Possible way Jehovah will remove the Watchtower organisation

Nomex said:
I had a brother explain it to me like this a long time ago and I always thought it made sense. Take the flood, Jehovah only intervened because of what Satan and his demons were doing. So, Jehovah let's things play out, but responds with his power when Satan uses his power to try to shape events. The GT will be man's ultimate failure of all time, but it will also Satan's because he is the one who will be behind it. And that failure is when Jehovah intervenes by allowing Jesus' second coming. The period after this, the 42 months, prior to, and leading up to Armageddon, will give mankind one last opportunity to chose Jehovah or Satan.
Click to expand...
Gotcha! I can't believe how much about the Bible I've learned since finding you lot. Thankyou! For the past few years in Jah's org I've felt like I've been chewing over the same, processed, ready meals week after week and not getting any goodness into my body! It's great being able to learn new stuff now 👍❤️🤗
 
Nomex said:
This very simple yet profound statement, is something I came to understand a long time ago, and this very simple understanding, would free so many of the rank and file from their bondage to the liars at WT! Their belief that "Jehovah put's it in their hearts" they cannot even begin to understand, yet we are free moral agents. So statements like this in the Bible cannot mean what many think it means. When the Bible says "Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh", for example... if we have free will, it cannot mean what that statement says on face value. So in what way did Jehovah "harden the heart of Pharaoh"? Because Pharaoh having been created by Jehovah with free will, was able to "harden his heart" because Jehovah created each of us with free will!!!! Now think about these statements with the understanding that Jehovah created us, not as automatons, but with free will.

So when Jehovah says, regarding Babylon the Great, He put's it in their hearts (that is to say the governments) to carry out his will, yes their will, what he's really saying is, first of all, he foresaw what mankind was going to do, and he is going to let them, because it will prove we/mankind need Jehovah, yet they do it because it's what they want to do, and he's not going to stop them from exercising their free will, and Jehovah is saying, "oh and BTW, it's what I want because you are going to prove my point for me!!!" So he "put's it in their hearts" because we are created with free will! He's noyt litreally maneuvering them to do this, because if he did it would be the OPPOSITE of free will, if he did that! And that is the real crutch of WT's stupid teaching about the GT...it's kind of the beginning of that stupid understanding, never mind the fact that their idea about what the GT is has no relation to reality either!
Click to expand...
Thanks! I've never been able to get round the Pharaoh thing, now I understand it a bit more clearly. What about the fact that the org says that only THEY are dispensing the food at the proper time? On the surface, it looks like they really are, because it looks like no-one else is? Ok, I'm finding different "food" here in this forum but it's well "hidden" How do we explain that scripture?
 
Watchman said:
But isn't Jehovah supposed to protect us from all evil, like the prophecy they quote, "no weapon formed against you will have any success"?
Click to expand...
So Robert, when exactly does this scripture come into play? Is it when we're all literally alone but relying totally on Jehovah to rescue us at the last minute? The way the org has always taught me and the conclusion I came to from their teaching is that the org itself will be protected by Jehovah, nothing anyone can do to it will be successful..
 
Nomex said:
This very simple yet profound statement, is something I came to understand a long time ago, and this very simple understanding, would free so many of the rank and file from their bondage to the liars at WT! Their belief that "Jehovah put's it in their hearts" they cannot even begin to understand, yet we are free moral agents. So statements like this in the Bible cannot mean what many think it means. When the Bible says "Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh", for example... if we have free will, it cannot mean what that statement says on face value. So in what way did Jehovah "harden the heart of Pharaoh"? Because Pharaoh having been created by Jehovah with free will, was able to "harden his heart" because Jehovah created each of us with free will!!!! Now think about these statements with the understanding that Jehovah created us, not as automatons, but with free will.

