Wednesday, May 1 2024 Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?

[PJ54]

​

Wednesday, May 1 2024​

After this I saw . . . a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.—Rev. 7:9.

After seeing the heavenly group, John sees “a great crowd.” Unlike the 144,000, the great crowd cannot be numbered. What do we learn about them? John is told: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev. 7:14) Upon surviving the great tribulation, this “great crowd” will live here on earth and enjoy amazing blessings. (Ps. 37:9-11, 27-29; Prov. 2:21, 22; Rev. 7:16, 17) Whether we have been selected to go to heaven or will remain here on earth, do we see ourselves in this description recorded in Revelation chapter 7? We should. What an exciting time that will be for both groups of God’s servants! We will be overjoyed that we chose to support Jehovah’s rulership. w22.05 16 ¶6-7
Examining the Scriptures Daily—2024​

Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?

Last year I gave a #4 talk on the Great Crowd. Research led me to Rev 19:2, which talks of a Great Crowd in Heaven. That lead me to an in d...

questions-4jehovahs-witnesses.blogspot.com

Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?​

Last year I gave a #4 talk on the Great Crowd. Research led me to Rev 19:2, which talks of a Great Crowd in Heaven. That lead me to an in depth study of the "naos" in Rev 7 and Rev 11:2. I am left VERY unsettled. It appears in every way that the Great Crowd of Rev 7 is indeed in heaven with the angels, Elders and 4 living creature. How do we really prove that the Great Crowd of Rev 7 is "before the throne" in the sense of having God's approval and not literally in heaven as it would appear?
__________________________________________________________

The thing that can be kind of confusing is that the 19th chapter of Revelation refers to two separate great crowds. The first mention of a great crowd indeed depicts them as being in heaven. Please notice, though, that the prophecy says that the great crowd in heaven says with a loud voice: "Praise Jah, you people!" So, obviously, that "great crowd" has reference to all of God's holy angels in heaven. But, who are the people they are exhorting to praise Jah? The people are those on earth who witness and survive Jah's destruction of Babylon the Great. So, then, that's why we read in the 6th verse that a great crowd responds to the angelic invitation and they praise Jehovah. Do you see the distinction?

We generally think of the term "great crowd" as applying strictly to the non-anointed flock of Jehovah's Witnesses, but that is not necessarily the way the Scriptures always use that term, as is evident at Revelation 19:1. So, a great crowd can be just a generic term that means a large number of individuals. A gathering of angels can rightly be called a great crowd, and a gathering of people can be a great crowd too.

As far as the Greek word naos, meaning temple of God, or literally "place of divine habitation," you must ask yourself: What is the temple of God in the Christian arrangement? According to the apostle Paul, the temple of God is the spiritual organization composed of all of the anointed. For example, Ephesians 2:20-22 says, in part: "Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah...a place for God to inhabit by spirit."

Another verse is 1 Corinthians 3: 16: "Do you not know that you people are God's temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in you?...for the temple of God is holy, which temple you people are."

Up until the time of Christ's arrival, Jehovah's spiritual temple is under construction, so-to-speak. But, when Jesus arrives, first he completes it, then he cleanses Jehovah's spiritual temple. So, what follows its completion is the inauguration of the temple. That's why Haggai 2:7 says of Jehovah's temple: "And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory, Jehovah of armies has said."

Now, if the anointed themselves are the temple of Jehovah, those so-called "desirable things" that fill the house cannot be anointed. So, back in Revelation 7:13-17, the great crowd is composed of those "desirable things" and they are ushered into the temple due to Jehovah's rocking the nations during the global holocaust called the great tribulation. So, while the anointed are the temple, the great crowd worships Jehovah in his temple, meaning that they come under the divine arrangement of the kingdom of God, which, as you well know, is composed of Christ and his 144,000 joint heirs.

That the great crowd is depicted as standing before the throne is in keeping with Jesus' own comments, where he urged his followers to make supplication that they may succeed in "standing before the Son of man." So, standing before God or the Son of man, merely means that one is able to attain a favorable judgment.

