New Insight On Rev 5 & 7?

[meekone]

Well, I must state first that it was not me that caught the following but rather my wife. While considering the following chapters of Revelation we noticed the following:


</span></span>Once again, we see a similarity in the way John hears and describes things. At the beginning of this chapter 7 he hears that those to be sealed number 144,000 and come from all the tribes of Israel including Juda, etc. Thus, these servants of Christ are described in Jewish terms, very simply stated. Also note that John did not count their number or saw their origin but actually was told about it just as he was told about the Lion of the tribe of Juda.

Immediately after these verses describing the sealed ones he uses the same expression or transition he used in chapter 5: "And I beheld, and look,".

Just as the vision of him hearing about the Lion of the tribe of Juda and then seeing the Lamb was the same vision so the same must be said of the vision where he first hears about the number and origin of the sealed ones in Jewish terminology and then continues to say that now he beholds and looks at this same people but in non Jewish terms: as a great crowd that no man could number out of every nation, people, etc.

Finally, note that this crowd is also described to come from the same origin as that sung by the elders and creatures; out of every nation, people, etc. that is.

Thus, we see that in Chapter 5 John first hears about Jesus in Jewish terms, then uses a transition to continue the same vision where he can now behold Jesus in different light.

Same thing happens in Chapter 7. John first hears about the sealed ones in Jewish terms, then uses a transition to continue that same vision where he can now behold the sealed ones in a different light.


</span></span>

</span></span>

[SlaveForJah]

Hello meekone,

Sorry brother, but the 144,000 ARE NOT the GREAT CROWD.

Agape

SlaveForJah

[meekone]

Hello meekone,

Sorry brother, but the 144,000 ARE NOT the GREAT CROWD.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]


Umm.. okay. Then what may be your explanation on the identical writing pattern John used on these two chapters?

In other words, why would John use in chapter 7 the same adjective patterns and transition he previously utilized in chapter five, when he writes that he heard of someone described in Jewish terms, then utilize the transition "And I beheld, and look" so to visually describe the that same person he heard of (the Lion of the tribe of Juda) but in a different light or adjective?

We all must agree that the Lion and the Lamb represent the same person who is to be worthy enough to open the seven seals. We agree on this because the book of revelation says so. It says that both the one elder that spoke to John as well as the elders and creatures that sang both say this Lion-Lamb is the one worthy enough to do so.

It is true that the same verbal confirmation is not said and written about the 144,000 and the great crowd....but we cannot overlook the fact that John writes about the 144K and the great crowd in the same manner he does about the Lion and the Lamb.

Your thoughts?

[Berean]

It is interesting to see how John describes Jesus in those texts, but to project that pattern onto the description of the 144,000 and the great crowd would be problematic. There&#39;s a glaring problem you would run into immediately: how do you explain that the 144,000 are described as having a fixed number, while &#39;no man was able to number&#39; the great crowd?

[meekone]

It is interesting to see how John describes Jesus in those texts, but to project that pattern onto the description of the 144,000 and the great crowd would be problematic. There&#39;s a glaring problem you would run into immediately: how do you explain that the 144,000 are described as having a fixed number, while &#39;no man was able to number&#39; the great crowd?[/b]

Good morning Berean, my wife and I discussed that &#39;problem&#39; of course...actually I brought that question up to her....

She answered simply. It is interesting to see how Jehovah created women in their very own nature, and with that comes other things that sometimes we as men overlook. I am still learning so... :)

In any case, her train of thought is pretty basic, she states that we should not go beyond what is written. In other words, she says John basically wrote the vision he experienced in its original form. This includes both the things he heard and saw in those visions.

She says John simply saw the 4 angels detaining the 4 winds as to protect those servants to be sealed and then heard that their number was 144,000. She says that from a human stand point is simply to reason why John described the great crowd or multitude as one that no man could number for the simple reason that John was a not super human with calculator abilities so as to number this crowd. She says he is not the one that numbered the 144,000 but rather someone else did the counting. The key point here she says is that the Great Crowd must also have a number and can be also numbered but only by those capable of doing so, obviously not us humans. This is why John did not say &#39;the great crowd that no one can number" because John must have known that God and his heavenly creatures did not share our human limitations when it comes to visual perception.

With this comes to mind those of us that served as attendants back in the days... double checking each other after counting attendance and still coming over or short... just a way to illustrate our very limited visual perception....mere humans after all..

Well, finally to conclude her thoughts she also simply sees how is that just like Jesus was described in a symbolic Jewish term and then as a symbolic Lamb; and yet she sees that these two ways (auditory and visually) point to the same person despite the fact that one is said to have prevailed (the Lion) and another one said to have been slain (the Lamb). If you ask me these are quite sharpt contrast statements to describe the same individual but that is what John heard and saw.


Thus, she says the same can be said about the way those anointed servants are described in both an auditory and visually manner in Chapter 7; this is despite the sharp contrast between both how the 144K and the GC are described; that is, the fact that one group is said to have a number and a jewish origin and the other group can not be numbered (from a human stand point) and have a gentile origin.

[stayawake]

EXACTLY Berean, your right on.

After John was shown the 144K, verse 9 brings to our attention, that Johns attention was directed else where.
We read as Jonn looks on
in Rev 7 :9
AFTER these things I saw and look a great crowd that NO Man was able to number
thus showing two distint groups.

[Jinnvisible]

She says that from a human stand point is simply to reason why John described the great crowd or multitude as one that no man could number for the simple reason that John was a not super human with calculator abilities so as to number this crowd. She says he is not the one that numbered the 144,000 but rather someone else did the counting.[/b]

And Jehovah proceeded to speak to Moses in the wilderness of Si´nai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month in the second year of their coming out of the land of Egypt, and he said: "Take the sum of the whole assembly of the sons of Israel according to their families, according to the house of their fathers, by the number of names, all the males, head by head of them

</span>

[meekone]

<div class='quotemain'>She says that from a human stand point is simply to reason why John described the great crowd or multitude as one that no man could number for the simple reason that John was a not super human with calculator abilities so as to number this crowd. She says he is not the one that numbered the 144,000 but rather someone else did the counting.[/b]

And Jehovah proceeded to speak to Moses in the wilderness of Si´nai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month in the second year of their coming out of the land of Egypt, and he said: "Take the sum of the whole assembly of the sons of Israel according to their families, according to the house of their fathers, by the number of names, all the males, head by head of them

</span>
[/b][/quote]


Hi guys! We just came back home from baby stuff shopping so I shall read these interesting posts tomorrow...this baby shopping is exhausting, lol.

[Jeshurun]

I&#39;ve had first-hand experience with autistic children and their amazing abilities to calculate. In the movie "Rain Man", Dustin Hoffman memorized a big fat phone book, phone numbers and all. This is a real phenomenon and gives us a glimpse of the tremendous untapped power of the human brain in our fallen state. Because John said that in his vision he saw "after this" a great crowd makes it a completely separate number of those who have been extended God&#39;s wonderful undeserved gift of salvation.

If there is something to be gleaned from what you and your wife have discovered, meekone, I see it to mean that the first 12,000 are sealed from among the literal Jews who were disciples of Jesus in the first century. Personally I feel that it makes no sense that ALL of them would be chosen to be among the 144,000. After the death of John it was a "goal toward which men press", and Jesus said that "those pressing forward are seizing it".