So when Jehovah says, regarding Babylon the Great, He put's it in their hearts (that is to say the governments) to carry out his will, yes their will, what he's really saying is, first of all, he foresaw what mankind was going to do, and he is going to let them, because it will prove we/mankind need Jehovah, yet they do it because it's what they want to do, and he's not going to stop them from exercising their free will, and Jehovah is saying, "oh and BTW, it's what I want because you are going to prove my point for me!!!" So he "put's it in their hearts" because we are created with free will! He's noyt litreally maneuvering them to do this, because if he did it would be the OPPOSITE of free will, if he did that! And that is the real crutch of WT's stupid teaching about the GT...it's kind of the beginning of that stupid understanding, never mind the fact that their idea about what the GT is has no relation to reality either!
Click to expand...
Well thought out comment Nomex.
On the flip side of this matter I tend to think that there most likely was divine intervention in times past to forestall man’s appointment with WW3.
What caused an arrogant proud Russia to suddenly recall its ships, containing nukes bound for Cuba, back to Russia during the Cuban missile crises?
Talk to anyone alive then in October 1962 and they’ll tell you that the standoff between America and Russia was going nuclear at any moment.
Kennedy was ready and willing to start WW3. Wasn’t Jehovahs time.
Since then there have been multitudes of accidental near nuclear missile launches due to breakdowns in the sequence of safety backups.
One instance in 1983 where Soviet satellites operating correctly mistook sunlight reflecting off clouds as an American missile attack and a nuclear response was initiated.
The final safety measure in the launch sequence was the judgement of a lone Soviet missile command officer who intervened and prevented a full on retaliatory strike.
Had a different officer been on duty that day the outcome may have been different.
Angelic intervention? I like to think so.

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/04/Close Calls with Nuclear Weapons.pdf
 
Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
But then it won't be seen as something Jehovah has brought upon them, it'll just seem like it's all part of Satan's system collapsing?
Click to expand...
I am of much the same opinion. The Israelites being taken into captivity; the destruction of Israel by the romans - they were both spectacular in their downfall. The whole issue of Armageddon is to vindicate the Name, punish and set things straight. The focus is upon those who wish to submit to the kingdom. The example is a combination of the kingdom in opposition to the beast, and the exposure of the lie for those seeking Jehovah. I don’t see (yet) any reason why the whole prophesy should be robbed of meaning by the collapse of the banking system. The awakening of the flock is a major part of the prophesy - surely their deceit by the watchtower must be of significance? Is the truth to play second fiddle to materialism?

Surely the watchtower’s embezzlement of faith, money, trust and leadership has to be exposed in its relationship and context with Jehovah? How can the prophesy be given its due explanation if watchtowers downfall can be attributed to simple mismanagement? Its crimes are not out of the ordinary when compared with normal business dealings in this world. Discrimination, sexual abuses, outrageous living standards on other peoples money, luxury living on the backs of contributors - look at the Catholic Church, oozing wealth while so many of its members go hungry and live hand to mouth. It’s normalised! “Jehovah’s witnesses left rudderless and out of pocket “ is a one day newspaper headline. I can’t see it myself. I would expect a exposure that is significant in biblical terms, and the judgement equally ostentatious as with Egypt. Parting a sea and swallowing a whole army and its king - now your talking!
 
Nomex said:
This very simple yet profound statement, is something I came to understand a long time ago, and this very simple understanding, would free so many of the rank and file from their bondage to the liars at WT! Their belief that "Jehovah put's it in their hearts" they cannot even begin to understand, yet we are free moral agents. So statements like this in the Bible cannot mean what many think it means. When the Bible says "Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh", for example... if we have free will, it cannot mean what that statement says on face value. So in what way did Jehovah "harden the heart of Pharaoh"? Because Pharaoh having been created by Jehovah with free will, was able to "harden his heart" because Jehovah created each of us with free will!!!! Now think about these statements with the understanding that Jehovah created us, not as automatons, but with free will.

So when Jehovah says, regarding Babylon the Great, He put's it in their hearts (that is to say the governments) to carry out his will, yes their will, what he's really saying is, first of all, he foresaw what mankind was going to do, and he is going to let them, because it will prove we/mankind need Jehovah, yet they do it because it's what they want to do, and he's not going to stop them from exercising their free will, and Jehovah is saying, "oh and BTW, it's what I want because you are going to prove my point for me!!!" So he "put's it in their hearts" because we are created with free will! He's noyt litreally maneuvering them to do this, because if he did it would be the OPPOSITE of free will, if he did that! And that is the real crutch of WT's stupid teaching about the GT...it's kind of the beginning of that stupid understanding, never mind the fact that their idea about what the GT is has no relation to reality either!
Click to expand...
You encapsulate the principle quite nicely Nomex. It does my head in. I find it difficult to deal with, but it is nonetheless a major problem that besets the witnesses. The bible says that Jehovah “hardened the heart of pharaoh…” but we know Jehovah can do no evil. One could argue just as easily then, that having something written in the bible that says the opposite of what is true is equally deceitful as hardening the heart of a miscreant to prove a point! So, what to do?