Also, consider Christ's parable of the sheep and the goats. After describing the Son of man sitting down on his judgment throne, Jesus said: "And all the nations will be gathered before him." A literal reading of that verse has led some to jump to the absurd conclusion that God resurrects all the wicked to heaven just so that he can condemn them to the everlasting fire. That, of course, is simply ludicrous. Being gathered before the throne simply means that the people of the world are brought to judgment before God. It doesn't mean that they are literally before his presence in heaven.

 

[PJ54]

65 Answers to 65 Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses using the New World Translation

65-answers-jehovahs-witnesses.blogspot.com

Question #44​

If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does I Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"?
____________________________________________

In the preceding verse Paul stated that those dead in union with Christ will rise first. Being in union with Christ means that they have been anointed and are part of the so-called body of Christ. But, sober readers ought to take note of the fact that Paul stated that the chosen ones will rise "first." This is in harmony with Revelation 20:6, which refers to the holy ones who experience the blessed "first resurrection." Now, if there is a first resurrection, that means that there is a secondary resurrection, otherwise it is meaningless to designate it as the first. The second resurrection is the earthly resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous, as Jesus indicated when he said that all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out and those who practiced vile things will have a probationary resurrection of judgment.

In contrast with those holy ones who are dead during the presence of Christ, Paul's reference to "we the living" is also in reference to those in union with Christ. But just as there are those dead who are not in union with Christ who will experience the second resurrection of the dead, there will also be living persons on earth during the presence of Christ who are not in union with Christ, but who are obedient to the faith. Revelation refers to these as a great crowd of people who will survive the great tribulation and remain on the earth as the nucleus of a new world.

 

[PJ54]

Question #74

If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, togeth...

jehovahs-witnesses-answers.blogspot.com

Question #74​

If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always BE WITH the Lord"? If Armageddon were to start next week, as a Jehovah’s Witness in good standing with the WTS, wouldn’t you be one of “the living who are surviving”? Would you expect to “meet the Lord in the air”? If not, then how do you explain this verse?
_____________________________

The remainder of that verse says that "those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." The expression "in union with Christ" refers specifically to those who are born again sons of God, hence spiritual brothers of Christ. They receive what the Bible calls the first resurrection. Naturally, if there is a first resurrection, there must also be a secondary resurrection, afterward. And, indeed, Jesus said that everyone in the memorial tombs will eventually hear his voice and return to the land of the living. Since Paul was in union with Christ, when he said "we the living," he did not simply mean anyone who happened to be alive at the time, but rather, specifically, those in union with Christ.

 

[Watchman]

It is amazing to me that all of the various denominations and sects do not believe something as biblically elementary as the fact that God intends to restore the earth and humankind. Some sects believe that the new earth is a literal new planet, which is about as silly as it gets. It makes sense, though, that the good news would be preached first before the end, and the focus of the good news would be the Bible's simple message of salvation: that you can survive the end of the world and live forever on earth. Sadly, most people are not rightly disposed for everlasting life.

 

[Paula]

I'm loving this thread. Making me think.

 

[PJ54]

Sadly, most people are not rightly disposed for everlasting life.

This is true unfortunately. Many are so sure surefire on being saved & going to heaven, even though they have have little to no understanding on scripture. Even THEN, when they do read the scripture, their preconceived notions make it impossible for them to come to the truth. They reason on that they have put in the works to go to heaven; yet, they didn't consider Romans chapter 4. The other crowd claims "once saved, always saved" because they just need faith; yet, they didn't consider James chapter 2. All the while there are those that do both but, they never consider 1st Corinthians chapter 13. It's like there's a sense of entitlement or something earned. That is why I genuinely believe Christendom will be stumbled down into darker ideologies. I can say that other beliefs will follow suit. It's sad since the JW's will really fall into this though there is hope a remnant shall return. There's a few links I'm putting in this comment since a few pertain to comments that might be of use, as well as an article from the main site, & a PDF of what Albert Pike had said in a letter to Mazzini in regards to religion & all 3 world wars. Hope they help!

How many “hopes” are there?

