KingdomLeast
Well-known member
They won't stay dead, that's what the resurrection is for.
Wednesday, May 1 2024 Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?
- Thread starter PJ54
- Start date
You are indoctrinated by the Bible Students. That is why you are impervious to reason and promote the great crowd as a secondary heavenly sort. You are entitled to believe that nonsense. But you can't promote it here. People are dealing with enough lies without you dredging up the BS' stuff. Bye.
BagdadBill
Well-known member
Excuse me while I whip this out - Cleavon Little (Blazing Saddles circa 1974)
I have a saying or principle that I worked out over the decades and so far it hasn't let me down. Take any point in the bible and compare to a correct understanding of the first six chapters of Genesis. If it doesn't agree with Genesis then there is a flaw in understanding.
To my point, where did Jehovah put Adam and Eve? Earth, and he said boo diddley about going to heaven. We were made for life on earth and as near as I can tell, God made earth with humans in mind. I have heard some non-JW say they thought maybe we go to heaven for a little while and then get returned to earth but what would be the point of that? God would have to remake us just for that purpose and then discard that form to send us back. That is foolishness and so is the idea that man was destined for anywhere but earth.
Can it be that simple. Am I over simplifying it? Could be but I don't think so.
I will add too this the thoughts we have heard as JW regarding the heavenly hope. There is a calling and an understanding that happens. I can tell you that I have never felt an urge to go to heaven. Even when I attended other churches I held my tongue when people would talk about going to heaven because I never understood why we would leave earth if God put us here and basically gave us the planet.
I never felt the calling because I was never invited. My place is here if I am even worthy of that. This is our home and those who believe that God will destroy it or let it be destroyed, regardless of a weak understanding of Revelation, are in for a surprise. Same goes for the Rapturites.
I don't mean to sound dogmatic but this point of the great crowd was one of the first things I read in the Truth book that made me realize I was finally learning truth from God. No other church that I had been to taught this. Finally I could rationalize why I didn't want to die and why I didn't want to leave earth.
Just to add an additional wake up, humans have no idea what happens in heaven but the angels know what life is like down here and they gave up their proper place and assignment to come fornicate with us lowly humans. They wanted what Jehovah gave to us and us alone. Angels get to see our Creator face to face and I will never have that privilege.
I have a saying or principle that I worked out over the decades and so far it hasn't let me down. Take any point in the bible and compare to a correct understanding of the first six chapters of Genesis. If it doesn't agree with Genesis then there is a flaw in understanding.
To my point, where did Jehovah put Adam and Eve? Earth, and he said boo diddley about going to heaven. We were made for life on earth and as near as I can tell, God made earth with humans in mind. I have heard some non-JW say they thought maybe we go to heaven for a little while and then get returned to earth but what would be the point of that? God would have to remake us just for that purpose and then discard that form to send us back. That is foolishness and so is the idea that man was destined for anywhere but earth.
Can it be that simple. Am I over simplifying it? Could be but I don't think so.
I will add too this the thoughts we have heard as JW regarding the heavenly hope. There is a calling and an understanding that happens. I can tell you that I have never felt an urge to go to heaven. Even when I attended other churches I held my tongue when people would talk about going to heaven because I never understood why we would leave earth if God put us here and basically gave us the planet.
I never felt the calling because I was never invited. My place is here if I am even worthy of that. This is our home and those who believe that God will destroy it or let it be destroyed, regardless of a weak understanding of Revelation, are in for a surprise. Same goes for the Rapturites.
I don't mean to sound dogmatic but this point of the great crowd was one of the first things I read in the Truth book that made me realize I was finally learning truth from God. No other church that I had been to taught this. Finally I could rationalize why I didn't want to die and why I didn't want to leave earth.
Just to add an additional wake up, humans have no idea what happens in heaven but the angels know what life is like down here and they gave up their proper place and assignment to come fornicate with us lowly humans. They wanted what Jehovah gave to us and us alone. Angels get to see our Creator face to face and I will never have that privilege.
Rev. 19:21 - 'But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.' Perhaps??
That is Rudolf Steiner's reasoning. We were led to believe that after you die you go to heaven for a 'vacation' similar to the summer holidays from school, and then come back to go to the next grade. Or sometimes you have to do the same lesson again. My question has always been: How come I don't know what I did wrong in my life before so I can learn to do it right? I know what I learned at school last year, but not in my previous life, isn't that strange? Never got an answer.
BagdadBill
Well-known member
That sounds like Hunduism. Reincarnation until you get it right. If I can't remember my past mistakes, how do I avoid them? The idea itself defies logic. Then you have the Mormons who have this idea that Adam and Eve sinned so that we could have procreation and bring the whole hee haw gang down here. They mention the third of angels influenced by Satan and then let you connect the dots. A God dishonoring teaching if I ever heard one. They avoid the concept of what would have happened if Adam had not sinned.