However your comment holds water when compared with Jehovah “allowing” Satan to tempt Eve, and allowed Eve her own pathway, and thus the act of “allowing” can be seen as equal to “hardening” (the heart) if that is what the person wishes. What is evil about allowing a person to state their inner proclivities? Nothing! I think that these nuances are probably far more clear if we had insight into the inferences, nuances and unspoken meanings behind verbal, cultural and visual expression of the language at the time. We are not seeing the entire picture. I guess that the thousand years is not actually for putting the world straight, but for us to figure out what the hell just happened! We must discuss it over a beer some day.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
I am of much the same opinion. The Israelites being taken into captivity; the destruction of Israel by the romans - they were both spectacular in their downfall. The whole issue of Armageddon is to vindicate the Name, punish and set things straight. The focus is upon those who wish to submit to the kingdom. The example is a combination of the kingdom in opposition to the beast, and the exposure of the lie for those seeking Jehovah. I don’t see (yet) any reason why the whole prophesy should be robbed of meaning by the collapse of the banking system. The awakening of the flock is a major part of the prophesy - surely their deceit by the watchtower must be of significance? Is the truth to play second fiddle to materialism?

Surely the watchtower’s embezzlement of faith, money, trust and leadership has to be exposed in its relationship and context with Jehovah? How can the prophesy be given its due explanation if watchtowers downfall can be attributed to simple mismanagement? Its crimes are not out of the ordinary when compared with normal business dealings in this world. Discrimination, sexual abuses, outrageous living standards on other peoples money, luxury living on the backs of contributors - look at the Catholic Church, oozing wealth while so many of its members go hungry and live hand to mouth. It’s normalised! “Jehovah’s witnesses left rudderless and out of pocket “ is a one day newspaper headline. I can’t see it myself. I would expect a exposure that is significant in biblical terms, and the judgement equally ostentatious as with Egypt. Parting a sea and swallowing a whole army and its king - now your talking!
Click to expand...
That's what I think too. People need to be able to look at Jah's org and laugh, and say things like "where is your Jehovah now eh?" And they're going to think we are alone, with no God and vulnerable when they attack us, then BOOM! Jehovah and Jesus to the rescue 😀❤️
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
You encapsulate the principle quite nicely Nomex. It does my head in. I find it difficult to deal with, but it is nonetheless a major problem that besets the witnesses. The bible says that Jehovah “hardened the heart of pharaoh…” but we know Jehovah can do no evil. One could argue just as easily then, that having something written in the bible that says the opposite of what is true is equally deceitful as hardening the heart of a miscreant to prove a point! So, what to do?

However your comment holds water when compared with Jehovah “allowing” Satan to tempt Eve, and allowed Eve her own pathway, and thus the act of “allowing” can be seen as equal to “hardening” (the heart) if that is what the person wishes. What is evil about allowing a person to state their inner proclivities? Nothing! I think that these nuances are probably far more clear if we had insight into the inferences, nuances and unspoken meanings behind verbal, cultural and visual expression of the language at the time. We are not seeing the entire picture. I guess that the thousand years is not actually for putting the world straight, but for us to figure out what the hell just happened! We must discuss it over a beer some day.
Click to expand...
Homemade beer of course 😋
 
Sundial said:
In the past the servant in charge of the money in each congregation would get a talley sheet of direct deposits to add into the total collected for the month. Those deposits were anonymous as were donations not made by check. The congregation elders would only know they got a little less that way but not by whom. You are safe at least locally 😀
Click to expand...
This is still the case I can confirm. The tally sheet is now a direct deposit xfr that happens at the bank level and a confirmation doc is sent to the cong by secure email. While speaking on cong finances, wanted to share that been observing that expenses continue to increase. Circuit, cong, HQ specific amount donations per month, etc. It just seems like these expenses are being passed down to congregation publishers with no regards to the tough times we are living in, ie. inflation, etc. Add in far-away assemblies for those in the foreign lang, it gets expensive fast. Our cong funds are quite low and still, we're on the hook for lot's of monthly expenses. We are month-2-month right now and that depends on if sufficient donations are available. I had a bit of a confrontation with a CO becuase he said to send checks via certified mail, but that has a fee of which we want to avoid. I said that wasn't in the direction we rec'd... he argued it was. I confirmed it wasn't, but nonetheless, he didn't even flinch when I mentioned funds were low. It's like, 'pay up... we expect the resolution will be honored', ie. make it happen. Uggh. ☹️🤔
 
mts said:
This is still the case I can confirm. The tally sheet is now a direct deposit xfr that happens at the bank level and a confirmation doc is sent to the cong by secure email
Click to expand...
Well it must be different in my country. A month after I left our COBE said to me "we see you have withdrawn your financial support too" referring to my monthly auto payment to the cong.
This payment was a big chunk of the monthly "tithing" required by WT so I guess it meant some of the other elders would have to stump up
 
Seadog said:
WT guidelines for monthly cong submission to them. When I was there it was there it was $10/publisher. J&P would know
Click to expand...
Really? Is this something they made known to the publishers? Because I have never heard this before. So you are saying the WT BILLS them $10 per publisher for donations?!? I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the sudden "We would like to have a shepherding visit with you" since I stopped our monthly donation just last month???
 