It cannot be overlooked that the 144,000 are sealed "out of" each tribe. What happens to those not sealed? Are they not spiritual Jews? They are if they are from the 12 tribes. But this Great Crowd goes beyond the 12 tribes, they are from "every nation, people, kindred and tongue". Why do I believe this? The Apostle Paul answered that question in Romans 2:12-16, where he says:

12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the detail<span style="color:#000080">.

From what I gather, in my own humble opinion of course, the Great Crowd includes the vast remnant of spiritual Jews (true Christians) who were not sealed, together with a huge number of people of all nations who have lived by the law even though they never heard the law.

In summary, it seems clear to me that we simply do not yet know of the wonderful plan of Jehovah&#39;s salvation, and we are merely speculating until God judges "the secret things of mankind". I think it will be far different from the Watchtower&#39;s message of gloom and doom and permanent annihilation for anyone not under their corporate umbrella, which, by the way, will not even exist when this judging takes place.

To steal the words of our beloved Sister Stayawake, I speak only for myself. I will not be blinded any longer or teach others blindness as handed down by the elitist evil slave class at Brooklyn Bethel. They seem to forget very easily that Jehovah has the hairs of everyone&#39;s heads numbered and even the fall of a lowly sparrow brings him sadness and regret.

Agape
Jesh

[meekone]

I&#39;ve had first-hand experience with autistic children and their amazing abilities to calculate. In the movie "Rain Man", Dustin Hoffman memorized a big fat phone book, phone numbers and all. This is a real phenomenon and gives us a glimpse of the tremendous untapped power of the human brain in our fallen state. Because John said that in his vision he saw "after this" a great crowd makes it a completely separate number of those who have been extended God&#39;s wonderful undeserved gift of salvation.


Agape
Jesh[/b]

Good morning Jesh,

this is a very interesting post you have written. It reminds me of the original belief CT Russell had in the beginning... where he thought Armaggeddon would destroy mainly the government and those opposed to God&#39;s Kingdom (those who accepted the mark) and not all non-JW mankind as JW&#39;s currently teach.

Your post is quite elaborated, but still leaves some unanswered questions; hopefully all of us here can get them addressed.

For example, This great crowd is said to wear white robes and also sing victory. According to WT teaching, the earthly crowd is not to be considered technically sons of God, clean, and enjoy perfection until the 1,000 years have passed. I remember giving a public talk about this when I was 19, lol... yes, people would be like... hmmm you really seem to know what you&#39;re talking about.

Thus, it makes perfect sense for those servant&#39;s of God to be sealed to wear these white robes and sing victory. Why? Because they have won and reached Heaven, perfection, immortality. Let&#39;s remember that Rev chapter 5 describes the Lamb opening the fifth seal and then the souls of those anointed ones that had been slain are given white robes and told to wait until their fellow servants who are to be killed the same way are fulfilled. This means that those that belong to the 144K all have to experience this fate, right? So when John sees this great crowd he is then told that they are the ones that have come out of the great tribulation; not armaggeddon as WT teaches.

So how can we explain that the GC is wearing these robes that they have made white in the blood of the Lamb if supposedly the earthly GC will not reach perfection 1,000 years after the GT and Armageddon?

Another point to consider: when the 24 elders sang that new song in Chapter 5 they praise the Lamb and thank the Lamb for redeeming them out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation and for making them kings and priests to reign over the earth.

They obviously come from the same places as the Great Crowd. Ok, let&#39;s for a minute not involve the GC. Let&#39;s just concentrate on the the content of this new song and then the vision where John hears that the number of those sealed ones number 144K.

If anyone would say that these 24 elders (which represent the 144K) represent a diffrent group just because it is said that they are redeemed from gentile nations and not the same 12 tribes as the 144K....would anyone agree? Probably not. The 24 elders describe the origin of those sealed ones to come from the nations, then then angels holding the 4 winds tell John these come from the 12 tribes of Israel, and then John again says they come from all nations.

Another thing that should puzzle us is the fact that at one time WT president Franz LIED about the location of the Great Crowd as recorded in the WT of Aug 15, 1980. He stated there that the greek word naos (inner sanctuary) was the one used in Matt 21:12 where it states that Jesus drove the money changers from; thus attempting to give a double meaning to the word naos. The fact is that it is not the word naos but the hieron (whole temple area) the one used in Matthew as well as the other three gospels.

He also lied in the same manner about Matthew 24:1,2. It is hieron and not naos what is found in the greek text.

Thus, this should also make us think about where the Great Crowd is, it is said that they are before the throne of God, in his temple (naos), and that the one seated on the throne will spread his tent (tabernacle, divine habitation) over them. It is also said the Lamb shall lead them... a similar reference that is also made about the 144K.

Well, I have to take a shower :-P

[Jinnvisible]

Some thoughts posted previously, I thought might be relevant:

Jude 23 But continue showing mercy to others, doing so with fear, while you hate even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh.

Simply the mention of outer or inner garments is not an indication of a heavenly or earthly position however a humans [symbolic] outer garment is that which can be affected by a persons conduct. This is what revelation 7:14 (above) is indicating. The people of the great crowd have taken Christ&#39;s suffering into account and applied that to their behavior or conduct. This is also why the inner stain is mentioned as `hated` in Jude in the sense that a decent human being is generally aware that the human condition presently is somewhat wretched.

[Berean]

Another interesting point can be found in Revelation 5:9, 10:

And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

"They are to rule as kings over the earth." Who exactly will live on this earth that need ruling over, if not the great crowd? Why would God choose people to rule as kings in a kingdom without subjects? This alone tells us there must be two distinct groups: the kings, in heaven, and the ones they rule over, on earth.

[Jeshurun]

So how can we explain that the GC is wearing these robes that they have made white in the blood of the Lamb if supposedly the earthly GC will not reach perfection 1,000 years after the GT and Armageddon?[/b]

I found it interesting that in your first post you quoted from the Authorized King James Version. Without getting into a lengthy discussion of Bible translations, the New World Translation is based on the works of Westcott and Hort, both admitted occultists who not only did not believe in Divine inspiration of the scriptures, but also considered the Received Text (or Majority Text) to be heresy, simply because there were "older" texts found in the Vatican Library, on Mount Sinai, and in Alexandria Egypt, all centers of esoteric study.

At 2 Corinthians 2:17 from the AKJV we read: "For we are not as many, who corrupt the word of God." Here Paul was stating that the scriptures were already being corrupted in the first century. The New World Translation obscures this valuable bit of information by translating "corrupt" as "peddlers".

Having that in mind, we see a blatant difference in the text at Revelation 22:14:

(NWT) 14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates.

Since the 144,000 are given immortality, they have no need for the trees of life. This is a human need, and no human will ever be given immortality, or life within themselves. So they will always need access to the trees of life in order to keep living.

The AKJV, and the majority of translations say:

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So we know that the Great Crowd has washed their robes, as stated previously in the seventh chapter, but here in the 22nd chapter, after Armageddon, the Majority Text shows us exactly HOW they gained access to the trees of life.


Another thing that should puzzle us is the fact that at one time WT president Franz LIED about the location of the Great Crowd as recorded in the WT of Aug 15, 1980. He stated there that the greek word naos (inner sanctuary) was the one used in Matt 21:12 where it states that Jesus drove the money changers from; thus attempting to give a double meaning to the word naos. The fact is that it is not the word naos but the hieron (whole temple area) the one used in Matthew as well as the other three gospels.

