For Those Of Us Not In The Us

[ness]

I just happened to stumble across this NGO thing while googling Jehovah's Witnesses the other day and have since been trying to put it all together.

The evidence I have to go on that Ive found is the 2 articles in the Guardian newspaper and those 2 PDF letters. One from the DPI stating that JW's applied for NGO status and the response from Paul Gillies (if that was his name?).

As we are so far away in Australia you can understand that this whole fiasco sounds a tad surreal. I still don't actually believe it.

So, if someone who doesn't have an axe to grind against the JW's would kindly give me a brief and objective rundown on what transpired I would be eternally grateful.

Thank you :)

[SlaveForJah]

Hello Ness,

If you visit the E-Watchman site, there are several essays under the subheading "The Watchtower and the NGO Controversy" that may be of help to you.

SlaveForJah

[watchman]

I just happened to stumble across this NGO thing while googling Jehovah's Witnesses the other day and have since been trying to put it all together.

The evidence I have to go on that Ive found is the 2 articles in the Guardian newspaper and those 2 PDF letters. One from the DPI stating that JW's applied for NGO status and the response from Paul Gillies (if that was his name?).

As we are so far away in Australia you can understand that this whole fiasco sounds a tad surreal. I still don't actually believe it.

So, if someone who doesn't have an axe to grind against the JW's would kindly give me a brief and objective rundown on what transpired I would be eternally grateful.

Thank you :)[/b]

Hi Ness. Welcome to the forum

First, it doesn't have anything to do with living in the U.S. The Internet is what exposed the Watchtower. It first came out in the Guardian, which is a British newspaper; but the news traveled at lightening speed on the Internet and thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands of JW's soon were calling the UN and the WT demanding to know what was going on.

There is nothing sureal about. Actually, the Watchtower admitted they were associated with the UN for 10 years, but they claim it was all a big misunderstanding. They claim that they were wrongly told that they had to become an associate NGO just to use the UN library, which isn't true. Many of us called and wrote the UN and they said before 9-11 qualified researchers could use the library, not just affliliated NGO's. Then the WT said the application papers they had on file didn't require any compromise from them. However, the UN criteria for NGO's clearly states that NGO's have to be committed to carrying out an effective information campaign in behalf of the United Nations. The Watchtower's explanation is implausable. They want us to believe that the UN waived the requirments for the WT, even though the UN annually rejects unqualified applicants and even de-lists accepted NGO's that no longer meet the qualifications. Yet, the WT is asking us believe that nothing was required of them for the 10 years they were associated with the UN.

I have written extensively on this topic over the years. On the essay's index page, (http://e-watchman.com/watchman-essays-collection.html)toward the top, there are a number of essays that reveal the extent to which the WT went in carrying out its obligation as an associate level NGO.

Watchman

[ness]

Thank you for the summation and your welcome :)

I have actually read your essays Watchman. And as informative as they are don't actually help me lol.

I want to be able to show members of my family what has gone on, but obviously they are rather wary of internet sites.

Even the fact that the Guardian, a rather well regarded British newspaper broke the story doesn't help me because anyone who knows how the media works understands that they twist and manipulate the truth....and lets admit, Stephen Bates the in house religion journo doesn't exactly like JW's from what I can tell from all his other pieces.


Actually, the Watchtower admitted they were associated with the UN for 10 years[/b]

Besides the press release by Paul Gillies, (which I cannot find on the official WTBTS website) and the Branch letter from the Chairman's Committee, have they stated this in any other literature...an Awake, something? Because to me, photocopies of supposed letters posted on the net just doesn't cut the mustard as evidence and I wouldn't want to try and prove anything based on those.

Also, the statement that was released by Paul Hoeffel confirming the request by the WTBTS and their sudden withdrawal where was that printed? In the Guardian? I didn't see it.

The only concrete thing I have to go on right now is the hyperlink to the OHCHR and even then, that alone can't be called concrete if I don't have any other supporting evidence.

Now, to many of you I must sound like an idiot who just doesn't want to 'get it' lol, but if I'm seeking to prove this to other people (and myself) how can I do this? The only thing I can think of is to contact the UNs section for NGOs and get it straight from the horses mouth.

Now, did any of that make sense?

[Nash]

Hi Ness,

Welcome to the Forum! B)

The WTS has a poor track record of admitting its faults and failings. Sure, they encourage others to apologize, but up to now, they have rarely if ever done so themselves. Therefore, any sort of admission by the WTS with respect to their association with the UN probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

The letter which was addressed by Paul Hoeffel, I would think, is excellent evidence. The letter itself bears the UN logo and briefly explains the requirements that the WTS had to perform. I admit I have only seen copies of the letters from various sites on the web, but, I seriously doubt that the letter is a hoax. Besides, the letter itself mentions that there have been many inquiries made on this matter.

Another two points to consider - what does the UN hope to gain by means of fabricating such a letter if it was not true? Further, why is the WTS disfellowshipping some of those who voice their concerns about this affair (from what I have read on numerous discussion boards)?

I think you gave yourself a good option however. Why don't you contact the UN yourself? Let us know the results.

I wouldn't publicize your actions to any in your congregation, though.

Nash

[ness]

Welcome to the Forum! B)[/b]

Thanks ;)


The WTS has a poor track record of admitting its faults and failings. Sure, they encourage others to apologize, but up to now, they have rarely if ever done so themselves. Therefore, any sort of admission by the WTS with respect to their association with the UN probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.[/b]

I see what you're saying and agree up to a point.

For instance, when you go onto the official WTBTS site they have all the press releases there including transcripts and documents associated to the legal action being brought against them for that whole child abuse issue. Why not the NGO press release? Do you see my point?


The letter which was addressed by Paul Hoeffel, I would think, is excellent evidence. The letter itself bears the UN logo and briefly explains the requirements that the WTS had to perform. I admit I have only seen copies of the letters from various sites on the web, but, I seriously doubt that the letter is a hoax. Besides, the letter itself mentions that there have been many inquiries made on this matter.[/b]

Anyone with a minimal degree of computer knowledge can write a document with a UN letterhead. Also, the fact that many people have made enquiries is once again anecdotal at best. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just want to get the facts straight so that I don't look like a tool when I bring this up with people lol.


Another two points to consider - what does the UN hope to gain by means of fabricating such a letter if it was not true? Further, why is the WTS disfellowshipping some of those who voice their concerns about this affair (from what I have read on numerous discussion boards)?[/b]

I'm not suggesting the UN was fabricating the letter...I just want to make sure no one else did.

As for the disfellowshipping of brothers and sisters in connection with this issue, well people here in Australia know nothing of the NGO issue, so they cant very well question something they don't know exists. But more than that, some of the forums on which people are making these claims leave a lot to be desired, so once again its dodgy anecdotal evidence at best.


I think you gave yourself a good option however. Why don't you contact the UN yourself? Let us know the results.[/b]

Ive emailed various departments..lets see what I turn up.


I wouldn't publicize your actions to any in your congregation, though.[/b]

no chance of that happening. Ive been inactive for a while now...I don't claim to be an upstanding JW and have my own set of issues with the organisation as a whole. But when it comes to allegations such as affiliation with the UN I feel the need to do some research. old habits die hard eh :)

[Nash]

Hi Ness,

"For instance, when you go onto the official WTBTS site they have all the press releases there including transcripts and documents associated to the legal action being brought against them for that whole child abuse issue. Why not the NGO press release? Do you see my point?"

Which website are you referring to?

I know that www.jw-media.org has some commentary videos about the problem of child abuse in general. Perhaps I missed the link. I haven't found any transcripts/documents. Perhaps I missed it but I'll have another look. Could you point me in the right direction? I would be surprised to find anything relating to any out-of-court settlements by the WTS to victims of child abuse, especially with respect to what has been coming out over the last year or so.

As for the UN issue, I doubt that the WTS would put any of that information on their official websites. From what I have read on the net, various individuals have received a letter from the Society stating that the purpose for their association with the DPI was to access library facilities (due to the possession of a library card). If any of the official websites of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Inc. or any related corporation has put out any material whatsoever with respect to their UN affiliation, I'd like to see it.

"Anyone with a minimal degree of computer knowledge can write a document with a UN letterhead. Also, the fact that many people have made enquiries is once again anecdotal at best. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just want to get the facts straight so that I don't look like a fool* [word edited by Nash] when I bring this up with people."

Your point is well taken. If this was an isolated case, I too would be suspicious. But again, I think that when people in multiple countries are inquiring about the same issue, I would think that there is at least some truth to the story.

"As for the disfellowshipping of brothers and sisters in connection with this issue, well people here in Australia know nothing of the NGO issue, so they can't very well question something they don't know exists. But more than that, some of the forums on which people are making these claims leave a lot to be desired, so once again its dodgy anecdotal evidence at best."

I am sure that there are some people in Australia who know about the NGO issue. In fact, there is a poster on a discussion board who goes by the name of "Alpha," and he is part of a board who is defending the WTS on this issue (as well as other issues). On a third board, there is a poster who goes by the name of "Alpha-Abels" and his profile says that he is from Australia. I would think that these two individuals are in fact one and the same person, as it seems to me that their writing styles and attitudes are similar.

Perhaps knowledge of the NGO issue is not as widespread in Australia as it is here in North America.

"I've e-mailed various departments...let's see what I turn up."

I hope that you will let us know the results of your research.

"No chance of that happening. I've been inactive for a while now...I don't claim to be an upstanding JW and have my own set of issues with the organisation as a whole. But when it comes to allegations such as affiliation with the UN I feel the need to do some research. Old habits die hard, eh? :) "

Sorry to hear that you are inactive. But I understand completely your need to do research. I too have contemplated writing the UN about this matter.

Nash

[ness]

Nash, you are absolutely correct. The official website doesnt have any transcripts and docs relating to the recent child abuse allegations *sigh*....now Im just confusing myself :(

Im off to have a break now.

[barry]

I admit I have only seen copies of the letters from various sites on the web, but, I seriously doubt that the letter is a hoax. Besides, the letter itself mentions that there have been many inquiries made on this matter.[/b]


Here is a link to the doc directly from the UN site, so looks like it is authentic.

http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/pdfs/watchtower.pdf

[ness]

oh my! that, that right there is the clincher.

i feel like I just lost a little bit of my soul :( (well, you guys know what I mean...)

[Orchid]

oh my! that, that right there is the clincher.

i feel like I just lost a little bit of my soul :( (well, you guys know what I mean...)[/b]

Just remember that Jehovah will fix everything in due time. (It can't come soon enough) It's really helped me to put more trust in him, not the elders or any other man. Please hang tight.

Orchid :40:

[Nash]

"Here is a link to the doc directly from the UN site, so looks like it is authentic."

Good thinking, Barry! I had also seen it on the UN site - I can't believe I forgot about that! Thanks!

"I feel like I just lost a little bit of my soul :( (well, you guys know what I mean...)."

I wouldn't sweat it, Ness. At least some of your questions were answered!

Nash B)

[Sketch]

Hello Ness,

I wrote to the society with these questions. and I got a reply back from them stating that yes, they were an NGO for a while - with the same reasons listed above...

If you need to hear it from the horse's mouth, feel free to write to them and question them about it.

~Sketch

[DoubtingThomas]

Sketch ... you have a lot more courage (to write the WTBTS society about this one issue) than me!

Maybe because I had already written them (WTBTS) and CO's and DO's about so many other issues that this matter (UN NGO) was just too minor for me to deal with, even though it bothered me too!

I discussed this matter with a friend, and his advice was very appropriate - that we have to choose our battles with "the society". Even though this issue of the WTBTS being an NGO and actually publishing articles in support of the UN over a period of several years bothered me, I did not want to add one more letter to my file at that time. I was told by my friend that the society keeps a file by zip code of all letters received from congregation publishers, and that a copy of that letter is also sent to the congregation elders (when appropriate).

Between child abuse policies, unscriptural divorces, and other major problems I have with the WTBTS, I did not want to add one more letter (about the NGO affair) to my case file. That is because they already know about me very well back in Brooklyn!!! That is what I was told. Plus ... When I call, they already know about my (it was one one certain nationally publized)case! I was on a nationally televised major network (NBC). That is true! I hate reporting that on this forum. My congregation elders view me as a "problem" publisher. But I was not DF'd. They did have a JC interview me though.

My congregation PO said that I was the only publisher he ever knew that had received so many replies from the "GB" for my questions I had written in the form of letters. Apparently many do not recieve replies to their inquiries!

Fortunately ... some of my letters actually have actually received results, including looking in to the affairs of one unscrupolous elder in my former congregation!

So ... in conclusion, I have to agree with ness here. BTW - welcome aboard ness. Anyway ... Show me the proof! I think this is a just another of so many issues that many of us here have with the WTBTS. And on this issue ... I have been really struggling. I have heard both sides of the argument, and I don't know which way to lean. If this were a trial, it would be a hung jury (by me),Thanks for letting me vent!!!

DT

[ness]

I wouldn't sweat it, Ness. At least some of your questions were answered!
Nash B)[/b]

how can you not sweat it?

I don't know whats being going on in the organisation in the past decade since I was last in regular attendance, but the very institution that I felt like I had to leave as I could not live up to its high standards appears to have slipped somewhere :(

I'm almost frightened to look further into the sexual abuse scandal for fear of what I'm going to find and becoming even more disillusioned.

I don't know if the 'powers that be' (for want of another phrase) are just grossly incompetent or if there is a culture of covering things up. As I don't want to be negative, I'm clinging to the hope that they just don't know how to handle sensitive issues well and overall have appalling PR.

But what is really starting to get up my nose, is that when discussing these issues with my family, no one believes me. I don't think I've ever been called an 'apostate' so many times in my life lol. I guess I shouldn't bring it up with my C/O uncle then eh http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5779/ashamedan7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Sketch]

I guess I shouldn't bring it up with my C/O uncle then eh http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5779/ashamedan7.gif (http://imageshack.us)[/b]

Well, you could slide into the conversation... I've found thats a safe way to do things like this... just tell him you met someone and started talking religion and so-and-so mentioned the UN/child abuse/bulgarian blood issue/large issue/etc...

[BenjaminiteII]

I admit I have only seen copies of the letters from various sites on the web, but, I seriously doubt that the letter is a hoax. Besides, the letter itself mentions that there have been many inquiries made on this matter.[/b]


Here is a link to the doc directly from the UN site, so looks like it is authentic.

http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/pdfs/watchtower.pdf
[/b]


this link doesn't seem to be working.
does anyone have another one or a way of making it work?

it's just an Elder in my hall wants me to e-mail him the relevant information that I am "stumbled" over....

many thanks

[watchman]

this link doesn't seem to be working.
does anyone have another one or a way of making it work?

it's just an Elder in my hall wants me to e-mail him the relevant information that I am "stumbled" over....

many thanks[/b]

The link works fine for me. Try copying and pasting the URL directly into your browser window and then press ENTER

[watchman]

Or, better yet, if you want to add context to it, go to the UN site and do a search with the terms WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY. The search page should look like this http://www.un.org/search/

[Eli's Foe]

Hi BenjamiteII,

I see that this NGO issue is causing you a great deal of concern at present. What you need to be aware of is the depth of the duplicity involved which goes far beyond the obvious. If you search the web in detail or review other threads posted over the months you will find the WTS involvement with Rand Cam which was owned by Reg Technologies - check out the relevance for yourself and review the SEC filing for the type of proof you are looking for at http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/08/13/000...2/Section17.asp (http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/08/13/0001015402-01-502232/Section17.asp)

On top of this you must realise that multiple NGO filings were made by affiliated branch offices of the WTS. Then there is the Child abuse issue and of course the Masonic connections from the early days and........ shall I go on??

There is so much to discover that "stumbled" wont cover it. You know what though? When you are really down, Jehovah will pick you up and show you the truth.

EF

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't see the relevance in the WT receiving a donation from Mr. McCann for shares in an engine corporation. They (WTBTS) have investments and own shares in many similiar corporations also. So do I. What's the connection here? Am I missing something here? Is this is a sin or just the wise use and investment of our monthly donations to the WTBTS?

[DoubtingThomas]

I would be as cautious as a serpent in what you show this elder Benjamin. If you show him any printouts from so-called "apostate" web sites, they might not view you as "stumbled", but instead view you as apostate also. All that is necessary is for you to show him a copy of the Guardian article which broke this story originally. Just google "Guardian Watchtower United Nations " and many web sites have a copy of the article. I believe the Guradian newspaper still has a copy of the article on their site also. Just print that out. It is sufficient enough. Of course this elder will come back with the letter to elders in the congregation file, with the WT official explanation, but listen to e-watchmans last podcast on this subject and you will know how to respond. Good Luck!

