Shibboleth
01-12-2007, 04:20 PM
I have researched the topic of Abaddon/Apollyon and if this is really Jesus Christ or another being namely Satan. The reason why I have done research is not to discount the Watchtower Society's research or conclusions, but to see why the Watchtower is the only one that views Abaddon/Apollyon as Christ where everyone else sees something more evil and in many cases believe it to be Satan and his demon hordes. I will quote scripture and try my hardest to remember what the Climax book and other materials say about this subject so I can give a clean biased view.
Let's start at the end of the 4th trumpet.
Rev. 8
13 (http://) And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”[/b]
This proclamation was heard after the 4th trumpet. Three woes for the last three trumpets. These woes are for the entire earth not just a select few but the whole world that includes you and me. The other time that Revelation calls a woe for the earth is when Satan is cast to the earth.
Rev. 12
12 (http://) On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”[/b]
So this was a woe being proclaimed for the earth and for the sea. The sea would represent the sea of mankind. We are part of the sea of mankind. So how does it tie into the three woes that are proclaimed in the last three trumpet blasts? I see this woe and the three woes as one and the same. I see the three trumpet blasts that are woes to mankind as being the time when Satan is unleashed on the earth.
The 5th trumpet blast.
Rev. 9
1 (http://) And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 (http://) And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit.[/b]
The Watchtower Society sees this angel that falls to the earth with the key to the abyss as Jesus. I see and understand their reasoning on why they came to this conclusion and I agree with them, but the part I have a problem with is "And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth". The word fallen has always been associated with someone who has been terminated from a positions. For instance "Babylon the Great has fallen." means that a great empire has been taken out of commision, it no longer holds the power it once had.
Rev. 9
3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 (http://) And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 (http://) And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 (http://) And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them.[/b]
The Climax book describes these locusts as an army doing the preaching work. I do not have the actual quote from the Climax book so if anyone would like, please post it so we can go over it in more detail. Now the reason why I do not think this has anything to do with witnessing or preaching is the way that it is worded. The locust army was not to hurt anyone who had the seal of God on their foreheads. Those with the seal are the annointed class. So how could a command be given to the Annointed class (if they are the locusts) not to harm themselves. The preaching work in my opinion is not a woe, but I believe it is a blessing. No, there is something more to these locusts. Why would the preaching work drive people to want to die? I believe these locusts are in fact demons.
Rev. 9
7 (http://) And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle; and upon their heads [were] what seemed to be crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as men’s faces, 8 (http://) but they had hair as women’s hair. And their teeth were as those of lions; 9 (http://) and they had breastplates like iron breastplates. And the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle. 10 (http://) Also, they have tails and stings like scorpions; and in their tails is their authority to hurt the men five months.[/b]
When I read these verses I can't see why anyone would want to be described as looking like this. These locusts sound utterly disgusting and fierce. Now I believe the Society says these are the annointed because they wear something that looks like crowns. I don't believe this for one minute. The reason is everywhere else in revelation that describes the annointed there is no mistanking it. they are always describe as wearing white robes and beautiful and there is a distinction that is made that they actually wear crowns and not something that appears to be crowns. Again, they have an authority to hurt the men, that is you and me and not hurt the ones with the seals of God whom are the annointed. Would Jehovah give a command to demons to do this very thought? In actuality Jehovah doesn't command, but gives authority. Would Jehovah give authority to demons? Yes. Job is a prime example of Jehovah giving authority to Satan.
Job 1
12 (http://) Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.
Job 2
6 (http://) Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “There he is in your hand! Only watch out for his soul itself!”[/b]
Here, Jehovah gives Satan full authority to test Job but on the condition that he doesn't kill him. So how can this mean that the locust army is the demonic forces? Satan is given authority over all the earth to test mankind. He uses all modes of influence. Also wouldn't a demonic influence drive someone to insanity moreso then someone doing the preaching work?
So how can I come to the conclusion that Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan?