He also lied in the same manner about Matthew 24:1,2. It is hieron and not naos what is found in the greek text.

Thus, this should also make us think about where the Great Crowd is, it is said that they are before the throne of God, in his temple (naos), and that the one seated on the throne will spread his tent (tabernacle, divine habitation) over them. It is also said the Lamb shall lead them... a similar reference that is also made about the 144K.[/b]

I wouldn&#39;t put too much emphasis on what Franz lied about, because the Bible makes it clear as a whole that there would be those who survive on earth into the New System. Franz did what the Watchtower is known to do, plant false evidence to prove doctrines that don&#39;t need false evidence to be proven. It&#39;s a shame because it only gives opposers an opportunity to say "See! They must be lying because they plant false evidence."

This article brings up many points that would lead to a scriptural conclusion that the Great Crowd is on the earth, before the throne of God:

http://jehovah.to/exe/general/greatcrowd.htm

Agape
Jesh

[meekone]

<div class='quotemain'>So how can we explain that the GC is wearing these robes that they have made white in the blood of the Lamb if supposedly the earthly GC will not reach perfection 1,000 years after the GT and Armageddon?[/b]

I found it interesting that in your first post you quoted from the Authorized King James Version. Without getting into a lengthy discussion of Bible translations, the New World Translation is based on the works of Westcott and Hort, both admitted occultists who not only did not believe in Divine inspiration of the scriptures, but also considered the Received Text (or Majority Text) to be heresy, simply because there were "older" texts found in the Vatican Library, on Mount Sinai, and in Alexandria Egypt, all centers of esoteric study.

At 2 Corinthians 2:17 from the AKJV we read: "For we are not as many, who corrupt the word of God." Here Paul was stating that the scriptures were already being corrupted in the first century. The New World Translation obscures this valuable bit of information by translating "corrupt" as "peddlers".

Having that in mind, we see a blatant difference in the text at Revelation 22:14:

(NWT) 14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates.

Since the 144,000 are given immortality, they have no need for the trees of life. This is a human need, and no human will ever be given immortality, or life within themselves. So they will always need access to the trees of life in order to keep living.

The AKJV, and the majority of translations say:

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So we know that the Great Crowd has washed their robes, as stated previously in the seventh chapter, but here in the 22nd chapter, after Armageddon, the Majority Text shows us exactly HOW they gained access to the trees of life.


Another thing that should puzzle us is the fact that at one time WT president Franz LIED about the location of the Great Crowd as recorded in the WT of Aug 15, 1980. He stated there that the greek word naos (inner sanctuary) was the one used in Matt 21:12 where it states that Jesus drove the money changers from; thus attempting to give a double meaning to the word naos. The fact is that it is not the word naos but the hieron (whole temple area) the one used in Matthew as well as the other three gospels.

He also lied in the same manner about Matthew 24:1,2. It is hieron and not naos what is found in the greek text.

Thus, this should also make us think about where the Great Crowd is, it is said that they are before the throne of God, in his temple (naos), and that the one seated on the throne will spread his tent (tabernacle, divine habitation) over them. It is also said the Lamb shall lead them... a similar reference that is also made about the 144K.[/b]

I wouldn&#39;t put too much emphasis on what Franz lied about, because the Bible makes it clear as a whole that there would be those who survive on earth into the New System. Franz did what the Watchtower is known to do, plant false evidence to prove doctrines that don&#39;t need false evidence to be proven. It&#39;s a shame because it only gives opposers an opportunity to say "See! They must be lying because they plant false evidence."

This article brings up many points that would lead to a scriptural conclusion that the Great Crowd is on the earth, before the throne of God:

http://jehovah.to/exe/general/greatcrowd.htm

Agape
Jesh
[/b][/quote]

Thanks for the link. I shall read it tomorrow... and yes, I do not actually have the AV version but I do have a neat little Interlinear (Hebrew/Greek) program I found for free... check it out:

http://scripture4all.org/

Just download it and you&#39;re done!

[DoubtingThomas]

Hi Jesh: I have noticed in many previous post you have made over the past year or so on this board (including this thread) that you have claimed Westcott & Hort both "claimed" they were occultist. For the benefit of all readers and lurkers on this board (watchman has stated we have thousands of visitors each month), could you please verify the source of this information?

I have researched what you stated intensely (both my library and the internet) and I could not find any statements by either of these scholars themselves that they were "occultist" as you claim they stated.

Also ... for clarification, please, tell us ... what is your (or perhaps their) definition of an "occultist"? The word has many uses in the English language. The word "occult" is somewhat generic, in that most everything that isn&#39;t claimed by any of the major religions is considered to be occult (and many things that are). Even religious scientists have difficulties in defining occultism.

That is critical. Especially if that is what these scholars (Westcott & Hort) claim they actually were.

I hope that you and others do not take me for being argumentive here. I know that we have disagreed on other matters (of course we have agreed on many too). But I believe this statement of yours should be backed by something authoritive, not just some web site that anyone could put up on the WWW. Please use some authoritive encyclopedia or other reference work to support your stated claim.

My reason for this being so important for you to reply to on this thread is simply this Jesh - since the NWT is based on the Westcott & Hort Greek text, and the NWT is considered by many to be one of the finest translations available, and has been so supported and defended by Robert King himself, and qouted and cited and used by most posters on this board, I wonder why you seem to be so oppossed to it (that is the NWT and Westcott/Hort text) due to it&#39;s reliance on the published Westcott & Hort Greek text?

I eagerly anticipate and look forward to your reply.

Agape,
A Doubting Tom (DT)

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

Hi DT,

I&#39;m interested in your comments to Jesh, because I also have alluded to the occult links of Westcott & Hort in other posts. It has to be said that if the issue is one which you consider extremely important, and I agree that it is, you either treat the NWT with some healthy scepticism and also refer to other translations for corroberation etc, or you must inevitably conduct a wide ranging examination for yourself to reach a conclusion which satisfies you. The stance you appear to be taking is that all the anecdotal evidence can be brushed aside and that you can rely wholly on this translation, I would simply ask whether that is wise?

You state "the NWT is considered by many to be one of the finest translations available" - just as you ask Jesh to substantiate his concerns of Westcott & Hort, I wonder - who is saying this? Where are the scholarly credentials and where can I find such statements by other scholars of the Greek language and the bible? A quick search on Wikipedia for the NWT reveals some scholars are supportive of the translation, some are neutral and others are critical. As I dont speak Greek myself, I am forced to make contextual comparisons in English, I imagine most of us are in the same boat.

B.F. Westcott is identified as "a mystic" by the standard reference work of his day: The Encyclopedia Britannica (1911). Princeton University Press&#39; recent book, The Christian Socialist Revival (1968, Peter d&#39;A Jones) says B.F. Westcott was "a mystic" (p. 179). The highly respected Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics identifies both B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort as Alexandrian mystics (see &#39;Alexandrian Theology&#39; et al.). The Occult Illustrated Dictionary even cites the Bible correctors B.F. Westcott, Hort, and Lightfoot and their &#39;ghostly&#39; games. There is little doubt that they were members of the "Ghostlie Guild" in their younger days or that Westcott&#39;s son stated he was a spiritualist even at the time of his involvement in the revisionist texts. This should at the very least cause us some concern. Do not forget that the WTS has placed its reliance on suspect authorities in the past, such as Johannes Greber and he was often quoted in support of the NWT. Surely you do not doubt his occult/spiritistic practices?