DT

[BenjaminiteII]

I would be as cautious as a serpent in what you show this elder Benjamin. If you show him any printouts from so-called "apostate" web sites, they might not view you as "stumbled", but instead view you as apostate also. All that is necessary is for you to show him a copy of the Guardian article which broke this story originally. Just google "Guardian Watchtower United Nations " and many web sites have a copy of the article. I believe the Guradian newspaper still has a copy of the article on their site also. Just print that out. It is sufficient enough. Of course this elder will come back with the letter to elders in the congregation file, with the WT official explanation, but listen to e-watchmans last podcast on this subject and you will know how to respond. Good Luck!

DT[/b]



thanks Thomas for your concern, I wouldn't print anything out from an "Apostate" site anyway - its a non-starter anyway as me printers knacked!! :lol: - I'm just gonna send him that newspaper article, the UN pdf as thats conclusive IMO annd perhaps an article from a paper that compares the WTS with the clergy in their dealings with the courts...



Eli, it really does 'P' me off what the society have done and I really don't know what to believe in anymore or who I can trust.
I appreciate that you mean well with trying to encourage me with upbuilding words but I'm just totally sick of religion at the mo. It's a snare and a racket.

I hate the way at the 1 day assembly they banged on about staying clear of the internet - yeah, cos we might find out the truth about ya's!!, its mind control and propaganda based on fear and guilt and ever dangling carrot of everlasting life....Then! thay have the balls to tell us that the sick get in London who abused children has changed his ways and was 'repentant' and is therefore still and undisfellowshipped JW!!
To a man everyone [inc. elders] have said that they wouldn't leave their kids with him, yet we're to believe he's changed???! baffling.
Then they'll let the pervert call on peoples houses with the advice from the Kingdom Ministry to look out for signs of children as a conversation starter! as if thats what HE'LL be thinking!

its insane.
sorry I'm ranting but I'm just so upset/cofused/angry in equal measure and no-one upon no-one will accept that the Society have dropped a ball. No-one will call them for not having the humility to accept they've done wrong and sincerely apolgise to us.

I'm starting to call them Jehovah's Ostriches...

[Juan]

As for the disfellowshipping of brothers and sisters in connection with this issue, well people here in Australia know nothing of the NGO issue, so they cant very well question something they don't know exists.[/b]

I am in Australia and I was disfellowshipped about the NGO issue.

[Peter]

I don't think that I can add much more to this thread or topic, its been thrashed about for the past six years. To my knowledge the elders are in a state of self denial. You can present them will firm evidence only to be told you need to focus on the 'bigger picture' and not to get yourself side tracked or weighed down by theses matters that we don't really understand, after all 'Mother' knows best. What they fail to realise is that the NGO affair is central to the big picture.

This weeks bible reading at Hosea (1-7) confirms to a large extent the issues anti-typical Israel face, and lets remember that Hosea uses the expression as do many of the prophets 'My people' a turn of phrase that you wont here in this weeks Bible highlights or any other bible highlight for that matter. (I real do wonder how the elders would explain the wording 'My people' if the application is to Christendom.) Hosea words are apt respecting the behaviour of the leadership of both ancient and modern day spiritual Israel:

"Hear the word of Jehovah, O sons of Israel, for Jehovah has a legal case with the inhabitants of the land, for there is no truth nor loving-kindness nor knowledge of God in the land. There are the pronouncing of curses and practicing of deception and murdering and stealing and committing of adultery that have broken forth, and acts of bloodshed have touched other acts of bloodshed."

The NGO springs to mind here "there is no truth [along with the] practicing of deception". The society is never going to admit to it and neither are the elders. Even though I have every respect for the elders that they work tirelessly for the flock they are still asleep. There are of course different types of elders with varying consciences, but few in my experience will question the society's policies and official line.

The NGO affair is a fact and not a piece of written fiction made up by disgruntles apostates. The "practicing of deception" has become all evident in this regard.


It's not out of the ordinary that the Bush administration won't have a full investigation into 9/11, too many uncomfortable questions, they just produced a report and we're all supposed to sit there like lame ducks and accept it. The same can be said of the Watchtower adulterous affair as an NGO and child abuse policy's, the society wont have a full investigation as the uncomfortable questioning wont sit well with the official line. Thus they carry on "practicing… deception".

If all the evidence was presented in a court of law the society wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The type of court that a brother would find himself when questioning and being questioned would be nothing but a kangaroo court. In other words 2 and 2 equal five and you have to accept it otherwise your out-

Beroean sprit I don't think so- its high time his came out into the open and laid to rest with a proper investigation. Why don't the society shut the mouths of it critics and produce a full report. No doubt for the same reasons why the Bush administration wont have a 9/11 investigation.

[Eli's Foe]

Benjamite II,

I do know how you feel, I assure you. Incidentally I chose the name "Eli's Foe" because Eli was in a position of God-given authority and he abused it, just like the GB and many elders in the congregations. I am opposed to the whole ethos behind the deception, mind control and hypocrisy of such ones hence I cringe when I am called Eli. Perhaps I should have chosen the name Samuel but frankly I am not as patient as he was!! lol

Doubting Thomas,

I assumed most participants on the DB were familiar with the Rand Cam military contracts and would appreciate the moral and ethical issues surrounding the case. My understanding was that the shares were in the name of the WTS but Mr McCann retained the voting rights. Hence as a beneficial owner the WTS enjoyed financial gain from military contracts. At the time they must have been aware of this.
The shares are now registered in the name of a trust, Mr McCann will be the settlor of that trust but the name of the beneficiaries is not a matter of public record. It is likely a charitable trust and the big question is - Are the WTS still receiving benefit?
Here is a link for further information. http://www.randytv.com/randcam.htm or http://www.watchtowernews.org/randcam.htm
I am sure you consider your investments carefully and in the light of a bible trained conscience, similarly if someone named you as a beneficiary of a trust, wouldn't you want to know that you were not receiving an income from tobacco, drugs, arms etc?
This is old news, but to those discovering the sins of the WTS for the first time, the news is still very relevant and to them, new.

EF

[Jeshurun]

The type of court that a brother would find himself when questioning and being questioned noyjing butkangaroo court with the outcome.[/b]

I think it's called the Sanhedrin.


Beroean sprit I don't think so- its high time his came out into the open and laid to rest with a proper investigation. Why don't the society shut the mouths of it critics and produce a full report. No doubt for the same reasons why the Bush administration wont have a 9/11 investigation.[/b]

Good analogy, but the Bush administration committed high treason against the people of the United States. The Watchtower commits adultery against Jehovah God and then compounds the situation by throwing his sheep into the ashpits of Gehenna (so they think) just for questioning them.


http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/images/religion/wolf-sheep.jpg (http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/Christian%20Bloodshed.pdf)

[Jahsdisciple]

I know this is an old topic,but having just jioned,Im curious about some of these older posts.
"Yet, the WT is asking us believe that nothing was required of them for the 10 years they were associated with the UN. "

What did they actually do that supported the UN ? Besides having a library card ? They had an affiliation on paper,but if they didnt actually support the UN in any way,i dont see the problem.

If I join a library,that doesnt mean I support the government in power at the time that runs it. If they got worried when later they saw how it might appear and they then tried to cover that up, I understand that also. You know how paranoid they are about not appearing to do anything that appears to be a "bad witness"

[Jeshurun]

I know this is an old topic,but having just jioned,Im curious about some of these older posts.
"Yet, the WT is asking us believe that nothing was required of them for the 10 years they were associated with the UN. "

What did they actually do that supported the UN ? Besides having a library card ? They had an affiliation on paper,but if they didnt actually support the UN in any way,i dont see the problem.

If I join a library,that doesnt mean I support the government in power at the time that runs it. If they got worried when later they saw how it might appear and they then tried to cover that up, I understand that also. You know how paranoid they are about not appearing to do anything that appears to be a "bad witness"[/b]

For ten years they published UN (New World Order) -supporting propaganda, extolling the virtues of the UN and many of its affiliates. It's interesting how they got nailed after 66 such articles in the Awake! magazines. They were also registered as an NGO which is in itself treason against Jehovah and HIS coming One-World Government. Then, they disfellowship anybody who dares not accept their lame and lying excuses for jumping into bed with the Beast, or for simply even bringing it up. (Typical of Pharisee behavior.)

I'm sure there will be more comments forthcoming. This subject has a tendency to pique vehemence (in a good way).

:Love:
Jesh

[Anthony]

Everyone always talks about this jumping into bed with the UN but I have never heard of what benefit it was to the WTS to do so.

[Gabriel]

What did they actually do that supported the UN ? Besides having a library card ? They had an affiliation on paper,but if they didnt actually support the UN in any way,i dont see the problem.

If I join a library,that doesnt mean I support the government in power at the time that runs it.[/b]

Jahs are you serious? as many times as we have heard stories of our brothers and sisters who have had their lives taken because they wouldnt so much as even sighn a piece of paper....demonstrating there absalute loyalty to father. They have been beaten, raped, slaughterd,thrown into camps....when all they had to do was sighn a little piece of paper to return home to their families.....and you say you dont get it? Humm.

[Jeshurun]

Everyone always talks about this jumping into bed with the UN but I have never heard of what benefit it was to the WTS to do so.[/b]

Strange, isn't it?

Is it fear? Lack of trust in Jehovah? Behind-the-scenes involvement with the NWO? Satanic infiltration of the Watchtower? All of the above? (And then some.)

Even Jehovah speaks of the strangeness of it:

Ezekiel 16:34 And in your case the opposite thing takes place from that of other women in your acts of prostitution, and after your style no prostitution has been committed, even in your giving hire when no hire has been given to you, and so it occurs in the opposite way.'

There are actually many benefits the Watchtower reaps from being friends with the Beast (other than being paid directly), but I'm going to let the others vent a little first.

Jesh

[billy]

<div class='quotemain'>The type of court that a brother would find himself when questioning and being questioned noyjing butkangaroo court with the outcome.[/b]

I think it&#39;s called the Sanhedrin.


Beroean sprit I don&#39;t think so- its high time his came out into the open and laid to rest with a proper investigation. Why don&#39;t the society shut the mouths of it critics and produce a full report. No doubt for the same reasons why the Bush administration wont have a 9/11 investigation.[/b]

Good analogy, but the Bush administration committed high treason against the people of the United States. The Watchtower commits adultery against Jehovah God and then compounds the situation by throwing his sheep into the ashpits of Gehenna (so they think) just for questioning them.


http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/images/religion/wolf-sheep.jpg (http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/Christian%20Bloodshed.pdf)
[/b][/quote]


Hi Jesh

I just clicked on this very interesting picture and a pdf file came up with pages of the human slaughter of chirstendom over the last 2000 years - i was never aware of the degree of millions on millions of people being murdered, tortured and mutilated in the name of Christ Jesus - its absolutly shocking!

[Jahsdisciple]

I have never read an article where the WTS has supported the UN,so please show me one. The only ones i have read are where they say it will be destroyed by Jah.

Gabriel,the cards you refer to are &#39;political party cards&#39; which is very differant and I really doubt they would sign one of those. These stipulate that you support a political party. The WTS has never said that in any form.

Jesh,NGO stands for NON Government Organisation,so how can that comprimise their stand on supporting a government since they are saying they are a NON goverment orgainsation ?

[Sketch]

Jesh,NGO stands for NON Government Organisation,so how can that comprimise their stand on supporting a government since they are saying they are a NON goverment orgainsation ?[/b]

It has to do with the agreement they signed 10 years in a row to support the UN and spread its propaganda to become and renw their NGO status. oh, and then there is the whole library card lie. uh.... lemme see... oh, the fact that they are involved to the point where they are trying to get laws passed - thats definately political.... there is so much more... where to begin?

[Jeshurun]

Hi Jesh

I just clicked on this very interesting picture and a pdf file came up with pages of the human slaughter of chirstendom over the last 2000 years - i was never aware of the degree of millions on millions of people being murdered, tortured and mutilated in the name of Christ Jesus - its absolutly shocking![/b]

I didn&#39;t realize that pdf was linked to the pic, but I did download it and read it when you pointed it out. I did know about most of these things, that&#39;s why I have a hard time understanding how 144,000 are chosen out of all these millions and millions of martyrs who were slaughtered for being Christians. One thing that I firmly believe though is that they will all be receiving a resurrection of the righteous. They have not died in vain by any means. Instead, they have all followed in the footsteps of their Lord and Master Jesus and have done their part in condemning Satan as a liar and the loser of the Great Legal Case.

:Love:
Jesh

[James]

<div align="center">The Watchtower and the NGO Controversy

The Watchtower as an NGO (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-ngo.html)

Strange Bedfellows: The Watchtower and the United Nations (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-strange-bedfellows.html)

Plumbing the Depths of the Watchtower&#39;s Prostitution (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-prostitution.html)

Supplemental Information: (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-prostitution-awake-supplemental.html)Awake! The Facts (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-prostitution-awake-supplemental.html)

Commentary on Watchtower&#39;s NGO Statement (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/watchtower-ngo-statement-response.html)





brotherly love,
James



















</div>

[Jeshurun]

Jesh,NGO stands for NON Government Organisation,so how can that comprimise their stand on supporting a government since they are saying they are a NON goverment orgainsation ?[/b]

JD, this essay will help:

http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-un...ations-ngo.html (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-ngo.html)

:Love:
Jesh

Edited in: Oops, Brother James beat me to it, by 4 milliseconds I think.

[FGM]

Even after finding out about this UN NGO situation just over a year and a half ago ( I was a bit slow to delve into the information on the internet) I am still in two minds. No doubt all of you are familiar with "Third Witness" site that refutes such claims in detail, as well as others that condemn it outright.
When there is any doubt as to whether something entered into is questionable is the deliberateness of the action. In this case was the affiliation deliberate? Did someone/some in the GB or in the WT actually sit down and decide "let&#39;s join the UN and make an alliance with Satan through this affiliation. We want to be a part of Satans Organisation". Or was it the result of misguided thinking on the part of the WT in order to benefit fron the research at the library that should have been considered more carefully.
I don&#39;t think that we will ever know for sure. But Jehovah knows.
My main beef is why were we not informed about this through the publications or at least by some kind of letter to the congregations. My first inkling of this came when someone I work with brought up the topic after they read about it on the net. I was asked my opinion but I didn&#39;t have a clue what he was talking about. Until that time I never doubted the way the society was run. On researching I must say I was quite shocked to find out a lot of information that I didn&#39;t know. I asked some in my congregation about it. They didn&#39;t have a clue what I was talking about. It was embarrassing to say the least. I had no answer for what had happened. Surely this is something that should have been explained to all, openly, so that we can deal with the question without feeling that it is being hidden from us.
That for me is the bone of contention. I still meet many witnesses who have never even heard about it. I could say a lot more but &#39;nuf for now.
So I am leaving it Jehovah&#39;s hands. He will determine the degree of reprehensibility.

[Jahsdisciple]

FGM has a good point,"When there is any doubt as to whether something entered into is questionable is the deliberateness of the action." I think they started down a path and didnt realise where it would lead or how it would be construed by others. They wanted to stop persecution of Jws in some countries and they saw that as a way to do it.
</span>
As for the link:
http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-un...ations-ngo.html (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-ngo.html)

"Evidently that issue of the Awake! was submitted to the United Nations by the Watchtower Society and is listed on the UNCHR web site (http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm) along with many other NGO supporters of the UN."

"Evidently".. I think if someone is going to say this is proof they had better make sure this IS true before implying it was submitted to the UN as proof of support. If the article did say the UN is trying to support human rights,whats wrong in saying that ?. The only reason it looks bad is because someone has said that it was submitted as proof of support.

"the Watchtower&#39;s status as an NGO gave them political clout and was useful in currying favor with governments where our work has been under ban."

Since we have no REAL proof of what they did to "support" the UN,what they did was use the organisation to try and stop the banning of their work in certain countries.

"useful in currying favor with governments"...wheres the proof of this ?
I see this as another way to stop the mistreament of JWs in certain countries like the using the supreme court to make rulings on freedom of religious expression.

If they could use the peer preasure of the UN on the offending country ("if you want to join,then you must stop this")that would change that countries attitude,whats the problem ? Who said WTS approached these offending Governments to &#39;curry favor" Where is the proof of this ?

The using of peer preasure through the UN is probably what has happened. So until we see evidence of any "currying",lets no presume there was.

As for them withdrawing their member ship,they probably did this because they could see how some would think this appeared. They didnt want to stumble others by how this appeared and so withdrew it.

Lets presume the best of people. They have sacrificed their lives to serve Jah,so why would they deliberately do something to bring shame on Jah or comprimise their standing with Him.

In the same link above,its goes on to show the WTS getting it wrong about the 2 Kings...so what ! this doesnt support the argument of their being wrong, thats a seperate issue,so why include as if the issues are the same thing.

The early 12 thought some wrong things about JCs kingdom appearing in their lifetime and if you had of been living/following the 12 at that time, you no doubt would have been influenced by their wrong understanding. "After all,the were directly chosen by JC". Being wrong about prophecy is nothing new and proves nothing about weather their action with the UN is a pattern of some sort.