Stumper Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses - #40 QUESTION: If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two?

e-watchman.com

Friday, Jan 12th - Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant

Whatever you ask in my name, I will do this, so that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son.—John 14:13. We thank Jehovah that we can pray to him through his Son. Jesus is the channel that Jehovah uses to grant our requests. Jehovah listens to and answers prayers that are...

e-jehovahs-witnesses.com

Black ex-JW Tells of Real Conditions in Africa and Why Many JW's are Leaving....

I found the comments section interesting, too. Many confirming what the person in the video was saying. Also, many equally disgusted by the donation box in the 2023 convention drama.... And all the while we thought that our donation money was going to help build their Kingdom Halls. So...

e-jehovahs-witnesses.com

https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/albert-pike-letter-to-mazzini/Albert%20Pike%20Letter%20to%20Mazzini.pdf

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

I'm loving this thread. Making me think.

I agree totally!

 

[KingdomLeast]

It appears in every way that the Great Crowd of Rev 7 is indeed in heaven with the angels, Elders and 4 living creature.

That is what MY research has led me too. That the Great Crowd is a heavenly class, and that the "Other Sheep" of John 10 are the gentiles. The world of mankind will be given the opportunity to know and worship God during the Kingdom reign of Christ.

 

[Watchman]

That is what MY research has led me too. That the Great Crowd is a heavenly class, and that the "Other Sheep" of John 10 are the gentiles. The world of mankind will be given the opportunity to know and worship God during the Kingdom reign of Christ.

You evidently have not done very much research. If you simply read the 7th chapter of Revelation and have just a bit of knowledge, you can prove to yourself that the great crowd that comes out of the tribulation are humans on earth. "The One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” - Rev. 7:15-17

Those who receive the first resurrection are instantaneously immortal. They will not need to be shepherded or further guided to waters of life. Furthermore, the symbolism of God spreading his tent over them is exactly what it says in the 21st chapter, except the 21st chapter states that "The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people." Get it? Mankind.

 

[Chloe]

In my 40 year experience, very few witnesses have done any deep research ,sadly.

 

[Serenity]

Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?

Last year I gave a #4 talk on the Great Crowd. Research led me to Rev 19:2, which talks of a Great Crowd in Heaven. That lead me to an in d...

questions-4jehovahs-witnesses.blogspot.com

Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?​

Last year I gave a #4 talk on the Great Crowd. Research led me to Rev 19:2, which talks of a Great Crowd in Heaven. That lead me to an in depth study of the "naos" in Rev 7 and Rev 11:2. I am left VERY unsettled. It appears in every way that the Great Crowd of Rev 7 is indeed in heaven with the angels, Elders and 4 living creature. How do we really prove that the Great Crowd of Rev 7 is "before the throne" in the sense of having God's approval and not literally in heaven as it would appear?
__________________________________________________________

The thing that can be kind of confusing is that the 19th chapter of Revelation refers to two separate great crowds. The first mention of a great crowd indeed depicts them as being in heaven. Please notice, though, that the prophecy says that the great crowd in heaven says with a loud voice: "Praise Jah, you people!" So, obviously, that "great crowd" has reference to all of God's holy angels in heaven. But, who are the people they are exhorting to praise Jah? The people are those on earth who witness and survive Jah's destruction of Babylon the Great. So, then, that's why we read in the 6th verse that a great crowd responds to the angelic invitation and they praise Jehovah. Do you see the distinction?

We generally think of the term "great crowd" as applying strictly to the non-anointed flock of Jehovah's Witnesses, but that is not necessarily the way the Scriptures always use that term, as is evident at Revelation 19:1. So, a great crowd can be just a generic term that means a large number of individuals. A gathering of angels can rightly be called a great crowd, and a gathering of people can be a great crowd too.

As far as the Greek word naos, meaning temple of God, or literally "place of divine habitation," you must ask yourself: What is the temple of God in the Christian arrangement? According to the apostle Paul, the temple of God is the spiritual organization composed of all of the anointed. For example, Ephesians 2:20-22 says, in part: "Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah...a place for God to inhabit by spirit."

Another verse is 1 Corinthians 3: 16: "Do you not know that you people are God's temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in you?...for the temple of God is holy, which temple you people are."

