After The Watchtower

[Administration]

A new essay has been posted and is now available online in streaming audio, downloadable MP3 format, standard html, and print-friendly PDF formats. This is also being sent out as an Open Letter to Kingdom Halls,*Assembly*Halls and*Branch*Offices*worldwide.

After the Watchtower (http://e-watchman.com)

[Gabriel]

ROBERT, Your essay was absalutely breath taking! However I am confused on one thing though. You said

"What we are facing then, brothers, is the complete collapse of the Watchtower Society. Exactly how it will come about is unknowable, but one thing is clear: Large scale war and a financial crash would make it virtually impossible for the Society to carry on their printing operations. Not only that, under wartime conditions the U.S. and other so-called free nations will likely tumble into military dictatorships and Jehovah’s Witnesses may well find themselves to be declared enemies of the state without any legal recourse"

I dont understand why you would encourage anyone to remain with the Watchtower if its fate is sealed. So again, im going to ask you, Should one continue to associate themselves with the organization or should they flee and if so ......when?

[Nash]

Excellent essay! I was reading it at work and read it straight through.

The WTS' excuses have been heard, and sentence has been pronounced.

Nash

[Peter]

I dont understand why you would encourage anyone to remain with the Watchtower if its fate is sealed. So again, im going to ask you, Should one continue to associate themselves with the organization or should they flee and if so ......when?[/b]

Staying in the Watchtower is the best thing we can do for the moment, just think of the confusion that will come about as a result of the Watchtowers collapses. Remember Jesus commended those in Revelation for their endurance, and let's keep in mind that when Christ comes he will inspect the congregations, so where should we be found? If we were to fee from the congregation how are we to be commended for our endurance. If we are to be encouragement to the brotherhood then we need to be with them, of what use will we be on the outside. I appreciate that being in the congregation and knowing so much is wrong is an endurance, but it's our love for the brothers that should be our driving force.

Jesus spoke of the love that his disciple would have among themselves, if we are to demonstrate that love then closeness is needed otherwise we may as well be in the world.

Paul's words at Corinthians 13 testifies to this "Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. ⁷ It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things".

The world don't know what love is they have very little concept of it, at least from Jehovah's stand point in that he's the personification of love.

I haven't read the essay yet, but brother King does recognize the value of being apart of the congregation, so lets put aside what's going on in the Watchtower and its antics and just focus on people and leave the judgments to Jehovah.

[watchman]

I dont understand why you would encourage anyone to remain with the Watchtower if its fate is sealed. So again, im going to ask you, Should one continue to associate themselves with the organization or should they flee and if so ......when?[/b]

The only scriptural answer is what Jesus said, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, THEN....

[watchman]

Hello everyone

Well, I am gearing up for a massive mailout again. Seems that this sort of madness strikes me periodically. This time I am not contracting it out as I did on the first NGO mailout, nor am I soliciting help from you friends here on the board as I did on the child abuse mailout about a year ago. Got a new laser printer and going to pick up another letter folding machine. I am just going to do a few hundred per week and keep at it for a few months.

But, if any of you would like for me to send the letter to a specific congregation I would be happy to do that. Also, if you have a name of an elder I could address it to that would be even better. And if anyone has a name and address of any circuit overseers that would be great. Just send them to me at my private message box, or if you are not a forum member and you would like for me to send the open letter to a specific kingdom hall just shoot me an email at watchman@e-watchman.com with the info. Ah, I should specify only congregations in the U.S. it simply costs too much to mail overseas. Thanks

P.S. Also, I wanted to apologize for the inferior sound quality of the past few audios. I am in a new recording location and the acoustics need some work. Hopefully some sound engineering can get things sorted out before my next podcast. Actually, it may be a few weeks because I may put the recorder in the shop. It has been acting buggy. So, this might be a good time to box it up and ship it to the Boss factory in Los Angeles.

Watchman

[Juan]

I couldn't find it. Where is it? I saw it in the podcast. But I would like to read it.