[Jinnvisible]

Sounds like you`ve got some facts to grind

[SlaveForJah]

FGM and Jahsdisciple,

Greetings in Christ. May I suggest that you both read the following thread from last September dealing with this issue. After reading the ordeal of Brother Jones, I have a feeling you may see things a bit differently than the crowd over at Al&#39;s board, for most of whom, unfortunately, factual evidence means very little in the face of a good spin-doctoring campaign. I think Brant has a better perspective on this than most. May we all learn from his trial. Like DT, I have felt the need to personally seek Jehovah&#39;s forgiveness for my complicity in this matter.

Here&#39;s the link: Amazing Flip Flop (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=767&hl=)
Pay particular attention to the Society&#39;s letter to Brother Jones, and posts #4, #8, and #9. I hope this helps.


Agape

SlaveForJah


ps - May Jehovah&#39;s Spirit heal Brant&#39;s wounds

[PRAYSER]

In all of our studies about the founding of the League of Nations at the end of the Great War (WWI)
the Society never fails to remind us that Jesus Christ the chose the Watch Tower affiliated Bible Students as his sole channel of communications and only true church/Jehovah&#39;s Organization because of their support for Jehovah&#39;s kingdom (which in those days was ruling since 1878, Christ being present
1874), while all of "Christiandom" was condemned because the Federal Council of Churches in the USA
passed a resolution praising the League as the "political expression of the kingdom of God on earth".

(Google the Federal Council of Churches to see who they represented, and how many denominations,
were they the liberal or conservative churches in the USA).

(re: "Watch Tower affiliated Bible Students"; some of the Bible Students had broken with CT Russell
and the Watch Tower Society over CT Russells false teaching that the New Covenant does not apply
to CHRISTIANS, but to the JEWS. Plus a false teaching about the atonement sacrifice being not just Jesus, but also the 144,000 [1907 was a very interesting year]). These were and still are classified as "apostate" for rejecting a false teaching that all Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses now reject.

Although the Federal Council of Churches (USA) praised the League of Nations, the US Senate
refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles/Paris Peace Conference - 1919, preventing the USA from
joining the League. What the Watch Tower Society has never bothered to comment on is "why did
the US Senate prevent the USA from joining an institution to ensure world peace that was proposed
vigorously promoted the by the President of the USA, Woodrow Wilson.

W.E. Vine (whose Biblical scholarship has been quoted extensively by the Society) and other
conservative evangelical ministers/theologians identified the League as the Scarlet Beast/Anti-Christ
Organization of the book of Revelation. The conservative churches launches their 1st ever political mobilization to defeat President Woodrow Wilson&#39;s national campaign to pressure the US Senate
to ratify.
The conservative evangelical churches still oppose the United Nations Organization.

The Watch Tower Society which was teaching the falsehood that the PAPACY/POPE was the
"image of the beast" mentioned the League in passing in a complimentary way, but gave it no Biblical/
Prophetic significance.

In 1926 the JUDGE JF Rutherford plagiarized another one of Christiandom&#39;s teachings : the League
of Nations is the image of the beast / scarlet colored beast of Revelation.


DJABRIL

[PRAYSER]

The League of Nations did not have and the United Nations Organization does not have the authority to place ANYONE under compulsion to receive it&#39;s mark (if it even has one), nor does it have the authority to prevent ANYONE from engaging in commercial activity (buying and selling) unless
they accept the mark of the United Nations Organization.

The Watch Tower Organization ( whom you know by now I will not defend ) committed no sin by
becoming a Non-Governmental Organization affiliate of the United Nations Organization. Publishing articles in the AWAKE magazine about positive activities and programs of the UN, of which there are
many, is likewise no compromise of integrity, nor is it a sin against Jehovah God.
The WTO&#39;s motives for it&#39;s affiliation with with the UN were good: gain legal recognization for Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses and help Witness refugees in Africa and other places.

The SIN of the Watch Tower Organization is the one that it is most often guilty of: HYPOCRICY -lying and the practice of deception, especially in their dealings with Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses in the congregations.

Outside of North Korea no nation on earth demands that is citizens worship the state, nor the head of state, and so most of the Society&#39;s teachings with regard to dealing with governments/ political entites/organizations/systems are merely the teachings of men.

When we get to the GREAT TRIBULATION we wont need to ask "are we there yet".

When Christ assumes authority over the earth and Satan is cast down to the earth Satan will let us know by trying to destroy us.

When the BEAST has the authority to place everyone under compulsion to receive it&#39;s mark or be
prohibited from buying and selling / earning an income / work or starve, the BEAST will tell us what
time it is by giving us the option to comply or die/starve/be killed.

The Watch Tower Society has applied the prophecies prematurely.
From 1799 to 1914 under CT Russell.
From 1914 to the present/"very soon", under JF Rutherford/NH Knorr/FW Franz/Governing Body.

No one knows the DAY nor the HOUR nor the TIMES nor the SEASONS that the FATHER/JEHOVAH GOD has placed under HIS OWN JURISDICTION.
In other words: IT&#39;S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!!!

DJABRIL

[PRAYSER]

Regarding stock ownership/investing.

If you wish to be a politically correct so-called conscientious investor, and especially avoid
every corporation with military contracts:
Avoid CHRYSLER, FORD, and GM.
If you are employed by any the above QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
Avoid owning shares or working for all major FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, (BANKS, BROKERAGE FIRMS, INSURANCE COMPANIES), DUMP those 401K&#39;s and QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
Less we forget, the people in the military eat and most of our food and their food comes from the
same agri-businesses, who are also under contract to the military, DUMP those STOCKS and QUIT
YOUR JOBS NOW.
Did I forget to mention that most MUTUAL FUNDS and PENSION FUNDS invest in corporations that
own shares in companys that have military contracts. DUMP those FUNDS and QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
You don&#39;t use any petroleum or petroleum based/petroleum derived products by any chance, I bet
it never occured to you that EXXON and all major energy companies have military contracts. WOW!
DUMP those STOCKS and QUIT YOUR JOB NOW. Moving to Amish country any time soon?

If someone gives you stock who&#39;s business is it how long you hold those shares?

The Watch Tower Society is getting it&#39;s just comeuppance after all those decades of condemning
the CHURCHES, especially the VATICAN for their stock portfolio.

DJABRIL
Investor since 1980.

[EmmaKay]

Regarding stock ownership/investing.

If you wish to be a politically correct so-called conscientious investor, and especially avoid
every corporation with military contracts:
Avoid CHRYSLER, FORD, and GM.
If you are employed by any the above QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
Avoid owning shares or working for all major FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, (BANKS, BROKERAGE FIRMS, INSURANCE COMPANIES), DUMP those 401K&#39;s and QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
Less we forget, the people in the military eat and most of our food and their food comes from the
same agri-businesses, who are also under contract to the military, DUMP those STOCKS and QUIT
YOUR JOBS NOW.
Did I forget to mention that most MUTUAL FUNDS and PENSION FUNDS invest in corporations that
own shares in companys that have military contracts. DUMP those FUNDS and QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
You don&#39;t use any petroleum or petroleum based/petroleum derived products by any chance, I bet
it never occured to you that EXXON and all major energy companies have military contracts. WOW!
DUMP those STOCKS and QUIT YOUR JOB NOW. Moving to Amish country any time soon?

If someone gives you stock who&#39;s business is it how long you hold those shares?

The Watch Tower Society is getting it&#39;s just comeuppance after all those decades of condemning
the CHURCHES, especially the VATICAN for their stock portfolio.

DJABRIL
Investor since 1980.[/b]

Excellent points....This one especially, because I think people are very quick to point fingers about such things.
If you want to get real picky about things....you could go as far as saying, you shouldn&#39;t buy anything because then you could be supporting a business that has government association, it all runs downhill. amish starts to sound like the way to go! lol Although black really isn&#39;t my color and I have no clue how to raise barns...
I agree that the WTS has a terrible habit of condeming everyone else but themselves. But they will be judged just as they have judged.


Anways.... AMISH FTW!!!!!! :P

Love,
EmmaKay

[troubled heart]

<div class='quotemain'>Regarding stock ownership/investing.

If you wish to be a politically correct so-called conscientious investor, and especially avoid
every corporation with military contracts:
Avoid CHRYSLER, FORD, and GM.
If you are employed by any the above QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
Avoid owning shares or working for all major FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, (BANKS, BROKERAGE FIRMS, INSURANCE COMPANIES), DUMP those 401K&#39;s and QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
Less we forget, the people in the military eat and most of our food and their food comes from the
same agri-businesses, who are also under contract to the military, DUMP those STOCKS and QUIT
YOUR JOBS NOW.
Did I forget to mention that most MUTUAL FUNDS and PENSION FUNDS invest in corporations that
own shares in companys that have military contracts. DUMP those FUNDS and QUIT YOUR JOBS NOW.
You don&#39;t use any petroleum or petroleum based/petroleum derived products by any chance, I bet
it never occured to you that EXXON and all major energy companies have military contracts. WOW!
DUMP those STOCKS and QUIT YOUR JOB NOW. Moving to Amish country any time soon?

If someone gives you stock who&#39;s business is it how long you hold those shares?

The Watch Tower Society is getting it&#39;s just comeuppance after all those decades of condemning
the CHURCHES, especially the VATICAN for their stock portfolio.

DJABRIL
Investor since 1980.[/b]

Excellent points....This one especially, because I think people are very quick to point fingers about such things.
If you want to get real picky about things....you could go as far as saying, you shouldn&#39;t buy anything because then you could be supporting a business that has government association, it all runs downhill. amish starts to sound like the way to go! lol Although black really isn&#39;t my color and I have no clue how to raise barns...
I agree that the WTS has a terrible habit of condeming everyone else but themselves. But they will be judged just as they have judged.


Anways.... AMISH FTW!!!!!! :P

Love,
EmmaKay
[/b][/quote]



ummm....i like my job :icon_redface:

[billy]

Interesting comments Prayser - very thought provoking

I agree with you Emmakay - the problem in the wto is they are too puffed up with themselves and condecending - when the judgements they pour out to the world and chrisendom are shone back at them - they dont appear much different - so they should humble themselves and stop bragging - i have found this same attitude amongst the brotherhood - they are so judgemental and self righteous and turning their noses up at everyone that they fail to see how inadequete they are and that the ones they condemn can be showing masses more christian love then they do - sounds familiar - i think i&#39;ve read of a similar situation in Jesus day

[Jahsdisciple]

Watchman,
i would appreciate an explanation to the points i mentioned in my last post regarding your &#39;evidence&#39; in the link,since you say this points to an "adulterous relationship with the world?." That a serious thing to say !

[stayawake]

Hi JD
this should hold you James 4 :4 .
love stayawake

[Jahsdisciple]

Quoting a scripture is not an answer to accusations of adultery.

[stayawake]

Dear JD
I hope you realize we are speaking of spiritual adultry

That James 4 :4 was more then just a quoted scripture. It was written under inspiration as the explanation as to Gods view of just what spiritual adultry is.

Just what do you disagree with in that quote ?
Keep in mind the FDS claims to be the Bride of Christ.
Did they keep themselves spotless from the world ? No !they became Unfaithful or like James says they became adultresses.
love stayawake

[TheCook]

Watchman,
i would appreciate an explanation to the points i mentioned in my last post regarding your &#39;evidence&#39; in the link,since you say this points to an "adulterous relationship with the world?." That a serious thing to say ![/b]

I would like to point you, brother, to some essays on the issue:

http://e-watchman.com/watchman-essays-collection.html

Look under the headline about WT and NGO.

There is also the commentary about the same issue:

http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/watchtower-un-truth.html

There was also a podcast that dealt with this topic, I don&#39;t remember if it was the lastest one, or the next to latest one, maybe somebody else remembers? You can find these at:

http://www.e-jehovahs-witness.com/

Love, The Cook

[Jinnvisible]

Quoting a scripture is not an answer to accusations of adultery.[/b]

It depends on what kind of evidence you require.

If you require a signed statement with the watchtower logo, signed by a governing body member; stating "We indeed entered volutarily into an association with the Nations, agreeing to promote the aims of the nations ~ which equates to spiritual adultary".

Then you might have to wait a while. Although everything except the bit in red has already been openly established without denial.

For instance Jahsdiciple, can you prove to me that you are really a human person and not just a computer program designed to respond to certain words an phrases ? Can you prove to me that George w. Bush is not a CGI simulation ? Can you please prove to me that white is white Jahsdisciple ? Thats easy isnt it ? Every one knows that White is white, so prove it! The fact that everyone reasonably testifys to the fact that white is white, is what makes it so unneccesarry to prove. Q.E.D. the more obvious something is, the more difficult it can be to prove because there is little relative reference.

So what happens when people think and act only according to thier expectations is that they stop being reasonable. Stop reasoning. It is the end of reason.

[Candace]

http://www.e-jehovahs-witness.com/2007/09/...atchtower-.html (http://www.e-jehovahs-witness.com/2007/09/the-watchtower-.html)

That&#39;s the link to the podcast posted on Sept. 26, 2007 called The Watchtower as an NGO.

I&#39;m pretty sure that&#39;s the podcast The Cook was referring to.

Jahsdisciple, after you listen to the podcast I&#39;d be interested to hear your comments. ;)

[Jahsdisciple]

Obviously those responding to my asking Watchman a reply,have not read the points i raised. Dont accuse someone of adultery based on terms such as:

http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-un...ations-ngo.html (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-ngo.html)

"Evidently that issue of the Awake! was submitted to the United Nations by the Watchtower Society and is listed on the UNCHR web site (http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm) along with many other NGO supporters of the UN."

"Evidently".. I think if someone is going to say this is proof they had better make sure this IS true before implying it was submitted to the UN as proof of support. If the article did say the UN is trying to support human rights,whats wrong in saying that ?. The only reason it looks bad is because someone has said that it was submitted as proof of support.

"the Watchtower&#39;s status as an NGO gave them political clout and was useful in currying favor with governments where our work has been under ban."

Since we have no REAL proof of what they did to "support" the UN,what they did was use the organisation to try and stop the banning of their work in certain countries."

As for the podcast listed by candace,these are merely his views.

One example: He said that the Awake didnt highlight any other org like the UN. The awake ignored Japan and the red cross. BUT are these orgs going to be the ones to destroy B the G ? NO. So wouldnt it be interesting to follow the inner workings and see what this org does in its lead up to Jahs bidding ? What is the development of this org even over 10 years? Good points. If its trying to do certain things,why will it then destroy B the G ? Since it will be playing this pivotal role in prophecy and history,I think the attention is valid.

These orgs arent of interest to those following bible events and the Awake mentions all these things about the UN,I think thats relevant.

Robert then dismissed the callers point that the articles mentioned that the UN will be destroyed by Jah and is mankinds only hope. Why did he do that ? Because thats what he wants to see. If the article mentions this,then obviously its saying it cannot back the Un over Jahs kingdom.

I see why those articles were written and so did the caller !

Thats why i asked watchman to explain the points Ive copied in this reply.

If you say that article was submitted as proof of support,where is the proof this happened ? Where is the evidence of this actual "submitting" this article to the UN ? There is none and this is why Watchman said "evidently"

"Evidently " cannot be submitted as proof.Thats a serious thing to say.
Thats Watchmans views based on what he wants to see.

And then to say they &#39;curried favor&#39; with the other members of the Un is utter rubbish...where is the proof of this interaction...maybe they applied preasure through the UN for these nations to stop what they are doing in violating human rights and freedom of religion,but thats not the same as "currying favour" with these members.

[EmmaKay]

Obviously those responding to my asking Watchman a reply,have not read the points i raised. Dont accuse someone of adultery based on terms such as:

http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-un...ations-ngo.html (http://e-watchman.com/essays/watchtower-united-nations-ngo.html)

"Evidently that issue of the Awake! was submitted to the United Nations by the Watchtower Society and is listed on the UNCHR web site (http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm) along with many other NGO supporters of the UN."

"Evidently".. I think if someone is going to say this is proof they had better make sure this IS true before implying it was submitted to the UN as proof of support. If the article did say the UN is trying to support human rights,whats wrong in saying that ?. The only reason it looks bad is because someone has said that it was submitted as proof of support.

"the Watchtower&#39;s status as an NGO gave them political clout and was useful in currying favor with governments where our work has been under ban."

Since we have no REAL proof of what they did to "support" the UN,what they did was use the organisation to try and stop the banning of their work in certain countries."

As for the podcast listed by candace,these are merely his views.

One example: He said that the Awake didnt highlight any other org like the UN. The awake ignored Japan and the red cross. BUT are these orgs going to be the ones to destroy B the G ? NO. So wouldnt it be interesting to follow the inner workings and see what this org does in its lead up to Jahs bidding ? What is the development of this org even over 10 years? Good points. If its trying to do certain things,why will it then destroy B the G ? Since it will be playing this pivotal role in prophecy and history,I think the attention is valid.

