Is Not Sinning Enough?

[MickHewitt]

Amar hasta a los enemigos es lo que nos pide Jesús. Quizás haya que poner el ojo en la forma en la que nos ven desde allí arriba. Somos la creación de ellos dos, Jehová y Jesús. El amor que nos tienen de vernos crecer individualmente desde bebes en un escenario no apto para menores. Un pequeño cambio en la gestión de un niño cambia mucho el resultado de este, tal vez buscar ese cambio en el adulto produce buenos resultados y para eso hay que querer tener buenos resultados del prójimo. Algo así como piensa bien y acertarás. Cuando veo a otra persona y le miró a los ojos suelo reflexionar en el niño que fue, en lo que tuvo que ser crecer sin Jehová para el, en ese mandato de predicar el reino y me nace amarlo. No me fijo en sus actos, en el resultado de sus acciones, sino en desviar la atención de todo eso y poder manifestar mi amor en si mismo. Amo al ser humano, me fascina pero en su profundidad, no en la superficie. Me interesa conocer y pararme frente a mi semejante y no me cansa. Terminar diciéndole, vamos, deja todo eso de lo que hablas tan poco importante y vamos a servir a Jehová, eso sí que es grandioso! Creo que el amor parte de la base del amor a Jehová y su necesidad de expresión. Y cuando esa expresión es contemplada por otros produce atención. Indistintamente de la atención, ya sea positiva o negativa, la expresion del amor debe ser contemplada por los demás, nuestro amor a Dios debe ser expresado y así es como lo compartimos. Así estamos amando al prójimo. Porque amar a Jehová es amar su propósito y con el, con ese propósito, su amor se manifiesta en toda su creación.

Amén a esa Hermana Ana

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Amar hasta a los enemigos es lo que nos pide Jesús. Quizás haya que poner el ojo en la forma en la que nos ven desde allí arriba. Somos la creación de ellos dos, Jehová y Jesús. El amor que nos tienen de vernos crecer individualmente desde bebes en un escenario no apto para menores. Un pequeño cambio en la gestión de un niño cambia mucho el resultado de este, tal vez buscar ese cambio en el adulto produce buenos resultados y para eso hay que querer tener buenos resultados del prójimo. Algo así como piensa bien y acertarás. Cuando veo a otra persona y le miró a los ojos suelo reflexionar en el niño que fue, en lo que tuvo que ser crecer sin Jehová para el, en ese mandato de predicar el reino y me nace amarlo. No me fijo en sus actos, en el resultado de sus acciones, sino en desviar la atención de todo eso y poder manifestar mi amor en si mismo. Amo al ser humano, me fascina pero en su profundidad, no en la superficie. Me interesa conocer y pararme frente a mi semejante y no me cansa. Terminar diciéndole, vamos, deja todo eso de lo que hablas tan poco importante y vamos a servir a Jehová, eso sí que es grandioso! Creo que el amor parte de la base del amor a Jehová y su necesidad de expresión. Y cuando esa expresión es contemplada por otros produce atención. Indistintamente de la atención, ya sea positiva o negativa, la expresion del amor debe ser contemplada por los demás, nuestro amor a Dios debe ser expresado y así es como lo compartimos. Así estamos amando al prójimo. Porque amar a Jehová es amar su propósito y con el, con ese propósito, su amor se manifiesta en toda su creación.

¡Así que dices que la medida de nuestro amor está en el valor de su recepción por otro! ¡Eso es un pensamiento profundo!

 

[Serenity]

Yes, this is true, in terms of describing the outcomes of love. What I was simply trying to understand by asking the question was the “application” of love as the primary Connector to all the attributes of the spirit, rather than its outcomes. As you point out, it is difficult for us to conceive of the depths involved in this. Yes, we need to love all people, but as you rightly point out, that is somewhat beyond us to implicate in our lives. If as you suggest, we require holy spirit to attain that level of understanding, it suggests that there is something to learn. But the command is NOW to love our enemies, not that we require perfection or the spirit to do so, but that we do so of our own understanding. So what I’m simply seeking, is understanding on that facet of application that links ALL the attributes of the spirit to that of love, without which, we “have nothing”. In interests me to know. As you point out, we need insight to do that. I am simply seeking a common understanding of how we may increase that insight, just as we seek to increase our faith. We all know the outcomes.