You are no doubt familiar with the name Helena Blavatsky who was a founder member of the Theosophical Society? Westcott and Hort were also members. You might want to research this organisation and take a close look at the symbols used in its publications etc. Take a look at its objects and background at http://www.theosophical-society.org.uk/ , the new age movement which is so closely associated with the UN and what it or its successor will seek as the Eighth King is set out beautifully for you on this website.

I would not not go as far as to say the NWT is spurious or of no value, personally I find it to be generally well written and understandable, but it is not an infallible translation and should not be regarded as such. You of all people DT should keep an open mind, but if after considering all these things and really investigating the reason for concern on the part of Jesh & I and others, you are personally happy, that&#39;s fine with me.

EF

[Jeshurun]

Thank you EF.

Westcott & Hort&#39;s own children wrote biographies on them exposing their Darwinist and Humanist beliefs.

One was called "The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort" which can be found easily on search engine.

Many quotations can be found here:

http://www.acts1711.com/hortwes.htm

Much enlightening info here:

http://www.watch.pair.com/occult.html

Hort&#39;s Apostles (there were 33 of them) included among it&#39;s members one Arthur Balfour.

From http://babylonmysteryreligion.com/united...agenda.htm (http://babylonmysteryreligion.com/unitednationsagenda.htm) we read:

From Arthur Balfour, who was a member of Hort&#39;s Apostles(Hort&#39;s is the one who helped produce the Greek text that changed the emphasis of the Bible and removed many of the aspects of Jesus Christ&#39; sovereignty and power from the word of God), Westcott&#39;s Eranus (Hort called this group a senior Apostles club), as well as President of the S.P.R (Society of Psychic Research), soon became the Prime Minister of England and instrumental in the first League of Nations. The League of Nations is the basis for the United Nations.

Balfour not only headed the S.P.R., holding seances at his home, but initiated a group called "The Synthetic Society" whose goal was to create a "one world religion". He invited Frederic Myers of the S.P.R. to join and together they created "The preamble of all religions." It included the dogma, "departed spirits can communicate."

Here&#39;s an excerpt from an enlightening article, the full article can be found here:

http://www.seekgod.ca/ghostsociety.htm

Dr Eberhard Nestle was part of the revision committee for the translation of a new Greek New Testament, following the efforts of occultists Westcott and Hort. Barbara and Kurt Aland worked alongside Dr. Nestle.

"In 1898, Eberhard Nestle published the NESTLE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT, which underlies the modern versions. He followed the Hort and Westcott New Greek Text used for the English Revised Version and three other editions of the 1800&#39;s. In 1950, Kurt Aland assumed ownership and the Nestle Text became the NESTLE/ALAND TEXT. The editing committee was comprised of Kurt Aland and Matthew Black, who were unbelievers, Roman Catholic Cardinal Carlo M. Martini and two apostates, Bruce Metzger and Alan Wikgren...

"...Gail Riplinger observes, "Since both the Catholic and "New" Protestant bibles are now based on the identical critical Greek texts (UBS/Nestles), which are based on the same 1% minority Greek Manuscripts (Vaticanus, the Catholic doctrinal bend in the NIV and NASB and other &#39;New&#39; bibles is substantial." (37)..." 44.

The Aland&#39;s and several others edited the book, The Greek New Testament, and stated:

"Preface to the first edition... vii-ix. The project was initiated, organized and administered by Eugene A. Nida, who also took part in Committee discussions." pg ix

"The [Editorial] Committee carried out its work in four principal stages: (i) on the basis of Westcott&#39;s and Hort&#39;s edition of the Greek New Testament a comparison was made of the text and apparatus of several other editions including those of Nestle, Bover, Merk, and Volgels, and to some extent those of Tischendorf and von Soden, in order to determine which of the variant readings warranted further study..."45.

In other words, Eugene A. Nida and Dr. Eberhard Nestle were part of that same Revision Committee that collaborated to produce the corrupt text upon which most new Bible versions are based. The text they used had been originally edited for the British and Foreign Bible Society, founded by the Clapham Sect. From the article, A Chronology of American & English Revision, we can appreciate the significance of these associations.

"1851 - B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort founded the Cambridge University Ghost Society, one of the early pioneers of modern Spiritualist inquiry as recorded by Alan Gould in The Founders of Psychical Research:

"In 1851 was founded at Cambridge a Society to &#39;conduct a serious and earnest inquiry into the nature of the phenomena vaguely called supernatural,&#39; and a number of distinguished persons became members." [Alan Gauld, The Founders of Psychical Research, NY:Schocken Books, 1968, p. 66]

NOTE: The Cambridge Ghost Society was the parent of the Society For Psychical Research, [http://moebius.psy.ed.ac.uk/spr.html] according to The Society for Psychical Research: An Outline of its History:

"Among the numerous persons and groups who in the middle of the nineteenth century were making enquiries into psychical occurrences may be mentioned a society from which our own can claim direct descent. In the Life of Edward White Benson, Archbishop of Canterbury, by his son, A. C. Benson, will be found, under the year 1851-2, the following paragraph:

&#39;Among my father&#39;s diversions at Cambridge was the foundation of a &#39;Ghost Society,&#39; the forerunner of the Psychical Society [meaning the S.P.R.] for the investigation of the supernatural. Lightfoot, Westcott and Hort were among the members. He was then, as always, more interested in psychical phenomena than he cared to admit.&#39;

"Lightfoot and Westcott both became bishops, and Hort Professor of Divinity. The S.P.R. has hardly lived up to the standard of ecclesiastical eminence set by the parent society." [brackets in original] [W.H. Salter, The Society For Psychical Research: An Outline of its History, London, 1948, pp. 5,6]

1853 - B.F.Westcott and F.J.A. Hort begin New Greek Testament in England....

1858-9 - In England, Dr. Trench calls for a "better" revision that would "set aside the so-called Baptists" as revisers.

"The &#39;Edinburgh Review&#39; and many similar periodicals took strong ground for its revision, and, in 1858, Dr. Trench, then Dean of Westminster, issued an elaborate treatise showing the imperfect state of the commonly received version, and the urgent need of its revision,... [Armitage, pp. 909-10]"

"...&#39;The meeting of the New Testament Revisers was intensely interesting. Lightfoot, Westcott, Hort, Scrivener, Angus, Merivale, Eadie, David Brown, the Bishop of Gloucester...the Bishop of Salisbury and others were all there. No outsider is admitted except the Archbishop of Canterbury.&#39;."

The Cambridge Ghost Society has included such members as: B.F. Westcott, A. Barry; E.W. Benson, H. Bradshaw, Hon. A. Gordon, F.J.A. Hort, H. Luard, C.B. Scott, Gordon Gorham, Henry Sedgwick, Frederic Meyers, Edmund Gurney and Edward White Benson, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Raleigh.

Two years after founding the Ghost Society, which was the precursor to the Society for Psychical Research, F.J.A. Hort and B. F. Westcott embarked on the "New Testament Scheme." Throughout their entire years involved in this Bible revision, they were immersed in various secret societies and political initiatives including the Hermes Club, Ghost Society, Company of Apostles, and Eranus, the Society for Psychical Research and the socialist Fabian Society, which founded the globalist London School of Economics and Political Science. 46. London School of Economics

[DoubtingThomas]

Thanks for that information EF & Jesh, but you did not answer my question on "what is an occultist?", and "where is your source that W&H were occultist?". A mystic, which you are now calling them, is not the same as an occultist.