These orgs arent of interest to those following bible events and the Awake mentions all these things about the UN,I think thats relevant.

Robert then dismissed the callers point that the articles mentioned that the UN will be destroyed by Jah and is mankinds only hope. Why did he do that ? Because thats what he wants to see. If the article mentions this,then obviously its saying it cannot back the Un over Jahs kingdom.

I see why those articles were written and so did the caller !

Thats why i asked watchman to explain the points Ive copied in this reply.

If you say that article was submitted as proof of support,where is the proof this happened ? Where is the evidence of this actual "submitting" this article to the UN ? There is none and this is why Watchman said "evidently"

"Evidently " cannot be submitted as proof.Thats a serious thing to say.
Thats Watchmans views based on what he wants to see.

And then to say they &#39;curried favor&#39; with the other members of the Un is utter rubbish...where is the proof of this interaction...maybe they applied preasure through the UN for these nations to stop what they are doing in violating human rights and freedom of religion,but thats not the same as "currying favour" with these members.[/b]

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p19/utwt/NGOinterests.jpg next to the WTBTS information you&#39;ll see "SUBJ: HR (human rights) REL (Religious freedom) DIS (Disarmament) and YTH (Children and Youth)...these are things they have interest in that they "Evidently" put on their original application, as it asks what interests they want to pursue.

http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/joint/commttee/j2444.pdf read pages 124-141...So is this enough "evidence" to show that they used their NGO affiliation to further human rights?
And as for "evidently" being the choice word...the WTBTS HAD to put things in their articles in support of the UN just to be able to maintain their NGO status...that&#39;s in the criteria for even joining.

All I am saying here....is that it definitely sounds that way...with the proof I found with in a few moments of actually searching for it....So I need to ask you JD, are you NOT seeing what you don&#39;t want to see? So what do you consider an "Adulterous relationship"?
They did not rely upon Jehovah to do what they needed, so they went to the UN to get help.
It does not look like they simply registered for a library card, and that was their reply to everyone that inquired about it, so they LIED, why???? Were they trying to cover something up??? Why wouldn&#39;t they just come out with the truth???? If it&#39;s not so bad to use the UN to put pressure on countries so they can further their work, why not just say so???? Because it&#39;s WRONG.
And further, maybe they don&#39;t "curry favor" with people individually or even the governments, but they certainly sought help to resolve issues that they couldn&#39;t and they didn&#39;t rely upon Jehovah to resolve for them. I highly doubt Jehovah blessed them when they joined this organization when it has absolute affiliation with the UN and was even invented by the UN "The scarlet colored beast" of revelation. THEY TURNED TO WORLDLY GOVERNMENTS TO DO IT!!!!! Sounds like a familiar story in the bible.... Regardless of this information...you&#39;re going to see it however you want.
I hope this helps you JD on your journey to finding the truth.

Sisterly love,
EmmaKay

[Jahsdisciple]

Emmakay"Sounds like a familiar story in the bible.... Regardless of this information...you&#39;re going to see it however you want. "
Pot,kettle,black.

[EmmaKay]

Emmakay"Sounds like a familiar story in the bible.... Regardless of this information...you&#39;re going to see it however you want. "
Pot,kettle,black.[/b]


I&#39;m throwing your words back at you and you say "pot, kettle, black"....*stumped*

[TheCook]

A question to you, brother JD:

If the association between the WTBTS and UN was not wrong in any way, why have some many brothers and sisters (faithful b/s, mind you) reacted so strongly? And when they did, why didn&#39;t they get a straight answer? If it wasn&#39;t a capital mistake, why didn&#39;t the WTBTS issue a public statement where they simply explained their decisions and apologized for upsetting so many?

What&#39;s missing?

[Candace]

Robert has brought out before that the Society was not required to write favorable articles about the UN, but to simply disseminate information about their programs and aims. Did the Society do that, yes or no?

The Awake! magazine is a journal that is supposed to be politically neutral. As Robert has pointed out, it has not remained neutral. In order to be considered neutral the Awake! would have had to give equal time to other human rights organizations, or other organizations devoted to social issues. Can you statistically prove that they did? Or do the statistics show that the UN and related entities like UNESCO, were mentioned far more predominantly than say the Red Cross, or other organizations that deliver humanitarian services? If you have the WT cdrom search the terms United Nations, Red Cross, Green Peace, Amnesty International and see what you come up with.

From their Who We Are page: "The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement is the world&#39;s largest humanitarian network. The Movement is neutral and impartial, and provides protection and assistance to people affected by disasters and conflicts."

Why does the Red Cross receive so little attention compared to the UN? It seems like if the Society was merely keeping us informed then there would not be this huge imbalance in reporting in regard to the UN and Red Cross.

Long before I ever ran across Robert&#39;s site I noticed the attention given to different UN "Year of the (fill in the blank)" campaigns and how they were coordinated with special articles, sometimes even a series of articles.

July 22, 2001 Awake! Helping Hands are Everywhere This article promotes the UN&#39;s 2001 "International Year of Volunteers." The Awake! is supposed to "build confidence in the Creator&#39;s promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things." The Helping Hands article is clearly promoting the UN&#39;s campaign for volunteerism. I don&#39;t see one shred of evidence that this article builds confidence in Jehovah, his coming Kingdom, or the need to look to our Creator instead of human governments. (Psalm 118:9, 146:3-5)

Take a look at the December 8, 2000 Awake! The Problems of Children—The Solution at Last!. It disseminates a lot of information about the UN&#39;s campaign, and even makes it appear that God&#39;s Kingdom is working in a spirit of cooperation with the UN to achieve these goals. How misleading is that?

Quote from page 11:

"Under God’s Kingdom humans will be enabled to rear children in a balanced way. (Job 33:24-26) Young folks will be raised in the spirit of peace and universal brotherhood, the ideal set forth in the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child. (Psalm 46:8, 9) Never again will there be the need for an International Year of the Child or for a Convention on the Rights of the Child."

What a great tool for Satan to use to make people in general think good thoughts about the UN and supporting its goals for humankind. Merge God&#39;s Kingdom with the beast, so that people will think taking the mark of the beast is a good thing to do.

When the Society agreed to start disseminating information for the UN they did more than just disseminate it, they fashioned the articles to present the UN in a favorable light and as working towards the same goals as God&#39;s Kingdom, thus confusing the issue between human governments and God&#39;s Kingdom government. How convenient for Satan.

[Candace]

As for the podcast listed by candace,these are merely his views.

One example: He said that the Awake didnt highlight any other org like the UN. The awake ignored Japan and the red cross. BUT are these orgs going to be the ones to destroy B the G ? NO. So wouldnt it be interesting to follow the inner workings and see what this org does in its lead up to Jahs bidding ? What is the development of this org even over 10 years? Good points. If its trying to do certain things,why will it then destroy B the G ? Since it will be playing this pivotal role in prophecy and history,I think the attention is valid.

These orgs arent of interest to those following bible events and the Awake mentions all these things about the UN,I think thats relevant.

Robert then dismissed the callers point that the articles mentioned that the UN will be destroyed by Jah and is mankinds only hope. Why did he do that ? Because thats what he wants to see. If the article mentions this,then obviously its saying it cannot back the Un over Jahs kingdom.

I see why those articles were written and so did the caller !

Thats why i asked watchman to explain the points Ive copied in this reply.[/b]

Sorry, I didn&#39;t clearly address this issue you raised. If the Awake! magazines were clearly showing how the UN is going to be used by Jehovah in getting rid of all false religion, then yes, I would agree with the point you are trying to make. But that&#39;s not the case, is it? Do you see the Awake! magazines explaining how the UN is going to turn on false religion? I don&#39;t.

The Society teaches that Matt. 24:15 applies to Christendom, because Christendom is the most reprehensible part of BtG. Is that true? No, it&#39;s not.

(Daniel 11:31) . . .And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. “And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.

(Matthew 24:15-22) . . .“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju‧de′a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

What do you understand is going to happen when the sanctuary is profaned?

Can you see how this partnership with the UN has provided a really great tool for Satan? Can you see how the WTBTS jumping into bed with the beast might play out when the sanctuary is profaned?

I don&#39;t think that the Awake! articles are showing the UN from Jehovah&#39;s viewpoint, or that the articles help us to see how the UN will be doing Jehovah&#39;s bidding in regard to false religion. I think the articles are being used by Satan to confuse the issues and blur the truth.

[Jinnvisible]

Emmakay"Sounds like a familiar story in the bible.... Regardless of this information...you&#39;re going to see it however you want. "
Pot,kettle,black.[/b]

How ironic.


Obviously those responding to my asking Watchman a reply have not read the points i raised.[/b]

You are wrong - straight off. Your points have been read. Perhaps you have not understood the extent of the implications in the responses.


Don&#39;t accuse someone of adultery based on terms such as:

"Evidently that issue of the Awake! was submitted to the United Nations by the Watchtower Society and is listed on the UNCHR web site (http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm) along with many other NGO supporters of the UN."

"Evidently".. I think if someone is going to say this is proof they had better make sure this IS true before implying it was submitted to the UN as proof of support. If the article did say the UN is trying to support human rights,whats wrong in saying that ?. The only reason it looks bad is because someone has said that it was submitted as proof of support.[/b]

The word "evidently" pertains to ~evidence~. Why are there four gospels? When one would do? Its true that the books of Kings echo some events reported in the books of Samuel, yet no where else in the bible are there four such extensive accounts as with the gospels. Hence the gospel&#39;s are only `proof` in as much as they are `evidence`. They are witness testimonials like in a court case. Four distinct testimonial witness statements to the truth. If the gospel was intended to be accepted as proof then why have more than one account? The accounts are presented as evidence! Whether a person accepts the gospels as proof of Jesus depends upon their reasonability and the truth that exists (or does not exist) within them. Hence you do not prove that Jesus was the Messiah like you prove that water boils at 100 degrees, rather you show evidence that appeals to understanding, reasonability, and truth that so accords with personal experience of the world and human nature. If you apply a different standard to prove spiritual idolatry then it seems to suggest that you have already placed the occurrence of spiritual idolatry [among the association of believers] beyond the realms of possible fact and into the realm of `the world`. The world generally requires scientific or absolute literary evidence to believe anything has real tangibility, (or other short term realizations). Hence it seems that having taken this position you are acting on expectations and preconceptions rather than evidence, it being you who have already made your mind up.


"Evidently".. I think if someone is going to say this is proof they had better make sure this IS true before implying it was submitted to the UN as proof of support[/b]

The distinction that you are attempting to make is moot. If you accept that the WTBTS voluntarily became an associate of the U.N. (which it has admitted to), and part of this agreement included submitting copyrighted published works then you are making a `non-distinction`.

It would be an absurdity to suggest that the WT agreed to a DPI partnership [that included submitting publications] and then actualy question whether an Awake publication, presented on the U.N. website and published within the timeframe of the partnership was "REALLY SUBMITTED".

What is the alternative? That the Watchtower agreed to the terms of the partnership yet never really sent any publications to the U.N. and the U.N. just unfairly;

`stole them - with permission?`

[Jinnvisible]

"the Watchtower&#39;s status as an NGO gave them political clout and was useful in currying favor with governments where our work has been under ban."

Since we have no REAL proof of what they did to "support" the UN,what they did was use the organisation to try and stop the banning of their work in certain countries."[/b]

I can&#39;t see that it really matters whether the WTBTS`s "Support" for the U.N. was effective or not. The U.N. has not as of yet required the Watchtowers support in order to exist. The Watchtower society signed on as associate to the U.N. As regards to the banning of the work you might equate that with King Hezekiah&#39;s stripping the temple doors of gold and offering it to the Egyptian&#39;s to placate them. Hezekiah does not seem to have been directly punished for this although it was obviously not the right way to go.


As for the podcast listed by candace,these are merely his views. [/b]

You are again incorrect. E-Watchman represents my views and others in this matter, by volition.


One example: He said that the Awake didnt highlight any other org like the UN. The awake ignored Japan and the red cross. BUT are these orgs going to be the ones to destroy B the G ? NO. So wouldnt it be interesting to follow the inner workings and see what this org does in its lead up to Jahs bidding ? What is the development of this org even over 10 years? Good points. If its trying to do certain things,why will it then destroy B the G ? Since it will be playing this pivotal role in prophecy and history,I think the attention is valid.

These orgs arent of interest to those following bible events and the Awake mentions all these things about the UN,I think thats relevant.[/b]

There is some validity to what you say here. The United Nation does plays a pivitol role in prophesy and hence there it is appropriate to report on that. However to do so in the context of an agreement with the U.N. is not a prerequisite. You might appropriately report on the activities of Satanist heavy metal head bangers in the Awake but you don&#39;t have to do so under agreement with them.


Robert then dismissed the callers point that the articles mentioned that the UN will be destroyed by Jah and is mankinds only hope. Why did he do that ? Because thats what he wants to see. If the article mentions this,then obviously its saying it cannot back the Un over Jahs kingdom.

I see why those articles were written and so did the caller ![/b]
`Why the articals where written` You mean intent ? Like Uzzah.

<span style="font-family:Arial">2 Samuel 6:6-7 Uz´zah now thrust his hand out to the ark of the true God and grabbed hold of it, for the cattle nearly caused an upset.

At that Jehovah&#39;s anger blazed against Uz´zah and the true God struck him down there for the irreverent act, so that he died there close by the ark of the true God
</span>
Feel free to contribute here. How does smoothness lead to apostasy? Making things seem even? As expected? Words not causing upset to expectation? - Jump in.

</span>
Thats why i asked watchman to explain the points Ive copied in this reply.[/b]


If you say that article was submitted as proof of support,where is the proof this happened ? Where is the evidence of this actual "submitting" this article to the UN ? There is none and this is why Watchman said "evidently"[/b]

This is farcical. The Watchtower has fully admitted that it made the agreement with the D.P.I. That agreement included submitting publications within a time frame. Within the said timeframe publications appeared on the U.N. website.

What you are suggesting seems to be like suggesting that the person who churned the milk into cheese has no real evidence that the milk became cheese, - because all evidence of the milk has gone.


"Evidently " cannot be submitted as proof.Thats a serious thing to say. Thats Watchmans views based on what he wants to see.[/b]

Again, Why would you need proof where there is admission and confession ? The Society admits it entered into an agreement to do this. There is nothing therefore needed to prove it. Hence these views are based on what is `actually seen` i.e. the U.N.`s usage of submitted publications.

Otherwise what is the point you are making? That the Watchtower agreed to submit publications - yet the ones shown ~ might not be the ones actually submitted ~ but other random publications ? What is the difference?


And then to say they &#39;curried favor&#39; with the other members of the Un is utter rubbish...where is the proof of this interaction...maybe they applied preasure through the UN for these nations to stop what they are doing in violating human rights and freedom of religion,but thats not the same as "currying favour" with these members.[/b]

It absolutely is currying flavor if they attempted to have this effect by agreeing to do something to further the aims and objectives. Which is further more not reliant on whether their promise was fulfilled, or the extent of the effectiveness of the fulfillment.

[yong1914]

:animal_rooster: :ban_dance01: :imnotworthy: :buja_w_oblokach:
Hi BenjamiteII,

I see that this NGO issue is causing you a great deal of concern at present. What you need to be aware of is the depth of the duplicity involved which goes far beyond the obvious. If you search the web in detail or review other threads posted over the months you will find the WTS involvement with Rand Cam which was owned by Reg Technologies - check out the relevance for yourself and review the SEC filing for the type of proof you are looking for at http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/08/13/000...2/Section17.asp (http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/08/13/0001015402-01-502232/Section17.asp)

On top of this you must realise that multiple NGO filings were made by affiliated branch offices of the WTS. Then there is the Child abuse issue and of course the Masonic connections from the early days and........ shall I go on??

There is so much to discover that "stumbled" wont cover it. You know what though? When you are really down, Jehovah will pick you up and show you the truth.

EF[/b]

[billy]

Hello yong1914 :wave:

welcome

I see you are from Korea - i love kovean food - yukejung is my favorite soup - i proberbly didnt spell that right

interesting site name - is there a message behind that name?

sister billy :animal_rooster:

[renewed]

The UN is the scarlet colored wild beast in the Rev. 88 book, (written by Franz who died in 1992), at the same time in 1992 the NGO started and Awake started writing favorable articles on UN activity. Why the coincidence? What is your answer as to "why"?

For any longtime reader of Awake the UN inspired articles were obvious. There is a specific article just on the UN that says if it could live up to its ideals it would be like what God&#39;s kingdom "will" do in the new system! Struck me funny reading that first saying to myself, ok. But then didn&#39;t another religion say something about it being the political expression of God&#39;s kingdom on earth?

Also, the GB probably dealt with who was responsible in some kind of judicial meeting and cleared their conscience of having to do any full disclosure to those who need not know.....on to business as usual then. Any who can&#39;t forgive and forget or don&#39;t trust them to handle this are not truly loyal to Jehovah&#39;s organization anyway. Good riddance. It&#39;s just Satan sifting the brotherhood.