A new essay has been posted and is now available online in streaming audio, downloadable MP3 format, standard html, and print-friendly PDF formats. This is also being sent out as an Open Letter to Kingdom Halls, Assembly Halls and Branch Offices worldwide.

After the Watchtower (http://e-watchman.com)[/b]

[stayawake]

[quote]
[quote]I d
Jesus spoke of the love that his disciple would have among themselves, if we are to demonstrate that love then closeness is needed otherwise we may as well be in the world. Quote


Dear Peter Now keep in mind I am not being nasty.I am being serious and honest.

Would not you love your brother now as much as you would when they became horrofied when their house of cards start falling apart ??
Have you even tried testing the waters ?
If not , then why not ?

Do u think for one minute our brothers are going to listen to a explanation, at the death of what they held dear. THe WT ?
Unless maybe your a elder and feel that may cause a listening ear .

Do you realize how long it has taken us here to recover from the shock of finding out the sins and lies that our whole life was built on. What sort of magic do you feel you have,??
I am afried you are in for a grand awakening.

If you really love your brothers and your reason for staying within is because of your professed love for your brothers, then this deep love would move ypu to share what you know to be Truth with them.
If I were still going and found out at the very last minute that you knew all the time that there was a brother called Watchman that really knew the future of the WT thru the prophets and you held it back from me . I certainly would not call that Love.
Your decieving yourself Peter.
I may be stepping out of line because I am a sister, but its also because I worry for you Peter. I call it love.

Love stayawake

[DoubtingThomas]

Why would you urge Peter to go against what the scriptures and most at this board including Watchman say is scriptural? Too me that is being nasty. Do you have a personal grudge or vendetta that causes you to want others to grow bitter and leave the organization? Just curious about your motive to discourage Peter from doing what God says to do.

DT

[Nash]

I agree with DT (although a debate is not necessary!).

The congregations are where we should ideally strive to be (at least right now). Even though many congregations do things wrong and many in the organization do things wrong, we should try our best to endure. Besides, when the real trouble begins, hopefully we can be there to assist our brothers and sisters.

Nash

[stayawake]

Dear DT,
It is hard to believe that you even read my post
Is there a full moon tonight ?

No I have nothing against my brothers and sisters and YES i do have a Dislike for the WT. I am sure I dislike it as much as Jehovah does.

I am not following man so why should I be in agreement with man.
Molly put some beautiful scriptures on the board , I think it may be wise to read them
Jer 17 :5-8

I am not being nasty ,how dare you say I am ! You dont even know me.
If my being concerned for my brothers is to be later and not NOW
where is the love ?
It so happens I have a grandson who is a MS inside that won't hear a thing I say, so I was trying to tell ,Peter to say some thing now and see how far he will get, thats what I meat by testing the waters.
Now if that was offensive , then I'm really sorry

love stayawake

[Jinnvisible]

brother King does recognize the value of being apart of the congregation[/b]

Hi Peter,

Without a space between the `a` and the `p` your sentence actualy means the opposite of what you are asserting ! (apart - meaning away from, as opposite to - `a part of`` )

I just thought i`d mention it because its like driving a car being online. People feel protected and so we aren`t always as carefull as if another person were in front of us. I, for instance, am a write off.

I think if you (majoritive) accept that there is something untoward going on within the leadership of Jehovah`s witnesses then it actually requires that we must find more patience more understanding than is otherwise neccesary. I think it maybe an impossible situation for an individual to reconcile. In fact it is not neccesary for us to reconcile it. It only requires that we live through it. I hope we can manage to show support and understanding for different people's situations.

[DoubtingThomas]

Attending meetings or not attending meetings is a personal decision. We should not have a judgemental attitude towards another for whatever they decide in this matter, especially if we are not privy to to the details and circumstances unique to their own particular situation. Yes, the WT will be judged for her sins and at some point will no longer exist. But it is also true that at this time we can still benefit from our association and attending meetings if we so choose to do so.

DT

[Eli's Foe]

I have two comments to make on this thread.