Clearly if we apply faith in the same regard, we know that its principles are many-fold, and we work at these things daily - we “prepare”. I am simply trying to apply the same issues to “love”.

Love is from God. It is a fruitage of his holy spirit. And like the other fruitages of the spirit we need God's spirit in order to show godly love, for which as Christians, we pray daily. We can specifically pray that we improve in this quality and display it more fully each day by looking for ways to do so each day, by speaking in a kind and loving way to and about others, by being patient and forgiving towards others, by working on our inner attitudes and feelings and cultivating compassion towards others.

People of the world have and show a certain amout of love, being made in God's image, most love their families and friends generally to a degree. It is by only by God's holy spirit and also by God's word that the Christian makes over his mind and heart to conform to the image of the Christ in order to show godly love as Christ did. This is an ongoing, daily process for the Christian and doesn't happen overnight or instantly. We are to make our minds over. We are to be sanctifed by God's word. We 'wash our robes to make them white in the blood of the lamb'.This is a growth process as we make progress and "widen out" in showing love to others. This is not something that we just instantly make happen on our own or just through our own will. It's a process of development with time, work and effort along with God's word and spirit.

Beyond this, what can be said but to read the Bible and pray to God about it. God is the One who supplies knowledge, wisdom insight and deeper understanding far more than any human can.

 

[Ana]

¡Así que dices que la medida de nuestro amor está en el valor de su recepción por otro! ¡Eso es un pensamiento profundo!

Mateo 5:44 Sin embargo, yo les digo: Continúen amando a sus enemigos y orando por los que los persiguen; 45 para que demuestren ser hijos de su Padre que está en los cielos, ya que él hace salir su sol sobre inicuos y buenos y hace llover sobre justos e injustos. 46 Porque si aman a los que los aman, ¿qué galardón tienen? ¿No hacen también la misma cosa los recaudadores de impuestos? 47 Y si saludan a sus hermanos solamente, ¿qué cosa extraordinaria hacen? ¿No hace la misma cosa también la gente de las naciones? 48 Ustedes, en efecto, tienen que ser perfectos, como su Padre celestial es perfecto.
El concepto que intento explicar es la parte que dice que Jehová hace salir su sol sobre inicuos y buenos y hace llover sobre justos e injustos. El derrocha su amor indistintamente porque su expresión es amor incondicional. El quiere que le queramos como El nos quiere, que veamos a otros como el nos ve, sin ver la acción de vuelta, amar porque tenemos esa cualidad dentro de nosotros dada por el. La manifestación de ello.
En este mundo me he encontrado a muchos hombres que no quieren ser amados por miedo a sufrir. Sienten un rechazo al amor sincero y lo expresan en toda su forma, pero lo saben identificar, a veces con indiferencia, otras con furia, muchas con lujuria. Imagina este mundo sin la luz que Jehová nos ofrece con su conocimiento. Hay que amar por encima de todo, bendecir a los que nos lastiman para que encuentren consuelo y dejen de lastimar a otros y así mismos. No hay nada más triste que tener una capacidad grandiosa como la de dar amor y no darle la utilidad que merece. Estamos para servir a un Dios poderoso, que privilegio si servimos y sabemos manifestar los dones de su creación. Y nos creo con todo el amor y nos dio a lo que más amaba, su hijo. Amor, amor y mucho más que amor.