Up until the time of Christ's arrival, Jehovah's spiritual temple is under construction, so-to-speak. But, when Jesus arrives, first he completes it, then he cleanses Jehovah's spiritual temple. So, what follows its completion is the inauguration of the temple. That's why Haggai 2:7 says of Jehovah's temple: "And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory, Jehovah of armies has said."

Now, if the anointed themselves are the temple of Jehovah, those so-called "desirable things" that fill the house cannot be anointed. So, back in Revelation 7:13-17, the great crowd is composed of those "desirable things" and they are ushered into the temple due to Jehovah's rocking the nations during the global holocaust called the great tribulation. So, while the anointed are the temple, the great crowd worships Jehovah in his temple, meaning that they come under the divine arrangement of the kingdom of God, which, as you well know, is composed of Christ and his 144,000 joint heirs.

That the great crowd is depicted as standing before the throne is in keeping with Jesus' own comments, where he urged his followers to make supplication that they may succeed in "standing before the Son of man." So, standing before God or the Son of man, merely means that one is able to attain a favorable judgment.

Also, consider Christ's parable of the sheep and the goats. After describing the Son of man sitting down on his judgment throne, Jesus said: "And all the nations will be gathered before him." A literal reading of that verse has led some to jump to the absurd conclusion that God resurrects all the wicked to heaven just so that he can condemn them to the everlasting fire. That, of course, is simply ludicrous. Being gathered before the throne simply means that the people of the world are brought to judgment before God. It doesn't mean that they are literally before his presence in heaven.

Thank you PJ. However, I looked up Revelation 19:2 and it doesn't talk about the great crowd. Revelation 19:2 reads: "because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment upon the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves at her hand.”
.....Okay, just realized it should be Revelation 19:1.

 

[Serenity]

Sadly, most people are not rightly disposed for everlasting life.

Do you think that will change though? It seems that the gospel age has been primarily the phase in Jehovah's plan to select, gather and test the anointed for their future roll. This is especially evident because the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily written to and concerning the anointed ones, those called and chosen.

In a similar way, God chose the Israilites out of mankind first, but later opened the way for the gentiles to have a relationship with him as well. The "desirable things of the nations" could refer to many, many more among mankind who will come in during the great tribulation, besides just some from among the current crowd of Jehovah's Wittnesses, could it not?

While many people may or may not have had someone knock at their door offering the Watchtower magazine, it doesn't seem that the majority of mankind has truly had a full opportunity to learn what our Creator has planned, or even what salvation is, or what it means. This is due mainly because of Satan's misleading of mankind and because of lack of knowledge due to false religion. It just seems that everyone needs to truly have ample opportunity to learn the truth and, if possible, be saved. It doesn't seem that the eternal destiny of individuals should be determined by whether or not they accepted the Watchtower magazine or not, or even the offer of a Bible study, in my humble opinion.

For so many years, as Jehovah's Witnesses, we were taught that the separating of the sheep and goats was going on during our preaching work, but that's no longer believed, but now, the separating of sheep and goats is believed to be in the future. The 1,000 years is a period of judgment (not adverse necessarily, but in a probationary sense), for the majority of mankind who died never knowing God. It's been the teaching of JWs that if people don't respond now to their preaching work they won't survive Armegeddon. That's the only opportunity they will have. I know that Jehovah and Jesus are always just, and will be so in the judging of mankind and angels.

When does the call actually go out to "Get out of her my people", the call to get out of Babylon the Great, and who is that call directed to? When & to whom? Or is this an ongoing call, from some point in time forward?

 

[Watchman]

Do you think that will change though? It seems that the gospel age has been primarily the phase in Jehovah's plan to primarily select, gather and test the anointed for their future roll. This is especially evident because the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily written to and concerning the anointed ones, those called and chosen. Similarly, God chose the Israilites out of mankind first, but later opened the way for the gentiles to have a relationship with him as well. The "desirable things of the nations" could refer to many, many more among mankind who will come in during the great tribulation, besides just some from among the current crowd of Jehovah's Wittnesses, could it not?

