lie and how they compound the travesty in their mis-guided efforts to protect the ORGANISATION while Jehovah hides His face from them!


To sum it all up. Men may fail you and disappoint you but Jehovah will never. I owe the fact my sons are still serving him, they are honor students, I got remarried in the Kingdom Hall to a wonderful brother, I pioneered for a year, My children got baptized this year. I have had a new born baby in the meantime. Jehovah gave me and my sons justice[/b]
I am glad to hear you kept your senses and stuck close to Jehovah and saw fit to remain a JW. It seems you realize that Jehovah still has a purpose for the org., in spite of the &#39;weeds&#39; and false dates.

Agape to you and yours,
James

PS, You can cry on our shoulder anytime you need to :boohoo:

[Nash]

Hi Obedience,

Thank you for sharing your story with us, and I wish to welcome you to the forum.

Nash

[panda]

I am new to this forum. I have read all the responses in the section,"Child Sexual Abuse Among Jehovah&#39;s Witness." I have experienced the pain firsthand of having my own sons being a victim of molestation by a baptized member of the congregation that was in good standing and loved by his congregation. He was my husband at the time(MY children were from a previous marriage. ) We are now divorced. It is such a long heart wrenching story I don&#39;t know where to begin But I can tell you this. The elders in his congregation set out to have me disfellowshipped for slander for bringing up the charges against him. They called my children liars who were 4 years old and 6 years old at the time, I was talked about by numerous people in his hall and the new one I moved to by many brothers and sisters(they all supported him), they refused to believe the pyschiatrist, school counselor, etc...... It was a terrible time for me in the truth. But, I left it all in Jehovah&#39;s hands. And I continued to get counseling for my sons. My ex eventually stopped coming to the hall torturing me, and married a nonbeliever, and that set me free to remarry and start a new life for myself. To sum it all up. Men may fail you and disappoint you but Jehovah will never. I owe the fact my sons are still serving him, they are honor students, I got remarried in the Kingdom Hall to a wonderful brother, I pioneered for a year, My children got baptized this year. I have had a new born baby in the meantime. Jehovah gave me and my sons justice. My point is this. I believe what has been printed about the WTBS handling of child sex abuse, I have been through it and it was terrible. But, it was my God Jehovah that has helped me through all of it. Maybe this will encourage someone on this forum.[/b]Thank you so much for you&#39;re honesty Obedience, you have certainly encouraged me, you&#39;re faith in Jehovah&#39;s justice is what brought you through, and I can see that.
I hope that things continue to be progressive for you and you&#39;re family. And thank you again for a very encouraging post.
Cheers

[stayawake]

Dear Obedience,
Welcome !
Thank you for sharing ,your heartfelt exsperience.
When one makes Jehovah their STRONGHOLD as you did, one can endure almost anything.
I am soo happy your boys hearts are set on the RIGHT SHEPHERD.You have set a GREAT example for them.

When everything goes down, Jah will ALWAYS still be there for us, as long as we cling to HIM.
You were al;ready given a taste of how GOOD HE is. :buja_w_oblokach:
love stayawake

[Obedience]

Dear Obedience,
Welcome !
Thank you for sharing ,your heartfelt exsperience.
When one makes Jehovah their STRONGHOLD as you did, one can endure almost anything.
I am soo happy your boys hearts are set on the RIGHT SHEPHERD.You have set a GREAT example for them.

When everything goes down, Jah will ALWAYS still be there for us, as long as we cling to HIM.
You were al;ready given a taste of how GOOD HE is. :buja_w_oblokach:
love stayawake[/b]

Thank everyone for you wonderful responses you guys have really encourage me in return. You are so right when you wrote that Jehovah will always be there for us as long as we cling to him. I still have to remind myself of that when I see things happen in my congregation that isn&#39;t exactly fair. Or when my best friend calls me and tells me about things that are going on with the young ones in her area and how they seem to get away with it. However, nevertheless, Jehovah is the one I serve and he will always correct things in his due time.