 

[Serenity]

Mateo 5:44 Sin embargo, yo les digo: Continúen amando a sus enemigos y orando por los que los persiguen; 45 para que demuestren ser hijos de su Padre que está en los cielos, ya que él hace salir su sol sobre inicuos y buenos y hace llover sobre justos e injustos. 46 Porque si aman a los que los aman, ¿qué galardón tienen? ¿No hacen también la misma cosa los recaudadores de impuestos? 47 Y si saludan a sus hermanos solamente, ¿qué cosa extraordinaria hacen? ¿No hace la misma cosa también la gente de las naciones? 48 Ustedes, en efecto, tienen que ser perfectos, como su Padre celestial es perfecto.
El concepto que intento explicar es la parte que dice que Jehová hace salir su sol sobre inicuos y buenos y hace llover sobre justos e injustos. El derrocha su amor indistintamente porque su expresión es amor incondicional. El quiere que le queramos como El nos quiere, que veamos a otros como el nos ve, sin ver la acción de vuelta, amar porque tenemos esa cualidad dentro de nosotros dada por el. La manifestación de ello.
En este mundo me he encontrado a muchos hombres que no quieren ser amados por miedo a sufrir. Sienten un rechazo al amor sincero y lo expresan en toda su forma, pero lo saben identificar, a veces con indiferencia, otras con furia, muchas con lujuria. Imagina este mundo sin la luz que Jehová nos ofrece con su conocimiento. Hay que amar por encima de todo, bendecir a los que nos lastiman para que encuentren consuelo y dejen de lastimar a otros y así mismos. No hay nada más triste que tener una capacidad grandiosa como la de dar amor y no darle la utilidad que merece. Estamos para servir a un Dios poderoso, que privilegio si servimos y sabemos manifestar los dones de su creación. Y nos creo con todo el amor y nos dio a lo que más amaba, su hijo. Amor, amor y mucho más que amor.

Google translation of Ana's message to Barnaby:
Matthew 5:44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; 45 so that they may prove to be children of their Father who is in heaven, since he makes his sun rise on the wicked and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't tax collectors also do the same thing? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what extraordinary thing do you do? Don't the people of the nations also do the same thing? 48 In fact, you must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
The concept I am trying to explain is the part that says that Jehovah makes his sun rise on the wicked and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. He wastes his love indiscriminately because his expression is unconditional love. He wants us to love Him as He loves us, to see others as He sees us, without seeing the action in return, to love because we have that quality within us given by Him. The manifestation of it.

In this world I have met many men who do not want to be loved for fear of suffering. They feel a rejection of sincere love and express it in all its forms, but they know how to identify it, sometimes with indifference, other times with fury, many with lust. Imagine this world without the light that Jehovah offers us with his knowledge. We must love above all, bless those who hurt us so that they find comfort and stop hurting others and themselves. There is nothing sadder than having a great capacity like that of giving love and not giving it the use it deserves. We are to serve a powerful God, what a privilege if we serve and know how to manifest the gifts of his creation. And he created us with all his love and gave us what he loved most, his son. Love, love and much more than love ❤

 

[Ana]

Google translation of Ana's message to Barnaby:
Matthew 5:44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; 45 so that they may prove to be children of their Father who is in heaven, since he makes his sun rise on the wicked and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't tax collectors also do the same thing? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what extraordinary thing do you do? Don't the people of the nations also do the same thing? 48 In fact, you must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
The concept I am trying to explain is the part that says that Jehovah makes his sun rise on the wicked and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. He wastes his love indiscriminately because his expression is unconditional love. He wants us to love Him as He loves us, to see others as He sees us, without seeing the action in return, to love because we have that quality within us given by Him. The manifestation of it.