The term "mysticism" is often used to refer to beliefs which go beyond the purely exoteric practices of mainstream religion while still being related to or based in a mainstream religious doctrine. In that sense, most of us here on this board could be considered mystics.

Some have argued that Christianity itself was a mystical sect that arose out of Judaism.

Also .. Belonging to the Theosophical Society should in no way discredit their scholarly work. In fact, perhaps it was best that these Greek scholars had limited ties with organized religion, as it may have slanted their views or effected their work.

It seems to me that this a a case of attacking the messenger or mud-slinging in an effort to discredit what is a generally accepted scholarly work by nearly all Bible scholars.

DT

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

DT, I&#39;m sorry I see that you are after all not a doubter at all, you are willing to believe black is white and to argue over whether black is in fact a colour at all!

I think Jesh and I have given you adequate information to cast some doubt over the spiritistic practices that Westcott and Hort were involved in. If you really believe what you say about the Theosophical Society, then frankly I&#39;m amazed. The occult connections of that organisation are manifest for anyone to see. I presume on the basis of your reasoning it was perfectly acceptable for the WTS to be a UN NGO since the end justifies the means.

The following is a direct quote from the Theosophical Society&#39;s website (link already provided) - "Theosophy is a specific body of knowledge comprising the esoteric tradition, sometimes variously called the Wisdom Religion, Occultism, the Ancient Wisdom, etc., of which the broad principles were made available to the public for the first time in the Society&#39;s early classical literature, e.g. the works of Madame Blavatsky, etc. "

At least they themselves acknowledge the occultism which is encompassed by their objectives!

As I have already said, the NWT is not all bad, but if you think that something written or influenced even potentially by demonic forces is not a cause for concern at any level, I must disagree. Of course, the Watchtower magazine as recent as this year (and the subject of an important thread on the db) still considers that the GB receives guidance and direction from resurrected annointed in heaven, which as you may recall, prompted many here to ask who in fact was communicating with them (channeling) since the annointed are yet to be resurrected! So I suppose you are in line with WTS thinking all round.

EF

[SlaveForJah]

Hello Brothers,

Christian Greetings to all.

Perhaps one of you should start a new thread on the topic...that is, the Westcott & Hort Text, pros and cons...or something to that effect? I am intersted to see further thoughts from all involved so far.

Agape

SlaveForJah

[SlaveForJah]

<div class='quotemain'>Hello meekone,

Sorry brother, but the 144,000 ARE NOT the GREAT CROWD.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]


Umm.. okay. Then what may be your explanation on the identical writing pattern John used on these two chapters?

In other words, why would John use in chapter 7 the same adjective patterns and transition he previously utilized in chapter five, when he writes that he heard of someone described in Jewish terms, then utilize the transition "And I beheld, and look" so to visually describe the that same person he heard of (the Lion of the tribe of Juda) but in a different light or adjective?

We all must agree that the Lion and the Lamb represent the same person who is to be worthy enough to open the seven seals. We agree on this because the book of revelation says so. It says that both the one elder that spoke to John as well as the elders and creatures that sang both say this Lion-Lamb is the one worthy enough to do so.

It is true that the same verbal confirmation is not said and written about the 144,000 and the great crowd....but we cannot overlook the fact that John writes about the 144K and the great crowd in the same manner he does about the Lion and the Lamb.

Your thoughts?
[/b][/quote]

Hello meekone,

I am sure you noticed this already, but there is a flaw in your deduction. The 144,000 are said to be chosen from ISRAEL, while the Great Crowd comes from "nations and tribes and peoples and tongues". Israel and the nations are clearly distinct in their respective representations. I find this irreconcilable with your asserted position.

Unfortunately you are mistaking the 24 elders for the 144,000 and also the 144,000 for the remainder of humanity that is to inherit the earth. There is no evidence for painting the 24 elders as anything other than exactly what the book of Revelation tells us that they are...24 elders that have the privelege of worshipping in Jehovah&#39;s presence and performing special priestly tasks. The 144,000 were bought from the earth, whereas the Great Crowd inherit the earth.

Please consult the whole of scripture on this matter. It should become clear with prayerful consideration.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[meekone]

WHO DELETED THE REST OF THIS THREAD????? THAT WAS MEAN.

[SlaveForJah]

WHO DELETED THE REST OF THIS THREAD????? THAT WAS MEAN.[/b]

Hello meekone,

I don&#39;t think anyone deleted anything. I have the whole thread still showing up here on my end. Perhaps technical issues? I&#39;m not sure. Unless you posted something after my last post, but I had not seen anything.

Please, if there is anything that is not showing up, could you repost it? I would love to see your responses.

Agape

SlaveForJah

[Candace]

I don&#39;t see anything missing either. If an administrator edits something, they usually leaves a reply stating why the item was edited. You can contact the admin. of the board with email address you can find on this page:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?pid=1

[Administration]

I don&#39;t see anything missing either. If an administrator edits something, they usually leaves a reply stating why the item was edited. You can contact the admin. of the board with email address you can find on this page:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?pid=1[/b]

To my knowledge, no part of this thread has been deleted or otherwise modified.

--Administration

[watchman]

I second that. I have not removed anything

Watchman

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

As an active participant on this thread (and awaiting a reply from DT), I can confirm that it is here in its entirety.

EF

[SlaveForJah]

As an active participant on this thread (and awaiting a reply from DT), I can confirm that it is here in its entirety.

EF[/b]

Hello EF,

Christian Greetings.

Do you think maybe you or DT could start a new thread on the W&H Text topic, so that this thread could still address meekone&#39;s original thoughts on Revelation 5 & 7 as they pertain to the 144,000...? Just a thought. Anyhow...glad to see you around.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[dgibson]

Dear, friends

I think meekone&#39;s wife is right, the number of the great crowd can and will be counted by those who can count them, but it is not a pre-determined number as the 144,000. The counting, if taken place in the heavens, will be done after all have crossed over into the new system. If Jehovah determines the census is unimportant to be taken, then he will issue instructions for it not to take place. This is a future event, and the scriptures only allows us to percieve that many will be saved according to their faith put forth in Jehovah, and not mankind.In short, there can&#39;t be a pre-determined number of persons making up the great crowd, if so, then Jehovah would be guilty of direct mind control of individual souls, rather than letting them decide for themselves, whether they wish to love him, or wear the mark of satans wild beast, forfeiting their chance of everlasting life forever in a paradise. They (the great crowd at the very end of the system of things) will know full well the weight of their discission at, and during the final preaching campaign. Jehovah will lift the veil over everyone&#39;s hearts/minds, and tell them in their own ears which way to go, but yet some will refuse to listen, and die forever.

Love
David

[meekone]

<div class='quotemain'>WHO DELETED THE REST OF THIS THREAD????? THAT WAS MEAN.[/b]

SORRY GUYS!!! I DID NOT NOTICE I WAS READING ON PAGE 2 OF THIS THREAD... MY BAD!!!

meekone




[/b][/quote]

[Jinnvisible]

I tried to delete the thread but i couldn`t. I don`t have any super powers.