[Nash]

I still have to remind myself of that when I see things happen in my congregation that isn&#39;t exactly fair. Or when my best friend calls me and tells me about things that are going on with the young ones in her area and how they seem to get away with it. However, nevertheless, Jehovah is the one I serve and he will always correct things in his due time.[/b]

Hi Obedience,

I empathize completely! Sometimes I often wonder to myself what the real differences are between Jehovah&#39;s people and those of the world. The fact that many are under the delusion that a so-called spiritual paradise exists presently is one of the factors which causes many such as you and I to be troubled by what we see. When we realize that no such spiritual paradise exists within the congregations, it helps us to understand and realize that many only claim to serve Jehovah and have a form of godly devotion, but prove false to its power.

After all, since there are many in the world who get away with wrongdoing, why shouldn&#39;t Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses also get away with wrongdoing, especially when many who are getting away with wrongdoing (and those who stumble others) are those taking the lead in the congregations, and in many instances their families as well?

The evil slave has infiltrated the congregations. Many don&#39;t even know and realize that they are under the influence of the evil slave either! They go about their routine not even thinking twice about what they are doing! All the while, sadly, it is the ones who are truly honest and those who are serving Jehovah that are suffering and losing the most - at least for the present. Hopefully, Jehovah will remember the suffering of his true servants.

Nash B)

[Obedience]

<div class='quotemain'>I still have to remind myself of that when I see things happen in my congregation that isn&#39;t exactly fair. Or when my best friend calls me and tells me about things that are going on with the young ones in her area and how they seem to get away with it. However, nevertheless, Jehovah is the one I serve and he will always correct things in his due time.[/b]

Hi Obedience,

I empathize completely! Sometimes I often wonder to myself what the real differences are between Jehovah&#39;s people and those of the world. The fact that many are under the delusion that a so-called spiritual paradise exists presently is one of the factors which causes many such as you and I to be troubled by what we see. When we realize that no such spiritual paradise exists within the congregations, it helps us to understand and realize that many only claim to serve Jehovah and have a form of godly devotion, but prove false to its power.

After all, since there are many in the world who get away with wrongdoing, why shouldn&#39;t Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses also get away with wrongdoing, especially when many who are getting away with wrongdoing (and those who stumble others) are those taking the lead in the congregations, and in many instances their families as well?

The evil slave has infiltrated the congregations. Many don&#39;t even know and realize that they are under the influence of the evil slave either! They go about their routine not even thinking twice about what they are doing! All the while, sadly, it is the ones who are truly honest and those who are serving Jehovah that are suffering and losing the most - at least for the present. Hopefully, Jehovah will remember the suffering of his true servants.

Nash B)
[/b][/quote]
The only difference between Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses and the world is one thing: We have knowlegde of the truth and Jehovah&#39;s purpose for the earth. Other than that, there are no differences people are people. They have the same problems and emotions as we do. In the congregation, you find a variety, those who are prejudiced, unfair, partial, and backstabbing, and you also find those who are honest hearted, fair, and really trying to put on that new personality. I purposely choose to associate with those who are upbuilding, real, and positive. I avoid cliques. I do agree that the evil slave is among us in the congregation. It is shocking how much information that is supposed to confidential gets leaked on the internet! And you know that it comes from those higher up in the ranks! It is very obvious we are so close to the end. I don&#39;t know about your area but some of our fellow brothers and sisters are literally losing it! The things they are doing makes absolutely no sense. Just last week this brother who volunteers at Bethel from time to time, goes to a spanish congregation, ministerial servant has been drinking alone with an underage sister in the congregation( they were alone in the house of a witness couple who was away on vacation, the sister was supposed to be house sitting; the couple returned and found beer cans stuffed under the couch) this same brother the same week, shot another brother in the foot with a small pistol. I promise this is the absolute truth. I could go on and on.

[stayawake]

Good morning Obedience

I hear you loud and clear
I also believe everything your saying.
Our cong before I walked away was know for its drinking.

A friend inside (WT) was just saying yesterday that the society had noticed that the friends come to the meeting right before they start, then leave immeditley afterwards.