In this world I have met many men who do not want to be loved for fear of suffering. They feel a rejection of sincere love and express it in all its forms, but they know how to identify it, sometimes with indifference, other times with fury, many with lust. Imagine this world without the light that Jehovah offers us with his knowledge. We must love above all, bless those who hurt us so that they find comfort and stop hurting others and themselves. There is nothing sadder than having a great capacity like that of giving love and not giving it the use it deserves. We are to serve a powerful God, what a privilege if we serve and know how to manifest the gifts of his creation. And he created us with all his love and gave us what he loved most, his son. Love, love and much more than love ❤

Gracias

 

[Serenity]

Gracias

Denada. ❤

 

[Serenity]

I know years ago I read the commentary on James and it pointed out a lot of how we should treat one another regardless of our status and not show favoritism. The true essence of cultivating the Christian personality was brought out very well.

It also brought out that being a friend of the world makes you an enemy of God. No doubt speaking of the governments of this world.

I can see why they probably ditched it. Even back then when I read it we were having problems in our congregation that James spoke out against. That’s why I was prompted to read it.

So many things were starting to change around that time…such as how different ones were treated, showing favoritism. In fact when I read the book it was in the 90’s but most of the content stuck with me.

It also talked about how orphans and widows should be treated. James help us to develop a Christian personality for sure not to mention enduring trials. All so very positive.

One more point I might add is that James was Jesus’s brother.

I agree. The Commentary On The Letter Of James Is An excellent book. I don't know why on earth they got rid of it. It was just a verse by verse commentary on the book of James. How could that possibly be a bad thing?

 

[Serenity]

Jesus love was certainly shown by giving his life in order to redeem mankind from the condemnation of sin and death. This love was agape love, or loved based on principle, the highest form of love. This type of love is self sacrificing love and is the greatest type and expression of love. As Jesus said, "No one has love greater love than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." This he said right after saying, "This is my commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you." John 15: 13, 12. In order for Christians to love one another as Jesus loved them, they must be willing even to die for one another. This commandment was new, in that the Law, under which Jesus and his disciples were at that time stated, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." This new commandment that Jesus gave, however, goes above and beyond the commandment that the Israelites were commanded to do under the law of Moses. (Le 19:18; Mt 22:39) The love commanded by that Law called for love of others as of oneself but not for a self-sacrificing love that went even to the point of giving one’s own life in behalf of another, as does the Law of the Christ.

 

[I Like Pizza]

Yes, this is true, in terms of describing the outcomes of love. What I was simply trying to understand by asking the question was the “application” of love as the primary Connector to all the attributes of the spirit, rather than its outcomes. As you point out, it is difficult for us to conceive of the depths involved in this. Yes, we need to love all people, but as you rightly point out, that is somewhat beyond us to implicate in our lives. If as you suggest, we require holy spirit to attain that level of understanding, it suggests that there is something to learn. But the command is NOW to love our enemies, not that we require perfection or the spirit to do so, but that we do so of our own understanding. So what I’m simply seeking, is understanding on that facet of application that links ALL the attributes of the spirit to that of love, without which, we “have nothing”. In interests me to know. As you point out, we need insight to do that. I am simply seeking a common understanding of how we may increase that insight, just as we seek to increase our faith. We all know the outcomes.

Clearly if we apply faith in the same regard, we know that its principles are many-fold, and we work at these things daily - we “prepare”. I am simply trying to apply the same issues to “love”.

Jehovah is the source of love, he would not tell us to do something that we could not do. Therefore, to love our enemies as Jesus told his followers, must be possible. Love though has many levels, and perhaps if we look to the least amount of love, he simply meant that we should treat our enemies to the very least as our brother, not wanting to harm them. That doesn't mean we need to like them, but that we acknowledge their sinful state is no better or worse than ours, and in that we show love to them, for vengeance belongs to Jehovah.

I think it comes down to choice does it not? Love is always there to choose; it depends on us whether we will choose to use it. Just as Cain had the ability to choose love over hate prior to murdering Abel. Free will didn't break when Adam & Eve sinned, mankinds ability to use it perfectly did. Free will is still perfect regardless of mankind's sin. Therefore, choosing love is the first step in understanding how we increase that insight. Every time we choose love over hate or badness, we increase our faith, hope, joy, kindness, meekness, etc....