[meekone]

I tried to delete the thread but i couldn`t. I don`t have any super powers.[/b]


LOL

[DoubtingThomas]

Greetings EF. I have been out of town a few days (just another worldly holiday here in the USA), and I have not got a chance to re-read this entire thread again in detail, so I am not sure what "response" you are waiting for. My apologies, but could you please repost it or ask it again for me?

If it has anything to do with my previous post, then let me re-state once more, that attacking the messenger with "mud-slinging" rather than attcking some specific part of the message, is not Christian. That is what you and Jesh are doing by falsely accusing W&H of being occultist. The W&H text is recognized by many if not most Bible scholars as a fine and scholarly work. Many, many translations have been based on it, not just the NWT. If you want to debate the specifics of it (W&H), then I will let you do that with the other Greek scholars. I certainly am not one of them.

It is so obvious after reading your and Jesh&#39;s last post (before I left town) and seeing the web site links used as your so-called evidence of support, that these are nothing but bitter and vengeful apostate ex-JW&#39;s you are citing as "authorative" references. C&#39;mon, give us a break here. Don&#39;t play us for fools. W&H were Greek scholars. Nothing more and nothing less. Your claim of there being occultist, and thereby inferring the same thing to the NWT translation committee is ridiculous. Please read Robert King (e-watchmans) "101 answers to ... JW&#39;s Using the NWT" if you want more support to the excellence of the NWT.

I am not going to waste any more of my time defending the NWT. Enough information is available on Roberts posted essay&#39;s and on the internet defending the NWT. Anyone can research this for themselves. No translation is perfect, but the NWT is the one cited and used by most on this board. That is why I was curious as to you and Jesh are "bashing" it (the NWT). Please ... give us all a break here. It is not an "occultist" translation as you seem to want people to think.

If you want to get carried away with "occultist" ideas, then none of us here should even watch or play baseball. Afterall ... Abner Doubleday based the shape of the baseball diamond on an "occultist" symbol. Do you get my point? I am sure that any minor touching of "mysticism" by either W or H did not have an effect on their work. At least ... not anymore than it did on the game of baseball.

Balance and common sense is needed when deciding on a preferred Bible translation. Robert King has a lot more Bible knowledge than most of us here on this board. Have you ever heard him bash the NWT? If it was necessary, I am sure that he would have done so. But no ... the WT has a lot more sins they are guilty of and need to be exposed of, than just the fact that they relied on the W&H Greek text as many other Bible Societies also have. Let&#39;s stick the with more important matters, rather than make ourselves look like petty disgruntled ex-JW&#39;s to others who visit this board, by bringing forth (exposing) every possible minor stupid conspiracy theory and "sin" lagainst the WT like the fact they used the W&H text as many other Bible translations also have. We don&#39;t need to lower ourselves to that level like so many other apostates on the internet have done by mud-slinging.

BTW (just for the record) - the NWT is not the preferred translation I use in my personal studies and Bible reading. In fact, I get a few weird glances and looks from others at the Kingdom Hall when they see me show up at meetings with my preferred translation. I only qoute the NWT here on this board becaues that is the translation that most of us here are familiar with and use on a daily basis. No need in bashing it. The WT is guilty of enough true sins without anyone of us here having to dream up or fabricate new ones that are minor or petty if even a real "sin" at all.

Christian Love,
DT

[Jeshurun]

W&H were Greek scholars. Nothing more and nothing less.[/b]

Hort&#39;s Apostles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Apostles

Members of the Apostles have included (with the year they joined in brackets, where known):

George Tomlinson, Bishop of Gibraltar (1820)
J.F.D. "Frederick" Maurice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Maurice), Christian socialist writer (1823) Erasmus Alvey Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Alvey_Darwin), brother of Charles Darwin (1823) John Sterling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sterling_%28author%29), writer and poet (1825) John Mitchell Kemble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mitchell_Kemble), historian (1826) Charles Buller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Buller), barrister and MP (1826) Richard Chenevix Trench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Chenevix_Trench), Christian writer, Archbishop of Dublin (1827) Arthur Buller (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arthur_Buller&action=edit), judge of the Supreme Court, Calcutta (1828) Arthur Hallam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Hallam), poet (1829) Alfred Tennyson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Tennyson), English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) poet, member of the House of Lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords) (1829) Sir William Harcourt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Harcourt), Chancellor of the Exchequer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer) (1847) Fenton John Anthony Hort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenton_John_Anthony_Hort) (1851), theologian James Clerk Maxwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell), physicist (1852) Henry Sidgwick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Sidgwick), philosopher (1857) Oscar Browning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Browning), educator G. H. Hardy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._H._Hardy), mathematician. A.N. Whitehead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.N._Whitehead), mathematician, logician and philosopher (1884) Roger Eliot Fry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Eliot_Fry), art historian (1887) Bertrand Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell), philosopher, member of the House of Lords (1892) Goldsworthy Lowes Dickinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldsworthy_Lowes_Dickinson), historian and philosopher J. M. E. McTaggart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._M._E._McTaggart), philosopher G.E. Moore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.E._Moore), philosopher (1894) G. M. Trevelyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._M._Trevelyan), historian (1895) E. M. Forster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._M._Forster), writer (1901) Desmond MacCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_MacCarthy), newspaper critic Lytton Strachey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytton_Strachey), writer and critic (1902) James Strachey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strachey), translator of Freud. See Times obituary, 11 May 1967. Robert Trevelyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Trevelyan), poet and translator Saxon Sidney Turner, writer
Francis Birrell, critic and journalist
Leonard Woolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Woolf) John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes), economist, member of the House of Lords (1903) Rupert Brooke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Brooke), poet (1908) Raymond Mortimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Mortimer), art critic, journalist, editor of the New Statesman Ludwig Wittgenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein), philosopher (1912); Wittgenstein attended only a handful of meetings. Gerald Shove, economist. See Times obituary, 18 August 1947.
John Tressider "Jack" Sheppard, classicist, provost of King&#39;s College Lionel Penrose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Penrose) (1920) R. B. Braithwaite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._B._Braithwaite), philosopher (1921) Frank P. Ramsey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_P._Ramsey), philosopher (1921) Dadie Rylands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadie_Rylands) (1922) Dennis Robertson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Robertson), economist (1926) Dennis Proctor (1927). See Times obituary, 31 August 1983.
Anthony Blunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Blunt), art adviser to the Queen, MI5 officer, KGB spy (1927) Julian Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Bell), poet (1928) Hugh Sykes Davies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Sykes_Davies) (1932). See Times obituary, 8 June 1984. Guy Burgess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Burgess), MI6 officer, KGB spy (1932) Victor Rothschild (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Rothschild), financier, member of the House of Lords (1933) William Grey Walter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Grey_Walter) (1933) D. G. Champernowne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._G._Champernowne) (1934) Alan Lloyd Hodgkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Lloyd_Hodgkin) (1935) Michael Whitney Straight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Whitney_Straight), American magazine publisher, member of the Whitney family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_family), Presidential speechwriter, KGB spy (1936) Derek Prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Prince) (1938) Peter Shore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Shore), Labour politician (1947) Robin Gandy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Gandy), mathematician (1947) Noel Annan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Annan), intelligence officer, provost of King&#39;s College, Cambridge, provost of University College, London, vice-chancellor of the University of London, member of the House of Lords (1948) Harry Gordon Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Gordon_Johnson) (1951) Eric Hobsbawm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hobsbawm), historian Geoffrey Lloyd, emeritus professor of classics at Cambridge; Master of Darwin College, Cambridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_College%2C_Cambridge) Anthony Kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Kelly), headmaster, professor of education, author (1979)

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

If you want to get carried away with "occultist" ideas, then none of us here should even watch or play baseball. Afterall ... Abner Doubleday based the shape of the baseball diamond on an "occultist" symbol. Do you get my point? I am sure that any minor touching of "mysticism" by either W or H did not have an effect on their work. At least ... not anymore than it did on the game of baseball.


