Wednesday, May 1 2024 Is the great crowd in heaven or on earth?
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Serenity
Well-known member
In the exortation in heaven at Revelation 19:1, it's the 24 elders and the four living creatures who respond to the exortation and who "fell down and worshipped God who sits on the throne and said: Amen! Praise Jah!""
Then verse 5 says, "Also, a voice came from the throne and said: "Be praising our God, all you his slaves, who fear him, the small ones and the great."
Psalm 150:6 in the 1984 NWT reads: "Every breathing thing--let it praise Jah. Praise Jah, you people!"
Psalm 150:6 in the 2013 NWT reads: "Every breathing thing-let it praise Jah. Praise Jah!"
So, as at Rev 19:1, the 2013 has removed the phrase, "you people" from this verse as well, while it appeared in the 1984 NWT.
The Rotherham Literal Word-by-Word Translation reads at Ps. 150:6: "Let every breathing thing praise Yah, Praise ye Yah!", so again, here, "you people" isn't contained in the original Hebrew text.
"Every breathing thing", of course would include people, but I suppose also all breathing things, animals, etc. bring praise to Jehovah because they declare his glorious qualities and wisdom.
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Serenity
Well-known member
We have accurate Bible translations today because the Jewish scribes were meticulous when making copies of the Scriptures; the Masoretes counted even the letters that they copied, even counting every single letter, to ensure that no errors were made, and no words duplicated or added to, or omitted from, the copied text. It has proved to ensure that spurious additions and changes or errors have been detected and eraticated.
I actually prefer the 1984 NWT as I believe it to be more accurate than the 2013 revised NWT, except in the instances referenced above. The 2013 English NWT, I was told by a pioneer sister, is actually not as accurate as the 1984 English NWT. It was modified to harmonize the multiple languages into which it has been translated.
I actually prefer the 1984 NWT as I believe it to be more accurate than the 2013 revised NWT, except in the instances referenced above. The 2013 English NWT, I was told by a pioneer sister, is actually not as accurate as the 1984 English NWT. It was modified to harmonize the multiple languages into which it has been translated.
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BagdadBill
Well-known member
Ah yes. Crickets. Our new food group in the USA. I'll be eating Polk salad and salvaged wheat that fell off the trucks. Learn what is edible in your area. God said we would sweat to earn our living. Maybe make some mistakes along the way but even in the desert of Arizona there are things that can be used for food. We are never left entirely on our own.
I have made up my mind that I will try to outlive those who intend to murder us. The people who have claimed Earth as their own property are not authorized to exercise ownership. God gave it to all of us and hoped we would have the dignity to respect another man's fig tree.
I just want to see one angel, with a sword in his hand and an attitude. Then I can die peacefully.
Joseph Stephan
Well-known member
Could the great crowd be more than just jws ?
The bible says that no man could number?
If it was just jws, wouldn't we be able to number?
Just saying.....
The bible says that no man could number?
If it was just jws, wouldn't we be able to number?
Just saying.....
There is no 'could' about it, most defiantly the GC is made up of more than just JWs. In fact, JWs will make up a small % of the overall total of the GC.
They claim there are around 8.5 million JWs today. Now account for how many JWs will die among the 2 billion that die during the POD, then account for how many JWs that will take the mark. None of those will be among the GC. What number of the 8.5 will be among the GC, who knows.
Now account from the 6 billion that are here after the POD that are not JWs. How many will take the mark, who knows. How many will refuse the mark, who knows, but those that do refuse will be part of the GC.
This is why the number can't be numbered, not because it is an impossible number to count but because it is just not known until the end of the 42 months. But whatever amount it is considered large/great.
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Melinda
Well-known member
I don’t know why but I have always gotten stuck on the words Great crowd … when I think of a massive number of people I think of the word Army. A great Crowd doesn’t sound like an Army.
Serenity
Well-known member
I've wondered if there may be others included in the great crowd, based upon the Israelites Exodus from Egypt. After seeing how Jehovah defeated all of the gods of the Egyptians, thus proving them to be false gods, and proving Jehovah to be the true god, a vast mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.
Exodus 12:37, 38
Most people have no clue what God's purpose is or any inclination to find out. And suddenly when everything blows up billions of people will know the truth? You really don't know what you are talking about.
Serenity
Well-known member
John the Baptist ate locusts and wild honey. Perhaps he dipped the locusts in the honey?
What is it that I don't know? Are you saying that the only ones that will make up the GC are JWs?
So out of 8.5 million JWs - the ones that die as part of the 2 billion and then - those that do take the mark, you are saying that those remaining JWs are the ones that are the GC...
Also, you speak of knowing the truth, but didn't you just recently say that the WTS has not prepared JWs for what's coming, that they know nothing about the upcoming 42 months and the mark?
And I didn't say billions would make up the GC, I said who knows how many it will be but that it just says that it will be great/large.