 

[kirmmy]

Jehovah is the source of love, he would not tell us to do something that we could not do. Therefore, to love our enemies as Jesus told his followers, must be possible. Love though has many levels, and perhaps if we look to the least amount of love, he simply meant that we should treat our enemies to the very least as our brother, not wanting to harm them. That doesn't mean we need to like them, but that we acknowledge their sinful state is no better or worse than ours, and in that we show love to them, for vengeance belongs to Jehovah.

I think it comes down to choice does it not? Love is always there to choose; it depends on us whether we will choose to use it. Just as Cain had the ability to choose love over hate prior to murdering Abel. Free will didn't break when Adam & Eve sinned, mankinds ability to use it perfectly did. Free will is still perfect regardless of mankind's sin. Therefore, choosing love is the first step in understanding how we increase that insight. Every time we choose love over hate or badness, we increase our faith, hope, joy, kindness, meekness, etc....

The English term we use for "love" is very limited.

In Greek there were 4 kinds of love:

Agape: Principled love - This is the love Jesus had for mankind and he expects us to have for others that we don't even know. It arises from empathy and fellow feeling for all our brothers/sisters in the world. We're all brothers and sisters coming from a common ancestor.
Philia: Affectionate love - Love you would have for a good friend. Think of the bond between David and Jonathan.
Storge: Relative love - Love you have for your family and relatives. Imagine the great love a mother has for her son/daughter.
Eros: Sexual love - The love or desire a man would have for a woman and vice versa. To the one, the other is the one and only and he/she must have him/her. Yes, this is more than pure mating instinct (That's animalistic). It's when a woman loves one, and only one man, and must have him as a mate. Goes the same for men.

Of course these can be mixed and matched, I imagine and there is a certain amount of overlap. If you're married then hopefully you have Eros and Philia for your husband/wife. You're lovers AND friends, one would hope.

Anyway, the most important is Agape and that is what we are expected to show to the people of the world. That is how we love our enemies. Not by going out for a drunken night of debauchery with them but by warning them that that drunken night of debauchery may cause them harm. By telling them when you notice their house is on fire and they fell asleep without realizing it. By telling them that Jehovah has a plan and he will carry it through but he has certain standards we all must follow.

 

[I Like Pizza]

The English term we use for "love" is very limited.

In Greek there were 4 kinds of love:

Agape: Principled love - This is the love Jesus had for mankind and he expects us to have for others that we don't even know. It arises from empathy and fellow feeling for all our brothers/sisters in the world. We're all brothers and sisters coming from a common ancestor.
Philia: Affectionate love - Love you would have for a good friend. Think of the bond between David and Jonathan.
Storge: Relative love - Love you have for your family and relatives. Imagine the great love a mother has for her son/daughter.
Eros: Sexual love - The love or desire a man would have for a woman and vice versa. To the one, the other is the one and only and he/she must have him/her. Yes, this is more than pure mating instinct (That's animalistic). It's when a woman loves one, and only one man, and must have him as a mate. Goes the same for men.

Of course these can be mixed and matched, I imagine and there is a certain amount of overlap. If you're married then hopefully you have Eros and Philia for your husband/wife. You're lovers AND friends, one would hope.

Anyway, the most important is Agape and that is what we are expected to show to the people of the world. That is how we love our enemies. Not by going out for a drunken night of debauchery with them but by warning them that that drunken night of debauchery may cause them harm. By telling them when you notice their house is on fire and they fell asleep without realizing it. By telling them that Jehovah has a plan and he will carry it through but he has certain standards we all must follow.

Thanks for the breakdown. I suppose the best example would be Jesus Christ as he was being crucified and told his father to "forgive their sins for they know not what they are doing". Most people simply don't know Jehovah or Jesus Christ so that in itself is reason to show love to them, for they just don't know. As you said, empathy.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

The English term we use for "love" is very limited.