First, I am surprised Robert that you only wish to disseminate this information at congregational level in the USA. I understand the cost implications, and I understand that you need no help from friends within the US but surely you need to be thinking about the 85% of Witnesses that do not live in America? What is your reasoning on this area?

I also want to comment on the issue of attending the meetings. As I discovered recently, it has become a very immotive topic on this Board. We all know what would be ideal, of course and we all know the rules on the DB regarding anything which might be construed as suggesting people should not attend meetings. I would not suggest that to anyone. I feel however that those who feel strongly about attending the meetings ie pro attendance, should not seek to seize the moral high ground in this area. For my part it is a source of constant self examination as to whether I am doing the right thing in abstaining from attendance. Nevertheless only I and my family know the unique difficulty we personally face in this area and why it is in fact better not to do so at this time. Frankly I too hate the WTS as an organisation and cant wait for it to be dissolved.

Robert was disfellowshipped for no good reason yet that is also the case for many brothers and sisters, some of whom still attend meetings regularly, suffering in silence week in week out, trusting in Jehovah for ultimate vindication. Robert does not attend and I am not sitting in judgement, his reasons are adequate for him but many would ask why he does not do so.

Others know the truth as it has now been revealed by Robert but continue to attend and say nothing of their association with him or his ideas to their brothers and sisters at the KH. Is that right? I dont know, it's up to them. I know it isn't right for me. Robert couldn't stay quiet to avoid disfellowshipping and nor could I, some of you will be like me others will not. We need to stop judging one another I realise, some of us are defensive of our position, perhaps too defensive at times. We can all quote scriptures on any given subject, actually we need to remember just one thing - the golden rule established by Jesus himself.

EF

[watchman]

I have two comments to make on this thread.

First, I am surprised Robert that you only wish to disseminate this information at congregational level in the USA. I understand the cost implications, and I understand that you need no help from friends within the US but surely you need to be thinking about the 85% of Witnesses that do not live in America? What is your reasoning on this area?[/b]

My reasoning in this area is that I simply can't afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars. Here's the reality: Mailing within the US cost 41 cents postage. Mailing internationally is over twice that. But if anyone wishes to print out the open letter and stick a stamp on it they are more then welcome to do so.

Watchman

[Eli's Foe]

[

My reasoning in this area is that I simply can't afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars. Here's the reality: Mailing within the US cost 41 cents postage. Mailing internationally is over twice that. But if anyone wishes to print out the open letter and stick a stamp on it they are more then welcome to do so.

Watchman[/b]

Thankyou Watchman I certainly understand the practicalities but my question was really to understand how you rationalise the issue in your own mind. I suppose I am really asking - have you ever thought about how to reach more congregations worldwide? If funding is an issue I am sure many of us would contribute (ever thought of a Paypal account?). The point is, I dont imagine you have the time or resources to do more even if you wanted to, and money is not the only problem. This being the case, why would it be Jehovah's will that only elders in the US should hear the message (assuming most elders anywhere will never visit this site)?

EF

[James]

Getting back to the point of this thread ie. Robert's letter. Personally I am delighted to see him expose the hypocrisy of the GB and its supporters. I feel sure Jehovah is exercising great restraint at this point in not dealing with them immediately!

Just as when Moses descended from Sinai to find the Israelites worshipping the golden calf, the greater Moses, Jesus Christ will find a similar idolatry being practiced when he symbolically also returns from his Father. I feel nothing but contempt for the way brothers and sisters and children have been treated by the Society and its appointees - it is time for them to listen, and to be judged by the same standards they judge others.

If the Society has it right and Robert is wrong, I dont want to live in the new order - it is a simple as that. We need a change in the hearts and minds of our brothers, let us hope a few take note of this letter.

I am reproducing it for congregations in my area - and I recommend this action to you all, Robert has taken the time to produce it , so please use it.

EF[/b]

QUOTE(watchman @ Oct 18 2007, 06:56 PM) http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_images/1/post_snapback.gif (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?act=findpost&pid=8676)[

My reasoning in this area is that I simply can't afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars. Here's the reality: Mailing within the US cost 41 cents postage. Mailing internationally is over twice that. But if anyone wishes to print out the open letter and stick a stamp on it they are more then welcome to do so.