[shikinah]

The UN is the scarlet colored wild beast in the Rev. 88 book, (written by Franz who died in 1992), at the same time in 1992 the NGO started and Awake started writing favorable articles on UN activity. Why the coincidence? What is your answer as to "why"?

For any longtime reader of Awake the UN inspired articles were obvious. There is a specific article just on the UN that says if it could live up to its ideals it would be like what God&#39;s kingdom "will" do in the new system! Struck me funny reading that first saying to myself, ok. But then didn&#39;t another religion say something about it being the political expression of God&#39;s kingdom on earth?

Also, the GB probably dealt with who was responsible in some kind of judicial meeting and cleared their conscience of having to do any full disclosure to those who need not know.....on to business as usual then. Any who can&#39;t forgive and forget or don&#39;t trust them to handle this are not truly loyal to Jehovah&#39;s organization anyway. Good riddance. It&#39;s just Satan sifting the brotherhood.[/b]


Hello Brother,
i have to say i agree with you.
When i have spoken about this issue with some jw&#39;s, they really dont want to know. I can understand their reasons why, as "FEAR" has a terrible hold on gods people, its healthy to have a respectful fear for Jehovah..but when it comes to clearly seeing the bad, then i think we have an obligation from our hearts to seek truth. This scripture is one of my favourites 1 John 4:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR IN LOVE BUT PERFECT LOVE THROWS FEAR OUTSIDE, BECAUSE FEAR EXERCISES A RESTRAINT INDEED, HE THAT IS UNDER FEAR HAS NOT BEEN MADE PERFECT IN LOVE" Perfect love is a love you would die for, its sacrificial, this is the love we will need, when we are tested in the tribulation.
The real fear which exists is finding out the truth, the real truth, some perhaps are afraid their faith in Jehovah may be put to the test, but isn&#39;t this what its all about? If we can&#39;t test our faith now, what hope have we got in the great tribulation? If we know our hearts have good intention, then we should have nothing to fear, as only Jehovah can read our hearts and minds, not mortal man.

[sns-becoming]

WTS involvement with Rand Cam which was owned by Reg Technologies - check out the relevance for yourself and review the SEC filing for the type of proof you are looking for at http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/08/13/000...2/Section17.asp (http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/08/13/0001015402-01-502232/Section17.asp)[/b]

Hi Eli&#39;s Foe - I checked out the link you provided and it appears that their only involvement is having received the stock by donation and have no voting rights. Many wealthy do transfers this way to assist in their tax situaion, but I don&#39;t see the relevance with the WTS.


Hi Ness and Welcome! It was April 19, 2004 when I stumbled on the NGO issue. It was quite a blow to me at the time as well. I did much research, including pulling up all the articles in the Awake regarding the UN that appeared so favorable....like PR. Another site I found of interest was: http://www.globalpolcy.org/ngos/ngo-un/res.../2001/1030j.htm (http://www.globalpolcy.org/ngos/ngo-un/rest-un/2001/1030j.htm)

What some friends I or my husband have briefly mentioned this to respond to us is is: Drop it - it&#39;s only for a library card and they got out so it is old news and over. Stop bringing it up because they are not doing it anymore. No harm, no foul. What are you trying to do?

I don&#39;t really respond to these comments. They don&#39;t really invite a response either. However, I do feel that this shows a wonton lack of integrity and I wonder how this "spiritual paradise" under Christ&#39;s direct control could allow this to happen, let alone for 10 years. That it is over is it really over?

As to mentioning it, I snuck in a comment during a recent RC book study regarding those Christian groups that ally themselves to the beast to be an NGO for political protection or other self-serving reasons instead of relying on Jehovah, just like Israel allied with Egypt or others instead of relying on Jah and were punished for it.

Is a punishment due and coming or is the fact that they left correcting the issue altogether? My husband feels this can get us too off track and we should not put too much attention to it as he feel it is over. I am trying to put it aside somewhat, but it makes me watchful and somewhat expectant of further correction coming.

Pray to Jehovah for direction, discretion and discernment. May you be at peace and stay close to Jehovah.

SNS-Becoming

[sns-becoming]

Here&#39;s another interesting place to search at UN website:

http://www.unhchr.ch/udlr/materials/articles.htm

Notice the article, "A "long Job Finished" - by the Watchtowher - used as an example of positive press for UN activities which NGOs subscribe to inform the public about through their "networks" e.g. publishers putting info into hands of public.

SNS-Becoming

[Aland]

I think that is the main point to consider orchid. Satan&#39;s ways are becoming more and more subtle and devious as his time gets shorter. His attacks could potentially come in any fashion, especially ones we may not have even thought about. It&#39;s going to come down to Jehovah looking at the heart condition of each of us, not necessarily what religious affiliation we hold. (I don&#39;t intend to open a can of worms with that statement.)



<div class='quotemain'>oh my! that, that right there is the clincher.

i feel like I just lost a little bit of my soul :( (well, you guys know what I mean...)[/b]

Just remember that Jehovah will fix everything in due time. (It can&#39;t come soon enough) It&#39;s really helped me to put more trust in him, not the elders or any other man. Please hang tight.

Orchid :40:
[/b][/quote]

[Rogue]

Hello br&#39;s and sr&#39;s... First of let me introduce myself: I am a Dutch sister (therefor forgive me my not perfect English!) and I have struggled with unanswerable questions regarding the organisation for many years... the last few months I wanted to investigate some doctrines of my religion and by means of the internet I came across the UN/NGO story... I was really truely shocked... since it is right there on the UN&#39;s own website there&#39;s no denying it! Here in Holland I do not know a single person who even heard rumors about this, let along knows the facts!! I cannot believe how such a thing has taken place and many many sincere JW&#39;s don&#39;t know about it...

This of course just added to my list of doubts and I stopped attending meetings a few weeks ago, and this allarmed my familymembers in my congregation, who asked me what was going on. When expressing my doubts, I was instantly branded as &#39;bad company&#39; (again forgive me for not knowing exactely how to translate JW expressions properly, since it is not tought in English class lol). Then within days the elders were at my doorstep and wanted to know if I realy was having doubts about the organisation and warned me that if I continued having these doubts I would be concidered the Antichrist (is that the correct English term?)... after I was horrified that I didn&#39;t get the chance to properly explain where my doubts came from and they branded me to be the Antichrist without truly listening to me, I told them I didn&#39;t think they acted as true sheperds that wanted to help me, and one elder then offered to listen to some of my doubts to try and find answeres for me... and the first question I asked him was: Do you know about the UN/NGO thing and if so, what do the Dutch elders think about this.... he had no idea what I was talking about and offered to find out... I&#39;m still waiting for his response.... I don&#39;t realy mind waiting, &#39;cause I already know there will be no satisfactory answer, and it is only posponing the judgement... that I will probably be disfellowshipped, even though I committed no sin...

Anyway... sorry for the long post, my actual point is: a lot of countries outside of America and England are sort of ignorant on this UN-matter... that says something about the untruthfullness of the organisation doesn&#39;t it...

Furthermore, although it is not really topic-related, I am very curious how all of you have continued to live your lives, after discovering the truth about the organisation! I feel terrible and I have so many questions, about what to do next... where do I belong now, believing in Jehovah and the Bible, but not agreeing with the WBTS... and how do I follow the command in hebr 10:24,25 to keep attending meetings, especialy when the end is near... ??

[Jeshurun]

Hi Rogue

Hebrew 10:24,25 doesn&#39;t say anything about Kingdom Halls. "Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." JW&#39;s don&#39;t have a monopoly on Jesus.

Jesh

[Molly]

Welcome to the forum, Rogue.

As to your question about how the rest of us are coping with the information, the answer is that it varies from individual to individual. Some have left the organization; others stay and try to be supportive of the brothers and sisters, knowing full well that there is a lot of misinformation being handed out from the platform.

For myself, I sent a letter of disassociation to the elders in my congregation. They were astounded and tried to reason with me. For others with most of their family in the organization, that would be much a more complicated decision. My situation is that my husband was also a Jehovah&#39;s Witness, but he is in the late stages of Alzheimer&#39;s, so he doesn&#39;t have an opinion.

Each person must decide for themselves how to handle the situation. If you can stay and tolerate what is being handed out from the WTBTs as food at the proper time, then that is all well and good. If you cannot, then first consider the cost if you should decide to leave.

What you will find if you peruse some of the topics from the past on this forum or some of the essays by Watchman is that the UN/NGO thing is only one aspect to consider. There are many problems with the WTBTS besides this one.

Again, welcome to the forum. We hope to hear more from you.

Molly

[Rogue]

Welcome to the forum, Rogue.

As to your question about how the rest of us are coping with the information, the answer is that it varies from individual to individual. Some have left the organization; others stay and try to be supportive of the brothers and sisters, knowing full well that there is a lot of misinformation being handed out from the platform.

For myself, I sent a letter of disassociation to the elders in my congregation. They were astounded and tried to reason with me. For others with most of their family in the organization, that would be much a more complicated decision. My situation is that my husband was also a Jehovah&#39;s Witness, but he is in the late stages of Alzheimer&#39;s, so he doesn&#39;t have an opinion.

Each person must decide for themselves how to handle the situation. If you can stay and tolerate what is being handed out from the WTBTs as food at the proper time, then that is all well and good. If you cannot, then first consider the cost if you should decide to leave.

What you will find if you peruse some of the topics from the past on this forum or some of the essays by Watchman is that the UN/NGO thing is only one aspect to consider. There are many problems with the WTBTS besides this one.

Again, welcome to the forum. We hope to hear more from you.

Molly[/b]

Hi Molly,

Thanks for the reply... I know there&#39;s a lot more going on with the WTBS and I have read most of the essays on e-watchman... I was suprised to learn how little I really knew about the prophecies and I was greatfull for the clear explanation of many prophecies... but then again it also left me with some new questions, such as:
-If the WTBS is no longer approoved by Jehovah as His organisation, what are those to do who find out about this... it wassn&#39;t clear to me in the essays what Jehovah expects form his loyal servants in this time, awaiting His comming judgement on the WTBS...
I mean, is it not also true that the good news has to be preached before the end comes... are we to preach te false doctrines of JW&#39;s anyway, or are we to wait untill the judgement....?
And if the WTBT really commits serious sins, such as the NGO thing, and the child abuse coverup and more of that... doesn&#39;t it apply to us as well that which Jehovah said about Babylon, that the ones who do not leave her, share in her sin... allthough this bibletext applied to Babylon the Great, doens&#39;t it mean that Jehovah holds members of an organisation responsible for sharing in their &#39;sins&#39;...?

But if you leave the organisation and end up on your own... aren&#39;t you at greater risc to fall for Satan&#39;s temptations... if there are no br&#39;s and sr&#39;s looking out for your spiritual wellbeing, and if you don&#39;t get constant religious guidens... doesn&#39;t it make you a weak prey? I just wish that the bible was more specific about what is expected of us in this time... I mean, one of the terms af becomming a memeber of this forum is agreeing that JW&#39;s are the true religion and that they were used by Jehovah, right....? But what are we to do now that they have left the righteous path?

[shikinah]

Welcome Rogue,
It is devestating when you actually have it confirmed about the U.N and Watchtower partnership. This is like the ultimate betrayal, and even worse it wasnt announced or properly explained to anyone, so as to put their minds at ease. Its difficult, and you will have to rely on Jehovah more than you ever did before, as you can see the man of lawlessness is really at work within gods organisation. Jehovah allows it as a test but we are not alone, we have each other here on this site. We all want truth so your in the right place where you can say what you feel without being labled an apostate or antichrist. I actually still go to meetings, it is difficult, but we will know what to do when we see these signs unfolding, we are just more aware of the set up, but like the titanic why jump if the ships still afloat :icon_rolleyes:

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

[Rogue]

[quote]
Welcome Rogue,
It is devestating when you actually have it confirmed about the U.N and Watchtower partnership. This is like the ultimate betrayal, and even worse it wasnt announced or properly explained to anyone, so as to put their minds at ease. Its difficult, and you will have to rely on Jehovah more than you ever did before, as you can see the man of lawlessness is really at work within gods organisation. Jehovah allows it as a test but we are not alone, we have each other here on this site. We all want truth so your in the right place where you can say what you feel without being labled an apostate or antichrist. I actually still go to meetings, it is difficult, but we will know what to do when we see these signs unfolding, we are just more aware of the set up, but like the titanic why jump if the ships still afloat :icon_rolleyes:

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

---
Dear Elizabeth,
Thanks for the reply... I do feel that I am in the right place here... and it certainly sets my mind at ease that there are so much faithfull servants of Jehovah that understand that we serve Him, and not men! I am truly devestated by the aggressive attitude towards me that my family and br&#39;s and sr&#39;s in my congregation have towards me because of the doubts I have, and I find it difficult to just attend meetings as if everything was ok, when it isn&#39;t...and what about the ministry.. do u still preach the JW&#39;s version of the truth? I find that very difficult, since preaching means wanting to get other people to join an organisation that does these terrible things...

Still I don&#39;t feel like I want to disfellowship myself, because we need to trust in Jehovah to set things right... but I just don&#39;t know how to attend meetings, smile at everyone who things I might be the Antichrist, preach untrue good news, and close my ears whenever they speak of untrue doctrines... I am soooo much in doubt... everyone is waiting for me to make a dissicion... the elders want me te repent and recognise the WTBTS as true... how do I do that with a clear consience?

[watchman]

Hi Rogue, welcome to the discussion board.

I don&#39;t know if you are aware of the fact that some of the e-watchman stuff has been translated into Dutch. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, he left off his translation work a few years ago. Anyway, Here is a link http://www.e-watchman.be/

watchman

[Rogue]

Hi Rogue, welcome to the discussion board.

I don&#39;t know if you are aware of the fact that some of the e-watchman stuff has been translated into Dutch. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, he left off his translation work a few years ago. Anyway, Here is a link http:// (http://www.e-watchman.be/)www.e-watchman.be/

watchman[/b]

Hi Watchman,
Nice to talk 2 u in person :)
And yes, I have read nearly all the essays on www.e-watchman.be/ (http://www.e-watchman.be/),
I was very happy to find the Dutch translations, because English terms used in the organisation are difficult to translate with just the average highschool-English knowledge...lol

Are there any other Dutch members of this forum, that u know of?

I am very happy to have found this forum, thanks for all the (probably long) hours u have put into studying the prophecies and writing the essays...

May I ask what u&#39;r personal opinion is about what Jehovah expects from us in this time, awaiting the comming judgement? Do we need to stay in the organisation and trust on Jehovah to set things right... or do we &#39;go out from her, not to share in her sins?&#39; I have the hardest time deciding what to do now... the elders expect an answer from me, they want me to repent and put a smile on my face and ignore all the faults of the organisation... and if Jehovah expects that from me, so be it, but how do I know what Jehovah expects from me?

[shikinah]

Welcome Rogue,
It is devestating when you actually have it confirmed about the U.N and Watchtower partnership. This is like the ultimate betrayal, and even worse it wasnt announced or properly explained to anyone, so as to put their minds at ease. Its difficult, and you will have to rely on Jehovah more than you ever did before, as you can see the man of lawlessness is really at work within gods organisation. Jehovah allows it as a test but we are not alone, we have each other here on this site. We all want truth so your in the right place where you can say what you feel without being labled an apostate or antichrist. I actually still go to meetings, it is difficult, but we will know what to do when we see these signs unfolding, we are just more aware of the set up, but like the titanic why jump if the ships still afloat :icon_rolleyes:

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth[/b]

Hi Rogue,
if you go on the link which says Podcast, Robert answers questions to listeners who are asking your type of questions. Pray and tell Jehovah how you feel. Robert actually tells a listener not to leave the organisation as its gods arrangement, even though he has aloud it to become our biggest test, as thats what i will have to do also, just preach the simplistic truths to people, when the time comes for them to know more, you can give them the answers. Just tell the elders only about the UN and that it has shocked you, they cant disfellowship you for asking a question. Its hard i know but Jehovah knows your heart only wants truth, so just ask him for wisdom on how you should handle this.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

[Tsaphah]

Dear Rogue,
We all know how hard it is to take our stand in the congregation. All of the prophets and those who wanted to do what Jehovah commanded were ridiculed and persecuted. It’s all part of Satan’s game. Remember what Jesus said about persecution. (Mt 5:10-11) Jesus was thrown out of the synagogue’s and eventually killed because of the truth.

Jesus was preaching the truth about Jehovah’s arrangement, the Kingdom of the Heavens, for the entire universe. The nation of Israel did not want to hear that message. It was only those who were seeking the truth that accepted his message. There were always those who wanted the recognition of being chosen and having honor placed on them. (Mt 23:2, 6} If you, as a lowly member of the congregation question them, they look down on you as one who is uninformed or ignorant. They may even scoff at what you say. After all, are they not the ones with the higher position? Were they not placed in that position by Jehovah? At least that is what they think.