In Greek there were 4 kinds of love:

Agape: Principled love - This is the love Jesus had for mankind and he expects us to have for others that we don't even know. It arises from empathy and fellow feeling for all our brothers/sisters in the world. We're all brothers and sisters coming from a common ancestor.
Philia: Affectionate love - Love you would have for a good friend. Think of the bond between David and Jonathan.
Storge: Relative love - Love you have for your family and relatives. Imagine the great love a mother has for her son/daughter.
Eros: Sexual love - The love or desire a man would have for a woman and vice versa. To the one, the other is the one and only and he/she must have him/her. Yes, this is more than pure mating instinct (That's animalistic). It's when a woman loves one, and only one man, and must have him as a mate. Goes the same for men.

Of course these can be mixed and matched, I imagine and there is a certain amount of overlap. If you're married then hopefully you have Eros and Philia for your husband/wife. You're lovers AND friends, one would hope.

Anyway, the most important is Agape and that is what we are expected to show to the people of the world. That is how we love our enemies. Not by going out for a drunken night of debauchery with them but by warning them that that drunken night of debauchery may cause them harm. By telling them when you notice their house is on fire and they fell asleep without realizing it. By telling them that Jehovah has a plan and he will carry it through but he has certain standards we all must follow.

Love also has degrees though, does it not, as well as kinds, and within those degrees and kinds, there is depth and if there is depth, or intensity in its translation, then it must also have a shallow end as well - not based upon its efficacy in fulfilment. If we stand amazed at Jehovah’s expressions of love and compare it with our own, then we begin to see into our own level of translation of love in the extent of our own learning. The fact that we are given insight into four elements of love should alert us to the depth and strings attached to these elements because there are similarities between them - it begs the question of how many others there may be and whether our eyes are open to them.

There appears to be elements of growth within these bands. Those who are faithful to their partners are rarely married to the same person after fifty or more years - not because of a breakdown in the relationship, but because of its survival into a unity of both souls into one, so to speak. This then is a positive development and if we extend it to all aspects of our awareness, in that they become exposed to even greater potentials in the interpretation of love. The fact that it requires effort from ourselves and requires sacrifice of self, the rewards is in fact a deeper insight into self, made possible through another concept of being - our partner - and ultimately when seen, to the creator of it all.

We see this depth (or at least, we did more readily in centuries past) in creation; imagine those who first saw the Grand Canyon or the expanse of Yellowstone - seeing and understanding but little of its magnificence and then seeing it in its glory from space. It has a profound effect upon the soul and a deep insight into the hand that created something that cannot be seen even in its entirety, until searched for from another viewpoint? One can go the other way - rather looking from space, look instead through a microscope and see another world entirely. Is this not reflected in the aspect of love in that it can only be appreciated and felt in its true extent, if searched for and becomes informed in its meaning, rather than a mere expression of intent or self satisfaction in an object of desire?

 

[kirmmy]

Love also has degrees though, does it not, as well as kinds, and within those degrees and kinds, there is depth and if there is depth, or intensity in its translation, then it must also have a shallow end as well - not based upon its efficacy in fulfilment. If we stand amazed at Jehovah’s expressions of love and compare it with our own, then we begin to see into our own level of translation of love in the extent of our own learning. The fact that we are given insight into four elements of love should alert us to the depth and strings attached to these elements because there are similarities between them - it begs the question of how many others there may be and whether our eyes are open to them.

I was just saying that the Greeks had 4 words that spanned our English word love. I'll bet mankind's original language, Hebrew, was even more descriptive and precise.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I was just saying that the Greeks had 4 words that spanned our English word love. I'll bet mankind's original language, Hebrew, was even more descriptive and precise.