While many people may or may not have had someone knock at their door offering the Watchtower magazine, it doesn't seem that the majority of mankind has truly had a full opportunity to learn what our Creator has planned, or even what salvation is, or what it means. This is due mainly because of Satan's misleading of mankind and because of lack of knowledge due to false religion. It just seems that everyone needs to truly have ample opportunity to learn the truth and, if possible, be saved. It doesn't seem that the eternal destiny of individuals should be determined by whether or not they accepted the Watchtower magazine or not, or even the offer of a Bible study, in my humble opinion. For so many years as Jehovah's Witnesses, we were taught that the separating of the sheep and goats was going on during our preaching work, but that's no longer believed, but the separating of sheep and goats is now believed to be in the future. The 1,000 years is a period of judgment for the majority of mankind who diee never knowing God. It's been the teaching of JWs that if people don't respond now to their preaching work they won't survive Armegeddon. That's the only opportunity they will have. I know that Jehovah and Jesus are always just and will be so in the judging of mankind and angels.

When does the call actually go out to "Get out of her my people", the call to get out of Babylon the Great, and who is that call directed to? When & to whom? Or is this an ongoing call, from some point in time forward?

Jesus said the good news will be preached first. What is the point of preaching a message of salvation if people can be saved without it?
Keep in mind that a large percentage of the population (one-quarter) is destined to be laid low by sword, famine, and pestilence before the tribulation even begins. They will go to the Grave, meaning they will return in the resurrection. But, no, I do not think people who do not know the truth before the end begins will suddenly see the light. That is why the scripture exhorts us to seek Jehovah before the day of his anger.

 

[Serenity]

Jesus said the good news will be preached first. What is the point of preaching a message of salvation if people can be saved without it?
Keep in mind that a large percentage of the population (one-quarter) is destined to be laid low by sword, famine, and pestilence before the tribulation even begins. They will go to the Grave, meaning they will return in the resurrection. But, no, I do not think people who do not know the truth before the end begins will suddenly see the light. That is why the scripture exhorts us to seek Jehovah before the day of his anger.

True, but Jesus said the good news would be preached as a witness to all the nations. The day of salvation, the acceptable time, that Jesus and the apostles preached was for those called to the salvation of heavenly life, was it not?

And, is the day of Jehovah's anger the great tribulation, or Armegeddon? It seems Armegeddon is the final phase of the world's adverse judgment when the unredeemable who take the 666 mark are cut off. While the great tribulation comes on all mankind, isn't it's primary purpose to cleanse his people? And won't that be the time, as you said in the above post, when the nation's will be shaken so that the desirable things can come in?

Quoting from your post above:

"the great crowd is composed of those "desirable things" and they are ushered into the temple due to Jehovah's rocking the nations during the global holocaust called the great tribulation."

 

[Serenity]

Or are the "desirable things" just Jehovah's Witnesses only?

"Haggai 2:7 says of Jehovah's temple: "And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory, Jehovah of armies has said.""

Another thought: There are an estimated 385,000 babies born each day around the world (140 million a year). This number is expected to remain relatively stable in the 50 years from 2020 to 2070.

While the babies who were killed during the Israelite wars, and likely in Sodom & Gomorrah and surrounding cities and at other times, these all will be resurrected under the kingdom and have an opportunity to learn of the salvation from Adamic sin and opportunity for eternal life by putting faith in Christ Jesus. But what about all the babies being constantly born every day? They need to have their chance for salvation and eternal life too, don't they?

 

[Serenity]

All of the following information is from:

The Development Of Jehovah's Witness Doctrine, Wikipedia​

"Rutherford spoke of spiritual "lightning flashes in the temple".The Society claims its doctrine of the "great crowd" and "other sheep" were "revealed" to "God's earthly servants" in 1935. Witness literature has also described sudden changes in doctrines as "flashes of light" given by God through his Holy Spirit. A 1930 [Watchtower] publication claimed God used "invisible deputies" and "invisible angels" to pass his "messages" to The Watchtower.The Watchtower told Witnesses it was not necessary for them to understand how this took place."