Rev. 9
11 (http://) They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·bad´don, but in Greek he has the name A·pol´lyon.[/b]
Here it shows that these locusts have a king. He in fact is King of the Abyss. I can't see this being Jesus. For one, Jesus is not a King of the Abyss. He is a Heavenly installed King over the whole universe. Secondly this king is only king of the abyss which means those in the abyss are his followers. I did research on Wikipedia on this.
From Wiki
Apollyon appears in the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) (Book of Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) 9:7 – 11) leading the locust-like swarm of demons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon) that will be released in the End Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_Times):
7. In appearance the locusts were like horses arrayed for battle; on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8. their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9. they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10. They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails. 11. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon. The name, in Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) "Destroyer" (Απολλυων, from απολλυειν, to destroy) is cognate with the Hebrew Abaddon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon) (lit. "place of destruction," but here personified) and the Greek god Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo), also a "destroyer" in his aspect of controlling pestilence, though the composite monstrosity that is Apollyon is distinctly Babylonian and Persian, not Hellenic, in inspiration. Apollyon seems to be equated in Revelation with the Beast. The term "Apollyon" was often associated by early Christians with The Devil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil), and fancifully described, and is still used as an alternative name for him.
Apollyon is the "foul fiend" who assaulted Christian on his pilgrimage through the Valley of Humiliation in John Bunyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bunyan)'s great allegory The Pilgrim's Progress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim%27s_Progress). The identification with the Asmodeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus) of Tobit iii. 8 is erroneous.[/b]
It is interesting to note that the name Apollyon is not Hellenic but Persian/Babylonian in inspiration. So this name has deep roots in Babylonian deities. Why would Jesus be likened to a Babylonian inspired deity? or even a Greek one? I cannot see this. Also it is distinct that the angel thet falls from heaven with the keys and the angel who is King of the abyss are two different entities.
After the 5th trumpet the 6th one is blown and that is even more of a woe. That is the start of the tribulation.
Another theory is that the angel that falls to the earth is Satan and he uses the keys to open the abyssed demons that were cast into Tartarus after the flood. Which could also make sense. I am currently still doing research on that subject.
Anyways, these are some of my thoughts on why I think Abaddon/Apollyon could be someone else other then Jesus. I wrote this kinda quickly so I might have left some of my research out of the mix, but if people are willing to discuss this then I may be able to remember more. So I will open this up for discussion. If someone has information that may help me turn my views back towards the Watchtower's view on this, please post. I will not disregard any posts on this.
Thanks,
Shibboleth
Let's start at the end of the 4th trumpet.
Rev. 8
13 (http://) And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”[/b]
This proclamation was heard after the 4th trumpet. Three woes for the last three trumpets. These woes are for the entire earth not just a select few but the whole world that includes you and me. The other time that Revelation calls a woe for the earth is when Satan is cast to the earth.
Rev. 12
12 (http://) On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”[/b]
So this was a woe being proclaimed for the earth and for the sea. The sea would represent the sea of mankind. We are part of the sea of mankind. So how does it tie into the three woes that are proclaimed in the last three trumpet blasts? I see this woe and the three woes as one and the same. I see the three trumpet blasts that are woes to mankind as being the time when Satan is unleashed on the earth.
The 5th trumpet blast.
Rev. 9
1 (http://) And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 (http://) And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit.[/b]
The Watchtower Society sees this angel that falls to the earth with the key to the abyss as Jesus. I see and understand their reasoning on why they came to this conclusion and I agree with them, but the part I have a problem with is "And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth". The word fallen has always been associated with someone who has been terminated from a positions. For instance "Babylon the Great has fallen." means that a great empire has been taken out of commision, it no longer holds the power it once had.
Rev. 9
3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 (http://) And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 (http://) And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 (http://) And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them.[/b]
The Climax book describes these locusts as an army doing the preaching work. I do not have the actual quote from the Climax book so if anyone would like, please post it so we can go over it in more detail. Now the reason why I do not think this has anything to do with witnessing or preaching is the way that it is worded. The locust army was not to hurt anyone who had the seal of God on their foreheads. Those with the seal are the annointed class. So how could a command be given to the Annointed class (if they are the locusts) not to harm themselves. The preaching work in my opinion is not a woe, but I believe it is a blessing. No, there is something more to these locusts. Why would the preaching work drive people to want to die? I believe these locusts are in fact demons.