Yes, very true. I did not intend to offer criticism on what you said. Certainly the term love in these days is more a title than an explanation. It has no depth to it does it? That was simply the point I was trying to illustrate in the thread because today the word “love” is applied to everything without the slightest definition of value. For me, I’m simply searching for a deeper application, that’s why I asked the question, because it must have a deeper, far wider meaning in our lives - today, the term is somewhat superficial and certainly unappreciated in its expanse. So yes, thanks for your insight.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Love is from God. It is a fruitage of his holy spirit. And like the other fruitages of the spirit we need God's spirit in order to show godly love, for which as Christians, we pray daily. We can specifically pray that we improve in this quality and display it more fully each day by looking for ways to do so each day, by speaking in a kind and loving way to and about others, by being patient and forgiving towards others, by working on our inner attitudes and feelings and cultivating compassion towards others.

People of the world have and show a certain amout of love, being made in God's image, most love their families and friends generally to a degree. It is by only by God's holy spirit and also by God's word that the Christian makes over his mind and heart to conform to the image of the Christ in ordef to show godly love as Christ did. This is an ongoing, daily process for the Christian and doesn't happen overnight or instantly. We are to make our minds over. We are to be sanctifed by God's word. We 'wash our robes to make them white in the blood of the lamb'.This is a growth process as we make progress and "widen out" in showing love to others. This is not something that we just instantly make happen on our own or just through our own will. It's a process of development with time, work and effort along with God's word and spirit.

Beyond this, what can be said but to read the Bible and pray to God about it. God is the One who supplies knowledge, wisdom insight and deeper understanding far more than any human can.

Yes, I think you’re correct. I’ve been digesting your comment for some days. I’m looking for more expansive definition but I think that may not be possible to find in that as it seems to be pro-rata with the spirit laid upon one rather than something that can be gained through understanding with the tools one possesses, - perhaps such materialises more through realisation as one progresses in other areas of improvement which in turn may lead to more application of the concept or spiritual meaning. Thanks. I shall continue to dwell on the matter.

 

[Serenity]

Yes, I think you’re correct. I’ve been digesting your comment for some days. I’m looking for more expansive definition but I think that may not be possible to find in that as it seems to be pro-rata with the spirit laid upon one rather than something that can be gained through understanding with the tools one possesses, - perhaps such materialises more through realisation as one progresses in other areas of improvement which in turn may lead to more application of the concept or spiritual meaning. Thanks. I shall continue to dwell on the matter.

After that post I thought to add that the fact that the fruitages of the spirit are described as being such, that is, as fruits, indicates that, like fruits, they are produced over time as a result of cultivation, care, feeding and watering and by rain from heaven, and sunshine from God. Love is mentioned first among them. Through love we are helped to develop the other fruitages, and love is essential to all the others.

 

[Serenity]

Yes, I think you’re correct. I’ve been digesting your comment for some days. I’m looking for more expansive definition but I think that may not be possible to find in that as it seems to be pro-rata with the spirit laid upon one rather than something that can be gained through understanding with the tools one possesses, - perhaps such materialises more through realisation as one progresses in other areas of improvement which in turn may lead to more application of the concept or spiritual meaning. Thanks. I shall continue to dwell on the matter.

After that post I thought to add that the fact that the fruitages of the spirit are described as being such, that is as fruits, indicates that like fruits, they are produced over time as a result of cultivation, care, feeding and watering and by rain from heaven, and sunshine from God. Love is mentioned first among them. Through love we are helped to develop the other fruitages, and love is essential to all the others.

See also Romans 12:2: "be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
And, Ephesians 4:22-24: "put away the old personality...be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality, which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty."

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

See also Romans 12:2: "be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
And, Ephesians 4:22-24: "put away the old personality...be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality, which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty."