Innocent as Doves said:
Really? Is this something they made known to the publishers? Because I have never heard this before. So you are saying the WT BILLS them $10 per publisher for donations?!?
Click to expand...
I was being facetious in referring to the donation as tithing. It was however a recommendation for adoption by the elders and passed to the congregation. Someone on the forum may be able to dig up the instruction to Elders. I'm vague on it as I wasn't secretary.
 
Nomex said:
This very simple yet profound statement, is something I came to understand a long time ago, and this very simple understanding, would free so many of the rank and file from their bondage to the liars at WT! Their belief that "Jehovah put's it in their hearts" they cannot even begin to understand, yet we are free moral agents. So statements like this in the Bible cannot mean what many think it means. When the Bible says "Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh", for example... if we have free will, it cannot mean what that statement says on face value. So in what way did Jehovah "harden the heart of Pharaoh"? Because Pharaoh having been created by Jehovah with free will, was able to "harden his heart" because Jehovah created each of us with free will!!!! Now think about these statements with the understanding that Jehovah created us, not as automatons, but with free will.

So when Jehovah says, regarding Babylon the Great, He put's it in their hearts (that is to say the governments) to carry out his will, yes their will, what he's really saying is, first of all, he foresaw what mankind was going to do, and he is going to let them, because it will prove we/mankind need Jehovah, yet they do it because it's what they want to do, and he's not going to stop them from exercising their free will, and Jehovah is saying, "oh and BTW, it's what I want because you are going to prove my point for me!!!" So he "put's it in their hearts" because we are created with free will! He's noyt litreally maneuvering them to do this, because if he did it would be the OPPOSITE of free will, if he did that! And that is the real crutch of WT's stupid teaching about the GT...it's kind of the beginning of that stupid understanding, never mind the fact that their idea about what the GT is has no relation to reality either!
Click to expand...
La falta de razonamiento y profundidad en la verdad está impulsado por su nivel de estudios. Leemos un texto en la reunión, las preguntas vienen por párrafos. Uno las realiza y el resto lee la respuesta . Encima te hacen prepararte La Atalaya como si fuese difícil encontrar la respuesta en el texto. Y tú la subrayas como si fuese necesario señalar lo encontrado. Ninguna pregunta o duda improvisada. Ninguna aclaración individual. Si no lo comprendes estás débil espiritualmente. Ya si planteas preguntas, que sería algo necesario para comprender mejor la escritura, dudas. Si dudas...problemas, porque eres templado y ya sabemos lo que Jehová hace con que son tibios. Que van a querer entender si tienen que obedecer. Ahí está la trampa!
 
Seadog said:
I was being facetious in referring to the donation as tithing. It was however a recommendation for adoption by the elders and passed to the congregation. Someone on the forum may be able to dig up the instruction to Elders. I'm vague on it as I wasn't secretary.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is correct. The branch has direction on presenting a resolution requesting that a specific amount be sent to HQ. The amt per publisher varies. Our case is about the same, $10/pub, per month. This comes out of the cong funds and is separate from any donations in the boxes labeled WWW or for special projects. If the entire cong donates money directly to/for the WWW, then the cong would not have funds to meet the agreement of $10/pub per month. I suppose this monthly amount, presented & agreed on by the cong pubs, guarantees a fixed revenue of $$$ to the branch, but the reasoning behind this request is not clearly explained. I guess relying on just voluntary donations isn't good enuff? Jehovah provides, but the GB needs a guaranteed revenue stream?
 
mts said:
Yes, this is correct. The branch has direction on presenting a resolution requesting that a specific amount be sent to HQ. The amt per publisher varies. Our case is about the same, $10/pub, per month. This comes out of the cong funds and is separate from any donations in the boxes labeled WWW or for special projects. If the entire cong donates money directly to/for the WWW, then the cong would not have funds to meet the agreement of $10/pub per month. I suppose this monthly amount, presented & agreed on by the cong pubs, guarantees a fixed revenue of $$$ to the branch, but the reasoning behind this request is not clearly explained. I guess relying on just voluntary donations isn't good enuff? Jehovah provides, but the GB needs a guaranteed revenue stream?
Click to expand...
The Groveling Body needs their monthly cache of Top Shelf liquor LOL.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top