"1932: Identification of "Jonadabs", a "sheep" class of people who take a stand for righteousness and who are to be preserved by God through Armageddon to gain everlasting life on earth. The term was drawn from the account at 2 Kings 10. In 1920 Rutherford had written that it was "unreasonable" to think God was developing any class other than the little flock (the 144,000 to attain heavenly kingship) and the "great company" (second spiritual class also with a heavenly hope). In 1934 the Watchtower explained that the "Jonadabs" survive Armageddon by living in the figurative "City of refuge", represented by remaining affiliated with the Watch Tower Society."

"1935: "Great crowd" of Revelation 7 defined as the "sheep" of Matthew 25, resulting in a redirection of proselytizing efforts from gathering the "elect" (remnant of the 144,000 with a heavenly destiny) to gathering an indeterminate number of people who could survive Armageddon and receive everlasting life on earth. Previously, the "great crowd" was believed to have a heavenly hope."

1937: Jehovah's Witnesses with an earthly hope could be described as "Christian". In 1930 the Watchtower had asserted that the term "Christian" could be applied only to anointed followers of Christ.

End of Wikipedia quote.

Rutherford also said in the 1920s that Millions Now Living Will Never Die and predicted the return of faithful men of old by resurrection was to occur in 1925.

 

[a watcher]

...Keep in mind that a large percentage of the population (one-quarter) is destined to be laid low by sword, famine, and pestilence before the tribulation even begins...

This is kind of a scary thought. How are we going to dispose of 2 billion bodies?

 

[KingdomLeast]

You evidently have not done very much research. If you simply read the 7th chapter of Revelation and have just a bit of knowledge, you can prove to yourself that the great crowd that comes out of the tribulation are humans on earth.

On the contrary I've done plenty of research on this subject, but you're perfectly entitled to believe as you wish. After all this is your forum. Besides, space doesn't allow for me to present my thoughts in a clear and concise manner. Not that you would care to know what they are. You're convinced that you have the truth in regard to this subject, so why entertain my thoughts, or anybody else's, right? Something you no doubt carried over from your time with the JW's. You're here to teach, not to learn or share ideas, unless those ideas are your ideas. But I digress. Have a good day.

 

[KingdomLeast]

Jesus said the good news will be preached first. What is the point of preaching a message of salvation if people can be saved without it?

I guess that depends on what you believe the purpose of preaching the Good News is for. Was it to reach every man, woman and child and save them or was it simply to find those who would be co-heirs with Jesus? So when that class was complete, then the attention would be focused on the rest of mankind. Jesus spoke in parables, because the Good News was not for everyone. It was a specific purpose.

 

[KingdomLeast]

While many people may or may not have had someone knock at their door offering the Watchtower magazine, it doesn't seem that the majority of mankind has truly had a full opportunity to learn what our Creator has planned, or even what salvation is, or what it means. This is due mainly because of Satan's misleading of mankind and because of lack of knowledge due to false religion. It just seems that everyone needs to truly have ample opportunity to learn the truth and, if possible, be saved. It doesn't seem that the eternal destiny of individuals should be determined by whether or not they accepted the Watchtower magazine or not, or even the offer of a Bible study, in my humble opinion. For so many years as Jehovah's Witnesses, we were taught that the separating of the sheep and goats was going on during our preaching work, but that's no longer believed, but the separating of sheep and goats is now believed to be in the future. The 1,000 years is a period of judgment for the majority of mankind who die never knowing God. It's been the teaching of JWs that if people don't respond now to their preaching work they won't survive Armageddon. That's the only opportunity they will have. I know that Jehovah and Jesus are always just and will be so in the judging of mankind and angels.

And that my dear is what the Kingdom reign is for, where everyone will learn of Jehovah and what He did for the world through His Son, Jesus Christ. It's not universalism or even a second chance, because they never had a first chance, having been born in sin and death. It's an opportunity to learn, free from the distractions and wiles of the adversary.

When does the call actually go out to "Get out of her my people", the call to get out of Babylon the Great, and who is that call directed to? When & to whom? Or is this an ongoing call, from some point in time forward?

The call has sounded, and the Lord's people will have to flee from Babylon so as not to share in her sins. That call will sound until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. There's only ONE call, that call is for a purpose. Where in the scriptures is there a call now for individuals who have no holy spirit, no mediator, no purpose but to serve a group of men and do their bidding? Where? Where is 1935 in the scriptures?