Some here may remember years ago in the 60s there was a intermission on Sunday between the PT and the WT study.
Well anyway, thats the reason why the PT will be 15 min shorter
To allow the friends to fellowship , while they all are still there..
like they use to years ago.

That move may just back fire
The way I see it
it may just give a better opportunity to just attend one meeting.for some.

of course I only speak for myself

love stayawake

[shikinah]

<div class='quotemain'>Without specific regard to this case, the prison system in the U.K. is in a state of overcrowding. It might be part of the reason that judges are reluctant to pass prison sentences.

It is also a political-economic situation which means if overcrowding issues did figure into thier general decsion making they proberbley wouldn`t admitt to it.

All of that on top of the fact that thier are cranky judges and disparative crime and punishment ratios.[/b]

Hmmm. Perhaps the UK should take a page from the old Empire&#39;s playbook and start shipping criminals off to Australia&#39;s Outback again. Or better yet, send them to Iraq!

Watchman
[/b][/quote]


We heard this story when it was released last year, as the bethel isnt far from where i live.. aparently he was working on the information desk at bethel, when the a visitor happened to be one of the boys he abused many years ago, the young man gave him an option to own up or he would report him himself, and he tried to say he had been going for treatment. I heard several elders had covered up for him..and in the end they all got repremanded. And the old congregation where this paedophile had seved years ago had to be shut down and relocated, because of all the trouble which had escalated.
Paedophiles always get light sentances in britain, because most of the judges are like that themselves.

Sisterly love..
Elizabeth..

ps his wife is standing by him too, and iv&#39;e been told he&#39;ll also be aloud to go back on feild service accompanied by an elder.

[Jahsdisciple]

Obedience said:"I don&#39;t know about your area but some of our fellow brothers and sisters are literally losing it! The things they are doing makes absolutely no sense."

This to me doesnt mean that there is an evil slave in the org,all it means is that people arnt given the keys to real happiness and its all masked over with &#39;go to the meetings,go witnessing and pray and all your problems will be solved"

What Jah says in the bible about our own self worth is a lot more involved. If that isnt addressed then major problems will confront us. When we depend on others for self validation,immoral sex is used to cover those felings because we think that if someone wants to have sex with us,that must mean in some way we have something beautiful about us...because there has to be attraction of some sort to want to have sex with someone.

To me this is why so many are immoral in the Org. Not because they are &#39;immoral&#39;,but because their self worth issues have not been adressed and sex is the &#39;easy way&#39; to feel loved by someone else. The WTS has no idea about such matters and just tell people to not be immoral because "Jah says so". I know of many,esp young ones who have been caught in the trap of not knowing what to do about their self doubts and not feeling lovable.. Instead of helping people to see this, its &#39;the more you feel this way,"do more witnessing,take your mind of your own problems" which is VERY unhealthy because the longer an issue is left untreated,the more extreme the behavior will be to make up for these unresolved inner feelings later on.

If the WTS wont address these isses,then people who have these doubts will look to other sources...the world. It says,"have sex,you will feel valuable and loved" "your value as a person is higlighted by having other people being atracted to you sexually,so wear revealing clothing because that will help others see your physical sexy side" I dont see people who wear revealing clothing as immoral or even trying to have sex,its a way to let other people know you have something of physical value to offer which makes you valuable in some way.

This is why some young ones and older also,keep wearing this type of clothing dispite the org telling them otherwise,its because its a way to let others know they have something of a physical nature that makes them attractive and valuable in the eyes of others...thus having worth as a person.

Same with drug use. This is used to mask these same feelings of unlovablness. Im not saying that all drug use or experimenting in the WTS is this because some just get caught up in it because of the high and the thrill of not getting caught. If they were taught about the natural highs from realising that we are still in the image of Jah and can gain benefits from that,would drugs have any appeal ? Doubt it !

But the org is obsessed with "earning Gods blessing" because they dont know He loves us already. Our already existing worth is what motivated Jah and JC to save &#39;what was lost&#39;

So what i see happening is because the bibles &#39;other truth&#39; about self worth and our lovablness is not adressed. There are evil people there,but the majority of peoples problems come from self worth issues and how they try and mask these issues,which the WTS has no clue about.