Even Paul thought that he was right in persecuting the followers of Jesus. (Ga 1:13, 4:9) Jesus even said that they would think that they would be doing a service to Jehovah by putting them to death. (Jn 16:2) In the eyes of the Watchtower Society and those followers of the Society, they see disfellowshipping as the same thing, a death sentence. But, Jehovah is the one who will decide that issue.

Keep praying to Jehovah, through his son Christ Jesus for guidance on all things. (Mt 7:7)

May the loving kindness of Jehovah remain on you.

Tsaphah

[Rogue]

Thanks Elizabeth and Tsaphah...

Pff... I have found more love and understanding in this few hours on the forum than I have in all this time in my congregation... it&#39;s such a relief to read that so many have proceeded me in this affliction... maybe the truth is that all of Jehovah&#39;s servants have to undergo their own tests and afflictions.. and this obviousely is mine, no doubt about it... I found your answer real food for thought, Elizabeth, perhaps I shouldn&#39;t inform the elders on more of my doubts, because that will certainly lead to my DF... perhaps I should try and ignore all of my doubts and trust on Jehovah... I just find it the hardest thing to go back to the meetings, knowing how everyone thinks of me and speaks about me... but then again, indeed, it is nowhere near the ordeal Jesus had to go trough, so when it is put back into perspective, perhaps I should be thankfull that I have been given the gift to find other seekers of the truth!!

[shikinah]

Dear Rogue,
At least you are not alone, i was treated like you and ended up staying away, but i knew it was right to go back. What will give you strength, is to know that even you who is not an elder have been given wisdom to see the bigger picture. I dont have a fear of man anymore, but feel privilaged that my suffering has lead me to see the truth not through rose tinted glasses but for what it is. At least now you can release all those pent up questions on here. Jehovah loves you and thats all that matters sister.

Jahs Blessings
Elizabeth x

[Molly]

Hi Molly,

Thanks for the reply... I know there&#39;s a lot more going on with the WTBS and I have read most of the essays on e-watchman... I was suprised to learn how little I really knew about the prophecies and I was greatfull for the clear explanation of many prophecies... but then again it also left me with some new questions, such as:
-If the WTBS is no longer approoved by Jehovah as His organisation, what are those to do who find out about this... it wassn&#39;t clear to me in the essays what Jehovah expects form his loyal servants in this time, awaiting His comming judgement on the WTBS...
I mean, is it not also true that the good news has to be preached before the end comes... are we to preach te false doctrines of JW&#39;s anyway, or are we to wait untill the judgement....?
And if the WTBT really commits serious sins, such as the NGO thing, and the child abuse coverup and more of that... doesn&#39;t it apply to us as well that which Jehovah said about Babylon, that the ones who do not leave her, share in her sin... allthough this bibletext applied to Babylon the Great, doens&#39;t it mean that Jehovah holds members of an organisation responsible for sharing in their &#39;sins&#39;...?

But if you leave the organisation and end up on your own... aren&#39;t you at greater risc to fall for Satan&#39;s temptations... if there are no br&#39;s and sr&#39;s looking out for your spiritual wellbeing, and if you don&#39;t get constant religious guidens... doesn&#39;t it make you a weak prey? I just wish that the bible was more specific about what is expected of us in this time... I mean, one of the terms af becomming a memeber of this forum is agreeing that JW&#39;s are the true religion and that they were used by Jehovah, right....? But what are we to do now that they have left the righteous path?[/b]


Hello again Rogue-

From this and other posts that you have made I now realize that you have discussed some of the subjects from this site with others and are now on the hot seat. Let me first say that much of your fear stems from the the teachings of the WTS, who claim that we just can&#39;t be faithful without their assistance. They say, "Where will you go?" as if they are the only place to find spiritual refreshment. They purposely misquote Peter&#39;s words. He said: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68,69) So, it&#39;s not a place we must go, such as a Kingdom Hall, or an organization that we should adhere to, such as the WTS, it&#39;s that we should not leave Jesus. We should continually follow him, not man. By distorting this scripture the WTS has kept people in fear that if they left there would be no hope or "truth" available for them. I can tell you that since I left the organization about two years ago that my spirituality and knowledge has grown enormously, but I had issues with some of the things they taught decades, but had tolerated them for the sake of "unity." The UN/NGO thing and SilentLambs was the breaking point for me. Enough was enough!

Since you have read a good number of Watchman&#39;s essays, you are quite aware that there is a different way to appreciate the prophesies, that 1914 has no real basis in truth, that Jesus has not yet arrived, but most of the prophesies are still for the future. This is a lot to comprehend for a JW as it upsets most of what they have considered Bible truth. But Jesus said to keep on asking, seeking and knocking, and "it will be opened to you." (Matt. 7:7) As for preaching, it is easier to do now that I don&#39;t have to conform their way of doing things or push their literature. I can discuss the Bible without being dogmatic or the imagined (and disrespectful) notion that I was the one with all the understanding. I&#39;ve had to prayerfully apologize to Jehovah for my arrogance on that score.

The best thing I can tell you about whether to leave or not is that it is a matter or your conscience. You may consider that you are sighing and groaning over the detestable things (Ez. 8) while remaining in the congregation, or you might decide that you must "get out from among them, and separate yourselves,"... "and quit touching the unclean thing." (2 Cor. 6:17) That is a decision that only you can make. Just don&#39;t think that because you are not in a congregation that you can&#39;t be just as faithful or just spiritual. In fact, by taking in true knowledge, you will become closer to the Father and His Son.

One thing that you should know is that most here are quite understanding about how difficult this is for you. When I learned about this information, I was stunned. I walked around in a daze for about 3 months as I learned more and more. It does take a bit of time to sort it all out. You will find that those here are more than willing to be supportive regardless of which way you decide to go, but if the elders are already informed of your new understanding and you don&#39;t repent, they may make the decision for you. Isn&#39;t amazing that you should repent not for some sin, but for having learned some truthful information. That just boggles the mind!

Hope this is of some help to you.

Molly

[Rogue]

[quote]
[quote]Hi Molly,

.....you will find that those here are more than willing to be supportive regardless of which way you decide to go, but if the elders are already informed of your new understanding and you don&#39;t repent, they may make the decision for you. Isn&#39;t amazing that you should repent not for some sin, but for having learned some truthful information. That just boggles the mind!

Hope this is of some help to you.

Molly
----
Hi Molly,
Thank u for ur point of view, I can completely understand why u said to urself: enough is enough... If nothing was at stake, I would probably easily make that decision as well, but I have a large number of family in the truth, even in my own congregation, and I would rather see my son (who is now 8 months old) grow up having JW&#39;s friends, than friends in the world, and my husband is still a JW and doesn&#39;t really understand my doubts, and it would be hard on him if I were DF... still it also boggles my mind as u say, that I have to repent when I have not committed any sin... and that they would so easily consider me to be the Antichrist!! But I feel that, now that I found about about all my "real" br&#39;s and sr&#39;s on this forum, I might be able to find the strength to hold on being a JW untill Jesus comes... I don&#39;t know if I will succeed, because it will require a lot of &#39;biting the tongue&#39; from my part...

And I realise now that I might have been to hasty informing everyone about my doubts, including the elders, I doubt if they will believe me when I say I suddenly was able to let go of those doubts.

I&#39;m currently emailing with one of the 2 elders who paid me a visit recently, and today he maild me, saying that I should not look to find all the answeres to my questions, that Paul was doubted by the Corinthians as well and he wrote 2 Cor, not as to refute all their doubts, but rather to prove that he was in charge as an apostle.... so with that, I think he ment he didn&#39;t have the intention to deal with my doubts, one by one, but just wanted to urge me to trust Jehovah will make things right... He also answered my queastion about the NGO-matter, and he said that the only reason the organisation was mistaken for being an NGO is because they subscribed in order to be allowed to use some photograhs that are under UN copyright...and that people mistook that for being a NGO... furthermore he said that on the list where they were mentioned, they were nog referred to as WTBTS (their legal name) but as &#39;assosation of Jehovah,s witnesses&#39;... I have replied to him today, with the link to the Un website, where they clearly speak of the WTBTS, and also explain what is means to be a NGO... I told him that if he had a reasonable explaination for this, or an official statement from the WTBTS regarding this... I would be happy to receive it... since there is no official statement on their website or in any published work...

I am affraid that I once again was unable to hide my distrust in the organisation and I doubt the elder will be gratefull that I pointed him to the evidence... so I also doubt that the &#39;investigation&#39; they started concerning my current standpoint is over... and probably because of my own mouth... but I found it extremely difficult to hide the truth I discovered... *sigh*

[Molly]

I am affraid that I once again was unable to hide my distrust in the organisation and I doubt the elder will be gratefull that I pointed him to the evidence... so I also doubt that the &#39;investigation&#39; they started concerning my current standpoint is over... and probably because of my own mouth... but I found it extremely difficult to hide the truth I discovered... *sigh*
[/quote]

Rogue-

The standard technique is to dissuade curiosity as independent thinking. Exposing misinformation, mistakes and distortions of the WTS in their eyes makes you a Jezebel. And further, to rebut their defenses makes you an apostate and an antichrist. It can get pretty ridiculous, can&#39;t it. In fact, whether all of us here, whether in good standing at the Hall or not, are all apostates according to the WTS simply for viewing this site. Ever notice how many phrases and buzz words the WTS employs to keep one in line.

I do sympathize with your family situation. For you to be disfellowshipped would create a hardship for you and your entire family. That&#39;s why I would never tell you what is the best course for you. You have to weigh this all out for youself. Only you know how badly this will all affect everyone. As far as your child&#39;s associations, what I have found is that people in the world are not all as hateful and demented as the WTS would have us believe. Sure, there are some that you simply would not want to associate with, but there are also a lot that are just like us, trying to do the right thing. Once again they have used scare tactics to keep us from making friends "in the world."

When you first learned of this new information, you probably thought that everyone would want to know it too. It is quite a rude awakening to find out that many people are quite happy with things the way they are and don&#39;t want to have their belief system turned upside down even if the news is true. It is amazing to me that people would rather believe lies than investigate when information is presented, but that is the way it is.

So, as a result, the only thing I can say is that I appreciate your predicament, and I sigh along with you.

Molly

[Rogue]

When you first learned of this new information, you probably thought that everyone would want to know it too. It is quite a rude awakening to find out that many people are quite happy with things the way they are and don&#39;t want to have their belief system turned upside down even if the news is true. It is amazing to me that people would rather believe lies than investigate when information is presented, but that is the way it is.

So, as a result, the only thing I can say is that I appreciate your predicament, and I sigh along with you.

Molly
---

That is so true... I found out about all this things not being true, and I thought people would want to know... but they don&#39;t! I have always wondered how all those other religious people were able to believe in things they made up themselves, and didn&#39;t even want to know that the evidence is right there in the bible, like when in the ministry u find people who believe in the trinity or stuff like that, me and my fellow br&#39;s and sr&#39;s could always be so amazed by there determination to hold on to there own-invented believes... but those same br&#39;s and sr&#39;s have the same determination to hold on to their believes, even if the bible tells us something else... they are also not really seakers of truth... one of my familymembers, when she heard I was not agreeing with the Org anymore, asked me if I wanted to inform her about the state of affairs (meaning of course if I were to be DF), but specificly asked me not to reveal any details on the issues that were troubling me, she didnt want me to talk about it at all... that fear they have... it&#39;s unbelievable, that fear to even hear what u have to say... why be affraid if u are sooooo certain u have THE truth?? It puzzles me....

Well.. I&#39;ll just be awaiting the elder&#39;s response (I highly doubt it will be positive)....

Here in Holland it&#39;s time to go to bed... I&#39;ll have a look at the board again tomorrow!

Sisterly love to all!

[shikinah]

People fear what they dont know, they thought they knew the watchtower society, they thought it was infallable, so they prefer to be in denial incase they may not be able to handle the truth and end up leaving a system which they worshiped. If only they took time out, they would see that its still the truth, its just that the watchtower like christendom cant see in the bible where scriptures apply to them. It would be easier to find out now, then when things start to collapse and theres mass hysteria. We will all see it eventually for what it is, but Jehovah still use them for the preaching work which has to be preached world wide.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

[Nash]

Hi Rogue,

Welcome to the board. :)

I&#39;m sorry that you are going through this experience. When Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses are confronted with negative information about our religion, many automatically dismiss the information as evil, and many automatically vilify those who believe it. Unfortunately, this way of thinking is something that is very hard to break in many, so I wouldn&#39;t waste any time trying to convince people in your family or your congregation of things that they don&#39;t want to be convinced of. It will be wasted energy much of the time. Don&#39;t worry about how others are labelling you since they aren&#39;t your judges anyway.

Nash

[Rogue]

.....We will all see it eventually for what it is, but Jehovah still use them for the preaching work which has to be preached world wide.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth[/b]


I wondered about that too... I remember having read in one of watchman&#39;s essays, that the preaching around the world doesn&#39;t necessarily mean this time, but could also mean the time when Jesus arrives and gives us the real truth to preach... &#39;cause what would be the use of us preaching that the Kingdom has already come and JW&#39;s are safe from harm and mislead more people! But then again, Jesus apostles didn&#39;t understand what the kingdom ment as well and Jesus still send them preaching their understanding at the time... so maybe that&#39;s what&#39;s happening now too...

Anyway, thanks all 4 the support... I think I will await the elder&#39;s response before deciding to go back to meetings....

Do all of u attend the memorial of Jesus&#39; dead the 9th of april... (don&#39;t know the English term)?

[shikinah]

<div class='quotemain'>.....We will all see it eventually for what it is, but Jehovah still use them for the preaching work which has to be preached world wide.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth[/b]


I wondered about that too... I remember having read in one of watchman&#39;s essays, that the preaching around the world doesn&#39;t necessarily mean this time, but could also mean the time when Jesus arrives and gives us the real truth to preach... &#39;cause what would be the use of us preaching that the Kingdom has already come and JW&#39;s are safe from harm and mislead more people! But then again, Jesus apostles didn&#39;t understand what the kingdom ment as well and Jesus still send them preaching their understanding at the time... so maybe that&#39;s what&#39;s happening now too...

Anyway, thanks all 4 the support... I think I will await the elder&#39;s response before deciding to go back to meetings....

Do all of u attend the memorial of Jesus&#39; dead the 9th of april... (don&#39;t know the English term)?
[/b][/quote]

Hello Rogue,
The way i see it, all types of preaching about Jehovah is vital, but i dont think the timing at this point is important because if it was, we wouldnt be here. There maybe a different type, it could be when where round up and put in fema camps, maybe the most effective preaching could be then, as people will know the world has become corrupt. I dont think any of us can truely imagine the horrors that are coming and how Jehovah will direct his work, i just pray i have the strength to endure to the end. :icon_neutral:

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

[panda]

Hello and welcome Rogue, fancy calling you an Antichrist, haven&#39;t heard anyone ever be called that in the congregation. Anyways, after I found out about the ngo, that was just the icing on the cake as to their apostasy (wtbts) the organization is still going only because Jehovah has allowed it. So I prefer to stay and hopefully I will be able to help others, and I still want to preach Gods Kingdom, also I do have family as a single person it is hard enough without there coming down on me.

We all have a choice and hopefully what ever one we choose it is pleasing to Jehovah.

cheers

panda

[Rogue]

Hello and welcome Rogue, fancy calling you an Antichrist, haven&#39;t heard anyone ever be called that in the congregation. Anyways, after I found out about the ngo, that was just the icing on the cake as to their apostasy (wtbts) the organization is still going only because Jehovah has allowed it. So I prefer to stay and hopefully I will be able to help others, and I still want to preach Gods Kingdom, also I do have family as a single person it is hard enough without there coming down on me.

We all have a choice and hopefully what ever one we choose it is pleasing to Jehovah.

cheers

panda[/b]

Hi Panda,

It&#39;s unbelievable isn&#39;t it...that u are an apostate and the Anti-christ when u question the organisation&#39;s actions... I couldn&#39;t believe it when I heard the elders saying that, but it&#39;s how they are taught, they believe it&#39;s true! As the bible refers to anti-christs as persons who oppose to Jehovah and Jesus, they have their own vision on the anti-christs, being the persons who dissagree with the organisation... and every JW just accepts it and bows and says amen! :imnotworthy:

I was reading Ez 34 today, because of another topic posted on the board, and I researched on the cd-rom (WTBTS) what they said about these scriptures, and allthough in all the rest of the prophecies they identify the contemporary annointed with the former Israel... but in Ez 34, there is spoken of the sheperds of Israel... and all of a sudden this reffers to the false christianity and political rullors... and everybody just says yes and amen to their explaination, when it makes no sence at all and these scriptures abviousely reffer to Gods people in the period before Jesus comes and will sheperd them himself! The way they twist things and get away with it... it&#39;s unbelievable!