Watchman

Thankyou Watchman I certainly understand the practicalities but my question was really to understand how you rationalise the issue in your own mind. I suppose I am really asking - have you ever thought about how to reach more congregations worldwide? If funding is an issue I am sure many of us would contribute (ever thought of a Paypal account?). The point is, I dont imagine you have the time or resources to do more even if you wanted to, and money is not the only problem. This being the case, why would it be Jehovah's will that only elders in the US should hear the message (assuming most elders anywhere will never visit this site)?

EF

Hi brother Eli's Foe,

Good to see your passionate spirit for the Truth. I think your idea of a paypal account is worthy of consideration. I would contribute, if asked.
Did you meet with success from the last mailing and did you get any feed-back from it?

Christian love,
James

[DoubtingThomas]

Hummm ... let me see here. There are 99,700 congregations in the US, and at .41 cents per letter that is about $40,877 US dollars. I don't know watchmans financial situation, but that is a small fortune to me. Robert if certain ones are willing to help financially (and it sounds like several have already said they are willing to help) maybe you should consider receiving donations. This is unsolicited advise from me, but like Moses father-in-law Jethro advised him, maybe you should seek some help here in this endeavor, as it is way too large for one person alone to do.

But the bottom line is this ... Robert views his work as sounding a warning like the watchmen of old did (as they stood in the watchtowers viewing the enemy from far off before sounding the warning). Robert has seen the coming calamity, and he is sounding the warning with mass mailings like this. That is unselfish and commendable on his part. But this work and undertaking is far too great for one individual alone. It truly is international in scope, not just the US is involved. But every great work has a small beginning doesn't it? But this campaign must have Jehovah's blessing on it in order to succeed. I see most of these letters ending up in the circular file cabinet before the reader even gets past the first page. But with God's blessings and the help of the holy spirit, certain individuals will also benefit from this work. It may only be a few, but when the end of this system begins, and things start unraveling (the financial markets and political situation) it won't take many such warned persons to spread the word that watchman and others were correct about the Biblical prophecies and warnings applying to JW's and not Christendom. This will help all God's people to re-focus at that time and turn back to God, and not look to any organized religion. Of course, by then, the WT will already be gone, and BTG will have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. So God will be the only place persons can look to at that time. But so many JW's will be disillusioned when the tower crashes down, that they will need to be warned to turn back to Jehovah and not any organized religion.

That is why this letter campaign is so important. This letter is great too - it is a summation of nearly every essay and commentary on the e-watchman board. It is a condensed version of the book "Jehovah Himself Has Become King" which I am now reading/studying for the third time. It should be the very first essay and item persons read when they visit this site if they want a view of the big picture, and brief overview of what the future holds - IMHO.

DT

[Molly]

Hummm ... let me see here. There are 99,700 congregations in the US, and at .41 cents per letter that is about $40,877 US dollars. DT[/b]

Or, alternatively, since the judgment starts with the house of god, perhaps a letter to as many of the chosen ones as possible. Then, to others, as money avails itself.

Molly

[watchman]

Hummm ... let me see here. There are 99,700 congregations in the US, and at .41 cents per letter that is about $40,877 US dollars. I don't know watchmans financial situation, but that is a small fortune to me. Robert if certain ones are willing to help financially (and it sounds like several have already said they are willing to help) maybe you should consider receiving donations. This is unsolicited advise from me, but like Moses father-in-law Jethro advised him, maybe you should seek some help here in this endeavor, as it is way too large for one person alone to do.[/b]

Hi DT. Allow me to correct you on one point. There are almost 100,000 congregations worldwide, not just in the U.S. There are about 12,000 congregations in the U.S. There are about between 5 and 6 thousand actual kingdom halls in the U.S.