Yes, my father and step-mother were Mormon and banned me because I became a JW
Serenity
Well-known member
It was God's purpose to call only a "little flock" to heavenly life, therefore not everyone can be called. It was never just a matter of gathering 144,000 people to take them to heaven, even people who have faith in God. One of the main reasons why Jehovah has allowed nearly 2,000 years to pass between the first coming of Christ to the second coming of Christ was to select, call and choose individuals from mankind that would be suitable, have the right attributes and qualities, be willing and desirous of going to heaven to be with Jesus Christ, and who want to serve and help mankind to overcome Adamic sin and the imperfection and pain that it has brought to the human race, physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. Besides the time needed for these ones to be born and called and chosen, time has been necessary for the trial and testing of these individuals, and under the adverse circumstances of living in imperfection in a wicked world and proving faithful through whatever trials come upon them. Having lived as imperfect, sinful humans under adverse conditions, in Satan's world, and yet proving themselves faithful, Jehovah can use these ones the help imperfect humans to overcome their weaknesses and sinful nature in the new world, and they will be compassionate kings and priests, having suffered through the worst of circumstances and yet conquering them and remaining faithful through it all, to the end. Many anointed ones are no doubt dealing with some trials due to erroneous decisions and direction given by their imperfect "rulers". And, many are also "ruled" over by imperfect elders who are also under other "rulers".
"O Jehovah our God, lords besides thee had dominion over us; but in thee alone will we make mention of thy name." Isaiah 26:13 Smith's Literal Translation
"O LORD, our God, masters other than you have ruled over us, but we praise your name alone."
Isaiah 26:13 NET Bible (New English Translation)
Had Adam & Eve not sinned, this "new covenant" arrangement would never have been necessary. All humans would have been born to remain and live on earth, forever, if obeidient. 144,000 is a very, very small number, a "little flock", compared to the billions, and billions of humans who have ever lived, and will live on earth under the kingdom.
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BagdadBill
Well-known member
BagdadBill
Well-known member
Great comment.
Serenity
Well-known member
People cannot be saved without hearing and responding to the message of salvation, which is precisely the point. Being saved is only possible by putting faith in Jesus Christ. It just seems only just and fair that all men and women actually have the opportunity to hear the message of salvation. For instance, some countries and peoples have obviously had more opportunity to hear the message of salvation than others. There are many more Jehovah's Witnesses in the lands of Christendom than in other non "Christian" lands. And, yet, we know that God is not partial. Jehovah is an equal opportunity God, is He not?
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Thoughts on the great crowd:
If you read Romans 2:16,.....THEN verses 14 & 15 it becomes evident there will be some pass-through survivors that don't meet the criteria we think of with the white robes.
Watchtower conflates the great tribulation and Armageddon, yet the Bible describes one as being cut short and the other brought to completion.
In Rev 7:1-8 it is very noteworthy and overlooked that John HEARS about each of the 12,000 he does not see them. It is impossible for someone to 'see' 12,000 people or items. Humans cannot do it, they have to be told how many are in a group and then when they see the group they can identify its a group of such and such. Once you start counting past 100, humans must have some sort of mechanical device or aid to keep the count going accurately. This hearing vs. seeing in Rev 7:9 is an important point for accurate understanding.
rbi8- Mark 6:34 Well, on getting out he saw a great crowd,...
nwt(2013) - Mark 6:34 Well, on getting out, he saw a large crowd,
rbi8- Luke 7:11 ... and a great crowd were traveling...
nwt(2013) Luke 7:11 ... and a large crowd were traveling ...
There are 2 Greek words that USED to be translated as 'great'.......'polys' and 'megas'. Recent translations change many of the 'polys' from great to large, which is more accurate. Rev 7:9 uses the 'polys' but that has not been changed. Rev 7:9 is more correctly a large crowd vs. a great crowd.
Setting Rev 7:9 aside for a moment, in the book of Revelation, white robes are only used to describe angels and the anointed.
When Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, John 2:14 is talking about life within themselves the anointed receive as Jesus describes fountains that IMPART everlasting life. The large crowd of Rev 7:9 is guided to these fountains in 7:17.
Ezek 37:26-28 is talking about the anointed and there the 'tabernacle will actually prove to be over them' which is the same the tent of God is with mankind in Rev 21 (mankind that is spiritual Israel that becomes New Jerusalem that settles upon all the nations). It should be noted that a bride is a bride on her wedding day, see the context of Rev 21:2 with verse 3. The tent is settling with the anointed...go back to Ezekiel 37:26-28 and read again, there is a contrast with the nations which also harmonizes with Rev 21:24.