I still haven&#39;t heard from the elder about the NGO thing by the way... I emailed him the link to the UN website and asked if there was a solid explaination for it, but he hassn&#39;t come back to me about it ever since! I doubt he will...
It still amazes me how the WT was able to cloud such a big thing as their membership, even when it was revealed in public, most of the countries outside of the US are ignorant about the matter...

I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything wrong with staying in the congregation of JW&#39;s to avoid being shun by the members of ur familiy... Looking back I might have been better off if I kept my mouth shut and adopted a wait and see attitude, but can&#39;t reverse it anymore, I will just have to wait and see what the elders&#39; next move is... and maybe one day I will find the strenght to attend meetings again!

:)

[panda]

<div class='quotemain'>Hello and welcome Rogue, fancy calling you an Antichrist, haven&#39;t heard anyone ever be called that in the congregation. Anyways, after I found out about the ngo, that was just the icing on the cake as to their apostasy (wtbts) the organization is still going only because Jehovah has allowed it. So I prefer to stay and hopefully I will be able to help others, and I still want to preach Gods Kingdom, also I do have family as a single person it is hard enough without there coming down on me.

We all have a choice and hopefully what ever one we choose it is pleasing to Jehovah.

cheers

panda[/b]

Hi Panda,

It&#39;s unbelievable isn&#39;t it...that u are an apostate and the Anti-christ when u question the organisation&#39;s actions... I couldn&#39;t believe it when I heard the elders saying that, but it&#39;s how they are taught, they believe it&#39;s true! As the bible refers to anti-christs as persons who oppose to Jehovah and Jesus, they have their own vision on the anti-christs, being the persons who dissagree with the organisation... and every JW just accepts it and bows and says amen! :imnotworthy:

I was reading Ez 34 today, because of another topic posted on the board, and I researched on the cd-rom (WTBTS) what they said about these scriptures, and allthough in all the rest of the prophecies they identify the contemporary annointed with the former Israel... but in Ez 34, there is spoken of the sheperds of Israel... and all of a sudden this reffers to the false christianity and political rullors... and everybody just says yes and amen to their explaination, when it makes no sence at all and these scriptures abviousely reffer to Gods people in the period before Jesus comes and will sheperd them himself! The way they twist things and get away with it... it&#39;s unbelievable!

I still haven&#39;t heard from the elder about the NGO thing by the way... I emailed him the link to the UN website and asked if there was a solid explaination for it, but he hassn&#39;t come back to me about it ever since! I doubt he will...
It still amazes me how the WT was able to cloud such a big thing as their membership, even when it was revealed in public, most of the countries outside of the US are ignorant about the matter...

I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything wrong with staying in the congregation of JW&#39;s to avoid being shun by the members of ur familiy... Looking back I might have been better off if I kept my mouth shut and adopted a wait and see attitude, but can&#39;t reverse it anymore, I will just have to wait and see what the elders&#39; next move is... and maybe one day I will find the strenght to attend meetings again!

:)
[/b][/quote]Hi Rogue, elder may not contact you, the other elders may have decided you are an apostate, this is usually what happens. If you do send him another email, perhaps you could ask him, how can Gods holy spirit appoint elders if they are pedophiles, or how can an elder be used to pray to God for help in appointing an elder, if he is a pedophile, I mean one was molesting for years before being found out. We will be studying respect within the congregation next month at the bible book study, page 43 para 16.

Yes this site has excellent articles to read and encouraging forum. Has helped me heaps.
Also I like this article I found on another site, with similar understandings of the organization. Excellent read.



</span></span>
http://perimeno.ca/God&#39;s_Organization.htm (http://perimeno.ca/God)

cheers

[panda]

sorry that link didn&#39;t open up to the actual article...if you go to the

just scroll down to Does God have an Organization article, its new.

http://perimeno.ca/Index_A.htm

[Rogue]

sorry that link didn&#39;t open up to the actual article...if you go to the

just scroll down to Does God have an Organization article, its new.

http://perimeno.ca/Index_A.htm[/b]


Hiya.. thnx for the link.. been doing some reading on that website, I found the article concerning the Governing Body very interesting and well-substantiated.. however, it had some not so nice things to say about e-watchman:

E-watchman is just one of the better known of the many prophets claiming to speak in Jehovah’s name. Because it is scripturally impossible at this time to prove whether his interpretations and expectations are right or wrong, his followers find it necessary to quote him extensively when discussing his take on the unfolding of future events, rather than turning to Scripture. He has dismissed as “vomit” just about everything the Watchtower has taught, especially in connection with Bible prophecy.

When a person’s teachings can affect someone’s relationship with Jehovah in a negative way it can be said that that teaching becomes dangerous. For example, consider just three points on what e-watchman is teaching:

He claims that the global preaching work, mentioned by Jesus at Matt. 24:14, is still future and will be of short duration.
He believes that in the not-too-distant future Jehovah’s people will be taken into exile by Babylon the Great, and the call of Rev. 18:4, to get out of her, will apply at that time.
He also expects "the great crowd" of Rev. 7:9,14, to come into existence during the great tribulation.
(Please correct me if I have misunderstood any of these points by e-watchman.)

All of the above points can affect our relationship with Jehovah. If he is wrong then those who listened to him and refrained from participating in the preaching of the good news of the kingdom, will have missed out on the all important and never to be repeated work assigned to us for this time. Also, anyone who may still be found in Babylon the Great and wishes to worship Jehovah, may delay in getting out of her before her sudden and unexpected destruction, perhaps reasoning that the flight is still future, and thus not heed the timely warning sounded by God’s angel, and end up sharing in her fate. And many, who had put faith in his words, will realize too late that the great crowd existed before the great tribulation breaks forth, having already washed their robes “in the blood of the Lamb” and been busy “rendering [God] sacred service,” including participation in the preaching assignment, for which reason they are protected. To wait until the great tribulation begins is suicidal according to Zephaniah 2:1-3.

Today, many former Witnesses are going around urging God’s people to separate themselves from the Watchtower Society, claiming that it is part of Babylon the Great. Having already stumbled they now fail to recognize that Jehovah foretold that there would be false teachers and wicked men in the midst of his people, whom he would, at his appointed time, remove from “the intimate group of [his] people.” (Ezek. 13:9; 14:8,9; Matt. 13:40-43) Having removed themselves from the midst of God’s people they are now encouraging others to do likewise. (Dan. 11:35) It is vital for us at this time to heed Jesus’ words and be on the lookout regarding those he warned us about, “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you.” (Matt. 24:24,25)

Although I get questions on a number of subjects, I refuse to speculate publicly on prophecies "which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." What I write, for the encouragement of Jehovah’s people, can be verified from the Scriptures. A person may also want to use the Scriptures where they disagree with me, but this is not possible when it comes to prophecy. (Dan. 12:10; Matt.13:43) From time to time I receive letters from brothers who disagree with me about my claim that we are not expected or able to understand all Bible prophecies at this particular time. Usually they include a version of their own interpretation of prophecy, almost always from the book of Revelation. (Can you imagine Jesus&#39; twelve disciples gathering together the night before his arrest and trying to interpret the prophecies pertaining to the events of the following few days? Could they have gotten it right? Why didn&#39;t they? Did their arguments about who was the greatest among them have anything to do with who was the most credible when it came to figuring out the unfolding of future events, such as "how would Jesus set up his kingdom when the Romans were still in power," etc.?)

There is much in the way of instructions in the Scriptures that we need to concern ourselves with in these last days, in order to strengthen our relationship with Jehovah. That is where our emphasis should be! Now is the time to seek Jehovah, to seek righteousness and meekness. If we remain steadfast and loyal we will be concealed in the day of his anger. (Zeph. 2:2,3) If I have my own thoughts on certain details on fulfillment of prophecies I keep these to myself. That way I will not be counted among those who "go beyond the things that are written,” and be classified among the false prophets. (1Cor. 4:6)"

Personaly, on many things that people say on the internet about prophecies, I don;t know what to believe. I found the wachtman&#39;s essays very helpfull to come to understand how some prophecies have not yet been forfilled, but I agree to some point that there is no real use to speculate about future forfillments, since most forfillments will only be clear to us when it happens... but i don&#39;t think it can do any wrong to discuss bibletexts (to some level), and I don&#39;t think watchman advises us to leave the congregation, or stop preaching, or stay a member of false religion... so I don&#39;t think any harm is done... and I don&#39;t think the people on this forum concider watchman to be a prophet with special insights, right?

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>sorry that link didn&#39;t open up to the actual article...if you go to the

just scroll down to Does God have an Organization article, its new.

http://perimeno.ca/Index_A.htm[/b]


Hiya.. thnx for the link.. been doing some reading on that website, I found the article concerning the Governing Body very interesting and well-substantiated.. however, it had some not so nice things to say about e-watchman:

E-watchman is just one of the better known of the many prophets claiming to speak in Jehovah&#39;s name. Because it is scripturally impossible at this time to prove whether his interpretations and expectations are right or wrong, his followers find it necessary to quote him extensively when discussing his take on the unfolding of future events, rather than turning to Scripture. He has dismissed as "vomit" just about everything the Watchtower has taught, especially in connection with Bible prophecy.

When a person&#39;s teachings can affect someone&#39;s relationship with Jehovah in a negative way it can be said that that teaching becomes dangerous. For example, consider just three points on what e-watchman is teaching:

He claims that the global preaching work, mentioned by Jesus at Matt. 24:14, is still future and will be of short duration.
He believes that in the not-too-distant future Jehovah&#39;s people will be taken into exile by Babylon the Great, and the call of Rev. 18:4, to get out of her, will apply at that time.
He also expects "the great crowd" of Rev. 7:9,14, to come into existence during the great tribulation.
(Please correct me if I have misunderstood any of these points by e-watchman.)

All of the above points can affect our relationship with Jehovah. If he is wrong then those who listened to him and refrained from participating in the preaching of the good news of the kingdom, will have missed out on the all important and never to be repeated work assigned to us for this time. Also, anyone who may still be found in Babylon the Great and wishes to worship Jehovah, may delay in getting out of her before her sudden and unexpected destruction, perhaps reasoning that the flight is still future, and thus not heed the timely warning sounded by God&#39;s angel, and end up sharing in her fate. And many, who had put faith in his words, will realize too late that the great crowd existed before the great tribulation breaks forth, having already washed their robes "in the blood of the Lamb" and been busy "rendering [God] sacred service," including participation in the preaching assignment, for which reason they are protected. To wait until the great tribulation begins is suicidal according to Zephaniah 2:1-3.

Today, many former Witnesses are going around urging God&#39;s people to separate themselves from the Watchtower Society, claiming that it is part of Babylon the Great. Having already stumbled they now fail to recognize that Jehovah foretold that there would be false teachers and wicked men in the midst of his people, whom he would, at his appointed time, remove from "the intimate group of [his] people." (Ezek. 13:9; 14:8,9; Matt. 13:40-43) Having removed themselves from the midst of God&#39;s people they are now encouraging others to do likewise. (Dan. 11:35) It is vital for us at this time to heed Jesus&#39; words and be on the lookout regarding those he warned us about, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you." (Matt. 24:24,25)

Although I get questions on a number of subjects, I refuse to speculate publicly on prophecies "which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." What I write, for the encouragement of Jehovah&#39;s people, can be verified from the Scriptures. A person may also want to use the Scriptures where they disagree with me, but this is not possible when it comes to prophecy. (Dan. 12:10; Matt.13:43) From time to time I receive letters from brothers who disagree with me about my claim that we are not expected or able to understand all Bible prophecies at this particular time. Usually they include a version of their own interpretation of prophecy, almost always from the book of Revelation. (Can you imagine Jesus&#39; twelve disciples gathering together the night before his arrest and trying to interpret the prophecies pertaining to the events of the following few days? Could they have gotten it right? Why didn&#39;t they? Did their arguments about who was the greatest among them have anything to do with who was the most credible when it came to figuring out the unfolding of future events, such as "how would Jesus set up his kingdom when the Romans were still in power," etc.?)

There is much in the way of instructions in the Scriptures that we need to concern ourselves with in these last days, in order to strengthen our relationship with Jehovah. That is where our emphasis should be! Now is the time to seek Jehovah, to seek righteousness and meekness. If we remain steadfast and loyal we will be concealed in the day of his anger. (Zeph. 2:2,3) If I have my own thoughts on certain details on fulfillment of prophecies I keep these to myself. That way I will not be counted among those who "go beyond the things that are written," and be classified among the false prophets. (1Cor. 4:6)"

Personaly, on many things that people say on the internet about prophecies, I don;t know what to believe. I found the wachtman&#39;s essays very helpfull to come to understand how some prophecies have not yet been forfilled, but I agree to some point that there is no real use to speculate about future forfillments, since most forfillments will only be clear to us when it happens... but i don&#39;t think it can do any wrong to discuss bibletexts (to some level), and I don&#39;t think watchman advises us to leave the congregation, or stop preaching, or stay a member of false religion... so I don&#39;t think any harm is done... and I don&#39;t think the people on this forum concider watchman to be a prophet with special insights, right?
[/b][/quote]

Was brother Russell a prophet?
Was brother Rutherford a prophet?
Are indeed any of the governing members prophets?
Are there any prophets as yet?
If so who are they?

Just some questions to consider from FutureMan.

[Rogue]

Was brother Russell a prophet?
Was brother Rutherford a prophet?
Are indeed any of the governing members prophets?
Are there any prophets as yet?
If so who are they?

Just some questions to consider from FutureMan.[/b]


I don&#39;t think the issue is, wether they WERE prophets, but wether they considered themselves to be prophets, who wanted people to follow them blindly...
I don&#39;t think watchman thinks of himself as a prophet with special insight... I don&#39;t know about Russel or Rutherford... I do think the &#39;slave&#39; as a whole consideres themselves to be a &#39;prophet&#39;... but more important it is that people who are revolted by the idolising the WT by the JW&#39;s, don&#39;t go around looking for their own &#39;idol&#39;, so even though watchman may have good motives (only Jehovah can read hearts, we can just assume he does ;)), it is important for everyone to follow only Jehovah, not any man, not the WT, not Watchman or any other brother or sister who shares their own insights with others, we can all support one another and encourage and even challenge eachother to think certain questions over, but we cannot proclaim to have special, devine insights! and I personally don&#39;t think watchman does that...

[panda]

<div class='quotemain'>sorry that link didn&#39;t open up to the actual article...if you go to the

just scroll down to Does God have an Organization article, its new.

http://perimeno.ca/Index_A.htm[/b]


Hiya.. thnx for the link.. been doing some reading on that website, I found the article concerning the Governing Body very interesting and well-substantiated.. however, it had some not so nice things to say about e-watchman:

E-watchman is just one of the better known of the many prophets claiming to speak in Jehovah&#39;s name. Because it is scripturally impossible at this time to prove whether his interpretations and expectations are right or wrong, his followers find it necessary to quote him extensively when discussing his take on the unfolding of future events, rather than turning to Scripture. He has dismissed as "vomit" just about everything the Watchtower has taught, especially in connection with Bible prophecy.

When a person&#39;s teachings can affect someone&#39;s relationship with Jehovah in a negative way it can be said that that teaching becomes dangerous. For example, consider just three points on what e-watchman is teaching:

He claims that the global preaching work, mentioned by Jesus at Matt. 24:14, is still future and will be of short duration.
He believes that in the not-too-distant future Jehovah&#39;s people will be taken into exile by Babylon the Great, and the call of Rev. 18:4, to get out of her, will apply at that time.
He also expects "the great crowd" of Rev. 7:9,14, to come into existence during the great tribulation.
(Please correct me if I have misunderstood any of these points by e-watchman.)

All of the above points can affect our relationship with Jehovah. If he is wrong then those who listened to him and refrained from participating in the preaching of the good news of the kingdom, will have missed out on the all important and never to be repeated work assigned to us for this time. Also, anyone who may still be found in Babylon the Great and wishes to worship Jehovah, may delay in getting out of her before her sudden and unexpected destruction, perhaps reasoning that the flight is still future, and thus not heed the timely warning sounded by God&#39;s angel, and end up sharing in her fate. And many, who had put faith in his words, will realize too late that the great crowd existed before the great tribulation breaks forth, having already washed their robes "in the blood of the Lamb" and been busy "rendering [God] sacred service," including participation in the preaching assignment, for which reason they are protected. To wait until the great tribulation begins is suicidal according to Zephaniah 2:1-3.