As regards using PayPal to take donations, we tried that for a brief period about a year ago. As it turned out I received a couple of hundred dollars over a period of a few months. While I appreciate the generousity of the few individuals that contributed, frankly it is simply not worth it. A couple of hundred dollars covers about what I spend in a week on the web site and promotion -- not to mention a mass mailing. For example, in 2004 I contracted with a mailing company to mail an 8 page letter to every kingdom hall in the U.S., which cost about $6,000, as I recall. Besides, there are tax issues and I leave myself open to accusations or profiteering by soliciting donations. The best way to help if anyone is so inclined is to crank up your printers and buy a few envelopes and stamps and have at it.


But the bottom line is this ... Robert views his work as sounding a warning like the watchmen of old did (as they stood in the watchtowers viewing the enemy from far off before sounding the warning). Robert has seen the coming calamity, and he is sounding the warning with mass mailings like this. That is unselfish and commendable on his part. But this work and undertaking is far too great for one individual alone. It truly is international in scope, not just the US is involved. But every great work has a small beginning doesn't it?[/b]

The way I see it, the original prophets did not contact every Jew with their message. They focused primarily on the rulers and older men. For example, Ezekiel prophesied to the elderly men in exile. Jeremiah spoke in public in the temple gate as people were coming and going. I think the Internet serves that purpose now.


But this campaign must have Jehovah's blessing on it in order to succeed. I see most of these letters ending up in the circular file cabinet before the reader even gets past the first page.[/b]

I am certain that will be the case. However, that does not concern me. If you recall the king of Judah threw Jeremiah's letter in the fire when it was read to him by the princes. So, that is what I expect. However, I also expect the system to blow apart in the immediate future; so, whether it is through me or someone else, Jehovah will ge the last word on the matter.



But with God's blessings and the help of the holy spirit, certain individuals will also benefit from this work. It may only be a few, but when the end of this system begins, and things start unraveling (the financial markets and political situation) it won't take many such warned persons to spread the word that watchman and others were correct about the Biblical prophecies and warnings applying to JW's and not Christendom.[/b]

That is exactly how I see it. Jehovah's Witnesses are a very tight knit community. Word can spread like wildfire. So, if I send out 5,000 letters and only 10% are actually read, that's 500 elders. That is a potentially potent force. Plus, don't forget the Internet. In the event of a terror attack, financial collapse or an attack on Iran, JW's and millions of other people are going to be buzzing on the Internet. E-W is pretty well establish already on the net and positioned to become a prominent JW site in the future. So, I just keep casted my seed far and wide and waiting on Jehovah.


Watchman

[Peter]

No Stayawake I don't agree with your analyse of the situation. As brother King brought out in his essay and the introduction to his book that the Watchtower has been the rallying point for the anointed, in addition it's also been the tool for the ingathering of the other sheep, so being a part of it is no great sin on our part.

The way I see it is that we have three categories. Ezekiel was an outcast from the nation for sounding the warring; you could fit the anointed into that grouping who are speaking out at present (or even those who speak out of the other sheep) and have become outcasts from the Watchtower society.

The second are those in the congregation during the Lords day, this group would be found among the big throng of Gods people. Jesus never condemned them for being there, but commended them, not doubt for being an encouragement to the brothers and keeping fast to their integrity.

There is a third group, those who have become physiologically disturbed by the Watchtower, either by its false teachings on prophecy or have become stumbled through the actions of others. (I will admit that sitting through the Revelation book and listening the so-called interpretative nonsense being taught as fact is enough to drive me away from being there.) As EF stated: "For my part it is a source of constant self examination as to whether I am doing the right thing in abstaining from attendance. Nevertheless only I and my family know the unique difficulty we personally face in this area and why it is in fact better not to do so at this time."