I feel that these elements grow exponentially with progress. They make requirements of us do they not? You note that love is ‘from’ Jehovah and I would agree that we are given the sense of the attribute. It is seen in other life forms from birds to elephants, though in what degree is debatable - there are similarities. Putting on a new personality requires emulation that can only come from our own interpretation and practices. “Being transformed” and “putting away the old personality” requires evaluation on our part, trial and practice. It is not a given - the gift is in its substance, a seed, desire, a potential that is not described unless it is attained. Thus “transforming” and “change” requires insight and evaluation on our part, hence its growth exponentially with the degree of understanding that we can both acquire and adhere to.

One point in question is that “love” of itself, has no direction but is an acquired taste of the asset. It can be selfish, wrongly placed, infatuated (if that is love at all) greedy, heartless and abused - it being lead by the heart. It can be pure too - so insight is required. There is no assumption that it is good. We refine it ourselves as the scriptures you quoted state quite plainly. Thus there must be trial and error, pursuit and refinement - a learning process. As you note with Agape love, it is based on principle.Thus principle must inform its quality in acquisition. If that is the case, then it requires teaching because the principles will run concurrent to all understanding in life of love, ergo, we cannot just claim our “love” is valid simply because we have a form of it. I feel at present that such insight can only be yielded pro-rata with growth in spirituality. It cannot be assumed to be valid unless known to be. Tested? Certainly.

 

[Serenity]

I feel that these elements grow exponentially with progress. They make requirements of us do they not? You note that love is ‘from’ Jehovah and I would agree that we are given the sense of the attribute. It is seen in other life forms from birds to elephants, though in what degree is debatable - there are similarities. Putting on a new personality requires emulation that can only come from our own interpretation and practices. “Being transformed” and “putting away the old personality” requires evaluation on our part, trial and practice. It is not a given - the gift is in its substance, a seed, desire, a potential that is not described unless it is attained. Thus “transforming” and “change” requires insight and evaluation on our part, hence its growth exponentially with the degree of understanding that we can both acquire and adhere to.

One point in question is that “love” of itself, has no direction but is an acquired taste of the asset. It can be selfish, wrongly placed, infatuated (if that is love at all) greedy, heartless and abused - it being lead by the heart. It can be pure too - so insight is required. There is no assumption that it is good. We refine it ourselves as the scriptures you quoted state quite plainly. Thus there must be trial and error, pursuit and refinement - a learning process. As you note with Agape love, it is based on principle.Thus principle must inform its quality in acquisition. If that is the case, then it requires teaching because the principles will run concurrent to all understanding in life of love, ergo, we cannot just claim our “love” is valid simply because we have a form of it. I feel at present that such insight can only be yielded pro-rata with growth in spirituality. It cannot be assumed to be valid unless known to be. Tested? Certainly.

Accurate knowledge is essential...
"And this is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; that YOU may make sure of the more important things, so that YOU may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ, and may be filled with righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to God’s glory and praise." Philippians 1:9, 10

Teaching is essential...
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

"He is the one teaching us more than the beasts of the earth,
And he makes us wiser than even the flying creatures of the heavens."
Job 35:11

"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk.""
Isaiah 48:17

The example of the Great Teacher teaches us, and is the perfect pattern for us.....
"For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died; and he died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised up." 2 Corinthians 5:15, 16

"Just as the Father taught me I speak these things." John 8::28

Being tested is essential....
"Consider it all joy, my brothers, when YOU meet with various trials, knowing as YOU do that this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete+ and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." James 1: 2-4

"In this fact YOU are greatly rejoicing, though for a little while at present, if it must be, YOU have been grieved by various trials, in order that the tested quality of YOUR faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1: 6, 7

John spoke about love more than any other apostle...
"Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God. He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.

Beloved ones, if this is how God loved us, then we are ourselves under obligation to love one another. At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us. By this we gain the knowledge that we are remaining in union with him and he in union with us, because he has imparted his spirit to us. In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world. Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. And we ourselves have come to know and have believed the love that God has in our case.

God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him.This is how love has been made perfect with us, that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment, because, just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. As for us, we love, because he first loved us.

If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also." 1 John 4: 7-20