Today, many former Witnesses are going around urging God&#39;s people to separate themselves from the Watchtower Society, claiming that it is part of Babylon the Great. Having already stumbled they now fail to recognize that Jehovah foretold that there would be false teachers and wicked men in the midst of his people, whom he would, at his appointed time, remove from "the intimate group of [his] people." (Ezek. 13:9; 14:8,9; Matt. 13:40-43) Having removed themselves from the midst of God&#39;s people they are now encouraging others to do likewise. (Dan. 11:35) It is vital for us at this time to heed Jesus&#39; words and be on the lookout regarding those he warned us about, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you." (Matt. 24:24,25)

Although I get questions on a number of subjects, I refuse to speculate publicly on prophecies "which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." What I write, for the encouragement of Jehovah&#39;s people, can be verified from the Scriptures. A person may also want to use the Scriptures where they disagree with me, but this is not possible when it comes to prophecy. (Dan. 12:10; Matt.13:43) From time to time I receive letters from brothers who disagree with me about my claim that we are not expected or able to understand all Bible prophecies at this particular time. Usually they include a version of their own interpretation of prophecy, almost always from the book of Revelation. (Can you imagine Jesus&#39; twelve disciples gathering together the night before his arrest and trying to interpret the prophecies pertaining to the events of the following few days? Could they have gotten it right? Why didn&#39;t they? Did their arguments about who was the greatest among them have anything to do with who was the most credible when it came to figuring out the unfolding of future events, such as "how would Jesus set up his kingdom when the Romans were still in power," etc.?)

There is much in the way of instructions in the Scriptures that we need to concern ourselves with in these last days, in order to strengthen our relationship with Jehovah. That is where our emphasis should be! Now is the time to seek Jehovah, to seek righteousness and meekness. If we remain steadfast and loyal we will be concealed in the day of his anger. (Zeph. 2:2,3) If I have my own thoughts on certain details on fulfillment of prophecies I keep these to myself. That way I will not be counted among those who "go beyond the things that are written," and be classified among the false prophets. (1Cor. 4:6)"

Personaly, on many things that people say on the internet about prophecies, I don;t know what to believe. I found the wachtman&#39;s essays very helpfull to come to understand how some prophecies have not yet been forfilled, but I agree to some point that there is no real use to speculate about future forfillments, since most forfillments will only be clear to us when it happens... but i don&#39;t think it can do any wrong to discuss bibletexts (to some level), and I don&#39;t think watchman advises us to leave the congregation, or stop preaching, or stay a member of false religion... so I don&#39;t think any harm is done... and I don&#39;t think the people on this forum concider watchman to be a prophet with special insights, right?
[/b][/quote]doesnt&#39; mean I believe everything said, I disregard what I don&#39;t think is right and what I do think is right. the same as I may not agree with everything said here either. My thing is what the bible says, and thats the stopping point.

Many here view his website and vice versa.

[Rogue]

Hi all,

Yesterday evening two elders came to visit me again. One of the elders had already emailed me about my question regarding the NGO-matter, and he said by then that the only reason the organisation was mistaken for being an NGO is because they subscribed in order to be allowed to use some photograhs that are under UN copyright...and that people mistook that for being a NGO... furthermore he said that on the list where they were mentioned, they were nog referred to as WTBTS (their legal name) but as &#39;assosation of Jehovah,s witnesses&#39;... I had replied to him with the link to the Un website, where they clearly speak of the WTBTS, and also explain what is means to be a NGO... I told him that if he had a reasonable explaination for this, or an official statement from the WTBTS regarding this... I would be happy to receive it... since there is no official statement on their website or in any published work...
Well, they had send a letter to Bethel and with the offical answer they payed me a visit. The official answer was the one already posted on this board before, about them just needing a library card and in 1991 all of a sudden they needed to subscribe as an NGO, but the terms of agreement back then where different then they were in 2001, and when that was &#39;brought to their attention&#39; they were gratefull for this and immideately resigned as an NGO... they also said that there was nothing secret about it, and that all the elders know about it. I replied with some surprise, since the first explanantion that I had been given was a completely different one, so appearanlty not all the elders knew what was going on...

When I said that this explanation didn;t agree with the facts as presented by the UN, they said it was a matter of trust, I needed to trust that the brothers where telling the truth, and that otherwise I would be like Korach and so on... so I said: well, there are more questions I have, for example regarding 1914, so I asked if they, as sheperds of the flock, could help me with that. The answer was: If I wanted help, I should attend meetings. They had no desire to handle all my questions one at the time, because I was baptised and they didn&#39;t want to have to deffend their faith to me... so I said: I have been attending meetings since I was a baby, and I have never gotten the answers to the questions I have at this time, and if ANYONE should be able to help me with them, it should be my sheperds right? Well, they refused to do that. So then they asked me several times if I still wanted to be a JW (very sneaky, they had no real ground to DF me, but wanted me to say I wanted to resign, so they asked me several times). I avoided commentary on that and said I was still trying to puzzle everything together... than they told me that if I didn&#39;t attend meetings, Jehovah would take away His spirit from me and there would be no use in studing the Bible, because I could never understand what I was reading... I was very suprised that they basicly told me the Bible can only be understood by persons who attend meeting at the Kingdom Hall but was tired of the fruitless conversation and just let it be...

The sad part was, just a few days ago, a very very sweet old brother from my congregation stopped by for a brief visit, all he did was hug me and say: I heard u have doubts and are going trough a difficult time, sweety, just try to find the strenght to attend meetings again and Jehovah will set things straight when it is His time! And just that sweet and heartfelt encouragement made me think and I actualy felt like maybe it was for the best if I would attend meetings again, but the brutal way the elders spoke to me yesterday deprived me of every need I might have felt to attend the meetings.... isn&#39;t that sad, that this was the result of the visit from my loving sheperds! Sorry for the long post, I just had to ventilate my sadness ... :(

[Utuna]

Dear panda,

You said : "doesnt&#39; mean I believe everything said, I disregard what I don&#39;t think is right and what I do think is right. the same as I may not agree with everything said here either. My thing is what the bible says, and thats the stopping point.

Many here view his website and vice versa."

I totally agree with you.

I don&#39;t blindly agree with everything that Watchman writes, does or says. He has opened the eyes of many people, including myself, regarding some fundamental points of biblical knowledge and I&#39;m grateful about it. Personally, I consider that God gave him some understanding regarding these fundamental points because the result is much good and comfort being provided all around the world. Nevertheless, far be it from me to consider him as a prophet. I took what I needed from what he wrote and left the rest out, for the moment. I took this help as coming from God, because the Bible was used and it gave me the love to read it more than ever before. It breathed new life into my puzzled faith and gave me the reasons why I should go on preaching and attending the meetings. Before then, I thought that true faith was cast in one piece. If one thing was wrong, the whole block was wrong. Since then, my Bible study allowed me to strengthen my faith in the fundamental basis of my faith and Robert&#39;s explanations over other doubts allowed me to stand back from secondary official interpretations. Today, my faith is based on Jehovah and on His Word, not on the WT anymore. I respect the "authority" of the WT, but it is not the cornerstone of my faith.

That&#39;s why Roque&#39;s quote above about Watchman made me smile a lot. These guys really think we&#39;re stupid, being blind "yes-men". They criticize us for allegedly being blind followers, but they expect the same for the rank and file JWs. Strong and real faith is not blind or overprotected faith. Watchman is the walking stick enabling us to get back on our feet if we ever hit a stumbling block but he is nothing more. God will give him a reward if he remains faithful till the end only, like anyone else, no matter the nature of his hope. Gratefulness is not veneration.

Dear Roque, I particularly enjoyed the story you told us regarding the old brother. Often, real help doesn&#39;t come from the individuals from whom we expected it. But Jehovah uses lowly and humble ones to do a great job and give priceless advice.

-------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Eyes & Ears]

Hi Rogue,


The only other thing I personally can say to you that has not already been said
on an earlier post to you when you first mention this is, Do not let the behavior of others interfere with what you feel or know deep inside yourself that you should be doing.


If you want to attend meetings, attend and hold your head up when you go, smile, mingle with the friends if you want and leave. Is it really necessary to discuss any further what you have found out with others right now? What is going on with your spiritual life presently, is this what you want to be happening. It seems that it might not be too late to say (IMO only) to the elders that you have left the matter with Jehovah and you know that he will take care of things. You are very intelligent Rogue. I am sure you will pray to Jehovah and let Jehovah help you to discern what to say (seasoned with salt :icon_razz: )

The older brother had some good spiritual thoughts (just my opinion)

The point I have learned after all my crying out, falling down, getting back up, hurting inside and allowing others to hurt/control my feelings is I am serving Jehovah and no one else. I do not share what I have learned with anyone presently. I did with my husband in the beginning and that was WRONG AND IT BACKFIRED.!!

I go to the meetings now, and I only take away what I want to take away. Yes, at times the STUFF going on inside grates my last nerve. But I still believe JW&#39;s are Jehovah&#39;s people and although I am sickened at what is going on inside, I feel it is not the time for me to jump the train prematurely. Jehovah did say that there would be severe problems inside his household. Took me time to understand all that. Took me time also to realize that the WTBTS is not the household but the means to gather the household and help others learn.

I also understand my relationship is with Jehovah not the WTBTS/GB/FDS whatever.

However, things are what they are for now. Rogue, deep in my torn up heart, I believe when it is time to leave it will be very very apparent. There will be no confusion to it.


But for now anyone who has a family and wants to leave my only loving suggestion would be to COUNT THE COST (NOW WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE)


Make sure you are able to deal with the consequences of your choices and MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU HAVE PRAYED TO JEHOVAH AND WAITED FOR HIS ANSWER/DIRECTION. Jehovah does not take away the consequences of our choices we will be responsible and accountable and suffer any goodness or pain from what we do.

It took me a long time to arrive spiritually, emotionally and mentally, where I am now and I am glad I am where I am right now in my relationship with Jehovah.

I pray you are able to work these things out with Jehovah&#39;s help very soon.

Remember Jehovah, his son, the way Jehovah does things, all that Jehovah says would be going on within his household in our day. Do not forget your husband and your baby boy.

These are just my little thoughts, I am sure others will add their loving suggestions.

Sisterly love to you and your family Rogue

E & E

Jeremiah 10:23

ROGUE I AM SENDING YOU OUT A GREAT BIG SISTERLY HUG. YOU TAKE CARE OKEY DOKEY AND CONTINUE TO HOLD ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH AND HIS SON.

[shikinah]

Sorry to hear this Rogue,
but to be honest am not surprised, what ever evidence, pictures, hand written statements etc will never be acknowledged, as they said you have to TRUST the organisation. We have two choices either keep quiet or be prepared to surrender or be expelled. I feel for you hun, when i go i just act dumb, its really hard, but its because i dont want to stumble the ones i care for.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

[Molly]

Dear Rogue-

I am very sorry to hear that this is the outcome of the elders response to your queries. One would have thought that they would have had some interest in finding out the truth of the matter for themselves. They must not really want the truth. Maybe the thought that the truth might be so different from what the WTS has told them is just too scarey for them to contemplate. They have too much invested, after all - years of service and family and friends. Since they have a measure of power, they don&#39;t want to give that up either. Thinking about alternatives, for them, is just too costly and much too dangerous. It is all so very sad.

At least you know that they will not make an effort to see alternative explanations of the situation. They are loyal to the lies. Their loyalty to the WTS is not even commendable, since they&#39;ve given their allegiance to men instead of Jesus.

You&#39;ve tried your best, now it&#39;s decision time and only you can make the decision on how to proceed. All I can do for you is to send you my love and emotional support. I will think of you in my prayers. I don&#39;t know why the WTS has to make things so difficult, but I guess it&#39;s fulfilling prophesy (if that&#39;s any reassurance).

Molly

[panda]

Hi all,

Yesterday evening two elders came to visit me again. One of the elders had already emailed me about my question regarding the NGO-matter, and he said by then that the only reason the organisation was mistaken for being an NGO is because they subscribed in order to be allowed to use some photograhs that are under UN copyright...and that people mistook that for being a NGO... furthermore he said that on the list where they were mentioned, they were nog referred to as WTBTS (their legal name) but as &#39;assosation of Jehovah,s witnesses&#39;... I had replied to him with the link to the Un website, where they clearly speak of the WTBTS, and also explain what is means to be a NGO... I told him that if he had a reasonable explaination for this, or an official statement from the WTBTS regarding this... I would be happy to receive it... since there is no official statement on their website or in any published work...
Well, they had send a letter to Bethel and with the offical answer they payed me a visit. The official answer was the one already posted on this board before, about them just needing a library card and in 1991 all of a sudden they needed to subscribe as an NGO, but the terms of agreement back then where different then they were in 2001, and when that was &#39;brought to their attention&#39; they were gratefull for this and immideately resigned as an NGO... they also said that there was nothing secret about it, and that all the elders know about it. I replied with some surprise, since the first explanantion that I had been given was a completely different one, so appearanlty not all the elders knew what was going on...

When I said that this explanation didn;t agree with the facts as presented by the UN, they said it was a matter of trust, I needed to trust that the brothers where telling the truth, and that otherwise I would be like Korach and so on... so I said: well, there are more questions I have, for example regarding 1914, so I asked if they, as sheperds of the flock, could help me with that. The answer was: If I wanted help, I should attend meetings. They had no desire to handle all my questions one at the time, because I was baptised and they didn&#39;t want to have to deffend their faith to me... so I said: I have been attending meetings since I was a baby, and I have never gotten the answers to the questions I have at this time, and if ANYONE should be able to help me with them, it should be my sheperds right? Well, they refused to do that. So then they asked me several times if I still wanted to be a JW (very sneaky, they had no real ground to DF me, but wanted me to say I wanted to resign, so they asked me several times). I avoided commentary on that and said I was still trying to puzzle everything together... than they told me that if I didn&#39;t attend meetings, Jehovah would take away His spirit from me and there would be no use in studing the Bible, because I could never understand what I was reading... I was very suprised that they basicly told me the Bible can only be understood by persons who attend meeting at the Kingdom Hall but was tired of the fruitless conversation and just let it be...

The sad part was, just a few days ago, a very very sweet old brother from my congregation stopped by for a brief visit, all he did was hug me and say: I heard u have doubts and are going trough a difficult time, sweety, just try to find the strenght to attend meetings again and Jehovah will set things straight when it is His time! And just that sweet and heartfelt encouragement made me think and I actualy felt like maybe it was for the best if I would attend meetings again, but the brutal way the elders spoke to me yesterday deprived me of every need I might have felt to attend the meetings.... isn&#39;t that sad, that this was the result of the visit from my loving sheperds! Sorry for the long post, I just had to ventilate my sadness ... :([/b]You did so well not to lose your cool! it is sad, but I think the elders really don&#39;t know what we do, I doubt if they bother to look anything up themselves but just go by what bethel says, as they probably have had a few asking the similar questions.

I would look at the positive from that, the older brother coming to visit, maybe that was encouragement from Jehovah to come back to the meetings, we don&#39;t know what good we may be able to do for others in the future, including that dear sweet brother.

cheers Panda

[panda]

Dear panda,

You said : "doesnt&#39; mean I believe everything said, I disregard what I don&#39;t think is right and what I do think is right. the same as I may not agree with everything said here either. My thing is what the bible says, and thats the stopping point.

Many here view his website and vice versa."

I totally agree with you.

I don&#39;t blindly agree with everything that Watchman writes, does or says. He has opened the eyes of many people, including myself, regarding some fundamental points of biblical knowledge and I&#39;m grateful about it. Personally, I consider that God gave him some understanding regarding these fundamental points because the result is much good and comfort being provided all around the world. Nevertheless, far be it from me to consider him as a prophet. I took what I needed from what he wrote and left the rest out, for the moment. I took this help as coming from God, because the Bible was used and it gave me the love to read it more than ever before. It breathed new life into my puzzled faith and gave me the reasons why I should go on preaching and attending the meetings. Before then, I thought that true faith was cast in one piece. If one thing was wrong, the whole block was wrong. Since then, my Bible study allowed me to strengthen my faith in the fundamental basis of my faith and Robert&#39;s explanations over other doubts allowed me to stand back from secondary official interpretations. Today, my faith is based on Jehovah and on His Word, not on the WT anymore. I respect the "authority" of the WT, but it is not the cornerstone of my faith.

-------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b]I totally agree with you, it was a really bumpy road to gain some sort of balance once finding out about all this hypocrisy with the WTBTS, I really didn&#39;t want to believe it, but once over the anger and doubting the truth about the truth, I allowed the bible to tell me the truth, reading Roberts and some others articles guided me to the scriptures that I needed to help me cope with all this confusion.

I&#39;m very grateful that I have managed to finally read nearly all of Roberts articles and especially with the pedophile issue was a long time before I could believe that this could really happen as it did, and the assurance from Jehovah that he will do something and set matters straight. I am still only a babe and learning, hopefully I will be able to grow spiritually now that I have come to except things and not fight against the truth.

[Rogue]

Thanks all of you for the kind reply... I have been thinking about the visit of the older brother a lot and in my heart I think he is right, but I have the hardest time overcomming myself to attend meetings again... maybe I will succeed soon!

:)

[Rogue]

For starters I will attend the Memorial in the kingdom hall and will see how I feel after that, I guess!