The meetings though do provide us with the needed discipline and a structured weekly bible program, and frankly many of us wouldn't follow left to our own devises. There still is whether we like it or not food to be had at the proper time. One of Brother King's podcast the other week made an interesting point as regards Nazi Germany and why the brothers were able to hold fast under persecution, (this could be applied to any who come under persecution) namely they received food at the proper time, they were also an encouragement to each other and gained spiritual strength through it. Now what would have happened if someone had said back there (and this has been brought out in other threads that the leadership of the Watchtower did not behave correctly with the Nazis leadership, even though I would like to do further research on that one) I'm not going to associate with you lot due the failure of the Watchtowers leadership and decided to go it alone, really how long would they have lasted under those trying condition. Let's remember what happened on the 'death march' and how the brothers supported each other.

So as I stated being a part of the congregation is no great sin on our part.

In fact take a look at what happen in Smyr'na.

"And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr´na write… 'I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now who is Jesus referring to at this point? The seven congregations can only picture the congregations worldwide, all 100,000 of them, yet Jesus tells the congregation at Smyr´na they are rich. So the question is where should we be found in the Lords day, well either outside the gates ostracized or inside the congregation, where we can be 'rich', I real can't see it any other way. As for those made to stumble as a result of Watchtower dogma and the conduct of others Christ is the only one who can read their hearts and appreciate the predicament they find themselves in.

If individuals want to go in all guns blazing then I'm OK with that, it's a personal choice; it just means you will become an outcast. In the case of Robert King he have no real choice in the matter, individuals were saying what's he trying to hide, and when he did disclose his truth identity he was accused of making disciple after himself. However if he was going to be take seriously he had no real choice. Timothy Kline has just put pathways back on line along with a podcast called 'faith in the wilderness', he's been driven by his conscience to speak out and that was his personal choice. Even though speaking out now for me is not the right time (and yes I am fully aware of the ramifications in doing so) and it would be a naivety on my part if I thought of speaking out and sounding the alarm it wouldn't make any difference- it would be a one-way ticket. In fact thinking about it I'd be lucky to make first base.

As for the bothers being aggrieved by the fact that I knew about the coming collapse of the Watchtower you may be correct. But then lets be honest if asked why we didn't speak out the reasons should be all too apparent to them, and their grievance wouldn't be unjustified. We have to bear in mind that people act differently, many will no doubt fly into a rage churning with anger asking themselves why they've wasted years venerating an organization and believing it to be the truth, when in actual fact (to them at least) it was nothing of the sort.


When Jesus comes to judge the nations these ones who drifted back into the world will not escape, it will be theses that Christ will say "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you". We know from scripture that thousands will fall and the love of the greater number will cool off, so Stayawake I'm under no illusions as to what will happen in the end.

There will however be others that will not fall into the trap and will escape; others may be caught in the middle and not sure what to do. Is it not better to be found in the congregation where people know you, being a part of the brotherhood building relationships and trust now, and when the time comes you will be able to at least offer some kind of explanation.

You ask if I have tried testing the Waters? The truthful answer to that question is yes even - I manage to escape by the skin of my teeth.


"Do you realize how long it has taken us here to recover from the shock of finding out the sins and lies that our whole life was built on" e-watchman is nothing new to me, I have know for years that this would happen and the pain has and still is reverberation though my body to this day.

What sort of magic do you feel you have" I have built a good and working relationship with the brothers and if they listen that will be up to them but at least I wont have stood by idle and watch the whole thing collapse around their feet. As I have stated am under on illusion as to what will happen in the end to the brotherhood.

Yes there have been some wicked acts carried out by the Watchtower that have stumble many, especially in resent years, and disfellowshipping individuals for speaking out is one of them, I think its called acts 'Violence' in the land. Even so lets keep in mind I state earlier that the Watchtower has been the rallying point and therefore something set up by Jehovah (as was the nation of Israel) and that's where Christ will start his judgement first will the leadership then down through the congregations. Some will be found suitable and only be beaten with a few strokes (mainly for intuitional idolatry) others will be cast aside. So I'm not here judging any, each has to carry his load and reconcile themselves with Jehovah.

[Jinnvisible]

A new essay has been posted and is now available online in streaming audio[/b]

thanks for extending the duration of the podcast a bit on this one. if anything they usually seem more brief than the time displayed. thanks e-w.