Rev 22:14-- only those wash their robes go into the city.....only the anointed are in the city, the city settles on the nations. (See also Rev 22:3-only the lamb and the slaves rendering sacred service are in the city).
Only the anointed receive salvation after the great tribulation BUT BEFORE Armageddon. Large crowd in Rev 7:9 receive salvation after GT.
The large crowd of Rev 7:9 is not a secondary heavenly class, it is the remnant of the anointed on earth.
The other sheep are Gentile anointed. 99.8% of the Greek scriptures is about the anointed.
Maybe a reprieve for KingdomLeast? I think he was trying.
If you read Romans 2:16,.....THEN verses 14 & 15 it becomes evident there will be some pass-through survivors that don't meet the criteria we think of with the white robes.
Watchtower conflates the great tribulation and Armageddon, yet the Bible describes one as being cut short and the other brought to completion.
In Rev 7:1-8 it is very noteworthy and overlooked that John HEARS about each of the 12,000 he does not see them. It is impossible for someone to 'see' 12,000 people or items. Humans cannot do it, they have to be told how many are in a group and then when they see the group they can identify its a group of such and such. Once you start counting past 100, humans must have some sort of mechanical device or aid to keep the count going accurately. This hearing vs. seeing in Rev 7:9 is an important point for accurate understanding.
rbi8- Mark 6:34 Well, on getting out he saw a great crowd,...
nwt(2013) - Mark 6:34 Well, on getting out, he saw a large crowd,
rbi8- Luke 7:11 ... and a great crowd were traveling...
nwt(2013) Luke 7:11 ... and a large crowd were traveling ...
There are 2 Greek words that USED to be translated as 'great'.......'polys' and 'megas'. Recent translations change many of the 'polys' from great to large, which is more accurate. Rev 7:9 uses the 'polys' but that has not been changed. Rev 7:9 is more correctly a large crowd vs. a great crowd.
Setting Rev 7:9 aside for a moment, in the book of Revelation, white robes are only used to describe angels and the anointed.
When Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, John 2:14 is talking about life within themselves the anointed receive as Jesus describes fountains that IMPART everlasting life. The large crowd of Rev 7:9 is guided to these fountains in 7:17.
Ezek 37:26-28 is talking about the anointed and there the 'tabernacle will actually prove to be over them' which is the same the tent of God is with mankind in Rev 21 (mankind that is spiritual Israel that becomes New Jerusalem that settles upon all the nations). It should be noted that a bride is a bride on her wedding day, see the context of Rev 21:2 with verse 3. The tent is settling with the anointed...go back to Ezekiel 37:26-28 and read again, there is a contrast with the nations which also harmonizes with Rev 21:24.
Rev 22:14-- only those wash their robes go into the city.....only the anointed are in the city, the city settles on the nations. (See also Rev 22:3-only the lamb and the slaves rendering sacred service are in the city).
Only the anointed receive salvation after the great tribulation BUT BEFORE Armageddon. Large crowd in Rev 7:9 receive salvation after GT.
The large crowd of Rev 7:9 is not a secondary heavenly class, it is the remnant of the anointed on earth.
The other sheep are Gentile anointed. 99.8% of the Greek scriptures is about the anointed.
Maybe a reprieve for KingdomLeast? I think he was trying.
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Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
Ephesians 1:8-10
“This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself PURPOSED FOR AN ADMINISTRATION at the full limit of the appointed times, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER IN THE CHRIST, the things in the heavens and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH.”
STUDY NOTES : “to gather all things together in the Christ: The administration that God has put in place will be carried out in two stages. The first stage is to gather together the things in the heavens, that is, those who are called to rule with Christ in heaven. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11;1Pe 1:4) This stage began at Pentecost 33 C.E. (Ac 2:1-4) The second stage is to gather together the things on the earth, that is, those who are to live in an earthly paradise as subjects of the heavenly government.”
“This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself PURPOSED FOR AN ADMINISTRATION at the full limit of the appointed times, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER IN THE CHRIST, the things in the heavens and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH.”
STUDY NOTES : “to gather all things together in the Christ: The administration that God has put in place will be carried out in two stages. The first stage is to gather together the things in the heavens, that is, those who are called to rule with Christ in heaven. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11;1Pe 1:4) This stage began at Pentecost 33 C.E. (Ac 2:1-4) The second stage is to gather together the things on the earth, that is, those who are to live in an earthly paradise as subjects of the heavenly government.”
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Serenity
Well-known member
@Watchman , @PJ54
Regarding the NWT apparently spurious rendering of Revelation 19:1, 6 "Praise Jah, you people":
The New World Translation published by the Watchtower says "Praise Jah, you people", both in verse 1 and verse 6 of chapter 19, but is that what the original Scriptures say in those verses? I find that not to be the case in any other translation, including the Emphatic Diaglott and the Watchtower's own Kingdom Interlinier, which both contain the original Greek text, translated word for word into English. The words, "you people" are not there. It simply does not say "you people" in verse 1 or in verse 6. It is evident that the words, "you people" have been added to verses 1 & 6 by the WB&TS to their New World Translation.