Christian Love,
DT[/b]

Um - no , I dont get your point DT.

I agree with you, that there are more issues connected with the WTS which are more important, but you raised this issue for debate in the first place, so it is a little late to now try seizing the high ground as though Jesh and I are just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If you look at my posts on this subject you will find that I have never condemned the NWT out of hand, indeed I have said it has much to commend it. Jesh has said something similar, especially regarding the use of Jehovah&#39;s name, so please dont misrepresent us. I have also said, that if you consider this to be unimportant, you are free to hold your own opinion and ignore what has been said.

The problem here is that you have decided to defend not the NWT per se, but two non-witnesses, Messrs Westcott and Hort and that is the issue on which I have written primarily.

DT, I am not going to fall out with you on this matter but I do think your line of argument has degenerated into farce. I have the greatest respect for Robert and recognise his ability(I have said so repeatedly over past months), but if I must believe every word he speaks without question, I soon fall back into the position I was in with the GB! No, we must all decide what is right for ourselves. Incidentally, i dont know why you think I am "a disgruntled ex-Jehovah&#39;s Witness"?? I thought we were all Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses here?

To sum up, my position is this - if there is the slightest doubt in my mind about any authority on which the WTS relies which makes me consider the following scripture -
2Cor 6:14-18 - I will exercise a degree of caution, nothing more and nothing less. if you do not care to, as I have said before, that is up to you.

EF

[renewed]

<div class='quotemain'>Hello meekone,

Sorry brother, but the 144,000 ARE NOT the GREAT CROWD.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]


Umm.. okay. Then what may be your explanation on the identical writing pattern John used on these two chapters?

Your thoughts?
[/b][/quote]

Speaking of identical writing patterns...........
This from www.end-times.com, the book "2008 Gods Final Witness" chapter "Time Has Run Out for Man" page 75 - 77;

The angel, who carried the instruction from God to the first
four angels of the Seventh Seal, told them that they could not
begin to sound their trumpets until his job was finished. This
angel sets the seal of God upon those whom God has finished
training and made ready to serve in His new government. As of
this very moment, there are some now living, whom God has
finished training, who have been sealed. There are a very few
others who are yet to complete that training, and as soon as they
have, then they too will be sealed. When that sealing is complete,
then the entire 144,000 will be sealed. Then, the Seventh Seal
will be opened, and those four angels, who had been restrained,
will blow their trumpets. The result will lead to the demise of the
United States.
This same angel, who set the seal of God on those who
finished their training, announced the total number of all those
whom God would seal—144,000. John heard that number and
recorded what he heard. Later in the same chapter, John is given
a vision of this same group. Notice how he describes it:
After this [This was after John had been told about this
144,000 whom God divided into twelve organizational
groups of 12,000 each.] I looked, and before me there
was a great multitude which no man could number, of all
nations, kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before

the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes
and palms in their hands. (Revelation 7:9)
This time, John was shown this large number, and he
described it as a great multitude. Man is incapable of looking out
over such a large multitude and counting it, and man does not
have the ability to know the number of people God has prepared
through time. Only God knows all those whom He has prepared
and sealed. God had to reveal this to man. So in the beginning of
this chapter, He told the number to John.
Then one of the twenty-four elders of God asked John a
question:
Who are these who are clothed in white robes and from
where do they come? And I [John] said, “Sir, you know.�
Then he said to me, “These are those who came out of
great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and
made them white in the blood of the Lamb� (Revelation
7:13-14).
As with the same group mentioned in Revelation 5, these are
also described as being redeemed by the blood of the Passover
Lamb—Jesus Christ. These have been called by God from among
people throughout the world, through time. Their training has
been difficult, and they have battled to change their nature in
order to yield to God’s will, rather than their own. This
conquering process is described as coming out of great
tribulation.
By not understanding the structure of God’s new government,
some have believed that the great multitude described in the last
half of Revelation 7 is a different group from those 144,000
described in the first half. In addition, since the 144,000 are
further broken down into twelve groups of 12,000, with each
bearing the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel, some have

believed that this meant that these people were literally—
physically—of these twelve tribes. This is not true.

:icon_redface:

[SlaveForJah]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Hello meekone,

Sorry brother, but the 144,000 ARE NOT the GREAT CROWD.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]


Umm.. okay. Then what may be your explanation on the identical writing pattern John used on these two chapters?

Your thoughts?
[/b][/quote]

Speaking of identical writing patterns...........
This from www.end-times.com, the book "2008 Gods Final Witness" chapter "Time Has Run Out for Man" page 75 - 77;

The angel, who carried the instruction from God to the first
four angels of the Seventh Seal, told them that they could not
begin to sound their trumpets until his job was finished. This
angel sets the seal of God upon those whom God has finished
training and made ready to serve in His new government. As of
this very moment, there are some now living, whom God has
finished training, who have been sealed. There are a very few
others who are yet to complete that training, and as soon as they
have, then they too will be sealed. When that sealing is complete,
then the entire 144,000 will be sealed. Then, the Seventh Seal
will be opened, and those four angels, who had been restrained,
will blow their trumpets. The result will lead to the demise of the
United States.
This same angel, who set the seal of God on those who
finished their training, announced the total number of all those
whom God would sealâ€"144,000. John heard that number and
recorded what he heard. Later in the same chapter, John is given
a vision of this same group. Notice how he describes it:
After this [This was after John had been told about this
144,000 whom God divided into twelve organizational
groups of 12,000 each.] I looked, and before me there
was a great multitude which no man could number, of all
nations, kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before

the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes
and palms in their hands. (Revelation 7:9)
This time, John was shown this large number, and he
described it as a great multitude. Man is incapable of looking out
over such a large multitude and counting it, and man does not
have the ability to know the number of people God has prepared
through time. Only God knows all those whom He has prepared
and sealed. God had to reveal this to man. So in the beginning of
this chapter, He told the number to John.
Then one of the twenty-four elders of God asked John a
question:
Who are these who are clothed in white robes and from
where do they come? And I [John] said, “Sir, you know.�
Then he said to me, “These are those who came out of
great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and
made them white in the blood of the Lamb� (Revelation
7:13-14).
As with the same group mentioned in Revelation 5, these are
also described as being redeemed by the blood of the Passover
Lambâ€"Jesus Christ. These have been called by God from among
people throughout the world, through time. Their training has
been difficult, and they have battled to change their nature in
order to yield to God’s will, rather than their own. This
conquering process is described as coming out of great
tribulation.
By not understanding the structure of God’s new government,
some have believed that the great multitude described in the last
half of Revelation 7 is a different group from those 144,000
described in the first half. In addition, since the 144,000 are
further broken down into twelve groups of 12,000, with each
bearing the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel, some have

believed that this meant that these people were literallyâ€"
physicallyâ€"of these twelve tribes. This is not true.