Rev. 9
7 (http://) And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle; and upon their heads [were] what seemed to be crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as men’s faces, 8 (http://) but they had hair as women’s hair. And their teeth were as those of lions; 9 (http://) and they had breastplates like iron breastplates. And the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle. 10 (http://) Also, they have tails and stings like scorpions; and in their tails is their authority to hurt the men five months.[/b]
When I read these verses I can't see why anyone would want to be described as looking like this. These locusts sound utterly disgusting and fierce. Now I believe the Society says these are the annointed because they wear something that looks like crowns. I don't believe this for one minute. The reason is everywhere else in revelation that describes the annointed there is no mistanking it. they are always describe as wearing white robes and beautiful and there is a distinction that is made that they actually wear crowns and not something that appears to be crowns. Again, they have an authority to hurt the men, that is you and me and not hurt the ones with the seals of God whom are the annointed. Would Jehovah give a command to demons to do this very thought? In actuality Jehovah doesn't command, but gives authority. Would Jehovah give authority to demons? Yes. Job is a prime example of Jehovah giving authority to Satan.
Job 1
12 (http://) Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.
Job 2
6 (http://) Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “There he is in your hand! Only watch out for his soul itself!”[/b]
Here, Jehovah gives Satan full authority to test Job but on the condition that he doesn't kill him. So how can this mean that the locust army is the demonic forces? Satan is given authority over all the earth to test mankind. He uses all modes of influence. Also wouldn't a demonic influence drive someone to insanity moreso then someone doing the preaching work?
So how can I come to the conclusion that Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan?
Rev. 9
11 (http://) They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·bad´don, but in Greek he has the name A·pol´lyon.[/b]
Here it shows that these locusts have a king. He in fact is King of the Abyss. I can't see this being Jesus. For one, Jesus is not a King of the Abyss. He is a Heavenly installed King over the whole universe. Secondly this king is only king of the abyss which means those in the abyss are his followers. I did research on Wikipedia on this.
From Wiki
Apollyon appears in the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) (Book of Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) 9:7 – 11) leading the locust-like swarm of demons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon) that will be released in the End Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_Times):
7. In appearance the locusts were like horses arrayed for battle; on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8. their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9. they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10. They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails. 11. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon. The name, in Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) "Destroyer" (Απολλυων, from απολλυειν, to destroy) is cognate with the Hebrew Abaddon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon) (lit. "place of destruction," but here personified) and the Greek god Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo), also a "destroyer" in his aspect of controlling pestilence, though the composite monstrosity that is Apollyon is distinctly Babylonian and Persian, not Hellenic, in inspiration. Apollyon seems to be equated in Revelation with the Beast. The term "Apollyon" was often associated by early Christians with The Devil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil), and fancifully described, and is still used as an alternative name for him.
Apollyon is the "foul fiend" who assaulted Christian on his pilgrimage through the Valley of Humiliation in John Bunyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bunyan)'s great allegory The Pilgrim's Progress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim%27s_Progress). The identification with the Asmodeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus) of Tobit iii. 8 is erroneous.[/b]
It is interesting to note that the name Apollyon is not Hellenic but Persian/Babylonian in inspiration. So this name has deep roots in Babylonian deities. Why would Jesus be likened to a Babylonian inspired deity? or even a Greek one? I cannot see this. Also it is distinct that the angel thet falls from heaven with the keys and the angel who is King of the abyss are two different entities.
After the 5th trumpet the 6th one is blown and that is even more of a woe. That is the start of the tribulation.
Another theory is that the angel that falls to the earth is Satan and he uses the keys to open the abyssed demons that were cast into Tartarus after the flood. Which could also make sense. I am currently still doing research on that subject.
Anyways, these are some of my thoughts on why I think Abaddon/Apollyon could be someone else other then Jesus. I wrote this kinda quickly so I might have left some of my research out of the mix, but if people are willing to discuss this then I may be able to remember more. So I will open this up for discussion. If someone has information that may help me turn my views back towards the Watchtower's view on this, please post. I will not disregard any posts on this.
Thanks,
Shibboleth