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SkinnyAndShort
Well-known member
I don’t think you said after things blow up billions will know the truth, did you?
Not that I am aware of. I just responded to the question; 'Could the great crowd be more than just jws.'
My thinking is yes, but apparently others think no.
And I don't know what truth has to be known before the 42 months and what good it does because it is still said that there will be those that have insight that will impart understanding to many during that time. Obviously, those with the insight knew it (truth) prior, but there are many who get it at that time by the ones who are imparting it to them. So yes, MANY will know truth after things 'blow up'.
If JWs have the needed understanding now, then they will be the ones that impart it to the many during that time. If currently JWs have no inkling of what is to come because the WTS has not prepared them, then whatever claim of truth they have is irrelevant because they will still be needing to have understanding imparted to them by the insightful ones. If that is the case, then why would that be limited to JWs...are the insightful ones selective in whom they impart understanding too?
33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days.
5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.
9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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15:45- 16:36
Yes, that is correct. The tribulation is where one's faith will be tested, that is why it is called the 'hour of test'. This HOT/tribulation is the period of the 8th king rule for 42-months when the 'mark' is given out. The test is to either take the 'mark' and support the 8th king or refuse the 'mark' and reject him, choosing to suffer tribulation being led captive and or killed as a result of rejecting him.
This is why it is said that those who suffer tribulation will get relief when Jesus comes. These that get relief are who passed the test of rejecting the 8th king, they/the GC are under the protective arrangement at the time when Jesus comes and those that failed the test and took the mark are outside of this tent and will receive his anger against them.
[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
1. WW3/pangs of distress>>> (6 billion people come out/survive here, it is no test of faith, no washing of robes.)
2. 42 months 8th king/GT/HOT>>> (Here now is a test for the 6 billion, take the mark and live within the new arrangement under Satan's 8th king or reject it and suffer tribulation under the 8th king but also by doing so washing your robe showing your faith in Jesus and God's kingdom to come after the 42 months.)
3. Sun,moon,stars/the sign>>> (Those that rejected the mark see this and rejoice knowing that their deliverance is near, Jesus is coming. Those that took the mark see it and are in fear wanting to hide because wrath will now be upon them, Jesus is coming.)
4. Jesus comes/revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven/Armageddon
Yes, that is correct. The tribulation is where one's faith will be tested, that is why it is called the 'hour of test'. This HOT/tribulation is the period of the 8th king rule for 42-months when the 'mark' is given out. The test is to either take the 'mark' and support the 8th king or refuse the 'mark' and reject him, choosing to suffer tribulation being led captive and or killed as a result of rejecting him.
This is why it is said that those who suffer tribulation will get relief when Jesus comes. These that get relief are who passed the test of rejecting the 8th king, they/the GC are under the protective arrangement at the time when Jesus comes and those that failed the test and took the mark are outside of this tent and will receive his anger against them.
[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
1. WW3/pangs of distress>>> (6 billion people come out/survive here, it is no test of faith, no washing of robes.)
2. 42 months 8th king/GT/HOT>>> (Here now is a test for the 6 billion, take the mark and live within the new arrangement under Satan's 8th king or reject it and suffer tribulation under the 8th king but also by doing so washing your robe showing your faith in Jesus and God's kingdom to come after the 42 months.)
3. Sun,moon,stars/the sign>>> (Those that rejected the mark see this and rejoice knowing that their deliverance is near, Jesus is coming. Those that took the mark see it and are in fear wanting to hide because wrath will now be upon them, Jesus is coming.)
4. Jesus comes/revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven/Armageddon
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I get what you're saying, Frank D.
So, how about we just say this. . . Those of whom will consist and make-up 'the Great-crowd,' will at the very least *have to be* of the same-faith as Jehovah's Witnesses. In the sense that, such ones will have to have an accurate knowledge and understanding of the 'two-hopes' - as well as, the true identities of both Jehovah God and Christ - 'Michael.'
'The Great Crowd' who comes out of the Great Tribulation - refined and cleansed, are actually together. . . a collective united. Even though, the GC will consists of a great number of individuals that come from various different backgrounds, languages and/or cultures. . . The GC will however - not be a group of persons with different ideologies or various belief-systems.
On the contrary, the Scriptures rather describe 'the Great-crowd' as a collective group of monotheistic and nontrinitarian Christians whom all share in a common belief-system, and whom all worship the same (singular)-Deity, "the One seated upon the throne - Jehovah." -Revelation 4:2-3, Revelation 7:15
For example:
As is revealed in Revelation 7:9-10, the GC mentions - whom they see as, two separate and distinct individuals; whom are both responsible for their salvation.
The first individual, is: Their God, or as the GC mentions in the verse 10 . . . 'Salvation we owe to Our God,' whom is then identified to be: "the One seated upon throne" - a description that is exclusively attributed to Jehovah God, alone. (Throughout the entire book of Revelation).