:icon_redface:
[/b][/quote]

Hello renewed, and welcome,

So, now we are an "everybody goes to heaven" site? Isn&#39;t there already one of those down the street? Are you and meekone back in the spiritual "Paradise"?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[renewed]

Well, I must state first that it was not me that caught the following but rather my wife. While considering the following chapters of Revelation we noticed the following:


</span></span>Once again, we see a similarity in the way John hears and describes things. At the beginning of this chapter 7 he hears that those to be sealed number 144,000 and come from all the tribes of Israel including Juda, etc. Thus, these servants of Christ are described in Jewish terms, very simply stated. Also note that John did not count their number or saw their origin but actually was told about it just as he was told about the Lion of the tribe of Juda.

Immediately after these verses describing the sealed ones he uses the same expression or transition he used in chapter 5: "And I beheld, and look,".

Just as the vision of him hearing about the Lion of the tribe of Juda and then seeing the Lamb was the same vision so the same must be said of the vision where he first hears about the number and origin of the sealed ones in Jewish terminology and then continues to say that now he beholds and looks at this same people but in non Jewish terms: as a great crowd that no man could number out of every nation, people, etc.

Finally, note that this crowd is also described to come from the same origin as that sung by the elders and creatures; out of every nation, people, etc. that is.

Thus, we see that in Chapter 5 John first hears about Jesus in Jewish terms, then uses a transition to continue the same vision where he can now behold Jesus in different light.

Same thing happens in Chapter 7. John first hears about the sealed ones in Jewish terms, then uses a transition to continue that same vision where he can now behold the sealed ones in a different light.


</span></span>

</span></span>[/b]

Hello too SFJ,
The above was the beginning of this thread by meekone. I was only pointing out that this new insight is not as new as one might think. I do not advocate meekones position in this thread nor the book cited. The book I quoted from was written in 2005 and gave almost the exact explanation as meekones wife gave for why the 144,000 could be the great crowd.
A coincidence? You will have to decide that for yourself.
But then again you run the risk of some independent thinking. :hond:

[Candace]

(Revelation 7:1-17) . . .After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;

6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Naph′ta‧li twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Ma‧nas′seh twelve thousand;

7 out of the tribe of Sim′e‧on twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Is′sa‧char twelve thousand;

8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u‧lun twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and [b]the One seated on the throne will spread his tent* over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

*cross reference scriptures for tent

(Psalm 15:1) O Jehovah, who will be a guest in your tent? Who will reside in your holy mountain?

(Revelation 21:3) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent# of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.

#(Ezekiel 37:27) . . .And my tabernacle will actually prove to be over them, and I shall certainly become their God, and they themselves will become my people.. . .

[billy]

I was thinking on the same lines as you Candace - you added a few more reference scriptures than i thought of

REV 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb."

REV 7:13 And in response one of the elders said to me: "These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" 14 So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes."

REv 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

we see from scripture there is to be a "new earth" - someone has to make up the new earth

the wording from these two scriptures are almost identical

I do have doubts about the verse - (as some manuscripts havent got this verse in them) -

<span style="color:#800080">2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples.
</sup>
</span></span></span></span></span></span>

[Jinnvisible]

There are some very interesting aspects to that perspective sister billy.

[Berean]

it seems logical and biblical to me that the great crowd will be granted to eat from the tree of life - so they dont die - and this scripture saying the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven - could it be possible a physical part of the Christs kingdom will be set up on earth and angels with flaming swords will protect the city and its inhabitants from those being ressurected to a judgement and those to life get to go into the city?</span></span></span>[/b]
I have often wondered about this. I don&#39;t think it is beyond reason that Jehovah will establish his Kingdom close to his subjects, not only figuratively speaking, but literally perhaps as well. How this will happen nobody knows of course, but it should be very beautiful indeed, especially when you consider Revelation 21:24-22:2, a passage which could be explained as New Jerusalem being connected to the Earth in some way - at the very least through the river of water of life, and the light that emanates from this most holy city.

[panda]

I&#39;ve had first-hand experience with autistic children and their amazing abilities to calculate. In the movie "Rain Man", Dustin Hoffman memorized a big fat phone book, phone numbers and all. This is a real phenomenon and gives us a glimpse of the tremendous untapped power of the human brain in our fallen state. Because John said that in his vision he saw "after this" a great crowd makes it a completely separate number of those who have been extended God&#39;s wonderful undeserved gift of salvation.

If there is something to be gleaned from what you and your wife have discovered, meekone, I see it to mean that the first 12,000 are sealed from among the literal Jews who were disciples of Jesus in the first century. Personally I feel that it makes no sense that ALL of them would be chosen to be among the 144,000. After the death of John it was a "goal toward which men press", and Jesus said that "those pressing forward are seizing it".

It cannot be overlooked that the 144,000 are sealed "out of" each tribe. What happens to those not sealed? Are they not spiritual Jews? They are if they are from the 12 tribes. But this Great Crowd goes beyond the 12 tribes, they are from "every nation, people, kindred and tongue". Why do I believe this? The Apostle Paul answered that question in Romans 2:12-16, where he says:

12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the detail.

From what I gather, in my own humble opinion of course, the Great Crowd includes the vast remnant of spiritual Jews (true Christians) who were not sealed, together with a huge number of people of all nations who have lived by the law even though they never heard the law.

In summary, it seems clear to me that we simply do not yet know of the wonderful plan of Jehovah&#39;s salvation, and we are merely speculating until God judges "the secret things of mankind". I think it will be far different from the Watchtower&#39;s message of gloom and doom and permanent annihilation for anyone not under their corporate umbrella, which, by the way, will not even exist when this judging takes place.

To steal the words of our beloved Sister Stayawake, I speak only for myself. I will not be blinded any longer or teach others blindness as handed down by the elitist evil slave class at Brooklyn Bethel. They seem to forget very easily that Jehovah has the hairs of everyone&#39;s heads numbered and even the fall of a lowly sparrow brings him sadness and regret.

Agape
Jesh[/b]Amen, and thank you, I have longed believed this. :ban_dance01:


<span style="color:#2e8b57">In summary, it seems clear to me that we simply do not yet know of the wonderful plan of Jehovah&#39;s salvation, and we are merely speculating until God judges "the secret things of mankind". I think it will be far different from the Watchtower&#39;s message of gloom and doom and permanent annihilation for anyone not under their corporate umbrella, which, by the way, will not even exist when this judging takes place.

[Nambo]

A thought that has come to me reading through this fine thread is :- is there a possibility of 3 classes?

The 144,000 being literal Jews and fullfilling Jehovahs promise to the Jews as a fleshly nation.
A great crowd of un-numbered Gentiles that occupy the same position in Heaven as the 144000 Jews hence the wearing of White robes and standing before the lamb, (would also help explain the number of annointed discussed on another thread).
The fact that they come out of the Tribulation which will be a testing time for Christians as oppossed to the destruction of the un-Godly at Armaggedon.

This might also explain how Jesus Sheep, (jews) and Other Sheep that are not of this flock, (Gentiles), become one flock.

All the above ruling as Kings over the New Earth that is comprised of those who did not worship the beast, those who where sighing and groaning etc, and the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous, all on Earth.

The above Earthly group might also be more inclined to join Satan at the end of the 1000 years than those who had washed thier robes in the Blood of the Lamb and who had palm branches in thier hand, allways seemed a bit odd to me that a huge proportion of faithfull and true Christians would turn on God at the end of the 1000 years.