In the American Standard, King James, and Revised Standard Versions, and Rotherham's Literal Word by Word Translation, the Living Bible, and many others, Revelation 19:1 does not say "you people" either, in verse 1 or verse 6 of Revelation chapter 19. These other translations say either "Halleliujah" or "Alleluia" (KJV), meaning Praise Jehovah, but those words are not followed by the words "you people", as the NWT renders it.
So, I'm not saying that this great crowd, as spoken of in Revelation 19, isn't referring to the angels in heaven, as it very well may be, however, it isn't honest for the Watchtower, in my humble opinion, to insert words into the Bible that do not appear in the original Greek Scriptures. In fact, if you read the entire 19th chapter of Revelation in the Emphatic Diaglott, neither the words, "you people" or even "people" ever appear in verses 1 or 6 of Revelation chapter 19 where the NWT has inserted those words.
In fact, Revelation 22:18, 19 warns:
"I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: 19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book." Revelation 22: 18, 19
And, it seems to be very presumptuous for the translators of the NWT to just conclude that that is what the writer actually meant in those verses. The words "you people" were apparently added for a reason by the Watchtower; specifically to support their teachiing. They probably encountered a problem when preaching/teaching, especially with those using the King James Bible which reads:
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory and honour, and power unto the Lord our God."
Rev 19:1 KJV
The above may be a mistranslation of the KJV, as people would not be in heaven.
The American Standard Version may be more accurate and translates it:
"After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah; Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God:"
Revelation 19:1 American Standard Version
And the ASV reads in verse 6:
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah: for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigneth."
Revelation 19:6 American Standard Version
Again, neither of these verses contain the words, "you people" after Hallelujah, as the NWT has added to their Bible. The words, "you people" is a spurious addition to the text.
"For nothing is hid, that shall not be made manifest; nor anything secret, that shall not be known and come to light." Luke 8:17
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Then they added that 'only' in your English translation, because neither in the Dutch Rbi8 translation, nor in the Study Bible, nor in the English translation via the library app does it say 'you people'
Rev. 19:1 -'After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,'
Rev. 19:6 - ' And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: 'Praise Jah, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king!' Both WT English Study Bible
Openbaring 19:1 - 'Daarna hoorde ik iets dat klonk als een luide stem van een grote menigte in de hemel. Ze zeiden: ‘Loof Jah! De redding en de eer en de kracht zijn van onze God,'
Openbaring 19:6 - 'En ik hoorde iets dat klonk als een stem van een grote menigte en als bulderend water en als zware donderslagen. Ze zeiden: ‘Loof Jah, want Jehovah, onze God, de Almachtige, is als koning gaan regeren!' Both WT Dutch Study Bible
Openbaring. 19:1 - 'Na deze dingen hoorde ik iets dat was als een luide stem van een grote schare in de hemel. Zij zeiden: „Looft Jah! De redding en de heerlijkheid en de kracht behoren aan onze God,'
Openbaring 19:6 - 'En ik hoorde iets dat was als een stem van een grote schare en als een geluid van vele wateren en als een geluid van zware donderslagen. Zij zeiden: „Looft Jah, want Jehovah, onze God, de Almachtige, is als koning gaan regeren.' Both WT Dutch Rbi8 translation
And the last one being used in the Library app:
Rev. 19:1 - 'After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a great crowd in heaven saying “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,'
Rev. 19:6 - 'And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a great crowd and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying “Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign!' Both from the Byington translation
So????
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I don't see 'you people', which one are you reading it from?
19 After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah!*+ The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, 2 because his judgments are true and righteous.+ For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality,* and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.”*+ 3 And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah!*+ And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.”+ 4 And the 24 elders+ and the four living creatures+ fell down and worshipped God who sits on the throne and said: “Amen! Praise Jah!”*+ 5 Also, a voice came from the throne and said: “Be praising our God, all you his slaves,+ who fear him, the small ones and the great.”+ 6 And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah,*+ because Jehovah* our God, the Almighty,+ has begun to rule as king!+
9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+ 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders+ and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Let the praise and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength be to our God forever and ever.+ Amen.”
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Serenity
Well-known member
Wow. I did't realized they corrected that. I was using and quoted from the 1984 New World Translation (1961, 1981, 1984). They've taken the words "you people" out of the 2013 New World Translation in both verses 1 & 6 of Revelation 19. They must have realized it was spurious. One of the few improvements I've seen in the 2013 translation.
Serenity
Well-known member
Thank you for pointing that out.
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