The second individual, is: The Lamb - Christ[Michael], whom is depicted in Revelation 7:17. . . as the one 'who is in the midst OF the throne.' Thus, here. . . The Great Crowd of course recognizes the Christ to be a separate and distinct entity from their God. Nonetheless, they will certainly recognize him as the 'Mighty God,' their Savior, the appointed King and their Shepherd(John 10:11; Ezekiel 34:24), whom will successfully guide them to 'springs of waters of life.'
Therefore, in conclusion. . . My point is, the GC will at the very least - have to be, of the same faith as Jehovah's Witnesses and that of course is very much clear from the Scriptures itself, and the explanation presented above.
Besides, even if such persons aren't technically 'Jehovah's Witnesses' at this present moment, they however will be "witnesses" of Jehovah God; as well as authentic followers of Christ, shortly after the 42-months have ended.
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We can't say who will choose to reject the mark when that time comes, but whatever their faith is now does not matter at the point of going into captivity, all that matters is that whatever belief/understanding they have currently, that it is enough to know not to take the mark when that time is upon them.
So, there will be a mixture of people going in (Perhaps mostly so-called Christians but a mixture, nonetheless, remember the Egyptians.), but there will also be those imparting understanding to the many at that time, so that all are of the same understanding coming out. (Keep in mind Jesus' ministry and the 2 witlessness are a 42-month period.) So, what you say is half right in that the GC 'coming out' will not be a group of persons with different ideologies or various belief-systems. But 'going in" remains to be seen.
That GC 'coming out' as you showed say: 10 “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
But also to note that the very ones that are in fear knowing they are going to be bird food say: 16 “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
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Yes, Frank D.
'Going-in' to the Great-Tribulation and perhaps during the GT-period.. Yes, there will of course be a mixture of so-called "Christians." And again, yes. . . Those having insight - Jehovah's Witnesses, will impart understanding to the many(and some of them will come to accept the truth).
However, you had mentioned above that the GC is 'made up of more than just JWs,' and that JWs will only make-up a small percentage of the overall total of the GC. . .
But, my question to you, is. . . How exactly can 'the GC be made up of more than just JWs,' if every single individual whom will be a part of "the Great-crowd," will share in the same-faith as Jehovah's Witnesses and therefore, would have became a "Jehovah's Witness(at least in faith)," upon them 'coming out' of the Great Tribulation?
This is of course, is why I suggested just to say:
"So, how about we just say this. . . Those of whom will consist and make-up 'the Great-crowd,' will at the very least *have to be* of the same-faith as Jehovah's Witnesses."
This is because, upon the GC 'coming out' of the Great Tribulation, there will not be a "mixture" of so-called Christians among the Great-crowd; but they will all rather be, of the same sort and faith - that is, of the same-faith as Jehovah's Witnesses.
With that being said. . . Honestly, your comment above just made it seem like you were suggesting that the GC would consist of all kinds of 'Christians' who would differ in faith and/or belief. (And that's just not the case.)
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JWs as known today that are associated with the WTS are not the only ones who are part of the GC. There will be a % of these JWs that are part of the GC, but it is not because of their association with the WTS now, it will be because they refused the mark and were taken captive as a result. Likewise, of 'Christians' who differ in beliefs now, those that refuse the mark will be taken captive and then will be part of the GC. It is in captivity that the GC is formed. This applies to any other faith or nonfaith, if a person refuses the mark the outcome for them is the same, they go into captivity and or are killed. This period/HOT comes upon the 6 billion that are here after the POD, it doesn't just come upon 8.5 million WTS JWs. (Wheat/sheeplike and weed/goatlike people are among the 6 billion, the field is the world not WTS.)
So, whomever among the 6 billion that rejects the 8th king and is taken into captivity, they will get their needed understanding from those with insight during that time. The end result for all who endure to the end will be that they all have the same understandings at this time and be the GC that Jehovah spreads his tent over.
The GC will all be Jehovah's witnesses so to speak, but they will not be WTS JWs, they will be JWs due to the understandings they got from the insightful ones during the captivity. Even the WTS JWs that are there are going to need understandings from the insightful ones, they don't even know that the 42 months is still to come, they are taught by the WTS that that time occurred Oct 1914 to April 1918.
Think of all different religions/beliefs now that differ, what they all have in common is they all have false incorrect teachings, this includes WTS JWs. In addition to all having that in common, they also have in common that there is a God, there is a Jesus, a heavenly kingdom, and that the UN is from Satan. Now think of individual people from such religions/beliefs in white robes but also picture on all their robes are dirty writings that say a mixture of all kinds of things. Whatever dirty writings are on them now that represents all the false incorrect teachings/understandings, these will all get washed off during the 42-month refined/cleansing wash cycle and by the end ALL will have clean plain white robes.
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